Tommy Butler, BEFORE YOU GO
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[1:04]sponsoring. I had such a nice time talking to Tommy Butler, although I feel like when I was asking
[1:09]him questions, I kept making mistakes, so excuse me, because I think I was mildly sleep to
[1:13]pry that day. Anyway, Tommy Butler was raised in Stanford, Connecticut, and has since called
[1:18]many places home, including New Hampshire, San Diego, Boston, New York City, and San Francisco.
[1:23]A graduate of Dartmouth College in Harvard Law School. He was a Peter Taylor Fellow at the Kenyon
[1:28]Review Writers Workshop, and is an alumnus of the screenwriter's colony. His first screenplay,
[1:33]Etopia, was the winner of Showtime's Tony Cox Screenplay Competition at the Nantucket Film Festival.
[1:40]His debut novel is Before You Go. Welcome, Tommy. Thanks so much for coming on Momstone. Have
[1:44]time to read books. Hi, well, thank you very much for having me. It's great to be here. Awesome.
[1:49]We were just chatting. I feel like this has been on the calendar for so long, so I'm just so
[1:54]excited to finally talk to you. I know. I mean, it does feel like time is just crawling by.
[2:00]Yeah. How has it been having a book come out now? I mean, it's coming out in August, but I feel
[2:04]like this whole pandemic, I don't know. How has it been for you? Well, you know, it's a debut,
[2:09]so I haven't been to this process before. And to go through it during COVID and the lockdowns,
[2:15]I can't even, I don't know what the normal would have been like anyway. And I can't imagine this
[2:19]as it though. It's a strange time and it's a sad time. And it's just, it's very strange for me to
[2:23]have something so important to me and so thrilling happening in the middle of something so
[2:27]terrible. I mean, just so terrible to the world. I mean, the emotions are kind of all over
[2:31]the place really. That sounds about right for basically everybody I know. I'm waiting to talk to
[2:38]somebody who's like, I feel like my emotions are totally in check and things are great. So anyway,
[2:42]good for them. No, I'm kidding. I will not find that person. Oh, I think I'm waiting. I'm holding my
[2:48]breath in other words. Never. Can you please tell listeners what before you go is about and also
[2:55]what inspired you to write it? Yeah. So before you go, I think, well, I actually can answer both
[3:00]one starting with one place. So I think what inspired me to write it and I think what it's kind
[3:04]of ultimately about, at least thematically, are three questions that I found myself asking myself as
[3:10]a human and also as a writer. The first was, why does life sometimes feel so hard even when it
[3:16]seems like it shouldn't? And the second was, is there anything we can do about it? And the third
[3:21]was if not, then what? And I found myself honestly kind of just ruining all those questions,
[3:26]again, as a writer, but also as a human. And the book started to grow out of that. What I call
[3:31]the vignettes are the interludes, which are the smaller chapters between the main narrative,
[3:36]Elliot Chances narrative. Those really started to pop up in response to those questions.
[3:41]And so I think thematically, that's what it's about. As far as the story goes, the main narrative
[3:46]is about a character named Elliot, who we start with in his childhood. And then we spend most of
[3:52]our time with him in his twenties. And it's about his struggle with those questions, not just
[3:56]I'm extent. And then just first, in Elliot's story are smaller what I call vignettes that are more
[4:02]fantastical and more fanciful about what happened before we all got here and how did it happen
[4:07]and what happens after we leave and what's happening in the future with regard to these questions.
[4:13]So, but I hope it all ties together pretty well by the end. It works. You pulled it off.
[4:19]Thank you. Thank you. How much of Elliot's childhood mirrors your own? Like, did you have a brother?
[4:25]Did you ever get teased? Did you see monsters? Like, just how much of your own life did you
[4:33]inject into this narrative? Well, the short answer is zero. It's all fiction. It's not my story.
[4:38]But, you know, certainly I stole things here or there. So, I did grow up in Connecticut,
[4:44]and I have lived in Manhattan. So, it's made it a little bit easier for me to describe things
[4:49]because I had experienced them personally. And I think, you know, emotionally, I didn't have to reach
[4:54]too far to not just happen to Elliot's story, but Sasha's and Banner's other two other main
[5:01]characters. I feel certain emotional kinship with all three of them on different levels.
[5:07]So, explain to me how you got here writing your debut novel at this point in your life.
[5:12]So, and I know you've worked on short films, and I watched your film maneuver, which was
[5:18]I did. Yeah, I thought that was really cool. Yeah, I will look at chess in a whole new way for now.
[5:24]And you went to law school. So, just give me the like quick rundown of when you did what,
[5:31]and how you ended up pursuing writing and film. And, you know, you went some award at the
[5:35]Nantucket Film Festival. So, how do we how do we get here? Yeah, it's been journey.
[5:39]And it's still it's still being a journey. So, yeah, I went to law school kind of in my 20s
[5:44]a couple years after college. And I've been practicing law for a long time. That's my job.
[5:50]That's my career. And that's how I paid my rent. So, I've been doing that for a long time.
[5:54]But writing has always been that passion. I always, I mean, I can almost say always really.
[5:59]I've been fiddling with writing in one form or another since I was a teenager.
[6:03]So, whether it started with poetry or just fanciful stuff. And then, you know, law school and
[6:10]early legal career takes up pretty much all of your brain. But I think in my early 30s,
[6:15]I started to get back into the writing a bit. And I started experimenting with longer form fiction
[6:20]and also with streamwriting. And it just kind of kept growing. Like the passion had never gone away.
[6:26]And it just kind of kept growing and growing. And I was able to start balancing my career, my legal
[6:31]career with my writing passion, which, you know, I always kind of hope to become a writing career.
[6:38]But you never count on that. You just, you just keep going in your hope. And then I started writing
[6:42]some long form fiction in my early 30s. But then I kind of wanted to streamwriting for a bit.
[6:47]And actually learned a lot about story and structure and things in that endeavor. And then
[6:52]came back into long form fiction to write this book. So, I'm really, I'm kind of doing
[6:56]both now, doing both now for a number of years. But it has been a long journey. And it's not over.
[7:01]this is hardly the end of any kind of journey. We'll see where this all goes. But I can't
[7:05]tell you how exciting it is to you after, you know, many years of kind of balancing these two things
[7:11]to have this becoming out so soon. It's amazing. It's exciting. Congratulations.
[7:17]Thank you. Awesome. And you're a really great writer. I mean, you write like a reference poetry,
[7:23]but your prose is very poetic. I feel like even the way you describe something like a
[7:28]a rainstorm or raking leaves. This is when you can tell I'm from New York City. I'm trying to find
[7:33]like a good passage here. I'm just going to read as like an example. The leaves fall in a
[7:37]mad rush, an unruly circus, a yellow orange and red, hurled down from the trees by a mutinous
[7:42]wind. It's easy to get lost in it. I stand at the center of our little front yard staring up at
[7:47]the long limb giants and the roiling cauldron of sky. My eyes filled with color of my ears with
[7:52]the sweep of air through the branches. The sharp scent of ozone heralds distant lighting. Nothing
[7:56]else exists in a long moment passes before I remember who I am or what I'm doing out here beneath
[8:01]the front edge of an autumn storm. I am Elliott Chance. I'm nine years old. I'm catching leaves with
[8:06]my brother. Like what a great introduction. Like how do you not want to like be reading? Like who is
[8:11]Elliott? What's his story? Why are we meeting about him? This is brother. And just the language.
[8:16]I mean, you really like capture scenery so well and emotion and then that's whole life and death.
[8:22]You go deep in here. This is a lot. It's a lot. It was a lot tonight. I bet. So something must have
[8:30]happened not to just delve into your private life. And I know it's not your story, but just have
[8:34]you always had this relationship with sort of philosophy in a way or pondering the end or have you
[8:41]lost somebody close to your like usually there's some like event I feel like when people are
[8:46]grappling so closely or feeling so closely, the fact that life is so finite. Like
[8:51]how did you come to this? I wouldn't say there was an event that that spurred this novel on. I mean,
[8:57]I have lost people that I've loved. Nothing, you know, people who are older, like my dad,
[9:02]nobody in a tragic, youthful accent, something like that. So, you know, I guess what you'd call more
[9:07]normal death and aging and that kind of stuff, but still breaks your heart. But I wouldn't say
[9:12]that spurred this book on. I don't know. I think it's my own experience with what I think a lot of us
[9:17]feel for any reason or no reason, which is just moments of sadness, moments of emptiness.
[9:24]So it's not, I don't mean to, I don't think it's really necessarily about death, but of course death
[9:28]is such an integral part of life. And the fact that it is finite makes it so important. But I think
[9:33]it's about that feeling, those feelings of wanting more, you know, I'm feeling like something
[9:38]might be missing. I'm pretty familiar with that. I don't know why. But I am. And I think as far as,
[9:44]pondering and I've been doing that gosh, I mean, my whole life, I arguably think too much
[9:49]and I ruminate a lot. And so whether it's writing myself or just reading philosophy and studying
[9:55]poetry and I think hopefully all those things come out.
[10:00]or at least a little bit in this book
[10:02]and I think those influences hopefully show themselves
[10:05]because they are important for me.
[10:07]That's true.
[10:08]I didn't mean to imply the whole book was about death.
[10:10]I was just trying to.
[10:11]I just feel like and perhaps it's a wrong sort of hypothesis
[10:15]that a deep understanding of, you know,
[10:18]I don't know.
[10:19]It's almost like an extra sensitivity on us to emotion
[10:21]and the way we experience life and all of that.
[10:23]And it doesn't have to come from something horrible
[10:25]happening.
[10:26]Some people are just like that.
[10:27]Yeah.
[10:28]Maybe I shouldn't have even implied.
[10:29]It's like, no, it's a totally fair question.
[10:30]And of course, I think often that is what triggers it, right?
[10:34]You lose something or someone and that triggers
[10:36]all this heartbreaking open and all these motions
[10:39]and all these thoughts and questions and ponderings.
[10:41]But for me, I guess they just come.
[10:43]I don't know why they just come anyway.
[10:45]What's it all for?
[10:46]Why are we here?
[10:47]What are we doing?
[10:47]Where are we going?
[10:48]All those things.
[10:50]Do you feel that the fact that you think about all those things?
[10:53]Does it make you make decisions differently?
[10:56]Like do you keep all that in mind
[10:58]when you're making life decisions or small decisions
[11:00]or big decisions?
[11:03]Is it front of mind or is it sort of just like hovering over you
[11:07]as a framework as a framework for kind of your life?
[11:11]I mean, that's interesting.
[11:12]I guess I don't know.
[11:14]It's probably changed.
[11:15]It probably changes back and forth.
[11:17]I think probably sometimes it's very front of mind
[11:19]and other times not at all.
[11:21]Yeah, I don't know.
[11:22]I guess we depend on which decision
[11:24]and which point in my life I was making and whether.
[11:26]But there are times where certainly,
[11:28]so silly example, but I applied to law school.
[11:32]So I spent a year in New York after college
[11:33]and I applied to law school.
[11:35]But for whatever reason, I knew I didn't want to go right away.
[11:37]I knew I needed a year, another year in myself.
[11:39]And so I deferred a year and went out to the beach
[11:42]in Southern California and lived and taught test prep
[11:45]and just really enjoyed myself for a year
[11:48]and just lived for a year.
[11:49]And that was a decision where these kinds of questions
[11:52]were very front of mind.
[11:54]I was thinking, I need to live.
[11:55]I need to live a year before I get on this train now.
[11:58]So sometimes yes, other times now it's more blindly
[12:02]reaching out in the dark for the next step.
[12:05]I feel like I'm like you and that I'm very aware.
[12:08]I feel like I've always thought about it,
[12:09]but I've had a lot of sudden deaths and tragic deaths
[12:12]and 9, 11 loss and I've just had a lot of stuff.
[12:16]But I feel for me at least it's very front of mind.
[12:18]Like there are many decisions, career decisions
[12:21]and whether to leave my merit.
[12:23]Like I have all these big decisions
[12:25]that I'm always like the only live once.
[12:27]Like, and it's very front of mind for me.
[12:30]So I'm always, I'm just like interested in how other people.
[12:33]You can't do it in like, should I go to King Collin
[12:35]before or after this podcast?
[12:36]But I mean, should I keep marketing,
[12:40]peppermint frying cookies or should I write a novel?
[12:42]That's like a totally different thing.
[12:44]Yeah, no, I'm with you.
[12:45]And I actually, I actually applaud that in you,
[12:49]but it's also kind of exhausting, right?
[12:52]I find it kind of exhausting to be constantly thinking about
[12:55]the big questions and how I should be living.
[12:57]Like that's just gets tired and so hopefully sometimes
[13:01]you're just like, oh, I'm going to do it for the hell of it.
[13:03]But I hear you, I get it.
[13:04]I mean, I think once you're on certain paths,
[13:07]as long as you like, I don't,
[13:10]I didn't mean to imply I think about it every second,
[13:12]but I feel like to get yourself and keep yourself on a path
[13:15]that's going to ultimately lead you to the life you want.
[13:18]You have to, I mean, this is so hokey now.
[13:20]Sorry, you have to like reassess every so often
[13:23]based on those terms.
[13:24]But no, I agree.
[13:26]I mean, I personally agree.
[13:27]It's an intentional life.
[13:28]You want to live with intent.
[13:30]And I mean, arguably, there are people who say,
[13:32]no, just learn what the wind carry you,
[13:34]but I'm kind of like you.
[13:35]I think everyone's different.
[13:36]I'm kind of like you.
[13:37]I think I live with more intention as well.
[13:40]So writing about depression, when you were writing this book,
[13:44]did you look to other books about people
[13:47]who had gone through periods of time,
[13:50]where they were depressed or had feelings like that,
[13:52]like Andrew Solomon, or like, you know,
[13:54]books that, you know, or groups that are very,
[13:57]even in support group and now, you know, all of that.
[13:59]And how much research versus just intuition
[14:03]and introspection, what was the balance?
[14:05]Much more the latter, much more the latter.
[14:08]And I remember it's a few years ago now
[14:10]that I remember reading things like the bell jar
[14:12]or the hours or more fictional.
[14:16]I didn't, I did certainly some research.
[14:18]There's a very powerful movie called The Bridge
[14:21]about people who killed themselves
[14:22]on the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco.
[14:24]But I didn't do heavy intense clinical research.
[14:27]And this is not, that's not what I'm trying,
[14:29]I wasn't trying to write about that.
[14:30]I mean, I'm not an expert.
[14:32]The book doesn't even use the word depression
[14:34]because I think it's taken on a clinical term
[14:35]that I don't, I'm not qualified to really speak on.
[14:38]So this is, this book is not so much about Elliot.
[14:42]I mean, he may be depressed.
[14:43]I mean, I let a doctor decide that a fictional doctor.
[14:47]But I was more interested in just the sadness
[14:49]and the emptiness he was feeling.
[14:50]Whether it's depression or not, I don't know.
[14:52]So I guess it came more from my own kind of instincts
[14:55]or feelings or other people I've known.
[14:58]But there was some research in there certainly.
[15:00]I'll stop being a psychologist for fictional characters.
[15:03]I don't know, yeah, I mean, no, it's fair, right?
[15:06]Because I diagnose, you know, anyway,
[15:10]I feel like a lot of those empty feelings.
[15:12]I mean, no, depression, I didn't go through the DSM.
[15:16]It's true for the clinic.
[15:17]Well, it's funny because it's not funny,
[15:19]but I mean, when I was little, we used to say depressed
[15:23]just to mean sad or down or having the blues.
[15:27]But I think today, it means a lot more than that.
[15:29]It's much more complicated.
[15:30]So, but no, no, I think it's fair to say,
[15:33]no, of course, colloquially, yeah, depression is,
[15:36]that's what Elliot's feeling, depressed through.
[15:38]So, have you written since this book
[15:41]is writing something you do to sort out your own feelings?
[15:44]Like, is it something you do every day for fun?
[15:46]Are you working on another project?
[15:48]Like, did your relationship to changing right after this book?
[15:51]That was like 10 questions, but...
[15:53]Yeah, that's great.
[15:55]I am writing, I am working on the next book, you know,
[15:59]intently, do my relationship change?
[16:01]No, I mean, I'm still kind of kind of cranking away
[16:04]I have been and learning and trying to grow.
[16:06]It does, you know, it's nice to finally break through.
[16:10]I mean, it's more than nice.
[16:11]It's fantastic.
[16:12]And it makes you feel great.
[16:14]And it is, it's a great vote of confidence,
[16:16]no matter what happens with the book.
[16:17]But at the same time, you don't want to let that go
[16:19]to your head.
[16:20]I want to keep learning and keep realizing how much
[16:22]I have to learn.
[16:23]And so, that's, I think, all staying the same.
[16:25]I do write, I do write personal journals
[16:29]and poetry a little bit here and there for my personal stuff,
[16:32]but not on a terribly regular basis.
[16:34]But yeah, so I'm pretty deep in the next fiction project.
[16:38]We'll see where it goes.
[16:39]Have you shown the book yet to like colleagues
[16:41]at your law firm?
[16:42]If you work at a law firm or like friends, close friends,
[16:46]anybody who was really surprised by it
[16:48]or like what if some of the reactions been?
[16:51]I mean, obviously, I'm sure they all love it.
[16:53]But I mean, was there a part of you
[16:55]that you feel like was represented in the book
[16:57]or just like thoughts and feelings or whatever
[16:59]that you feel in any way uncomfortable sharing
[17:02]or that was, or that people responded
[17:04]in a way you weren't hoping for or any of that
[17:06]are not really.
[17:07]I mean, it's only been shared at this point
[17:09]with, I don't know, a couple dozen people maybe
[17:12]because we're still early.
[17:13]And for the most part, the reaction has been amazing.
[17:15]Yeah, I, you know, again, it's, I stress that people,
[17:19]especially people close to me that's not me,
[17:21]it's not my story.
[17:22]And I think most people just focused on the, you know,
[17:25]hopefully the work of art, the work itself.
[17:28]And some people have been watching this journey of mine
[17:31]is writing journey for a long time now.
[17:33]So they are a little less surprised
[17:35]and others who haven't really seen this yet are,
[17:38]yeah, there's a few, there's some shock bait,
[17:41]some shock looks out there, which is kind of fun.
[17:44]It also is nice.
[17:45]I feel very lucky for the, for whatever failure I've had
[17:47]in the years before this, because I think some of the stuff
[17:50]I wrote earlier while I'm proud of it.
[17:53]And I'm talking more about fiction,
[17:54]I was opposed to some of the screenplays,
[17:56]but some of the fiction, you know,
[17:57]I was proud of it at the time,
[17:58]but it just wasn't quite ready.
[18:00]It just wasn't there, but you keep growing
[18:01]and keep learning and then, and then this book I really love.
[18:04]And so it's very, I'm very glad that,
[18:07]for most people, the first thing they get to see is this.
[18:10]So the reaction is so far, I've been great.
[18:12]We'll see how we'll see how it goes, but yeah.
[18:15]I feel like a lot of people are looking
[18:17]for great screenwriters now.
[18:18]I feel like for so many books,
[18:20]people are like needing screenwriters to adapt them
[18:23]and all the rest.
[18:24]But now, since you are already have a word
[18:26]when you screen play, you could just adapt your own book.
[18:29]If you pump possibly, and we had a great film agent
[18:32]who's who's pitching the book around right now.
[18:35]And we talked about it.
[18:36]I mean, I think we would love to get, you know,
[18:39]very experienced screenwriter to adapt this.
[18:41]I think it's a little,
[18:42]it's gonna be a cool challenge to adapt it.
[18:45]And I like my screenwriting.
[18:46]I'm very proud of it,
[18:47]but I'm also, I haven't been doing it for 20 years.
[18:49]So if we could get, you know,
[18:51]I can establish screenwriter to do it.
[18:52]That would be, that would be thrilling.
[18:53]Yeah.
[18:54]And just tell me the moment, like,
[18:56]when you first sold this book,
[18:57]or the first like biggest piece of great news
[19:00]related to this book.
[19:01]Like, what was that moment like,
[19:02]like did you hear about on the phone or email,
[19:04]or like, re-jumping up and down?
[19:05]Like, yeah, no, it was,
[19:08]it was head spinning, honestly.
[19:10]You know, I've been writing for a while.
[19:11]This book in particular,
[19:12]I've been working on for basically three years.
[19:15]So about a year of creation and crafting,
[19:17]and structuring it in two years of writing.
[19:19]And then I took a month off, just did nothing.
[19:24]And then I started sending out query letters.
[19:25]I didn't have any agent at the time.
[19:27]And it was head spinning because,
[19:29]I think in about four weeks,
[19:32]I have this written down somewhere.
[19:33]But I think in about four weeks,
[19:35]I went from my first call with my now agent
[19:38]to the deal with Harper.
[19:42]And it was incredibly fast for whatever reason,
[19:46]and it all went great.
[19:47]And but it was, I didn't sleep well for four weeks.
[19:50]It was just that crazy for, it was just crazy.
[19:54]So I guess, but put the answer question that,
[19:57]I mean, there were a lot of big moments in there.
[19:59]So that's what I'm going to do.
[20:00]but I'd obviously the two biggest ones were when Doug,
[20:02]my agent first got on the phone and just told me
[20:05]how much he loved it and said,
[20:06]I definitely wanna be a part of this.
[20:08]And that was enormous to me, just enormous.
[20:10]I mean, cause I, he was one of those,
[20:13]he was one of the people I really wanted to work with.
[20:15]I mean, there was a handful of people
[20:16]at the top of my list and he was one of them.
[20:18]So that was already, I don't think I jumped up and down,
[20:20]but I was, and then you know, three, four weeks later,
[20:25]when Sarah and Harper said, yeah, we won it.
[20:28]I mean, yeah, that whole month was just insane.
[20:30]Yeah, so exciting.
[20:32]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[20:34]God, I mean, there's so much right,
[20:35]but I guess if I had to distill it and be piffy,
[20:38]I would say at least for me,
[20:40]what's been really important to me at a high level
[20:42]is to keep learning and keep persisting.
[20:46]And I can't tell you how important
[20:48]that's been for me and my journey.
[20:49]I mean, you don't have to be that piffy.
[20:51]You could expand a little bit.
[20:53]Well, this is, there's so much.
[20:54]I mean, I think, you know, I wrote something years ago
[20:56]and then I really love, but years later,
[20:58]like I couldn't, I realized it's so green.
[21:01]I mean, so I think keep learning.
[21:03]And I don't have a formal MFA.
[21:05]So my learning was through, it was informal,
[21:08]some very great, some great writing workshops,
[21:10]some great writing seminars,
[21:12]but I just kept doing that and kept doing that.
[21:15]And I also kept learning the way I have a mental life,
[21:17]which is through a book.
[21:18]I'll explain on that by saying there are two key books
[21:20]that I think that I can share with you,
[21:22]that that for me, they're just very critical.
[21:25]One is the Art of Fiction by John Gardner.
[21:27]And then the other is actually more,
[21:29]it's focused on screenwriting,
[21:31]but it's really a brand new story.
[21:32]It's called Story by Robert McKee.
[21:35]And those two books had a profound influence
[21:37]on how I write how I tell stories.
[21:39]And it was a matter of, you know, continuing to learn
[21:42]and never thinking that I knew what I was doing.
[21:44]And then the persistence, you just can't,
[21:45]you can't say it enough, you can say it three times
[21:47]because I think for a lot of people
[21:50]I know trying to create, including me now,
[21:54]you just, you're gonna continually hit doubt
[21:56]and just places where you don't know what you're doing,
[21:59]you don't know how to fix something.
[22:00]And you just keep going, yeah.
[22:02]That's great.
[22:04]Well, thank you.
[22:05]Thank you so much for coming on Momstone.
[22:07]I have time to read books.
[22:08]Thank you for this amazing book.
[22:10]So beautifully written, so thought for boating.
[22:13]And I'm really excited to see it launch into the world.
[22:16]Oh, thank you.
[22:17]I mean, reading for you.
[22:18]Well, thank you.
[22:19]Thanks so much.
[22:20]It's great to be here.
[22:22]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[22:24]Momstone have time to read books.
[22:25]If you liked this episode, please follow me
[22:28]on Instagram at zibi Owens
[22:30]and at momstone have time to read books
[22:32]and sign up for my mailing list at zibi Owens.com
[22:36]so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[22:38]Thanks a lot.
[22:39]This episode has been sponsored by the helm.
[22:42]The helm.co, a lifestyle brand committed
[22:45]to elevating, investing, and female entrepreneurs
[22:47]with tons of products by women founders,
[22:50]definitely go check them out.
[22:51]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[22:54]for the sound editing.
[22:55]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:57]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[23:00]Thanks for listening.
[23:01]You can always email me at zibi at zibi Owens.com.