Chandler Baker, THE WHISPER NETWORK
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast.
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[1:00]that, which was a very, very nice of them. Anyway, I hope you enjoy and thank you to the
[1:04]Helm for sponsoring. I had such a good time talking to Chandler Baker, who is the author of the
[1:09]New York Times Bestseller Whisper Network, which was a Reese's Book Club pick. I literally had like
[1:14]50 quotes printed out that I wanted to talk to her about and felt like I was just rambling, trying
[1:19]to get them all in, which of course I didn't buy it. Her book Whisper Network spoke to me and like
[1:23]anybody who's ever tried to balance sort of work in mom life and all the rest or just mom life,
[1:29]not that it's adjust. But anyway, I had so much to talk to her about. Chandler lives in Austin
[1:33]with her husband and children and works as a corporate attorney. She's also the author of five
[1:38]young adult novels and Whisper Network is actually her adult debut. So enjoy our conversation.
[1:43]Welcome, Chandler. Thanks so much for coming on Monster. I have time to read books.
[1:47]Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. I am excited to talk to you for so many
[1:52]different reasons. One, your book obviously so much to talk about. This whole working mom chorus,
[1:59]I can't wait to delve into. But two, on your Instagram, like I feel like we share so many
[2:04]favorite books. Like I was like everything you were like showing a picture of. I'm like,
[2:09]that one too. Yes, that one. So anyway, I was like, I love when I cross paths and so many who
[2:14]I feel like it's similar book taste and all the rest. So well, I'm sure, I mean, how many books do
[2:20]you try to read a year? Do you have like a number? I mean, I don't have an exact number. I don't
[2:27]finish every book anymore. At least like 200, I would say 150. I'm doing seven episodes a week,
[2:34]although I'm going to slow down. I can't finish them all, as I said, but some are children's books.
[2:38]So some are middle grade, some are advice. Yeah. How many novels? I'd say, I don't know, 150 to 100,
[2:46]100, or at least prepare for them. Yeah. So, do you have any books? Do you think you read a year?
[2:51]Oh, I go for 30. So not nearly as well read, but this is my, this is what I do now. I didn't
[2:57]use to read this many books. Like for fun, I wouldn't have read this many books. I didn't have time.
[3:02]It's hard to find time to read. But we do. But we do. We have to.
[3:08]So the whisper network is now coming out in paperback, which is really exciting. Tell me about,
[3:13]I read a lot about how you decided to write this, the way in which you wrote it, which is so interesting.
[3:18]Tell me about the writing process and what made you want to tell this particular story?
[3:23]Sure. I mean, before this, I had been a young adult writer. So I've been writing for teens.
[3:27]And I think that I started writing for teens because I started writing kind of seriously in college.
[3:34]And I was much closer to a teen myself. And also it was kind of this Renaissance time period
[3:41]of young adult literature. It was like, you know, John Green and Gail Foreman and all these
[3:46]great people were coming out. So I was reading a ton of that. And then sort of fast forward to
[3:53]write before I started whisper network. I was becoming really involved in my own book club. We
[3:57]were reading a lot of women's fiction. So you're reading a lot of thrillers. And I think it's kind
[4:00]of natural that your ideas marinate in the books you're being exposed to. So, you know, I sort of had
[4:07]this idea of almost the title whisper network. It was, you know, right after the shitting medium
[4:14]and list came out. And as a lawyer, I was thinking a lot about the ethics of that list. And what
[4:21]was the role of due process? Was there any role of due process? What were people's damages? So I was
[4:26]very curious about that. And of course, I don't know about you. But every time I was together with
[4:31]my girlfriends, we would find ourselves talking about the need to movement and kind of what happened?
[4:36]What have you experienced? How have you responded to those experience? How do you wish you have
[4:41]responded to that experience? How do you relate? How do you not relate to the women coming forward?
[4:46]So all those were kind of just swirling together when I got the idea to try to write a book about
[4:55]my industry in particular, which I was a corporate lawyer. And I've been seeing a lot of stuff coming
[5:00]out in Hollywood. And if you're other industries, I hadn't seen a lot in sort of the lawyer
[5:04]finance type space. And I knew that that was something that I could write well about and with
[5:11]authority. So then I started relating it to my experience as a working mother and broadening it to
[5:20]not just working motherhood, but what are the particularities of women's experience in the workplace
[5:26]in general, which felt like it was very much centered around me too at the moment. But I think that
[5:32]there are so many other sort of challenges that women can relate to. And a lot of people had this
[5:39]feeling of like, okay, you're seeing sexual harassment. You're seeing that's a part of our daily
[5:44]lives. But wait, wait, while we have your attention, I want you to see all these other things that
[5:49]are really tough about being a working woman right now. So I think the first thing, the first line
[5:55]I wrote in the book was we fell asleep with the heat of laptops burning our thighs. And that was
[6:00]the first line I wrote in the book. And that really kind of set the tone for me to write the rest
[6:06]of the book and explore these issues. And of course, I wanted to do it in like a juicy murder
[6:12]mystery type of way so that it was fun. It was very cathartic in a lot of ways.
[6:19]I bet. It's like you combined every element of successful fiction into one book. It's great. Like
[6:25]you have the working mom, but not even just the corporate mom. I mean, like I don't work in an
[6:31]office. I don't work in an institution the way you have it here. And like the pressure of senior
[6:36]partners and all the rest of it. But just the competing demands of kids and work in any form. And
[6:43]even just like getting through the day, you just like put you made anybody who would read this book
[6:48]feel completely understood and validated. And it was clear that you knew this so well. I mean,
[6:55]you weren't like somebody coming from the outside in like, oh, like, let me analyze working motherhood.
[6:59]It was like all about like Moana and like the exact things that like, I went through myself.
[7:06]I'm like, oh, thank you for putting this in a book. And the course all the elements of the story
[7:12]itself. And even like the format, even like the smattering of emails and transcripts. I don't know,
[7:18]it was just so great. It was such a, I'm not surprised it was like an instant bestseller and all the
[7:22]rest of them. Yeah, thank you. Yes, I felt very deep in it in the working motherhood thing. At the
[7:28]time, I was writing it. I mean, I still am now in a different way. I don't work full time as a lawyer
[7:32]anymore. So like you, it's changed a little bit. How like the different pressures, but I still
[7:39]feel sort of the push pull that you're scribing. And now I just had another baby. So
[7:44]I guess I'm in it again. But you raise so many interesting issues, like both about women's roles
[7:53]in general and also all that sexual harassment, the whole both areas together. So there was one
[7:59]passage I was just hoping to read about secrets, which I feel like is such a theme to the book. But
[8:05]we had been programmed to trade in secrets or leading deodorant brand promise not to tell.
[8:09]Our magazine covers hocked the secrets to clearer skin, better hair toned legs and longer
[8:14]orgasms. Our mothers passed down recipes with secret ingredients, even our feminism, second wave
[8:20]couch as it was in our feminine, mystique felt purposefully smartfully veiled in secrecy.
[8:25]Our motto had long been, keep it between us. And we did for generations. And then you continue
[8:30]to then said, we started to wonder by whispering whose secrets were we keeping anyway hours or
[8:35]theirs whose interest did our silence ultimately protect the answer came to us gradually.
[8:42]So great. Yeah, I'm very proud of that passage I took me forever. You know, it's kind of what
[8:51]caps off the book. And it was kind of the last thing I did. And I had to go to a hotel and I stayed
[8:57]by myself for a night while my husband watched our daughter. And I finally got it.
[9:05]They felt really good. Wow. So yeah, tell me more about how you in the process of being a working
[9:10]mother as a lawyer. You also pulled off writing this book. So it was like so meta. You did like
[9:16]everything at once. How did you do it? When did you find the time? Tell me of the whole narrative of
[9:22]that? Yeah, I mean, I had some practice about at it because like I said, I've been writing YA novels for
[9:30]for some time before and working as a lawyer. So I've been sort of good about finding those little
[9:37]nooks of time. I always set a timer for 15 minutes. And if I have 15 minutes that I can avoid
[9:44]looking at my email or looking at the internet, I will just, you know, go after it those 15 minutes.
[9:50]So, you know, I would really have to create time. So sometimes it would be like, okay, I'm
[9:55]going to drive to the office. I'm going to drive to the law firm. I'm not going to listen to a podcast.
[9:59]I'm not going to listen to a podcast. I'm not going to listen to a podcast. I'm not going to listen to a
[9:59]video. I'm not going to listen to a podcast. I'm not going to listen to a podcast. I'm not going to listen to a podcast.
[10:00]I'm not gonna listen to the radio.
[10:02]I'm just gonna think about what I need to do
[10:05]for the day, writing wise.
[10:07]And I'm gonna use that time in my brain
[10:09]and that way when I sit down on my desk,
[10:11]I'll take 15 minutes, I'll get it out.
[10:13]And hopefully it'll be really productive
[10:16]and sometimes it is, sometimes it's not,
[10:18]but then of course there's the writing at lunch
[10:21]while you're scarfing food down at your desk.
[10:25]And then just trying to shift around my lawyer work
[10:29]if there were things that didn't take
[10:31]as much brain power, I might do those after bedtime
[10:34]for the kids and shift a little bit of time
[10:37]forward for my writing and sneak that in
[10:39]because that's very brain intensive.
[10:43]So it was really about just finding those pockets
[10:45]of time and taking advantage of them.
[10:47]I always say you can get a lot more done in 15 minutes
[10:49]than you think you can with the right amount of focus.
[10:52]Although I also understand not everybody writes that way
[10:54]and not everybody can write that way.
[10:57]I just happen to be able to.
[10:58]So it's been very much daily diligence for me
[11:02]as opposed to binge writing.
[11:04]And then of course there has been a few times
[11:07]where I've gone to the hotel or something like that
[11:10]when I really had to knock something out
[11:12]and I've been very lucky to be able to do that.
[11:15]But yeah, I mean, just trying to, when I get ideas,
[11:19]I either write them on my phone or write them
[11:21]in my notebook that I have dedicated to the project.
[11:23]And then when I'm at my computer,
[11:26]I really just tried to hit it hard
[11:28]during those 15 minutes breaks.
[11:30]So how do you, when you know you have 15 minutes,
[11:33]do you have, and you have those times in the car
[11:35]when you're plotting it out?
[11:37]Did you already have like a master plan for everything?
[11:40]And you were just trying to analyze like one particular slice?
[11:43]Or did you, was that also part of figuring out the outline
[11:47]or what comes next plot-wise?
[11:48]Like how spontaneous versus planned
[11:51]was the whole trajectory of the book?
[11:55]You know, in writing, people usually say they're plotters
[11:58]or they're panzers, meaning they fly by the seat
[12:00]of their pants.
[12:01]And I'm sort of, I think, a recovering pantser
[12:03]because my deadlines are getting so tight
[12:05]that I'm trying to do a little bit more plotting.
[12:08]And I sold this on proposal.
[12:10]So meaning I didn't sell it on the entire manuscript.
[12:12]I sold it on a synopsis and some pages.
[12:16]So I did have a pretty detailed synopsis,
[12:19]but a lot of times when you get into the writing
[12:22]of the book, you realize that things need to change.
[12:24]So, you know, the entire ending of the book changed
[12:27]from what I sold it on.
[12:28]And so I kind of knew where I was going.
[12:31]I had a road map, but I found that also I was kind of going
[12:36]by like the headlights of a car.
[12:38]Like I could only see so far in front of me.
[12:40]So I would think about pieces as they came.
[12:43]And I would have my, you know, at certain points,
[12:46]I remember sitting and I couldn't see the book anymore, right?
[12:49]It just gets so big that you can't see it.
[12:52]And I have, you know, a corkboard.
[12:54]And I was like writing down note cards
[12:57]and actually physically trying to be tactile about it
[13:00]and rearranging different plot points
[13:02]because I've got three different point of view characters
[13:05]and you want them to come,
[13:06]you want them to feel somewhat even and four before.
[13:11]You want them to feel somewhat even.
[13:16]And, you know, it's really tough to keep that in your head.
[13:19]So it's a variety of different ways
[13:22]to kind of sort of beat the system
[13:25]and how to get it plotted and take advantage of those times.
[13:28]So with your sort of commentary on all the things
[13:33]that are expected of a working woman, right?
[13:35]Everything down from getting your highlights done regularly,
[13:38]getting to the gym and like all the things
[13:40]that like maybe people don't talk about
[13:42]but are expected, you were like,
[13:43]look at the headshots on the website of the law firms.
[13:46]Like you have to somehow get that done
[13:48]but not talk about it.
[13:49]And just it has to be included in the day to day.
[13:53]And what should we like take away from that?
[13:55]Like should women not have to do that?
[13:57]Should they be rewarded for it in a way?
[14:00]Like hey, you pulled all that off?
[14:02]Like where can we go with that?
[14:04]I mean, your analysis of it was so spot on.
[14:08]But like now what?
[14:09]Like you're right.
[14:10]Like now what?
[14:12]Like what should we do with all this?
[14:15]It's a miseration.
[14:16]That's such a good question.
[14:18]I struggle with it so much too.
[14:20]I mean, I find myself struggling with it right now.
[14:23]Post baby weight.
[14:24]And like I've got other things to do.
[14:25]And yet I also buy into some idea
[14:29]that I'm supposed to be attacking this problem
[14:33]and it takes time and it's something to add to my day
[14:35]when I don't really have time.
[14:37]And yet I can't unhook my brain from it
[14:40]the way I want to unhook my brain from it.
[14:42]I can't unhook my brain from wanting to get highlights.
[14:45]And I'm like, is that, where is that coming from?
[14:49]I think the thing that bothers me most about the problem
[14:53]is like is men's perception and I often feel like men
[14:58]don't want to listen to women.
[15:00]They don't like looking at in a certain way.
[15:02]Like already in the book has this observation.
[15:05]And I think that's where they intersect.
[15:08]They, like men want to see put together,
[15:12]whatever that means, you know,
[15:13]they'd like to see dressed up at like,
[15:15]and then dress whatever.
[15:16]Not all men, I'm sure.
[15:18]But there is a feeling that like you said,
[15:20]it's expected in some way that it's part of the job
[15:24]to be pulled together and some part of the beauty narrative.
[15:29]So I would like men to rewire their brains.
[15:33]What?
[15:35]Does that sound feasible?
[15:37]You know, I think it's, you know,
[15:38]I hear a lot of women that are like, okay,
[15:43]we have to raise our sons to be better allies.
[15:47]We have to make them more conscious of these things.
[15:50]And that's the way forward.
[15:52]And then I hear other women at the same book clubs
[15:55]that I visited or whatever, saying, well,
[15:56]we can't wait until everybody's sons are grown up.
[15:58]Like that's way too long.
[16:00]So, you know, I think more immediately,
[16:05]I would love to just see more women at the top
[16:09]and more women not opting out of the workforce
[16:13]before they reach that level.
[16:16]And my sort of pet idea is that
[16:21]it comes back to paternity leave.
[16:23]And I feel like men need to take paternity leave
[16:25]because we just create this system where women
[16:28]are the defaults in their home and their lives
[16:30]become like so untenable,
[16:33]that the only way they can think to fix them
[16:35]is that they're not gonna get rid of their kids.
[16:36]Those things aren't gonna go away.
[16:38]So they take themselves out of the workforce.
[16:41]And until we see, I think, a lot of women,
[16:44]a lot of women, as many women at the top,
[16:47]as men, I don't know that we're gonna see that culture
[16:49]or sea change that we need to make some of those things
[16:53]more normalized to really shift the expectations
[16:57]of women in the workplace.
[16:58]All right, well, if you find the rewiring, you know,
[17:00]that can help you just post it on Instagram
[17:04]you know, I actually found it really interesting.
[17:07]You talked at one of the characters now,
[17:09]I'm forgetting who it was,
[17:10]but somebody was outlining her sort of dream man, right?
[17:13]And you had this whole paragraph of like lists of things.
[17:16]And one of the things that you said when you were saying
[17:18]like could this dream man have this quality
[17:20]was that if you recommended a book to him,
[17:24]he wouldn't need another person to validate it.
[17:26]He would just go ahead and read it cause he said so.
[17:28]Oh my gosh, the father's me so much.
[17:34]Obviously, it's something that I experience with my husband,
[17:37]but also with like my friends' husbands.
[17:41]And I think I'm not recommending a book
[17:42]that I don't think you would like.
[17:44]I'm not recommending something that's outside
[17:47]of what I feel your tastes are.
[17:48]And I read a lot.
[17:49]So just listen to me.
[17:51]And then it'll come back like two years later,
[17:52]like have you heard of this book?
[17:55]Yeah, yeah, I have.
[17:57]Have heard of it.
[17:59]Do you experience that or do people listen to you fully now?
[18:02]I mean, no one in my family listens to me.
[18:04]It's your husband or reader.
[18:07]My husband is not a reader.
[18:09]Sometimes I read books out loud to him
[18:11]that I think he'll really love.
[18:12]Occasionally he'll listen to audio books.
[18:14]Yeah.
[18:15]So it's not so much that he doesn't take my advice.
[18:18]I actually, and this is like embarrassing to him it.
[18:20]He is actually, and it's not usually about books,
[18:22]but he gives me advice, and he has to say it,
[18:25]and I have to wait maybe sometimes in years.
[18:27]Open him up, I take his advice.
[18:30]And he's like, why when like Joe Schmo comes in
[18:32]and says like, you should get a bookshelf there
[18:34]and I've been saying it for three months.
[18:36]Like why now?
[18:36]Because like that person said it was a good idea.
[18:39]And I'm like, I don't know.
[18:40]Sometimes I just need multiple people
[18:42]to say the same thing, but it is frustrating.
[18:44]Yeah.
[18:45]So maybe that's a little bit built into all of us.
[18:47]No, there's just something wrong with me, probably.
[18:49]You know?
[18:50]Perfect, man.
[18:51]But no, I just thought that was so funny
[18:53]because I was like, clearly she said this happened in some way.
[18:56]You also wrote about time so well.
[18:59]And just, this is something obviously that I have thought
[19:02]about so much from down to the name of my podcast
[19:04]to just like everything I do is about
[19:07]how to help women who are so time-starved, right?
[19:10]Like we're all, there's just not enough time
[19:13]for us to have kids and be smart women
[19:16]and pursue goals and careers and stay fit.
[19:19]And like there's just no, it's like impossible.
[19:22]The math doesn't add up.
[19:23]Like you said, none of us had time for anything it seemed.
[19:26]If time was currency, we were all going broke.
[19:29]And then he went on to say like sometimes we'd see a book
[19:31]hit the New York Times bestseller list with a promising title.
[19:33]Like, I don't know how she does it or overwhelmed.
[19:35]And for a few weeks, we'd pass it between us trying
[19:37]to use the advice like a trendy new diet plan.
[19:40]But for us, there were, how did the pundits put it
[19:42]institutional roadblocks?
[19:44]And then you say how time was a finite resource.
[19:47]So who should get the most of us?
[19:48]Those who of us who were moms had the most compelling argument
[19:51]consider the children.
[19:52]But what about the rest?
[19:54]So it's this whole notion of like, how do we do it
[19:57]with time that won't expand?
[19:59]Like, you know.
[20:00]I don't know that there's an answer to that,
[20:01]but I love that you address it.
[20:04]Yeah, actually, when I first had my daughter that book,
[20:08]I know how she does it really did help me,
[20:11]but so it really did help me find extra time.
[20:14]I mean, they thought of creative solutions,
[20:16]like, you know, just not going into the office
[20:18]as long as you could get your work done
[20:20]and not asking permission for that from people
[20:22]because people don't want to hire up
[20:24]so necessarily want to make that decision
[20:26]or feel like they're making that decision broadly.
[20:27]So kind of if you have the ability
[20:29]like me as a way or just to not do it,
[20:31]then, okay, two days a week,
[20:34]you're not going to go into the office
[20:35]and you're not going to get dressed for that day, right?
[20:38]You're just going to be in your scrubs for the day
[20:41]and you've saved your commute time
[20:42]and you've saved your time to do your hair
[20:44]and put on makeup and get ready
[20:45]and okay, you've found yourself an extra hour and a half
[20:49]or something out of the day.
[20:51]A lot of people, though, understandably,
[20:52]I think find that thought really depressing.
[20:55]Like, okay, you have to scrap for this little time.
[20:58]Like gobbling up any extra 15 minutes in your answer
[21:03]is just it's on women.
[21:05]It's incumbent upon women to figure it out.
[21:09]And I think that's where some of the frustration comes
[21:11]is that it doesn't feel necessarily
[21:13]that there's a counter part in gender politics
[21:16]to that point.
[21:18]And it seems like we are the ones that are tasked
[21:21]with figuring out our time and that looks like multitasking
[21:26]and that looks like letting part things
[21:29]that would make us happy or feel relaxed,
[21:33]letting those things go.
[21:34]And I haven't totally found a answer for that right now.
[21:37]I'm writing a book sort of about the division
[21:40]of domestic labor and dual income families.
[21:43]So it's very much on my mind right now.
[21:45]Non-fiction or fiction?
[21:47]Fiction, fiction, yeah.
[21:48]So yeah, so it was very much on my mind
[21:50]but I don't have a solid answer other than
[21:53]sometimes those books can be helpful
[21:55]but I don't think it should just be a female problem.
[21:58]That's true.
[21:59]No, yeah, I mean, I feel like every, I mean, I don't know.
[22:02]I thought maybe that the quarantine
[22:03]when we were all home would make things easier in a way, right?
[22:07]That it would take all the, at least like the running around.
[22:10]I don't know about you, like I'd live in New York City
[22:12]and there was just, there's always running around
[22:15]and racing and logistics and I have four kids.
[22:17]So like all that, you know, just maybe if we were
[22:19]just in one place, it could be like a throwback
[22:21]to a little house in the prairie and like, you know.
[22:24]But time still evaporates.
[22:26]Like there's still not enough time.
[22:27]So I don't know, would you have found a shift in that
[22:30]or has it helped or heard or?
[22:31]I think I thought that it would make it more visible
[22:35]sort of the work women do.
[22:38]Like I thought it would make it more tangible,
[22:41]the push pull of women working and trying to mother
[22:46]and take care of the house.
[22:47]I thought that that would help.
[22:49]And I think in some ways it has in my personal households
[22:53]but I've read a lot of think pieces about how it's just
[22:58]made it maybe a little bit more obvious,
[23:00]but actually more has fallen on women
[23:02]as we've had to start homeschooling
[23:04]and all these different things
[23:05]and that those still seem to be largely statistically
[23:10]born by women and a lot of people are comparing it,
[23:15]especially if school doesn't start in the fall
[23:17]as women having to take like almost another maternity leave
[23:21]and the way that can set your career back.
[23:24]And that's really disheartening to hear, I think.
[23:27]So but certainly when the quarantine started
[23:30]I did kind of enjoy the family time and the simplicity
[23:33]and we were like playing charades and really making an effort
[23:36]to make our days different.
[23:38]Now I think some of that novelty has faded all.
[23:42]I didn't mean to say I didn't enjoy the family time.
[23:45]I did.
[23:45]I mean, there were definitely some perks
[23:46]to the situation that was led by sort of fear
[23:50]and self protection, but I don't know.
[23:53]I just felt like I didn't find swaths of time
[23:57]that I expected to uncover in some way, but anyway.
[24:01]Definitely not.
[24:02]I mean, in time just goes right now, I think.
[24:05]Yeah, so true.
[24:06]So are you how close are you to finishing this next book
[24:09]and what else do you have on the docket coming up for you?
[24:12]It will come out July 2021.
[24:14]So a year from now, so I'm sort of finishing up.
[24:18]I have a deadline July 15th and finishing up
[24:22]like sort of my second round revisions on that manuscript
[24:25]and I'm excited about it.
[24:27]And then what else?
[24:29]Oh, I just sold a young adult book
[24:30]that we haven't announced yet and that will come out
[24:32]next year as well.
[24:34]So I'm saving.
[24:35]And this is yeah.
[24:36]Yeah, awesome.
[24:38]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[24:40]Ooh, I guess my favorite advice is find friends,
[24:46]find a community.
[24:48]I have another author that we met online
[24:54]and we have since become real-life friends.
[24:56]She lives in LA and we start out every day
[24:59]and I email her my goals for the day
[25:02]and she emails her goals just what you want to accomplish
[25:04]every week, say we do it.
[25:06]And at the end of the day, we check in again
[25:08]and see if we accomplish that.
[25:10]And I just think it's nice to sort of create
[25:13]some normal scene writing, make it feel
[25:16]in some ways a little bit more task oriented
[25:20]and not so huge as writing a novel
[25:23]and also writing can be so solitary.
[25:26]And I just think you really need some people
[25:28]to share it with that you can tell each other your struggles
[25:31]and of course now by now our emails have evolved
[25:34]that we're talking about what we're doing as moms today
[25:37]and what we're doing with our styles and all those things
[25:40]that we still have that and we've kept it up for,
[25:43]I don't know, six years now.
[25:44]Wow, that's amazing, like a writing buddy.
[25:47]Yeah, it's great.
[25:49]Yes, that's awesome.
[25:50]Highly recommend.
[25:52]Excellent.
[25:53]Well, thank you, Chandler.
[25:54]I feel like I am going to be thinking about you
[25:57]at all different stages of the day after reading
[26:00]like all the commentary on mom life, right?
[26:02]Just even this morning like writing my kids a little note
[26:05]for their pretend camp, which is really just like them
[26:08]in the backyard, like have fun at camp
[26:09]and I'm thinking of myself, you know,
[26:11]when you read about it in the book how, you know,
[26:13]moms, then the perfectionism of having to write things
[26:15]on that.
[26:16]I don't know, I just feel like, at least I feel like
[26:18]just super understood by you so thanks.
[26:21]Thank you, what a compliment.
[26:23]I know I was, I had to pump for the first time
[26:26]because quarantine means I had just been with my son
[26:29]and I haven't had to and I had to pump
[26:31]and I was like, oh, Grace from the book.
[26:34]Yeah, I'm like, here I am again pumping,
[26:37]which I think is the worst part of new momhood.
[26:39]But yes, I know it hits us all, right?
[26:42]Yes.
[26:43]I could do a whole nother podcast on the pumping chronicles.
[26:46]But I won't.
[26:48]I'll spare you.
[26:49]Anyway, anyway, well, thank you so much.
[26:52]Thanks for coming on mom's no time to read books
[26:54]and thanks for your book.
[26:55]Thank you so much.
[26:56]I really appreciate it.
[26:58]Okay, have a great day.
[26:59]Thank you.
[27:00]Bye, bye.
[27:02]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[27:04]Moms don't have time to read books.
[27:05]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[27:09]at zivioens and at moms don't have time to read books
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[27:18]Thanks a lot.
[27:19]This episode has been sponsored by the helm,
[27:21]the helm.co, a lifestyle brand committed
[27:25]to elevating, investing, and female entrepreneurs
[27:27]with tons of products by women founders
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[27:31]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[27:34]for the Sound Editing.
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[27:37]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[27:40]Thanks for listening.
[27:41]You can always email me at zivioens.com.
[27:44]Mm.