Allison Winn Scotch, CLEO MCDOUGAL REGRETS NOTHING
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:12]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast. If you like what
[0:16]you hear, please follow me on Instagram at zippyowens and also at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
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[0:51]but anyway, rockets of awesome is amazing. Go to rocketsofawesome.com slash books, and the discount code is
[0:59]books, and it will be live August 1st, and I hope you enjoy it, and I'll be doing the box right
[1:04]along with you. My conversation with Allison Winscotch became honestly just like a talk with a close
[1:10]girlfriend, as many of my podcasts do, but this one was particularly so, so you might feel like
[1:16]you're just eavesdropping on a call between friends, but we did talk a lot about the book, too,
[1:20]and all the rest. But anyway, Allison is from Charlottesville, Virginia, and Seattle. She went to Penn,
[1:27]the University of Pennsylvania with a BA in Honors History and concentration in marketing
[1:31]from the Wharton School of Business. She currently lives in LA and is an author. She has written
[1:37]eight novels, the most recent of which is Cleo McDougall regrets nothing, and some of her books
[1:43]have been optioned for film, which we will talk about in our interview. Welcome Allison. Thanks
[1:47]for coming on mom's turn. I have time to read books. Thanks for having me. Allison and I just went
[1:51]through 20 minutes of technical issues, and she's been very patient with me, so thank you.
[1:56]You came with me with this difficult to get on mom.
[2:01]So your new book, let's talk about Cleo. Tell listeners what the book is about and what
[2:07]inspired you to write it. So Cleo McDougall is a young ambitious senator, and she is sort of the
[2:15]anointed one to run for president. And before she does, or before she can, her best friend from
[2:22]high school writes a really skating personal op-ed about her that goes viral. And she has kept a
[2:28]list of all her regrets for most of her life, and she is forced to look back and figure out how
[2:34]to make amends if she can't make amends, and if she wants to make amends before she can sort of step
[2:38]forward. So that's the synopsis. It stemmed from, you know, I tried really hard. It's not a political
[2:46]book like I want to make that clear, but it certainly is a book about being a woman in this
[2:52]particular moment in time, I think, or at least that's what I was aspiring to. I was working on
[2:57]a different one that sort of echoed the same themes, and it just wasn't working. And I can't even
[3:03]remember what the lightning bolt was that led me to Cleo, but it just became very clear that I
[3:08]had to set that book aside. And she just, I just, I literally woke up one day and I remember it was
[3:15]actually watching Sam Elliott on like, I want to say Jimmy Kimmel, and his daughter was named Cleo.
[3:21]And I was like, that's essentially not powerful name. And I went to bed that night, and I woke up,
[3:25]and I was like, this is what you need. And so that's how it started. And I didn't really think it
[3:29]was anything. And I wrote like 50 pages and I sent it to my agent and I was like, I don't really think
[3:33]this is working, but at least it's a diversion from my other book, which really wasn't working. And
[3:38]she's like, no, it's working great. So I just kept going. And that was that. Wow. So, you know,
[3:43]we're not. When you like feel the least connect, you know, devoted to something, that's when
[3:50]like inspiration can really come. I don't know. But I didn't realize until I read the book that
[3:54]her dad is the one who had inspired her to keep this list of regrets. And that it was an ongoing
[3:59]list from from when she was much younger prior to her parents passing way, which I feel like it's
[4:05]not a spoiler because it was so early in the book. And if that's okay. And that there were like
[4:08]over 200 regrets, weren't there like 230 or something like the 233? Well, that's what I wanted it to
[4:14]I wanted it to sort of be outlandish. Like the notion of somebody actually acquiring, I mean,
[4:21]look, we all have like small regrets, maybe some of us said bigger regrets. But the notion of
[4:25]really tracking that spoke to sort of the underlying. I mean, not like psychosis, but like who
[4:33]really does that? Like she's very rigid. She's a perfectionist, but she's made all of these both big
[4:37]and small mistakes along the way. And I thought that made her more intriguing as opposed to just
[4:43]like, well, like it's funny, remember if there was the other day and we were up, we actually went
[4:47]out to dinner. And my son was like, what are your biggest regrets and accomplishments? And I
[4:51]can name like three big regrets. Not something like, I'm not somebody who looks back, but like,
[4:56]I was like, yeah, I really wish that I had gone abroad in college instead of staying back for my
[5:01]stupid call of boyfriend. My regret. But the notion of having like 233, like I just, I felt like
[5:10]that made it more interesting. So totally. I feel like though, if I knew I was keeping a list,
[5:15]like let's say I started one today, probably each week there's something I regret. So it's like
[5:19]right. I mean, like should have gotten on Skype totally. Yeah. Well, the small should have had cash
[5:25]to two whomever. And then some of them were bigger should have gotten to Paris instead of staying
[5:30]at college for my stupid boyfriend, like one of that math. So yeah, I mean, I just thought
[5:37]it made it interesting. I didn't want it to be like, oh, I have 10 regrets. So that's where it came
[5:42]from. And I, as I played around with it, I mean, I think I really fascinated there were like
[5:47]just writing in like 400 and then I was like, that seems outlandish. And this felt like a reasonable
[5:53]but still a little bit preposterous number. So that's where I ended up. And I know that Clio
[5:59]wanted to run for president. But as I was reading, I was like, I can't believe she even was,
[6:03]she became a senator. Like, I feel like there's more of a microscope maybe now or I don't know.
[6:09]I feel like even getting any sort of elected official position requires such a deep dive into your
[6:14]personal life. For sure. And, you know, obviously this moment in time, a lot of us are more dialed
[6:21]into politics. So I felt like I had a deeper understanding of the scrutiny. But I tried to start out
[6:27]small, like she ran for a Congress woman, where I don't know. Like, I don't know that much about
[6:33]my Congress man. Like I voted for him. But you know what I mean? Like, I don't know how much
[6:37]you're about as personal life. So I felt like then it could slowly escalate. And by the time
[6:40]you're on a national scale or stage, I mean, it's bananas. And that's sort of what she experiences.
[6:48]And then of course, she's also a single mom. So there's a whole conflict with her son or not
[6:53]conflict. But how are you a public figure while raising kids? And, you know, how does that affect
[6:59]your relationships with them? And everything about that. So, you know, I did speak to some people
[7:04]who have worked with senators, which was interesting. And, you know, I try, it's a fiction,
[7:11]you know, obviously. But I try to at least sort of honor that up ramp of privacy and vision
[7:18]that these people have to experience. So, particularly women.
[7:22]Yes. And I thought it was so interesting how you have for campaign manager and her former law
[7:27]school classmate whose name I'm blank and, but I feel like stress with the G. What's it? What's
[7:30]it? Yeah. Gabby. Gabby. Gabby. Yeah. So when Gabby tells her, like, flat out, it's okay for men to
[7:37]make mistakes or to have regrets. But you can't say that. Like, it's just not okay for a woman,
[7:41]and just accept it, which is how they devise this whole charade is the wrong word.
[7:47]Yeah, plan plan. Yes, it's a bit of like a political stunt, like initially. So, I mean,
[7:53]but I think that's true. And it's again, it's like, I'm not trying to make it necessarily like a
[7:57]political statement, but I am trying to say, like, hey, look at the women who ran for president this
[8:04]year. There was a very little latitude given, you know, for any sort of mistake. And I'm still
[8:11]seeing it last night on Twitter about some of them. And I was just like, is this just such bullshit?
[8:17]Like, all these men have made, you know, huge. And would you think to say that there's something wrong
[8:22]with men making mistakes? Like, you couldn't revise your position on something or whatever. That's
[8:26]growth. But women are just not afforded that same thing. And so, you know, I wanted to view it
[8:32]as as Gabby comes around to. It's not a weakness. It's growth. And that's, I mean, you know,
[8:38]I'm in my 40s. I would hope that that is what we can come to that if we were all doing the same
[8:45]stuff we did in our 20s, like, yeah, yikes. Happy to close the chapter on a lot of those things.
[8:54]I wouldn't mind being a little younger and whatever, but the growth and hopefully emotional and
[9:00]the actual growth that you've come to is something that you can be proud of. And I, you know,
[9:05]I don't think that women, no, I don't think. I mean, women just aren't afforded that same
[9:10]luxury. So have you ever wanted to be a politician in any way? Oh, my God. No. But my son does.
[9:18]So that is probably part of the reason that, I mean, that I sort of had this deep dive or maybe
[9:25]that I was so interested in it. No, you know, it's funny. And I've never considered myself
[9:29]like a particularly political person, but I do look out in the world right now. I mean,
[9:34]I would say, you know, prior to a few years ago without, you know, making this political because
[9:40]again, I hope the book just sort of speaks for itself. But I felt like it was just using politics
[9:47]with sort of a lens with which to view some of the positions that women are in right now.
[9:54]And that is something I've experienced. I mean, I'm sure as you have, like, you know, I was thinking
[9:59]about this reason.
[10:00]like dating back to college and I remember sitting and I went to Penn and I was in a
[10:04]working class and we were working on a marketing project and I don't know what it was a group
[10:09]project and I remember like one of the young men saying to me like wow I didn't realize
[10:14]you were smart and I was just like like I don't even know what you do with that you know
[10:19]but it was so obviously like it was a male dominated class there wasn't a lot that they
[10:24]thought I was going to contribute and so it was it's like moments of that reflection where
[10:29]I felt like I wanted to give boys to that through Cleo and I think a lot of women
[10:33]understand that totally yeah so how did you go what happened between Penn and now in terms
[10:41]of writing did you always want to write like did you did you go to college thinking that
[10:46]or tell me when it started no how it's so interesting because I you know in high school
[10:51]like I got a lot of feedback from my English teachers one in particular who was you
[10:57]know very encouraging but I you know this was in like the 90s like the internet really
[11:02]wasn't around like how did one become a writer it was just insane it didn't even
[11:06]occur to me so no I went to Penn my brother was an investment banker like that's sort
[11:11]of what my parents inspired for me taking nothing away from them but that's that was
[11:14]like the path and it was just so obviously not for me so I did some PR out of college
[11:22]and I just slowly transitioned to I was doing like web copy and eventually I transitioned
[11:28]to magazines and then I got bored with that after many years like you know you like to
[11:33]reinvent yourself every once in a while and I wrote a book and it was terrible and it didn't
[11:39]sell but it was good foundation for figuring out how to actually do what I wanted and I
[11:46]just kept trying and I should say at Penn I was given like a newspaper column they had
[11:52]like outbeds that you got every other week and I submitted it in private like I didn't
[11:57]want to tell anybody I'd done it at the risk bill a little bit of clear and there I was like
[12:02]oh god if I don't get it it's so embarrassing and I did and I felt really validated and I feel
[12:07]like maybe creative types you just need like that one piece of validation to say keep going so
[12:12]like I know you recently sold a children's book like you just you need something to say okay like
[12:17]this isn't preposterous and eventually you know I did I wrote a different manuscript that's
[12:22]old and then so on and so forth and here I am so mine do you I've had two novels that have not
[12:28]sold as well so I'm so worried about it I'm so worried I have so many like this book that I
[12:36]was writing before Cleo half books that I mean this Cleo's my eighth book that I have not been able
[12:42]to jumpstart and I just think again like sort of in the themes of the book like there can be
[12:47]success in that failure too and that's that's fine I think if my first manuscript had been published
[12:53]it got me an agent but it didn't sell I don't think I would have had the longevity because it
[12:58]just wasn't good and like that's okay like you can write something bad or you can do something
[13:05]bad it's not the end of the world so but that's a lot of experience it was fairly humiliating
[13:12]well again I know I know but it's okay no I wrote a novel I this is about you but not about me
[13:19]but just to like chime in I wrote a novel after business school and told everyone after school that
[13:23]like that's what I was doing and so then everyone I knew was like how's it going how's that book
[13:29]and I'm like great great great and then it didn't sell and I literally it was like the biggest
[13:33]embarrassment because I was like this is such a it's probably like one of my first giant failures
[13:39]you know and it was out of my control like I did it I wrote it I rewrote it like four times
[13:45]and yet I couldn't sell it and I was just mortified anyway whatever I'm over it now that was a long
[13:50]time ago I feel like there's growth to be had there like you're like I mean just pretty much
[13:55]sucked but yes I guess there was some growth again like I felt like I had written this
[14:02]first book that the one it didn't sell I don't even like know I can't remember it was about now
[14:07]but I enjoyed it enough like I was passionate enough about it that when I'm like the feedback
[14:14]I got was she's a good writer about this book is like incoherent basically there was enough
[14:20]validation there sort of like with pending or I was like okay well the work still has to go into it
[14:25]and I'm always willing to do the work but and if I do that maybe I have another shot so you know
[14:31]that's what I took from it and sometimes being in the creative field is just continuing to go
[14:37]yes you know you're absolutely right so so when you write now what's your process like for the
[14:43]novels like do you have outlines do you have a place you go do you write from home like how do you
[14:47]do it right from home although I haven't been doing very much during this quarantine period I mean
[14:53]you and everybody else so it's exactly like I you know what be kind to yourself that's all I can
[14:59]say but I do write from home my dream day is to wake up and immediately start writing because
[15:06]like many writers the actual writing and sort of my like least favorite aspect of it it's hard
[15:12]for me to sit down and do it so I find that if I wake up and like I often like screw around online
[15:18]I you know whatever blah blah blah if I don't do that and I just don't give myself an excuse
[15:25]to procrastinate it's like it's like working out then it's done and I try to hit like a thousand
[15:29]words a day and sometimes it's great and I keep going I come back to it and sometimes it's like
[15:33]literally a thousand and one and that's it and I'm done but if I do it first thing it's such a
[15:39]relief to me again it's like working out it's like not hanging over me all day so that is the routine
[15:45]you know five days a week and then if you're writing a thousand words a day I usually can get a
[15:51]little more it's like a three month first draft and then you know the real work begins with the
[15:57]second draft and and all of that but I really like working with an editor and somebody who I
[16:03]like welcomed that constructive criticism to really show me where I'm going wrong and then
[16:08]I feel like I couldn't always make it better so that's the process how you do it
[16:12]and I saw that you just so legit the film rights is that right isn't that right or
[16:15]so rights to a different book this one where you know we're optimistic we'll see I sold the film
[16:21]rights for a time my life which was my second book it sold back when it came out and then the same
[16:26]producer has never lost your passion for it and she bought it again for Sony and I'm so I'm excited
[16:33]we'll see Hollywood is a weird place having gotten to know the process mark as my husband's
[16:39]a producer like burgeoning pretty you know he started within the last couple of years like it is
[16:44]so slow it's like maddening it's a miracle that anything gets done to be honest I cannot believe
[16:49]any projects get done ever 100% and so that's why I'm like yeah I'm excited but because you know
[16:56]like when this first sold yeah 10-12 years ago I'm so much more naive I'm like a jaded old
[17:02]soul now and I've had a few other things so and it's just really tough to get it out of the starting
[17:08]date so we'll see but I'm hopeful I mean she loved it for many years so we'll see you never
[17:14]know maybe it's meant to happen this way right yeah that's what I mean and we've been in
[17:19]touch and I consider her a friend and so maybe this time you know wrong columns are coming back and
[17:25]I feel like people need some levity given that we might be in the situation for a while so
[17:30]hopefully so I don't know how you film these days so yeah I mean either where I guess we'll
[17:35]watch and see podcast yeah there we go so are you I know you're not actively working right now
[17:42]given all the constraints and that's totally fine but do you have like your next project I'll
[17:47]picked out or do you have you started at all or so I'm working on a few like film things after
[17:53]we just said I mean there they're more I got the nothing's in here they're more like with the
[17:59]magazine step I'm interested in sort of trying a new flexing a new muscle and I wrote a script
[18:05]with a friend of mine we adapted my last book between me and you and he's a very accomplished
[18:11]screenwriter so I learned so much and working with them so we're sort of fiddling around with that
[18:17]and trying a variety of things I feel like I'm actually for the first time in my life I'm sort
[18:21]interested in writing a sequel to this book I feel like there's so many places it could go
[18:26]and I really loved her son who I you have teenagers I think so I do it yeah so I have two teens so
[18:33]I love to sort of get back into him but I just how much mental energy do people have now
[18:42]I don't know I mean god bless these people who are still cranking out projects but it's tough
[18:48]right yes I felt so motivated at the beginning like I have to help I have to help like I
[18:54]felt like the world was coming to an end and everything I did was like critical and important and
[18:59]I'm feeling much less like that these days as the emails like pile up and I'm like oh so
[19:06]right I schedule like one thing a day and I'm like that is the max that I can do like my daughter
[19:12]allergy shot today and I'm like I can't do it it's only do so much in a day I mean I'm not even
[19:21]kidding like you wake up and suddenly it's five o'clock and I don't know maybe being like working
[19:27]would I mean on something creative would pass the time faster but things are already you know
[19:33]it's like the middle of June I don't know what's happening so it's absolute no it's almost
[19:38]the end of June so we'll see I you know hopefully this sort of resolves itself as much as it
[19:46]can and then I'll start working on something else I like to take sort of a break I feel like
[19:52]it's like giving birth like you don't turn around and get pregnant right away because you need
[19:57]to heal so so we're all healing
[20:00]I like that.
[20:01]Yeah.
[20:02]Exactly.
[20:03]So have any advice to aspiring authors?
[20:06]Sure.
[20:07]The one thing that I often say is take your ego out of it.
[20:12]You know, and it sort of gets back to what you and I were talking about.
[20:15]Like, constructive criticism is the best thing that you can get for yourself.
[20:20]Like, you think your draft is done because you've finished a word count.
[20:24]And, you know, again, this is my eighth book.
[20:26]I probably go through seven revisions.
[20:28]And, like, an editor or, you know, a feedback reader is only there to help you.
[20:33]And taking things personally or, you know, immediately shooting down ideas is,
[20:38]I just don't think that's the way to expand your craft.
[20:41]So just be open to becoming a better writer.
[20:44]And again, it's still like an on-ramp for people who've published a lot.
[20:50]So that's really, you know, the best advice I have in race criticism.
[20:54]And also, I would say, always go another draft or two.
[20:58]Even when you think it's done.
[21:00]It's trust.
[21:02]I mean, now you're right.
[21:03]Right.
[21:04]I'm like, I'm done.
[21:05]And then, you know what?
[21:06]I'm not done.
[21:07]Because there are ways that it can be better.
[21:10]And I do feel like we've all sort of read those books that maybe could have used another draft or two.
[21:15]And then they would have been, like, incredible instead of just good.
[21:19]And that could speak, you know, I'm sure people have read my stuff and thought that way.
[21:24]But that's, you know, you want to put out your best work.
[21:27]So that's what I would say.
[21:30]Excellent advice.
[21:32]Probably true with a lot of things in life, you know.
[21:35]Yeah.
[21:36]That's the big secret.
[21:37]This show actually is not about books.
[21:39]It's actually about life.
[21:40]But I just, you know, hide it behind books and answers.
[21:42]That's right.
[21:43]He's like, just trying to show my husband how to do the dishwasher.
[21:46]I'm not trying to be critical.
[21:49]Why is he getting so mad?
[21:52]Oh, that's a quarantine thing.
[21:55]It will one.
[21:56]I mean, I was going to say this two-shot pass, but maybe it won't.
[21:59]I don't know.
[22:00]I will find out.
[22:01]I'll be talking to you.
[22:02]And like this in the next year.
[22:04]Yeah.
[22:05]Just for my next video.
[22:06]Oh God, what do you want to say?
[22:07]Imagine if I was like, still.
[22:08]Anyway.
[22:09]Yeah.
[22:10]I mean, I know.
[22:11]I know.
[22:12]Right.
[22:13]Well, thank you for coming out.
[22:16]Oh my God.
[22:17]Thank you for the commiseration and all the rest.
[22:19]You either in New York or in California.
[22:22]Yeah.
[22:23]One day.
[22:24]Yes.
[22:25]That would be great.
[22:27]But you know what?
[22:28]It's summer.
[22:29]We're lucky.
[22:30]Yes.
[22:31]We work at home.
[22:32]And our kids can go outside and we're healthy.
[22:35]Yes.
[22:36]There's so much to be grateful for.
[22:37]Yes.
[22:38]And I am.
[22:39]But it's sometimes it's fun just to.
[22:40]Oh no.
[22:42]To vent essentially is basically what I turned this podcast into.
[22:45]Yeah.
[22:46]Yeah.
[22:47]You know.
[22:48]Yes.
[22:49]We were good.
[22:50]I was going to go like sitting somebody's driveway for all of our birthdays.
[22:54]And they were like, we have three more us friends.
[22:56]And we were like, do we not seen them 24 hours a day?
[23:00]And we not just hit by ourselves.
[23:03]You know.
[23:04]I had a girlfriend come over to sit outside and chit chat or whatever.
[23:07]And she was like, I feel so bad and erupting.
[23:09]You guys don't have the kids this weekend.
[23:11]Because I'm divorced and remarried.
[23:12]Yeah.
[23:13]And I was like, it's OK.
[23:14]It's OK.
[23:15]We've been hanging out.
[23:16]Like, not stop for it.
[23:18]What 14 hours of exam?
[23:20]It's OK.
[23:21]I mean, I'm happy.
[23:22]It's just, you know, a friend.
[23:23]An infusion of a new person is a nice thing too.
[23:26]Yeah.
[23:27]That's right.
[23:28]And like, we usually we've been obviously cooking most dinners.
[23:30]And like every night my husband's like, don't you guys
[23:32]have to sit with us.
[23:33]And my kids are like, no.
[23:34]And like, you're like, you're like, you're like,
[23:36]you're like, we've had enough.
[23:38]So it's funny.
[23:40]Yeah.
[23:41]All right.
[23:42]Well, great to have you.
[23:44]Thanks for taking the time.
[23:45]Sorry again about our introduction via technology issues.
[23:49]Good.
[23:50]OK.
[23:51]I'm going to get my daughter from the beach.
[23:52]Awesome.
[23:53]OK.
[23:54]Second thing I'm doing today.
[23:56]Then you're done.
[23:57]You're out.
[23:58]OK.
[23:59]Bye.
[24:00]Bye.
[24:01]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[24:03]Moms don't have time to read books.
[24:05]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram at
[24:09]Zippy Owens and at Moms don't have time to read books
[24:12]and sign up for my mailing list at Zippy Owens.com.
[24:15]So you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[24:18]Thanks a lot.
[24:19]Thanks so much to Rockets.
[24:20]It's awesome for giving us a discount of 20% off your four times
[24:23]a year boxes.
[24:25]Rocketsofawesome.com slash books and discount code books.
[24:29]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at TextureSound for the sound
[24:32]editing.
[24:33]Thank you to Morningmoon Productions for providing this fantastic
[24:36]intro and now trim music.
[24:37]Thanks for listening.
[24:38]You can always email me at Zippy at Zippy Owens.com.