Sophie Heawood, THE HUNGOVER GAMES
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast.
[0:15]If you like what you hear, please follow me on Instagram at ziviowens,
[0:19]and also at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening and joy it.
[0:23]Today's episode was sponsored by Nest Notes, which is a company founded by a mom named Chase
[0:28]Simmering, who's in Miami, and they create print keepsakes that tell stories,
[0:33]which, as you all know, stories are like my favorite thing, whether they're family stories or
[0:37]stories of the places we call home. So shop, kid stationery and papergrids, and little journals
[0:42]and all the rest at this amazing company, NestNotes.com. I had the best time talking to Sophie
[0:48]Heywood, spelled H-E-A-W-O-O-D, who wrote a hilarious and also moving memoir called The
[0:54]Hangover Games about single motherhood. Sophie grew up in Yorkshire, where she developed an early
[0:59]understanding of celebrity as the only vegetarian in the local state school. And she wrote,
[1:03]Ernest Letters to the South African ambassador about apartheid at age 10. She later studied
[1:09]languages at King's College and Birkbeck, both part of London University, while working nights
[1:14]as the door girl in the legendary nightclub called Trash. She has also lived in Barcelona working
[1:19]as an au pair in Hong Kong, working as an extra in Chinese soap operas and in Los Angeles,
[1:24]where she interviewed the famous and wrote columns on modern life for publications including
[1:28]The Sunday Times Guardian Observer, Vogue, and Vice Magazine. She was nominated for interviewer
[1:34]of the year at the British Press Awards 2019. She lives in Hackney, East London with her daughter
[1:39]and hasn't quite stopped at night clubbing yet. Welcome, Sophie. Thank you so much for coming on
[1:44]mom's don't have time to read books to discuss The Hangover Games. So excited to have you on.
[1:49]Oh, I think you've been having me on the trail. Your book was so funny. I mean, literally from
[1:55]the opening paragraph through to the end. And of course, there's heart and soul and all the rest.
[2:01]But you're just so funny. And it's so great to read something that makes me laugh out loud.
[2:06]Especially these days, I feel like. So thank you for that.
[2:10]Oh, thank you. I was just, I had a right to friend round to have a socially distant
[2:15]drink in my garden last night. He's called Joel Goldby. And we were sat there going,
[2:19]maybe we're not funny. Maybe we've been thinking we're funny all this time. We're, you know,
[2:22]we're getting to that stage of going, what is funny? Are we funny? So it's reassuring to hear.
[2:27]Yes. I think you're funny. I really do. If I could just read like a couple clips,
[2:33]this is just from the very beginning. And then I'll read one more from the end.
[2:35]You said it had all happened by accident. I hadn't meant to have a baby at all. I hadn't meant
[2:39]not to have a baby either by which I mean, I always thought I'd have children one day. It's
[2:43]just that I always thought those children would grow up with me and they're yet to materialize
[2:46]father in a lovely farmhouse hugged by the hills with an aga and a dog and story books and trees
[2:51]and long invigorating walks through the fields and loving drizzle. That was not how I had grown
[2:55]up in Yorkshire, but it wasn't a million miles from it either several hundred thousand out of
[2:59]push. It was an idealized version of home. And it lived somewhere vaguely in my future as an unspecified
[3:05]certainty. And then you go into talking about how you're living in West Hollywood and the census trip.
[3:10]And you think you're not going to get pregnant because of everything that happens and then
[3:14]lo and behold you do and what ensues after that. So that wasn't really a question. That was,
[3:19]that was just an introduction. It was a big shock. I'd been told by some very expensive doctors
[3:25]only because I happened to live near Cedar Sinai Hospital and I got taken there with an emergency
[3:30]which was something else. And while there they said, oh, we've done all these tests on you and
[3:34]you're in a fertile and it was such a shock. So to get pregnant a week after that was also a shock.
[3:40]Unbelievable. I feel like infertility is, I don't know, it's not a science. It's not an exact
[3:47]science yet. There are more times. Yeah, I eventually had to start going and seeing for my
[3:52]maternity checkup. She said, you know, I've had a hundred women coming here with stories like this,
[3:58]this year. It is the least understood science. I do wonder if that's because it affects women's
[4:04]bodies and there are various studies that suggest that science has paid more attention to male
[4:09]bodies. Yeah, I don't know. Yes, I'm not even going to go into some of my theories here.
[4:15]It's not even worth it. By the way, I lived right where you lived in West Hollywood, by the way,
[4:21]for several years. And so all the places, and I still spend a lot of time in LA, but right after I
[4:26]graduated from college, I lived in four different apartments because of my various breakups and
[4:31]what have you all within like a minute from Chateau Marmont right on the Sunset Strip over there. So
[4:37]everything you wrote, I was like, oh my gosh. I've had those tacos. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
[4:44]So you lived in LA, tell me a little more about how the life sort of unfolded. You were a journalist
[4:51]and then you moved to Hollywood to try to pursue more entertainment journalism and got all these
[4:56]big shut interviews and stuff. And then you moved back to have your baby. Tell me the precursor to
[5:01]everything. Sure. So I'm British. I was a journalist in London. I was writing for newspapers
[5:06]like The Guardian and The Sunday Times and when it's magazines like L and Vogue. And I would
[5:12]interview musicians. Initially, I was a sort of music kind of rock journalist. And then from that
[5:16]because I got good at interviewing in general, you can also, you know, go into an actress, a film
[5:21]director, even a politician, a writer, anybody. So I went on a few press trips to LA that were
[5:27]paid for by work. And I discovered this city that I thought I would hate. You know, I thought LA
[5:31]was all kind of fake smiles and boob jobs and sort of shallowness and people who don't read
[5:38]books and sort of apolitical on this. And of course, you know, you find pockets of that. But it's
[5:43]like suggesting that London is all the queen and Buckingham Palace. You know, that's just one tiny part
[5:48]of London life. And that kind of Hollywood myth is just one tiny part of Los Angeles. So I went to LA
[5:54]and started making all these friends there who were really interesting and they were readers and
[5:58]some of them were high school teachers and poets or, you know, they worked with homeless children.
[6:02]I mean, they were doing all sorts of interesting stuff that makes up a whole city. And of
[6:06]course, there were people in the film industry as well. And I was interviewing celebrities. So I
[6:10]got to see all the glamorous stuff, which I did feed off and love, I have to say. Yeah. So I
[6:16]decided to pay. I got to wear my base self there and lots of British newspapers were bringing me
[6:21]up. So we need somebody now. They can you go on quickly, you know, J-Lo's in town. She's promoting
[6:25]some new music. You know, can you go and hang out in a hotel with J-Lo for the afternoon? So it
[6:28]was always really fun stuff like that. I was also approaching my mid 30s. And I, you know, hadn't
[6:35]even had the sort of relationship where you move in with a guy and think, well, maybe we'll get
[6:38]married. You know, I hadn't even got that far. I was very kind of running around and giddy and
[6:42]not committing to things and drinking quite a lot of parties. And so I just thought I had the rest
[6:49]of my life to sort that stuff out. And you know, there are limits. You do have to kind of work out
[6:54]how to have relationships and how to build that commitment and have a family if you want to do it that
[6:59]way. But what happened was I was completely giddy and chaotic. Then found out I couldn't have children.
[7:05]Then had I'm pretty safe with someone I'd known for a long time but in a kind of casual hook-up way.
[7:12]And then I was somebody's mom by the end of the year. So crazy.
[7:17]So I then had to learn to, you know, settle down. That's all for dreary phase. You know,
[7:23]the first person I ever learned to settle down or commit to was my own child. And I suppose the
[7:28]book is the story of, you know, what happens? You know, everyone talks about old growing up and
[7:32]calming down and sucking down and then doing the kid thing. You know, I had the kid and then had to
[7:37]work out how the hell do I do the rest of it. And do I need to? Do you have to calm, you know,
[7:41]what is calming down? Do you have to settle down? You know, why does a mother who has a child have
[7:46]to stop going to parties or stop going on dates? You know, can you commit to your child but also
[7:51]have that kind of exciting private life? So I think my book is an exploration of how that went.
[7:57]Well, and some of it went. Yeah. What is your takeaway on that? So now your daughter,
[8:02]we were just talking. So now your daughter is eight. What can you still have fun and go to parties and
[8:07]have dating life and all the rest? Have you been able to? What do you think? Like, is it mutually
[8:12]exclusive? I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Partly why I wrote this book was because
[8:18]in my life, whenever I come into a difficult situation, you know, you have a certain kind of,
[8:21]I don't know you have a fight with a friend that really upsets you or some work situation that you're
[8:26]you're not sure of. I always write my brains. Have I read, have I read a newspaper,
[8:31]call them about someone who, you know, went through this? Have I had a good friend who went through
[8:34]the same kind of problem with her family? You know, I kind of write my brain for advice and I remember
[8:39]going on a date when I was still breastfeeding my daughter and he had to pick me up from my house
[8:45]and realizing he was going to see me breastfeed and this is in the book. And I suddenly had this
[8:51]dilemma thinking, I'm quite a public breastfeeder, but this man hasn't seen my boobs yet and
[8:56]I don't want to go there on the first, you know, I'm kissed and should he first see that part of
[9:01]I asked me one, someone else got there. I don't have, you know, I was racking my brain thinking,
[9:05]I must, someone must know I've got nothing in my database about should you breastfeed on a
[9:12]first date. And that I think was when I first started writing, I've got to write this book because
[9:16]no one else is going to tell you. That's so great. I don't think you can have it all. I don't
[9:21]think you should follow that particular turn of phrase, but I think you can have some of it.
[9:27]I don't think you can have it all the dating and the quilching and the motherhood and be drunk.
[9:31]I think maybe you have to carry it at the last day. Or maybe not during the day.
[9:39]I am divorced and remarried and when I was going through getting to my second marriage,
[9:47]my kids were really little. I mean, they're still a little to be honest, but I remember like trying
[9:51]to balance all that and being like taking my like toddler with me to get a bikini wax because I was
[9:56]like about to excuse them. Yeah, they don't be like.
[10:00]And she's like pounding on the door of the spot.
[10:02]I'm like, I am such a bad mom right now.
[10:04]Like, but I need to do this because like,
[10:07]anyway, it's like, anyway,
[10:08]being a mom and dating and trying to like make it all work
[10:12]is just, it is hard.
[10:13]So I totally related to some of the stuff in your book,
[10:17]although from a different angle.
[10:19]That is so funny.
[10:20]My daughter has also come to a bikini wax with me.
[10:23]That's really why I actually forgot on that
[10:25]that she did, yeah.
[10:26]Not to say that you have to, you know,
[10:28]be dating to get them sure other women
[10:30]are getting a bikini wax.
[10:31]It's just, it's a matter of course.
[10:33]But I really do go things, but sometimes I remember
[10:39]we were once on holiday on it.
[10:40]I was going to put this in my book and, you know,
[10:42]you can only put so many stories in.
[10:44]But we went on holiday to a Greek island once
[10:46]and it was just me and her having a lovely sort of romantic
[10:48]honeymoon type holiday for, you know, me and a five-year-old.
[10:52]And there was a guy at the next restaurant table
[10:54]who was obviously sort of young French backpack.
[10:56]I mean, not totally young, probably late 20s.
[10:59]But he'd obviously come to the island on his own
[11:01]and he was kind of smoking a French sibera
[11:03]and looking beautifully out at the ocean on this Greek island.
[11:06]I thought I'd love to talk to him.
[11:08]And I said to my daughter who was drawing pictures
[11:10]of her teddy bear in her sketch pattern.
[11:12]He looked at man on the next table
[11:13]if he'd like to draw teddy as well with your sketch pad.
[11:16]And she'd told her to open and said,
[11:17]would you like to have,
[11:19]what are you doing?
[11:20]I said to him, it's a competition.
[11:21]He's got time to the competition.
[11:23]She said, would you like to draw my teddy bear
[11:25]on your drawing pad?
[11:26]And he said, oh, oh, yes, I would.
[11:30]And then he was like, oh, would your mother
[11:32]like a glass of wine?
[11:33]I was like, here we are.
[11:34]So you can't use your child.
[11:39]Yes, use them as bait.
[11:40]So he joined our table.
[11:42]Very clean.
[11:43]Drinking wine together.
[11:44]So you know, you've got to not think, oh God,
[11:46]I wish I could talk to that guy,
[11:47]but my kids are drawing a picture that teddy bear.
[11:50]Gotta use it.
[11:50]So somewhere between breastfeeding on the first date
[11:53]and teddy bear drawing is the answer
[11:55]to making it all work.
[11:58]Yeah, it's like five years to get my mojo
[12:01]between the two stores.
[12:04]You also had some really funny commentary
[12:06]on how parenting has sort of changed over time
[12:08]when you went back and compared,
[12:10]like you're being raised in your kids.
[12:12]You said, you weren't really allowed
[12:14]to compliment your children when I grew up.
[12:16]I remember once asking my mother, if I was pretty,
[12:18]she wasn't really listening.
[12:19]So she said, yes.
[12:20]Then she looked up from the radio times
[12:22]and actually contemplated my face.
[12:24]Well, she began again.
[12:26]Yet somehow between my childhood and my daughter's childhood,
[12:30]the parents of Britain have become inseparable boars,
[12:32]constantly praising their children
[12:34]and telling everyone else how wonderful they are,
[12:36]bringing up their own slavish devotion
[12:38]to parenting methods, which are naturally superior to yours.
[12:41]Sometimes it is done as humble bragging,
[12:42]which is a boast dressed up as self-deprecation,
[12:45]something which seems particularly popular
[12:47]among new parents.
[12:50]Tell me more about that.
[12:51]You know what it's like,
[12:52]sometimes you have these vivid childhood memories
[12:53]that have sort of gently, you know,
[12:55]scarred you for 20 years,
[12:56]and you go back and ask your family,
[12:57]and they're like, that never happened.
[12:59]That never happened.
[13:00]You know, we never even went to that place,
[13:01]and you're like, I remember a little more, like,
[13:04]so I said to my mom, thinking she'd be like,
[13:06]oh, for God's sake, so I said, do you remember me asking you?
[13:11]I was pretty, and you sort of go, wow.
[13:14]And in fact, there was more to it.
[13:17]What she'd said was, because after the well,
[13:19]she said, oh, chocolate box, pretty.
[13:22]And as a child, I didn't know what that meant,
[13:23]but I could, you can tell what it means.
[13:25]You can tell what it means.
[13:27]So I said to her the other day,
[13:28]do you think you said that to me?
[13:29]And she said, yes, sounds quite possible.
[13:32]Okay, that's going, you're not denying it.
[13:35]I was going away, but, you know,
[13:37]I think I was a perfectly reasonable looking child.
[13:39]I didn't, you know, I didn't have any issues with my face.
[13:42]It was, you know, fairly symmetrical.
[13:44]I think I looked perfectly nice.
[13:45]I think what she was possibly trying to say
[13:47]is a very realistic woman was like, you're fine,
[13:51]but you're going to need something else.
[13:52]Don't get hung up on your face, you know?
[13:55]That's what she was saying.
[13:56]And I have to say, she was right.
[13:59]You know, we do live in the world, we live in.
[14:00]And I think I think I did at that point.
[14:03]And I went, you know, I've never been sort of hung up
[14:05]on beauty or looks particularly.
[14:06]So even though I'm still annoyed,
[14:08]she said, I kind of get what she was coming from.
[14:12]The rest of your question is about sort of parenting methods.
[14:14]I've been so praised that they struggled
[14:17]to try new things in which they might fail or things.
[14:19]They might, you know, you say to them,
[14:20]oh, do you want to have a go on this?
[14:21]I don't know.
[14:22]Someone's got like a toy bow and arrow or something.
[14:24]And they don't know, they don't know how to fire
[14:25]and they're going to do it wrong.
[14:27]So they kind of can't do it
[14:28]because they've been told they're a genius since birth.
[14:30]I think it's a balance, isn't it?
[14:33]It's a balance.
[14:34]It's hard.
[14:35]Totally.
[14:36]Yeah.
[14:36]Sometimes I just tell my kids, they're all insane.
[14:38]And then they laugh and run off and that works too.
[14:44]So when did you decide you were going to turn your life
[14:46]into a book?
[14:47]Well, I was already a published writer
[14:50]and then I was a journalist doing quite a lot of work.
[14:52]So through that, I sort of met people in publishing and age.
[14:54]And so I wasn't, you know, it's funny,
[14:56]right?
[14:56]Talk about being a single mom and sometimes people
[14:58]imagine that means you've been sort of hidden away
[15:01]from society, you know, not able to take part in things.
[15:04]And I was in the media already.
[15:06]So I think a literary agent had come to me.
[15:09]And she was still a baby and said, you know,
[15:11]you're going to write about this.
[15:12]And at that stage, I was like, no, no, it's too personal.
[15:15]It's too much.
[15:15]And also I can't tell you about being a mother.
[15:18]I'm still finding my feet.
[15:20]And then I said, when there was this one funny thing,
[15:22]what's this thing where when I was pregnant,
[15:24]I went to see this guy on a collegeist in LA.
[15:27]And I, you know, this is in the early traps of the book
[15:30]where she says, do you have any questions
[15:31]about the pregnancy?
[15:32]And I say, well, you know, there's just one,
[15:34]is it safe to use a vibrator and this letter?
[15:37]Oh, funny incident in her office.
[15:41]And I told this literary agent the story.
[15:43]And he said, he said, keep talking,
[15:46]because I can get you a book deal this afternoon
[15:48]if you start writing like that.
[15:51]And I thought, oh, God.
[15:53]But I didn't.
[15:54]I didn't get the book deal.
[15:55]I didn't, I didn't take his advice.
[15:57]And I didn't do anything for about another three years
[16:00]because it just felt, I mean, that's a sort of funny
[16:02]personal story, which is a bit embarrassing,
[16:04]but not hugely, it's just kind of calm, it's almost slapstick.
[16:08]But, you know, to do justice to my experience
[16:10]of having a child with someone who, you know,
[16:13]was shocked and we were both shot by my pregnancy,
[16:15]but our reactions went in completely different directions.
[16:18]And I ended up raising her on my own.
[16:20]To do justice to that story, I would have to slightly tread
[16:23]on his, you know, into his life and his feelings.
[16:26]And that's a hard thing to do and there's been conflict.
[16:28]So it just took me years, I think,
[16:30]to find a way to do justice.
[16:33]I didn't want to sort of whitewash the story.
[16:35]I didn't want to say, hey, it's fine.
[16:36]I was left on my own and that's cool.
[16:38]And that's the way I wanted it.
[16:39]And you don't need a man and all you need is a mother
[16:42]and a child, you know, I didn't want to sort of
[16:43]cheerly this false narrative of like, everything's great.
[16:47]But I also couldn't write too much about other people's fears
[16:52]and other people's lives.
[16:53]So, and you know, you know that your child is gonna read this
[16:55]but one day, well, I assume she will, she won't make sure.
[16:59]But I would have it with me.
[17:00]So I think it took a long time.
[17:02]I wanted to be truthful and I have been truthful
[17:04]but I had to find a way to do that.
[17:06]So she's now a roughly covers sort of,
[17:09]from me sort of, you know, in my life a bit before I got pregnant
[17:12]to have sort of maybe starting to go to the schools.
[17:15]And maybe she's about sort of four or five at the end of it.
[17:17]I think that distance is helpful.
[17:19]But a friend British writer, Captain Moran, she always says,
[17:21]it's amazing to write about your own life
[17:23]but if you're publishing it literally as it's happening
[17:25]and kind of live blogging your life,
[17:27]that's dangerous, you need to distance from it.
[17:30]Very true.
[17:31]Well, how do you feel now that you've written it?
[17:32]Like, are you glad?
[17:34]Was it a fun experience to write it all down and relive it?
[17:36]Is it something like you'd want to keep chronicling,
[17:39]you know, through when she's in high school or I don't know?
[17:42]Like, what do you think it's done,
[17:44]like this subject matter for you, as far as books go?
[17:48]I would like to write one more memoir book like this memoir
[17:51]in that, you know, stories from my own life experience.
[17:54]But she's eight now, you know,
[17:56]if I was to write another book by the time it came out,
[17:59]she might be say 11.
[18:01]I think she'll be really angry with me at some point
[18:04]in her childhood routine age years.
[18:06]She's gonna be unhappy that I wrote this book.
[18:08]After that, I genuinely think she'll be thrilled
[18:10]because whilst it does have embarrassing family personal stuff,
[18:14]and it has huge amounts of love and passion
[18:17]and just loads of anecdotes from her early years
[18:19]that she won't know otherwise.
[18:21]And I think if there was a book like that in my own family,
[18:24]I'd have been thrilled, but I think it would have taken me
[18:26]a while to get to that thrill
[18:27]because as a 14-year-old girl, you know,
[18:30]you're gonna feel embarrassed when you find out
[18:32]what your mom has done.
[18:34]So I don't know if I can get away with publishing the book
[18:37]and I've mentioned my daughter,
[18:39]but I might write something else perhaps about,
[18:40]you know, being a woman growing older or something like that.
[18:43]Excellent.
[18:44]So are you working on any new projects?
[18:45]Are you, are you, and are you still actively, you know,
[18:48]in the media?
[18:49]I know there's lots of press about you now,
[18:50]but are you still covering things?
[18:52]Yes.
[18:53]So I've just been doing some long-term interviews.
[18:55]Usually with celebrities, I still sometimes fly out to LA
[18:58]to do the interview, or go to New York,
[19:00]or meet them in a hotel in London, for example.
[19:04]And that's not been happening.
[19:05]So I just interviewed the amazing British actress,
[19:07]Kristin Scott Thomas, but I had to do it a bit like this
[19:11]talking to her over Skype, which meant that my daughter,
[19:13]who's never been to one of my interviews,
[19:15]wanted in.
[19:16]And though I was just chatting to one of my friends,
[19:17]I think, and wouldn't leave the room
[19:19]and was like, oh, hello, nice lady on the screen.
[19:21]And Kristin's got Thomas was like, oh, how old are you?
[19:23]And they were having a nice dad.
[19:24]I was thinking the clock is ticking.
[19:26]I've got to write a cover feature for the guardian, isn't it?
[19:30]But that's been quite fun.
[19:31]Yes.
[19:32]Every team interviews, still writing some bits and bobs.
[19:36]I have been walking to my agent about writing fiction.
[19:39]And she said, you know, Sophie, the tough thing about writing
[19:42]a novel is that you have to make the whole thing up.
[19:44]And I said, I know, that's the dream.
[19:48]I don't know if I wanted to dredge the most painful
[19:51]personal bits of my life, but only more,
[19:54]making the whole thing up sounds wonderful.
[19:58]That's awesome.
[19:59]So do you?
[20:00]Have any advice to aspiring authors?
[20:02]Sure.
[20:03]I had a creative writing teacher once.
[20:05]I mean, I didn't do a huge amount of creative writing courses.
[20:07]I didn't do a degree or anything, but I went to some evening classes.
[20:11]And a woman once said to me, if you can't write anything,
[20:15]if you sit there typing over your pen and paper,
[20:19]and the voice in your head that tells you
[20:20]you're terrible, just really tells you
[20:23]that you're writing rubbish, you're writing trash nonsense.
[20:26]She said, you can just sit there and type the sentence,
[20:29]I am writing rubbish.
[20:30]I am writing rubbish.
[20:31]I am writing rubbish.
[20:33]She said, you can do that for three whole pages, if you like.
[20:36]And after three pages of typing, I am writing rubbish.
[20:38]You'll get so frustrated and angry
[20:40]that you might type something else.
[20:44]It does work.
[20:45]She also told us to set a timer for five minutes,
[20:48]not two hours, not two weeks, five minutes,
[20:51]and write without stopping for five minutes,
[20:52]and then look at how much you've done, and really it's a lot.
[20:56]You can write so much in five minutes
[20:58]that makes you think, oh, I spent years saying,
[21:01]I don't have the time to write, you know,
[21:02]because I've got kids or, you know, a career
[21:05]or all of those things.
[21:07]When you see how many words you can do in five minutes,
[21:09]it's really interesting.
[21:10]It's excellent advice.
[21:11]All excellent advice.
[21:12]Amazing.
[21:13]Well, thank you.
[21:14]Thank you so much for coming on my podcast.
[21:17]I am such a fan of yours now.
[21:19]I am like gonna be following every little thing you do.
[21:22]I'm so glad I read your book.
[21:23]I really needed that laugh and humor
[21:26]and that British, you know, cleverness
[21:28]that only you guys seem to be able to really
[21:32]corner the market on so.
[21:33]And I've grown up reading American literature.
[21:34]I always thought you guys had it first.
[21:36]So it's extraordinary to find out
[21:38]that Americans love British writing so much.
[21:40]It's very true.
[21:42]Well, thank you so much.
[21:43]And thanks for sharing your life story
[21:45]in the hungover games and all of it.
[21:47]I truly appreciate it.
[21:49]So thank you.
[21:50]Thank you.
[21:51]Bye.
[21:52]Bye.
[21:52]Have a great day.
[21:53]Thank you.
[21:53]Bye.
[21:55]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[21:57]Moms don't have time to read books.
[21:59]If you liked this episode, please follow me
[22:01]on Instagram at zibi Owens
[22:04]and at Moms don't have time to read books
[22:06]and sign up for my mailing list at zibi Owens.com.
[22:09]So you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[22:12]Thanks a lot.
[22:12]Thanks so much to nestnotes.com for sponsoring today's podcast.
[22:16]Check them out for some amazing print keepsakes
[22:19]that tell your family stories.
[22:20]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at TextureSound
[22:23]for the sound editing.
[22:24]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:26]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[22:29]Thanks for listening.
[22:30]You could always email me at zibiatzibi Owens.com.