Claire Nicogossian, MAMA, YOU ARE ENOUGH
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zive Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast. If you like what
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[1:12]PageOneBooks.com. Hi. Happy Monday. Actually, I don't like when people say happy Monday.
[1:17]I don't know why I said that. Anyway, welcome back. I hope you guys had a great weekend. This is the
[1:22]second week of my July book last. So get excited. The first day is advice Monday. So it's a
[1:30]assorted advice all day for this Monday. I hope you enjoy it. And stay tuned all week. We're
[1:35]going to have kids books, and petri's, self help, and more. And we're kicking it off with advice
[1:41]Monday. Stay tuned. Dr. Claire Nicogosian is the author of Mama You Are Enough, had a create
[1:49]calm joy and confidence within the chaos of motherhood. As soon as I heard the title, I knew
[1:53]I had to, I knew I had to pick up this book as soon as possible. Originally from Washington DC,
[1:58]Dr. Claire Nicogosian completed her undergrad degree in psychology and early education,
[2:03]and her master's degree in counseling from Marymount University in Arlington, Virginia.
[2:07]She then became a psychologist and got her doctorate in clinical psychology at the American
[2:12]School of Professional Psychology in also in Virginia. She completed an internship at Virginia
[2:17]Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia, and then had fraternal twin girls and moved to Rhode Island.
[2:22]Now she's there. Return to clinical work and completing her postdoc fellowship at our ICPT
[2:28]in North Kingston. She has worked in a variety of clinical settings, including the psychiatric
[2:33]Institute of Washington County Mental Health Center and the Catholic University Counseling Center.
[2:38]She also works in private practice. Dr. Claire is passionate about well-being and self-care for
[2:43]individuals with a focus on parental well-being and writes about these topics at momswellbeing.com,
[2:48]mothering.com, the Today Show Community Parenting Team, and her self-health column ask Dr. Claire.
[2:53]You can also listen to her podcast in session with Dr. Claire. Hi, Claire. I'm sorry. I'm late.
[2:58]How are you? I'm good. No apologies needed. Two minutes still feels like on time. I was actually
[3:05]taking the quiz on your website. That's awesome. And I was like, how much longer could this be?
[3:13]It is long. You know what? I appreciate that because that I created that a couple of years ago,
[3:19]and now I realize it's who has time. No, no, no. It was good. I had time. I just didn't have time
[3:24]right now. I just should have done it like an hour ago before I was in the middle of doing podcasts,
[3:28]but I was like, what is this? I'll never pass up a quiz. I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's fun
[3:34]because I love to do that because it's almost like a baseline of what I would do when I'm working
[3:39]with clients. And I feel like that information's so important and powerful for people that if they
[3:45]can start with their physical health and they can go to a primary care physician or they can go to
[3:51]their, you know, counselor and like have like a nice foundation to like start from. It's awesome.
[3:57]Yeah. So thanks for coming on. Mom's not a 10 to read books. Can you tell me more about your book?
[4:02]Of course, I left over behind me. But anyway, I have it. And tell listeners about your book
[4:08]and what it's about and what inspired you to write it. Yes, thank you so much for having me on
[4:12]so generous what you're doing for authors. So thank you so much and what you have done. Yeah, so I
[4:17]this book, so I'm a mother of four daughters. And I am also a clinical psychologist. And when I
[4:24]became a mother with all this education, these advanced degrees, a master's and a doctorate. And
[4:30]those first couple of months that first year of motherhood, I said, oh my goodness, like there's so
[4:35]many things I'm feeling. There's so many things I'm going through. And I've done as much education
[4:40]you can in mental health. How come we're not talking about these things? And so I would go to like
[4:46]mom's groups and I would at the time I was in this twins group. And I just wanted to talk about
[4:50]real emotions. You know that I love my daughters. I love being a mom. But is anybody else bored?
[4:57]Is anybody else frustrated? Does anybody else feel so angry from your sleep deprivation or
[5:03]frustrated with your partner or husband? Because you can't get them on the same page. And it was
[5:08]like this wall would go out, like it was taboo to talk about. So that became a lot of the inspiration
[5:16]for the book is to talk about things that us moms are going through that I hear about in my profession.
[5:25]You know, moms would come in and I work with a lot of new moms postpartum, second time moms are
[5:31]people are going through parenting issues and just need some support. And they always start
[5:36]whenever they want to talk about motherhood or fatherhood. They always start with a little disclaimer.
[5:43]I love my children so much. But I need to tell you they're driving me crazy or I'm overwhelmed
[5:47]or I feel ineffective parenting them or how come, you know, it seems so easy with child number one.
[5:54]But now child number two is like I don't want to be around. And so I started hearing these narratives
[6:01]and experiences from moms and just giving them space to talk about it. When we do that,
[6:08]they can change. They can look at themselves and not go to this place of judgment. So
[6:14]in a nutshell, and you know, that's that's what the book is about. It's about the emotions that
[6:18]all of us mothers experience. I call them the shadow emotions and I do so intentionally. One
[6:25]inspired by Carl Young who talks about going to those places within ourselves. So we know where
[6:32]our pain is so we can have greater understanding and awareness. And so that was kind of the framework
[6:38]of what I wanted to do. I don't want to call emotions negative. Because when they're negative,
[6:43]we start judging ourselves. Oh, I shouldn't feel that. Well, we are feeling it. So either you're
[6:47]pushing it down. You're ignoring it. You're denying it. Or it's coming out in another way.
[6:52]If I can give space to those emotions, anger, sadness, disgust, embarrassment, shame, fear and worry.
[7:02]And let's call them shadow emotions, then we become curious about it. This is like an
[7:06]inside out the movie. Do you're, do you're kids seeing that? We have the books and each one of
[7:11]the books is like, shame, disgust, you enjoy. Anyway, just throwing that in. It's true. And I
[7:18]remember that movie coming out when this book was in process. And I thought, you know, we have to
[7:24]spell it out for ourselves too. It doesn't have to be so complicated. Wow. So what tips can you give
[7:29]to moms who are feeling this way? Like who can't maybe have a session with you, although that
[7:33]sounds like I want to sign up for, you know, how you scaled your services. What are some encouraging
[7:42]things or tips that you can share? Right. So the first thing that I think is important for moms
[7:47]is don't be afraid to allow yourself to feel. And so feel without judging. Just be curious.
[7:55]Almost like I live in Rhode Island. So the analogy I always use in therapy is, you know, you look at,
[8:00]when you're at the beach, you look at waves coming in and out. You're not really judging them.
[8:04]You're just observing them. Oh, that's a heavy surf or that's a lightweight or wow, look at
[8:09]it's a rough surf today or super calm. And I think if we start looking at our inner world like that,
[8:15]then we get out of that shame and judgment. So that's number one. And the number two, it's so
[8:21]important to physically take care of yourself. And, you know, again, it was interesting when I was
[8:27]the book. I went to a conference and I was talking to another parenting author. And I said,
[8:33]I really, you know, how did you kind of make a break into having your book published? And the advice
[8:39]I was given was wait until your kids are older to publish this book, which I remember responding to
[8:47]myself because I was tired. I was exhausted. Like I feel like I work all the time, but it
[8:51]brings me so much joy to write, that I said, you lose the essence if you're away from the moment
[8:58]of parenting to look back on it. So I feel like that's the voice that I really bring is that I'm
[9:03]in it right now. I'm doing the distant learning. I call it a COVID meltdown every afternoon. I
[9:08]had one right before I turned this on to meet with you. I'm sorry. I don't know. It's just life,
[9:14]right? Like, is like someone's always overwhelmed. So the step is just to allow yourself to feel
[9:21]to take care of your physical health, to get the sleep as exhausted as you may be, try to know what
[9:27]your amount of sleep you need, because when you sleep and arrested, then you can get better,
[9:33]you can access your coping skills, your thoughts feel a little clearer. And the third thing I think
[9:37]is so important, you know, because there's a lot of, with everyone at home right now, and I'm sure
[9:43]listeners can relate and we're starting to reopen the world a little bit, but there's not a lot
[9:47]of alone time for parents. So how do you get that self-care when you're with your kids now
[9:53]constantly in all these different roles? So what I say to parents and moms especially didn't
[9:58]watch the voices in your head.
[10:00]How are you talking to yourself? Be kind. Just like you talked to a friend, you know
[10:04]So those are some of the quick tips that I always like to remind you know moms to do and and also
[10:12]Don't get into this mindset that you have to be productive all the time
[10:15]And I think that's the piece that can be really overwhelming is you know the way I've been framing this time in the world is that if you lost a loved one
[10:25]You to allow yourself to breathe and you would scale back and have to just
[10:30]See it day by day. And so I'm doing a lot of that in sessions with clients and reminding myself that you know
[10:36]We're all grieving in our own way in different intensities
[10:39]So let go of that need to be productive. You know, maybe the most accomplished thing you can do is feed your family and get outside for a nice walk
[10:48]You know, it's actually easier for me to do like six podcasts in a day than it is to go on a walk
[10:52]I don't know something about I'm like, I know I should be going on walks everybody's going on walks
[10:59]Why am I not like on walks?
[11:01]Anyway, it's hard yesterday. I was in between a bunch of sessions
[11:05]And then I had to teach in the afternoon and I just needed to like it just felt so like
[11:11]Suffocating being in the in the house. I was like took my oldest girls teenagers their twin for eternal twins
[11:16]So this is go for a quick walk, you know, just to and I came back and I felt better
[11:20]So sometimes I think it's fun to be in that mode of just recording or being productive and then other times
[11:27]How older are all your girls?
[11:29]So my oldest are for eternal twins. They're 17 and a half. They're going to be they're finishing their junior year
[11:36]I have a soon to be seventh grader. She's 12 and then as soon to be fifth grader. She's 10. So
[11:46]We have a similar spread actually. It's very similar because I have
[11:49]Returnal twins also who are about to be 13 next week and then I have almost seven year old and a five and a half year old
[11:57]So oh, I'm all right. You are like in a couple of years
[12:01]It's amazing. It's a lot to juggle all those different developmental stages, but I think it's such a joy
[12:07]That's what you when you were saying about the surf coming in and watching the weather
[12:12]You know, this is a big wave and now it's a storm and da da like yeah, but I feel like I'm watching and I'll include my husband as
[12:19]Adorable as he is he has his everybody has moved. I'll include my own moods
[12:22]I have tons of mids. So that's all six of us with different tides and different you know
[12:27]We all like we're all crashing on the beach in different ways in different days. So it's a lot harder
[12:31]I feel like to manage
[12:33]All of our emotions where like someone's having a bad day and they're having a big storm and you don't even know
[12:40]Why it makes no sense because like the Hatchimal didn't open or whatever it is and you know the other prisons
[12:44]It said because of something bigger like some friends such and such
[12:48]I don't know and then you have to manage all of it as the mom, right?
[12:50]You have to or some dads too. I'm sure just like how do you deal with all of it at once?
[12:56]Right, it's so true and that's the human part of it, right?
[12:59]So we can have these like
[13:01]ideals, but then what does that look like as you just describe and
[13:05]So what we do in our family and I think I've coached the girls
[13:09]Pretty well sometimes it's not effective
[13:11]But I always say you have a right to every feeling
[13:14]But you don't have a right to take it out on someone. So that's a message. I say oh you seem pretty angry like you know
[13:21]You're not being kind with your words like do you need a break or I'll model that you know girls. I am
[13:28]So tired. I am feeling really sad. I'm just a little quieter tonight
[13:33]So it's about like labeling identifying and then
[13:37]Making that conscious effort. How are we going to treat each other right now?
[13:41]You know and giving them permission to go take a break like I'm not being disrespectful
[13:46]Like for example one of the girls like you know you're yelling and you're not being nice to your sister
[13:52]And I'm wondering what we can do about that
[13:54]What do you need in giving her permission to go to her room and just take care of herself?
[13:59]Instead of why are you feeling that way?
[14:01]Why are you being so mean to your sister or you're the older one you shouldn't?
[14:04]Okay, like we need to pause and take a break. It's not kind right now
[14:09]You know, so that's kind of this message that I repeat some days. It's more effective
[14:17]Like meltdown right before we started but that's life right yeah
[14:21]I feel like with so much time with the kids now especially as I know all of us are home with the kids
[14:26]It's like I keep trying different things
[14:29]Emotionally and just seeing like okay, I'm gonna try this like today
[14:33]I'm in the mind so where I can try this tool that I've read about like today
[14:36]I'm gonna you know and and also just not being able to hide my own emotions like as I'm sure with you like well
[14:41]Here we are like I can't you know
[14:44]Say I'll be back in 20 minutes. Not that I used to do that so often
[14:47]But there's just like no hiding it right like they see if I'm crying
[14:50]They're seeing me crying so I might as well say you know moms get sad too, so
[14:55]Exactly and I think that's a beautiful thing you do is to
[14:59]normalize that feelings happen and and it's I think when feelings are pushed away
[15:06]Repressed ignored judged then you feel shame for feeling them. Yeah
[15:11]You know like it's okay for parents and especially moms right now
[15:15]You know where moms are carrying them the mental load of this pandemic
[15:19]It's just that's what we're seeing
[15:21]it's like moms are so overwhelmed and
[15:24]That's not because they're ineffective. That's not because they're doing something wrong
[15:28]It's because what we're living through so you know, it's constant and
[15:33]It's okay to have those feelings. This is what are you gonna do about that and
[15:38]So the book it was it was interesting. You know, it's it's all about like the way I organized it
[15:44]Is looking over those five big emotions, you know that we talked about earlier and then breaking them down
[15:50]Kind of on a continuum so a mom can pick up the book and say okay today
[15:54]I'm feeling irritable and I'm feeling frustrated and she can go to this section in the book and read about it
[16:01]What does that look like in motherhood? What are some of those thoughts?
[16:04]She may be saying to herself and then I give tools and instructions on one number one in this book
[16:10]You'll see that my writing is all about compassion all about taking care of what's going on inside and healing
[16:17]Whatever that may be the messages received going up from a partner from society and so she can see like okay
[16:23]I can manage my thought so if I'm saying this
[16:26]Here's a healthy way to say that here's moving from the shadow into
[16:31]Driving so there's the cognitive piece and then there's like steps
[16:35]You know that that she can do whether it be reaching for support journaling
[16:40]Talking to a counselor. I have little meditation at the end called the thriving mama reflection
[16:45]And just an encouraging way to just be compassionate about yourself
[16:49]When you feel it so it's not a book that I intended for moms to read
[16:54]You know front to cover. It's almost like a resource if I'm in a moment
[16:58]And I want to just get in the car and go but there's nowhere to go
[17:01]And I just pick up and find labeled the emotion I'm feeling and read about it. That was my goal
[17:06]That's awesome. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors now? Do you have a book out in the world?
[17:12]Yes, so I appreciate that question so much. So yes, if you are an aspiring writer and writing
[17:19]One right as often as you can to don't wait for someone to give you permission to write
[17:24]So just just write and then take risks and continue to have that grit. My book
[17:31]It was interesting. So what you'll see is this lovely cover and lovely
[17:36]Message inside but what readers and listeners may not know is that it was rejected
[17:41]I think 24 times over the course of
[17:45]Four years and so I have a wonderful
[17:48]literary agent Regina Brock set serendipity literary agency and
[17:52]She believed in me and so that really helped I had her in my corner
[17:56]But the messages we always received was the world's not ready for a book this honest
[18:02]and
[18:03]She held fast that hope for me and as did my my husband and friends and children and
[18:10]Parents and and so that gave me the courage because it felt worse not to write then to or to give up on writing
[18:17]The not to write if that makes sense
[18:19]Totally so for me it was like I just kept on believing and
[18:23]Regrouping and it when I had those rejections were hard. I mean, there was one
[18:27]Moment at the dinner table in 2018
[18:29]We'd come back from a trip to California visiting family
[18:33]and I got in my last rejection and I sat at that table with my husband and the girls
[18:39]I said I think it's time to give up writing and I sat with it and then of course
[18:43]Like how writers, you know, author's writers write like then they get an idea
[18:48]Oh my goodness. I want to ignore that idea not right and
[18:51]I looked at my husband. I said you got to take the kids for four hours
[18:54]Like I literally have to write something and I can't not write it
[18:58]and that was an excerpt
[19:00]No submitted to motherly
[19:03]That Diana Spalding said Claire. I love this so much
[19:06]Can I put it in our motherly guide to becoming mama?
[19:09]So that felt like the universe was like, okay Claire
[19:12]I know you wanted to give up
[19:14]But you kept going and and so for me
[19:16]It was just listening to getting quiet and listening as a writer in spite of the rejections if that makes sense
[19:23]Of course it is. That's awesome and that's such an inspiring story
[19:26]I mean you hear it like oh it takes a lot to get it published
[19:29]But you know hearing your story and it's not like you know rejection hurts and there's always
[19:35]You know there's so many times when it for every book
[19:37]Think of all the authors who did give up and they're not out there right so it's just the books that weren't
[19:43]The books that weren't and that's the piece too
[19:45]But I would say that any aspiring author is your voice is what makes you the writer
[19:51]And so don't try to be like anybody else's voice
[19:54]Some of the feedback we received is oh my gosh, we'll buy Claire's book, but we think it's too heavy
[20:00]we'd rather it be funnier.
[20:02]And so I remember having these conversations
[20:05]with my literary agent Regina,
[20:07]and she's like, Claire, you gotta be true who you are.
[20:09]Like, you can't be funnier.
[20:11]You can't be indignant.
[20:12]Like, you are you, and this is your voice.
[20:15]And, you know, so I think that's the other piece
[20:17]is don't give in to be open to feedback
[20:21]but don't give up who you are as a writer and your voice.
[20:24]That's great advice.
[20:25]Well, thank you so much.
[20:26]I'm glad we connected.
[20:28]I'm gonna go back now
[20:28]and read all the results of my quiz
[20:30]from your website, Dr. Claire Nikogazian.
[20:33]And thank you.
[20:34]Thank you for all your tips
[20:35]and thanks for helping so many moms out there.
[20:37]Well, thank you, Zibi.
[20:38]I appreciate talking to you today.
[20:39]This was a lot of fun.
[20:40]Thanks.
[20:41]I hope the COVID situation,
[20:42]the COVID meltdown pre-archal has been resolved
[20:45]by the time you walk out of the room.
[20:47]Thank you.
[20:48]Thank you.
[20:48]I'm optimistic.
[20:50]Bye.
[20:51]Bye.
[20:52]I hope you enjoyed this episode of Advice Monday
[20:55]on the July book blast.
[20:57]I know that some of these were from the quarantine
[20:59]and some might seem even old
[21:01]even though they've just come out
[21:02]but I just had to get them out in one big sweep
[21:04]and I hope that you've gotten some useful life tips
[21:07]as you've listened today.
[21:09]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[21:11]Moms don't have time to read books.
[21:13]If you liked this episode,
[21:14]please follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[21:18]and at Moms don't have time to read books
[21:20]and sign up for my mailing list at zibi Owens.com
[21:23]so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[21:26]Thanks a lot.
[21:26]Thanks so much to page one books for sponsoring today's episode.
[21:29]I hope you'll all check out my summer beach bundle
[21:32]at page one books.com.
[21:33]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[21:36]for the sound editing
[21:37]and thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[21:39]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[21:42]Thanks for listening.
[21:43]You could always email me at zibi at zibi Owens.com.