Brandy Ferner, ADULT CONVERSATION
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[1:08]yourself. Everybody needs a treat without a long spring. PageOneBooks.com. Hi, today's day two of my
[1:15]July book last, which I started yesterday with memoir Mondays. Today is debut Tuesdays, and I'm going
[1:21]to be featuring a number of incredible debut authors whose books have come out during the quarantine,
[1:27]or around this time, or our great beach reads, and things you should definitely start reading now.
[1:33]I will be doing this for 10 days in July with lots and lots of episodes so that you all can
[1:37]enjoy it while it's still the summer. I hope you enjoy today's debut Tuesday. Listen to all of
[1:43]them, or some of them, and spread the word. Brandi Furnner is the author of adult conversation and
[1:48]novel. She is a mother, wife, and the creator of the adult conversation podcast, social media pages,
[1:53]and blog. Her writing has been featured in Good Morning America, of Post-Romeber Cafe Mom Today
[1:58]Parents and more. In addition to writing and fulfilling her kids, endless snack requests,
[2:03]she spent the best decade working as a doula, childbirth educator, and birth trauma mentor,
[2:08]ushering clients through the intense transition into motherhood. The insight gained from watching
[2:12]mom's crack wide open, her words literally and figuratively, and her own experience as an independent
[2:17]woman who suddenly traded autonomy for snuggles, led her to say out loud the things that modern
[2:22]mothers are thinking. Sometimes it's serious, sometimes it's comedic, but it's always honest.
[2:27]She currently lives in Southern California, and her love language is sleep. Hi Brandi,
[2:31]thanks for coming on mom's. Don't have time to read books. Hi, thank you. I don't know maybe this
[2:36]episode should be titled mom's. Do moms have time to listen to podcasts as well? Because as a
[2:40]fellow podcaster, I'm like, where, where is the time for being in the car and having a loan time,
[2:47]so I feel like us moms are having a time right now with both things. To be honest with you,
[2:52]when I look at my download numbers, I'm like, how are people finding the time to listen to this?
[2:58]How are they doing it? Because I need to find the time to do it too. They're locking themselves
[3:02]in a bathroom with a screaming child. I mean, I'm grateful to get me wrong. Thank you, everybody
[3:07]for listening. Thank you. Thank you. Keith, listening. I'm impressed and so grateful, but yeah, I feel
[3:13]that there is no time. Well, first of all, it's not just for moms to show at all, but yes, I think
[3:17]particularly now there is so little time. Yes. Although I feel like things are kind of lifting.
[3:22]Yeah. You know, getting a little. Yes. Maybe. I don't know what we don't know. Who knows what is happening?
[3:29]So so much to talk to you about. I want to talk to you about your book, Adele conversation,
[3:32]which basically was like you were in my brain for a while saying a lot of things that I would think
[3:37]except you wrote them. But tell me first about your podcast and how you even got got to the
[3:42]stage where you wrote the book. Yeah, I cannot totally remember. I think the book may have come before
[3:47]the podcast. But as you know, the bookwriting process is, it can be a year's long thing. So I just
[3:54]had these messages about motherhood talking about the real stuff. Like you said, the things that
[3:59]are in your head that you aren't saying. I sort of have a history of saying those things. And I
[4:05]just it was like this fire under me that I needed to I needed to write this thing. And I needed
[4:11]to speak openly about these atrocities and all of the tangledness that we all think and feel
[4:18]but we don't feel comfortable saying. So I started doing that with the book and then that was a
[4:22]process and getting it published and all of that. So meanwhile, I wanted to do the podcast to
[4:27]actually verbally talk about the things, many of which are the same topics on the podcast and the
[4:32]book. So it was like I had to attack it from all different angles. But I truly felt there was a
[4:38]fire under me that needed to get these messages across really to help free other moms who feel like
[4:45]they're broken. The whole reason I wrote it is because I wanted moms to know you're not broken.
[4:51]Motherhood is broken in these ways. And it's also beautiful in these other ways. But I just know
[4:57]what it feels like to be in our isolated little homes every single day. And to be wondering,
[5:03]should this be easier? How did I not know there was so much resistance that came with all of
[5:09]the joyous moments? And then wondering, should I have done this? Like am I built for this? All of
[5:15]that kind of stuff I really wanted to explore in the book, which I did at Great Length.
[5:21]And have you just had people thanking you right and left and coming out at the woodwork and saying
[5:25]that they've never been able to say these types of things before? Yeah, it's been pretty amazing.
[5:31]When I started this whole thing, I never wanted to be an author. I've always been a writer,
[5:36]but I never had this idea that I would write a book. So one day, I had an 18-month-old
[5:41]was my youngest, my oldest, I think at that time was maybe almost eight. I remember sitting in
[5:46]the kitchen and I got this idea, what would happen if two moms were totally fed up and they went to
[5:52]Vegas? Like what would moms really do? At the end of their rope, what they cheat, what they do
[5:58]drugs? Would they just lay in a bed alone with no one touching them? Like what would they do?
[6:05]And then I got this idea of, well, what if one of them was the therapist? Because I was feeling like
[6:11]we're all in a sense, we're all trying to figure out how to do this life and motherhood thing.
[6:16]So I liked the idea that this therapist brought so much to the main character, April,
[6:21]but she's human too. And so then the roles sort of reverse in the middle of it.
[6:26]So I just, all of those things made me feel excited. And I thought, I can't write a book.
[6:31]I have almost two-year-old. And we really couldn't afford childcare easily at the time. And so I
[6:38]kind of put the idea away. I thought, I can't write this. There's no way I'm not an author. And then I
[6:44]couldn't sleep for an entire week. And I was up at night taking notes, plot stuff coming through.
[6:49]I mean, it just poured out of me. So finally, after a week, I was like, all right, I will write
[6:55]this so that I can get my life back. And that's what I did. And did it make you feel better to get
[7:01]it out? Oh, yeah. That was therapy for me. I mean, you know, as a writer too, that first draft
[7:08]was my cathartic therapy. It was just the vomit of everything I'd wanted to say. And then I went
[7:13]through and thought, you know, did the cleanup many times of like, okay, well, what now will help
[7:18]other people and what is my own neurosis, which some of my own neurosis still shows up in the book,
[7:22]which I think is relatable. But yeah, so to have people then contact me. So that was my idea at
[7:27]the beginning was I just want to write this to get this message out to other people whom it will
[7:33]help. And so to have that now it's so satisfying to have people who've read it, contact me. I mean,
[7:40]I get them almost every day. Oh my gosh, I'm in the middle of your book. I've thought all of these
[7:44]things. I've never said them. I thought I was alone. I had somebody contact me the other day. My
[7:49]husband's rating your book because he wants to know how he can help more. I mean, it's like,
[7:53]oh, that's nice. So I mean, what else could I want? That that was my goal and the people who I
[7:58]wrote this book for seem to be satisfied. Like, I mean, it's amazing. And so now when you go back to
[8:05]like the times where you're just with the kids and full on mom, dumb, is it all more bearable?
[8:13]Not to say, you know, it wasn't like amazing, you know, it wasn't always amazing. No, those
[8:20]intense ages are intense. And my character sort of goes through some of this in the book as well.
[8:26]But my kids now are six and 13. And I don't know how I would have managed a quarantine with
[8:33]anyone younger. Like, even five would have been a challenge toddlers preschoolers.
[8:38]I don't know how I would have done it. So the kids growing up has definitely made things easier on
[8:43]me. They're more independent. And so yeah, I mean, I feel like I got out what I wanted to get
[8:49]out about that. And then now I have things in my head, an idea for a sequel, sort of an outline
[8:54]of a sequel of what is April, the main character. What is it like to have a kindergartener and also
[8:59]a middle schooler when you're talking about crayons and also vaping? Like, those are two very
[9:03]different things. So this is my life because I have exactly this. I have twins who are
[9:08]going to be 13 next week. And then I have almost seven year old and a five and a half year old.
[9:13]So this is literally like, I keep going back and forth. And I'm like, I can't believe I'm having
[9:18]this conversation. And then this conversation. Like, it almost like is so surreal that it makes the
[9:25]whole thing kind of funny. And then I can't feel a stress. You know, I mean, like, it's so absurd. The
[9:29]absurdity of it takes some of the stress away. It's true, totally. But yeah, it's, I mean,
[9:35]and I feel like with writing this book, I end with a podcast, I didn't have a place to put all
[9:41]of the things that I felt. And now I have outlets for those things. So I'm a happier person. They
[9:47]are my form of therapy. And my hope was that by being true about my form of therapy and saying
[9:53]these these honest things that it would be other people's a form of therapy for other people.
[9:59]so.
[10:00]I mean, I'm just, and I, even with the podcast,
[10:03]the episodes that I do, I get messages from people
[10:05]and it's just, it's everything.
[10:07]It's amazing to be able to tend to myself
[10:10]while tending to other people, like win, win.
[10:12]And tell listeners what your podcast is
[10:14]so they can go check it out.
[10:15]So the podcast is called The Same as My Book Adult Conversation.
[10:18]And we cover real topics, our very first one.
[10:23]I think I've, two episodes I've gotten the most feedback
[10:27]on, but the first one is called Behind the Curtain of Motherhood.
[10:31]And me and a friend get real real.
[10:33]And people were like, oh my gosh, you're saying the things.
[10:37]You're saying the things like, why does my husband
[10:39]get to go for a run when we have a baby?
[10:41]And I don't.
[10:42]And every time he says, I'm gonna go for a run,
[10:44]I wanna smash his face in, but then I feel guilty.
[10:48]But why does he get the run?
[10:49]And then he gets a shower after the run every day
[10:52]when I haven't had a shower in a week.
[10:54]So all of those things that you think
[10:56]this was just my house, like no, it's all of our houses.
[10:59]We have the run theory.
[11:01]It's like an actual thing.
[11:02]So that episode and then I interviewed a woman named Darcy Lockman.
[11:06]She wrote a book called All the Rage.
[11:08]I interviewed her too.
[11:09]That book blew my mind.
[11:11]And so that felt like a non-fiction version of my book.
[11:16]And my book hadn't come out of the time.
[11:18]So she and I have a great, really candid conversation.
[11:21]So those two episodes I feel like really let people know
[11:25]that we are talking about real talk here.
[11:28]That's awesome.
[11:29]There are so many scenes in the book
[11:30]and so many quotes that I underlined.
[11:33]After a while, I was like, you know what?
[11:34]I just don't think I can keep turning up with that.
[11:36]I just don't know.
[11:38]Here's one, for instance.
[11:39]I am interrupted during every task
[11:41]and pulled in different directions
[11:42]by whoever needs me that minute.
[11:43]It's like I'm on a short leash in my family
[11:46]are the ones holding it.
[11:47]I don't feel depressed or whatever I think
[11:49]depressed is supposed to feel.
[11:50]But I also don't enjoy being with my beautiful
[11:52]and needy children, namely my toddler,
[11:54]for 13 hours straight, every single day for years on end.
[11:57]While my husband has a career
[11:58]and gets to shit alone in a building with only adults.
[12:01]So I guess I just want to know
[12:02]if what I'm feeling is normal
[12:03]or if I'm a whiny and grateful bitch,
[12:05]you should just make peace with motherhood and be happy.
[12:07]And that was her first when she goes to therapy
[12:11]when they're like, so what do you want to talk about?
[12:13]She's like, yeah, she's like, this is it.
[12:16]This is what I want to talk about.
[12:18]And this idea about that part reminds me of this idea
[12:21]about postpartum depression.
[12:23]I think motherhood and depression look really similar.
[12:27]Motherhood and anxiety look really similar.
[12:29]So what I want one of the character April to be figuring out
[12:33]is like, is there something wrong with me?
[12:34]Do I have a mental illness?
[12:36]But really, I don't feel depressed.
[12:39]What I really want is basic human rights
[12:41]that mothers give up.
[12:43]So that part really illustrates that, yeah.
[12:47]There's definitely a difference between
[12:48]being depressed with the capital D
[12:51]and just unhappy.
[12:53]And like, yeah, it's happy in your life.
[12:56]And those are different things.
[12:57]You don't need necessarily medical intervention,
[12:59]but you definitely need something.
[13:01]Exactly.
[13:02]Anti-depressant is gonna fix a situation
[13:04]that is fundamentally flawed, not that motherhood is.
[13:07]But if there's something, if you're not getting
[13:09]the support or whatever you need.
[13:11]I would say that modern motherhood is fundamentally flawed
[13:14]just as we've seen in so many different ways,
[13:16]just with the systems that aren't there to support us.
[13:19]So we are doing, we fill in the gaps of every broken system.
[13:23]So when our schools suck,
[13:25]or there are things that aren't being offered at our schools,
[13:27]who shows up to do those, us moms.
[13:29]So food, our food supply, when our food supply isn't good,
[13:33]who shows up to make sure that our kids
[13:34]are getting something better.
[13:36]So we are filling all of the broken systems
[13:38]instead of fighting to get the broken systems fixed.
[13:41]So we can just be mom.
[13:43]We are everything.
[13:44]And it's exhausting.
[13:45]It's not how it was meant to be.
[13:48]I feel like, especially during this time,
[13:51]this profound, when you literally had no village,
[13:54]should depend on it all, it was a complete familial isolation.
[13:58]And this is hard.
[14:01]Totally so hard.
[14:02]And everything is illuminated.
[14:04]Like the gender inequality as well,
[14:06]I think a lot of couples have had that show up really big,
[14:10]is it just expected that the woman is going to do all
[14:13]of the schooling, all of the meals that now everybody has to do.
[14:17]And in some households, that's true.
[14:20]And in some households, it's not.
[14:21]But there's no looking away anymore.
[14:23]It's in your face.
[14:25]And all of the distractions that we normally
[14:26]have to go through life, where we cannot really think about it
[14:30]or go get take out or whatever.
[14:31]It's like, no, now everything is being illuminated.
[14:35]So I think whatever issues people had in their relationships,
[14:39]and I'll even include friendships in this,
[14:40]but their marriage right now is being accelerated.
[14:44]Like all of that, we're seeing,
[14:46]do our relationships bear the weight of this time.
[14:49]And so we're all finding out if they do or not.
[14:52]And as you're just doing, mine's actually doing great.
[14:54]I did a podcast actually with my husband
[14:57]that was two episodes ago.
[14:59]And I asked him for Mother's Day.
[15:00]I said, all I want is for you to come on the podcast.
[15:02]And I want to ask you honestly, what
[15:04]is it like to have a wife who writes about topics such as dad
[15:08]privilege, who is fighting against the patriarchy,
[15:11]and who is outspoken about this stuff?
[15:14]And our interview blew my mind.
[15:16]I mean, he's a unicorn anyway.
[15:17]He's like amazing.
[15:19]But I expected him to have way more issue than what he did.
[15:24]And he opened up, and it was kind of mind blowing.
[15:27]So I'll just leave you just wet your whistle with that.
[15:32]I did something very similar.
[15:33]I did it like an Instagram live recently with my husband,
[15:35]who's my second husband and not,
[15:37]and the stepfather told me he's good.
[15:39]But I was like, you have to come on.
[15:41]Like, what do you really think about this?
[15:42]Like, because I can get nightmare, but anyway.
[15:45]And what was he like, yeah, you're a nightmare?
[15:47]Or was he like, I love you?
[15:50]He was pretty good.
[15:51]Yeah, he's very sweet.
[15:52]But he lets me, I mean, he does it in a funny way
[15:56]when he points out when I'm being like, that's
[15:59]the whole difference, right?
[16:00]Right.
[16:00]When you can't see it yourself, and the person you're
[16:04]acting out in front of can react like, they
[16:07]can escalate it by like getting in it, right?
[16:10]Like, you're snapping at me like, I'm going to snap back at you,
[16:12]or you could be like, all right.
[16:14]Well, nice to see you're, you know, losing your mind
[16:18]early this morning, you know, sorry, I missed the last hour.
[16:21]So that's a lot better.
[16:22]Humor always helps anything go down.
[16:25]I'm on his side on that, yeah.
[16:27]This is the last quote I'll read when Erin finds out
[16:30]that she's seeing a therapist.
[16:31]She says, you're seeing a therapist.
[16:33]Why?
[16:33]And she says, I'm blanking on her name right now.
[16:36]What is her name?
[16:36]Oh, April.
[16:37]Because I feel like I'm going to snap.
[16:39]I'm not doing this mother thing right.
[16:41]And he says, wait, what?
[16:42]But you're a kick ass mother.
[16:43]And she says, thanks, babe.
[16:45]But I'm not doubting what kind of a mother I am to our kids.
[16:47]I'm doubting what being that kind of mother is doing to me.
[16:50]And that's like the whole thing, right?
[16:54]Yeah.
[16:55]Oh my gosh, it's so, I feel like such an idiot.
[16:58]But I get chills at those parts.
[16:59]I still read this and I remember what it felt like to write it
[17:04]and the feelings that were so visceral.
[17:06]And I remember I was in my daughter's room.
[17:08]We don't have a big house and I ended up hiring a babysitter
[17:11]that was like 10 bucks an hour.
[17:13]And I would sit in my daughter's room
[17:15]in the fuzzy green glider from the book and just type away.
[17:19]And it was, I would just pour myself out onto the page.
[17:22]I mean, a lot of times I would be in tears.
[17:24]And then when my two hours were up, I would come out
[17:26]and go back into the mom role.
[17:27]And I later was like, I'm so grateful
[17:30]that I wrote that book while in the trenches of motherhood
[17:33]because everybody's told me like this is the most
[17:36]realistic depiction of this.
[17:38]But also it's kind of insanity producing to,
[17:44]in your time off from being a mom
[17:47]to then go right about the hardships of being a mom.
[17:50]Because then I actually didn't get any time to myself.
[17:53]But I felt like I was, but I was getting therapy.
[17:56]So it was this funny thing where I'd have the scene
[17:59]like the pop up shop scene where there's just pandemonium
[18:03]and a mom getting slapped.
[18:04]And then I would come out of it down to my kids
[18:06]who were begging me for snacks.
[18:07]And I would be like, why am I doing this?
[18:10]And it's like it was all, it's all material, right?
[18:13]Like my friend says it's right.
[18:14]Yes.
[18:15]And that's I think what is part of what made this book
[18:18]so relatable.
[18:18]It's like, especially the bedtime stuff.
[18:21]I mean, and just bedtime when you're like down,
[18:24]you're just on your last leg.
[18:26]And then like it just won't end.
[18:27]Like the kid comes out again.
[18:29]You're like, no, anyway, just all the thoughts
[18:31]really validating in a way,
[18:33]like some of them, so anyway.
[18:35]Yeah.
[18:36]So what's coming next for you?
[18:38]Oh, gosh, this is a,
[18:41]oh, well, it's funny because there's so much
[18:44]as you know so much anticipation when your book comes out.
[18:46]And especially I'd written it a couple of years ago,
[18:49]but then trying to get it published is its own process.
[18:53]And so then how long that takes.
[18:55]So I had been working on this.
[18:57]It had been, I'd been birthing this for like four or five years.
[19:00]So I'm now a month out on the other side.
[19:03]And I love it because I don't have a thing in the back
[19:07]of my head that's like one more thing for me to do.
[19:09]So, but my personality is such that I always have ideas.
[19:13]I just don't have enough time to do them.
[19:15]So I'm always working on like five things.
[19:17]You know, you and I had sort of talked before
[19:19]about being one of those people who has ideas
[19:21]and then actually, you know, follows through with them.
[19:23]So I've been torn a little bit on,
[19:27]it was like the day after my book launched,
[19:29]I was like, what do I do?
[19:31]And this voice in my head was like,
[19:32]this is the time that you enjoy, Brandy.
[19:35]Like this is the time where you just get to chill.
[19:37]And then this other voice was like, no, no, no, no, no.
[19:39]This is the time you have to hustle even harder.
[19:42]So I was in a tug of war in my own head for at least
[19:46]that first week.
[19:47]And now I've leaned into enjoying not hustling for it.
[19:52]So having said that, I have an agent who is working on
[19:57]trying to get my sequel picked up, but actually.
[20:00]There's something that I haven't talked about.
[20:01]And I've been toying with how to talk about it
[20:04]or if I should talk about it.
[20:05]And I feel like I'm just going to-
[20:06]Talk about it.
[20:06]I'm going to talk about it with you
[20:08]because I feel like you're my people who will understand it.
[20:11]So adult conversation is published by an indie publisher,
[20:15]named She Rights.
[20:17]And so I had a hard time getting this book picked up.
[20:21]I think because it was about a mom, specifically
[20:24]a stay-at-home mom.
[20:25]And I learned over these past and still
[20:27]continue to learn that there is such a bias against mothers.
[20:31]I knew this.
[20:32]You feel it in the world.
[20:34]So I was so happy when She Rights picked it up.
[20:37]And they were this indie feminist press.
[20:40]And it was the perfect place for it.
[20:41]So my agent right now is trying to see
[20:44]if we can get a big five publisher to pick up adult conversation,
[20:48]to have a bigger distribution, and then also
[20:51]sell the sequel, which I have outlined,
[20:53]which I'm super excited about.
[20:54]But also I'm enjoying my break.
[20:57]OK, here's the hard part that I haven't talked about.
[21:01]The people in the publishing world who
[21:03]make the decisions on which books to green light,
[21:08]most of them have never had to be April.
[21:11]So what I'm finding is it's incredibly difficult
[21:15]to get a story picked up by people who
[21:20]have a bias against a certain group of people,
[21:24]stay at home mothers.
[21:25]So then the other piece of this, too,
[21:27]is I had a film producer reach out to me.
[21:29]And my book was in a New York Times article back in February.
[21:33]So I had a producer reach out who said,
[21:35]this sounds your book sounds really interesting.
[21:36]I'd love to read it.
[21:37]Maybe we want to make a movie of it.
[21:39]So he read it.
[21:42]Thankfully, he loved it.
[21:43]So I wrote a screenplay adaptation of it
[21:45]with a little bit of change.
[21:47]And so we're getting the same thing from Hollywood,
[21:50]which is, again, the people in the high up positions.
[21:54]And there's, of course, there's
[21:56]a totally a layer of like it's not right
[21:58]or they produce a book or a movie like it
[22:00]or they think the writing is shit or whatever.
[22:02]So I'm not saying that this is the only reason.
[22:05]I just find it interesting that the same issue
[22:08]that I had finding an original publisher,
[22:10]I'm having a hard time finding a second publisher
[22:13]and then somebody in Hollywood to pick it up.
[22:16]And I'm just noticing that it feels like there is a bias.
[22:20]And so my producer and I were even talking about,
[22:22]well, maybe we write April to be a working mom
[22:25]because people value working moms
[22:27]because they bring in money.
[22:29]And I'm so against that because it's like,
[22:32]it goes against everything that my book stands for,
[22:35]which is why do we have to earn money
[22:38]in order to be able to get basic human rights and equality?
[22:42]And yet I keep coming up against this same hurdle,
[22:47]which is apparently we do or there's just some miss there.
[22:51]But so I'm just trying to grapple
[22:53]with what that's all about.
[22:55]Part of me thinks am I never gonna break
[22:58]through this unless people change their minds
[23:02]about motherhood and about moms?
[23:05]I don't know, I know there's other books
[23:06]that have been published on the topic,
[23:08]but it's like you tell people you wrote a book
[23:09]about motherhood and people immediately roll their eyes.
[23:12]So that's not a good starting point, right?
[23:14]So, and some of the publishers,
[23:16]like some of the notes that we had gotten back
[23:18]were somebody said, you know,
[23:20]I just can't relate to the character.
[23:23]And it's just an interesting thing
[23:24]because it's like I read books about people,
[23:26]I can't relate, I'm not an addict.
[23:28]So, but I love to read stories
[23:30]about people who went through addiction.
[23:32]And so I just find it interesting.
[23:34]And it reminds me of, and I keep saying this,
[23:37]and I'm maybe I'm wrong, but that's why I'm gonna say it,
[23:39]is I think in some cases people
[23:42]have women specifically have baggage about their own choices.
[23:47]So a lot of the people in higher up positions
[23:49]in Hollywood that are women in Hollywood
[23:52]and in the publishing industry chose not to have children
[23:55]and have careers.
[23:57]And I think that sometimes reading literature
[24:00]about the choice they didn't make,
[24:02]and then having to have compassion for a character
[24:06]who made a choice they didn't and is struggling with it,
[24:08]I don't think is there.
[24:10]And again, I could be wrong on that,
[24:11]but some of the notes that we've gotten back
[24:13]about people not being able to relate to or whatever.
[24:15]It reminds me of with my daughter
[24:18]with my second pregnancy, I was in the hospital
[24:21]for two months because she was high risk.
[24:23]And so I had a team of five high risk obese.
[24:26]There were two women and three men.
[24:28]And I thought I would love the women
[24:30]because they were moms,
[24:31]they'd been there, they know what all the parts do.
[24:34]I was like, I can relate to them.
[24:36]The funny thing was is they would never listen to my questions.
[24:40]And I looked and, but the men were,
[24:42]it was like they had no baggage,
[24:43]but it was like every question I asked my women obese,
[24:48]they were like, well, when I was pregnant, blah, blah, blah.
[24:50]So it was like they had this, their story,
[24:52]what my questions or my choices meant for their story,
[24:56]whereas the guys didn't bring any of that.
[24:58]So I would ask them all sorts of questions about things
[25:02]and they would answer them and they would entertain them
[25:04]whereas it felt very condescending from the women.
[25:08]So I'm still figuring out this theory
[25:10]and seeing where there are holes and what's what,
[25:13]but it's definitely something I'm experiencing
[25:15]which feels very ironic with the book that I wrote
[25:19]to then be a stay at home, but working part-time mom
[25:24]who's trying to get to the next level,
[25:26]but is finding hurdle after hurdle in this way.
[25:29]It's a little bit of raging.
[25:30]But I also know that it can take time.
[25:32]So that's my big long rant that I haven't really talked about
[25:35]but have been really feeling over the past four months.
[25:38]Well, it sounds like that person could also be a character
[25:41]in a book.
[25:41]This whole thing could be a book, it could be a book about this.
[25:44]It could be, but it probably wouldn't get published, right?
[25:47]That's like, I'm talking about this real stuff.
[25:50]And then in my husband said the funniest thing
[25:53]when I was talking to him about this, he goes,
[25:55]but you're platinum in the streets
[25:56]and that's all that matters because he's like,
[25:58]the people you wrote this for, love it.
[26:00]You're getting these great reviews
[26:01]and you get people mentioning messaging you all the time.
[26:05]And so what if like the higher ups don't know
[26:07]that there's value in it or whatever?
[26:09]And that's true.
[26:10]So I'm having to make peace with like,
[26:12]or I'm just trying to set myself up for like,
[26:15]what if this doesn't get picked up further
[26:18]and all of that kind of stuff
[26:19]that authors go through anyway?
[26:21]So I'm just trying to parse out like,
[26:22]what's part of the process that can take years?
[26:25]And then what of it is actually like a bias
[26:28]about a certain group of people?
[26:30]So and I don't totally know,
[26:31]but I know that I feel something that is related to that
[26:35]with in both worlds and the Hollywood world
[26:37]and also in the publishing world.
[26:40]Very interesting.
[26:41]Yeah. Thank you for sharing.
[26:41]Yeah, thanks for opening up.
[26:43]Yeah, of course.
[26:45]I haven't been through this process or,
[26:47]I mean, I know you're looking for another publisher,
[26:49]but you have a great, I mean, it's already out here.
[26:51]It's in my hands for the us of what advice would you have
[26:54]to aspiring authors?
[26:56]Gosh, well, first of all, you have to have perseverance,
[26:58]which I think I've just talked a lot about.
[27:02]It's a long road.
[27:03]And so that actually goes back to,
[27:05]I think my number one piece of advice for people
[27:07]is to have a message that you're passionate about
[27:10]because this process requires so much of you
[27:14]and so much perseverance.
[27:16]And if you're not excited about your material
[27:18]or feel like people need to hear this,
[27:21]then what is going to push you to keep going
[27:23]even when you get beaten down time after time?
[27:26]Like I get rejections almost every day from,
[27:28]oh, we have another publisher that rejected,
[27:30]you know, this part or this part
[27:32]or we have another director that reject.
[27:33]And it's like, the only thing that keeps me going
[27:37]is that I know that my message is helpful.
[27:39]And so that's what I would say to aspiring writers
[27:42]is what is that thing that you need to say
[27:46]and that you are the perfect person to say it?
[27:48]I mean, things have been said over and over,
[27:51]but what is your specific gift?
[27:52]How are you going to talk about this,
[27:54]that nobody's talked about it before?
[27:56]And how are you going to bring the passion behind it?
[27:58]And because I don't want to read a book
[28:00]by somebody who wasn't passionate about their message,
[28:03]I want to read a book by somebody who was like,
[28:07]I'm willing to be rejected for five years
[28:09]to get my message out.
[28:11]So I would say that it takes tenacity
[28:13]and perseverance and luck,
[28:15]all of these sorts of things.
[28:17]And to just make sure that you have your own belief
[28:21]and your own message.
[28:22]I mean, there's so many things.
[28:24]The other thing I would say is
[28:25]Anne Lamott's Bookbird by Bird,
[28:27]that is the greatest gift I was ever given
[28:30]for writing.
[28:30]And that's a great place to start
[28:32]for people who were overwhelmed
[28:34]like I was when I first started.
[28:36]I had Anne Lamott on my podcast.
[28:38]Oh, you're so lucky.
[28:40]You know, I reached out for her for a blurb.
[28:42]I mean, there was no way.
[28:44]I was just doing it because what did I have to lose
[28:46]and she actually responded to me.
[28:48]Like, lovely, the sweetest.
[28:50]Did you find her to be the sweetest?
[28:52]It was great.
[28:53]Oh, it was amazing.
[28:54]Aw, it was so lucky.
[28:56]Well, thank you so much for coming on,
[28:58]don't have time to read books with this fantastic adult
[29:01]conversation.
[29:02]And I'm glad we finally could have an adult conversation
[29:05]about it.
[29:06]Yes, exactly.
[29:07]Thank you Zibi so much.
[29:08]You are so kind and sweet to help support me
[29:12]and all that you do.
[29:13]And I just so look up to you every time I see Zibi Owens
[29:15]is going live on Instagram.
[29:16]I'm like, how does she do it?
[29:18]How does she do it all the time?
[29:20]So people are not doing the live anymore.
[29:22]I'm done with the lives.
[29:23]I'm back to podcast only, but anyway.
[29:27]Thank you.
[29:28]Bye.
[29:29]Thanks for listening to one of my debut Tuesday episodes
[29:32]in the July book blast series.
[29:34]I really hope you enjoyed it.
[29:35]And it's really my pleasure to bring you some debut authors
[29:39]you might not have heard of or have listened to.
[29:41]So enjoy.
[29:41]I hope you really got a lot out of it.
[29:44]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[29:46]Moms don't have time to read books.
[29:48]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[29:51]at Zibi Owens and at Moms don't have time to read books
[29:55]and sign up for my mailing list at Zibi Owens.com
[29:58]so you can always hear about the latest things.
[30:00]So I'm up to you.
[30:00]Thanks a lot.
[30:01]Thanks so much to Page One Books for sponsoring today's episode.
[30:04]I hope you'll all check out my summer beach bundle
[30:06]at pageonebooks.com.
[30:08]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[30:11]for the sound editing.
[30:12]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:14]for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.
[30:17]Thanks for listening.
[30:18]You can always email me at zibiadzibiowans.com.