Amanda Brainerd, AGE OF CONSENT
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[1:45]I love talking to Amanda Brainard about her debut novel Age of Consent. Amanda is New York City
[1:52]real estate broker wife and mother of three. She graduated from Harvard College and earned a master
[1:57]of architecture from Columbia University after being expelled from Chote Rosemary Hall boarding school
[2:03]in the 10th grade. This is her first novel. Doesn't that make you want to read her book? Anyway,
[2:08]listen, I had a great conversation with her and I bet you'll really enjoy it. So welcome, Amanda.
[2:12]Thanks so much for coming on moms. Don't have time to read books. I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks
[2:16]for having me. So I read that you also grew up on the Upper East Side of New York and I did not
[2:22]know you. I don't know. Maybe we're different ages. I think you're a little younger than I am.
[2:27]That's my suspicion. Maybe I'm 43. So yes, you're 10. You're 10. You're younger than I am.
[2:33]Okay. Well, so we missed each other a little bit. But I loved all the references to everything
[2:37]New York and Age of Consent. It was like amazing. It was really, I felt especially in quarantine
[2:43]ish now being able to be on the FDR drive and like clubs and I don't know all that stuff. It was
[2:49]just like really awesome. What's really funny though is I actually made a few errors about things
[2:54]like the Domino sign and which direction Prince Street goes and actually the copy editors at Viking
[3:00]caught that. Thank goodness because I don't want to look like a moron. Yeah, I mean, I would have been
[3:06]calling you out in the direction of Prince Street right now. Had you not fixed that was a good thing.
[3:11]Exactly. So for listeners who don't know what age of consent is about, this is your debut novel.
[3:17]Congratulations. Thank you. It's very exciting. It's been a very long journey. So the story is about
[3:23]three young women there, 15 and 16 coming of age, trying to become adults in an era where the adult
[3:31]role models are also in deep crisis and trying to navigate being a teenager and relationships with
[3:39]boys, relationships with older men which in some instances see more appealing than the
[3:45]fumbling boys their age and parental damage, parents who have their own issues and are grappling
[3:51]with their own problems and so are unable to parent in the way that maybe the girls would like them
[3:57]to and it starts off at boarding school and the second half takes place as you were mentioning in
[4:03]New York City and it spans a year from 1983 to 1984. So there was a lot of, there was a fact checking
[4:09]and like I was for example, like there was a situation where I had and one of the offices, two of
[4:15]the girls have summer internships and one of them was working in office with a fax machine
[4:19]and they figured out that actually fax machines did not start getting used until the mid 80s which
[4:25]just seems amazing to me that you know, so there was some historic detail that needed to be
[4:30]made more accurate. I clearly remember when we got a fax machine in my house so it had to have been
[4:37]like 86, 87. I'm gonna have to look it up but I remembered so well with like the shiny paper
[4:42]because my friends and I would start faxing each other hand written notes at night.
[4:46]Yeah, it was very exciting time, the slow onset of technology.
[4:52]I'm still like amazed by the way kids now, I mean I'm making myself sound old but can use
[4:58]technology, I was just with my daughter doing like an online award ceremony for her school and in
[5:02]the corner she was FaceTiming with friends and they were kind of watching together and I was like
[5:06]this is so cool, I wish I had had this. Well they just make them so much more connected to one another.
[5:11]Yes. And that's another thing that is a big theme in my novel is the isolation of the teenage years
[5:19]and the way you feel like you're the only one who's going through these things and you envy,
[5:24]you look at other teenagers and you think why can't I be like her when actually they're probably
[5:29]looking at you and saying why can't I be like her? Yes. So just sort of general sort of feeling like
[5:34]this is only happening to me. I'm the only one suffering and how you just live in this kind of bubble
[5:40]of your interior life during those years. I remember the advice like my mother would give me like
[5:45]everyone else is so concerned about themselves they're not thinking about you and I was like no
[5:49]I'm the only one who's self-conscious. That is such good advice. I didn't believe
[5:55]which one I've done. She was right. It's probably actually still the case. It's probably
[6:00]still the case you're you're 100% right. So tell me the journey of this novel and how it's coming out
[6:06]now and and all the rest. Well I mean it's I wish I could tell you the sort of fairytale that I
[6:12]wrote this novel and I immediately got an agent and I immediately got it published but it was not
[6:17]like that at all. So it started in a 2009 believe it or not the journey began. I had fellow writer
[6:25]Nick Pammgarten who's a New Yorker writer over who's a friend and went to St. Bernard's over for
[6:30]supper and with his wife and Nick and I were just talking about you know what it was like to be
[6:35]parents now and what parents were like back then and then we started to sort of discuss
[6:42]the incredible lack of parenting that was happening in the early 80s. For example they're these
[6:48]famous four brothers who had this duplex on Fifth Avenue and their parents went to the south of
[6:54]actually their father died and their mother went to the south of France for the entire summer
[6:57]and left 14 age boys alone in this gigantic apartment. Nothing good happened. So all this
[7:06]said in while I was talking to Nick I thought the light bulb went off and I thought I've got to write
[7:10]this story. I have to tell this story. So I began to interview the people that I wanted to who I
[7:18]thought would have the most the richest stories and the people that I immediately gravitated to
[7:23]automatically and I had all those interviews transcribed and I initially thought of this novel not
[7:29]as a novel but as an oral history sort of in the vein of gene signs ED where different people
[7:35]are telling a story that all adds up into one hole and I quickly realized that the truth was
[7:42]very constraining and I wanted to tell the story and the emotion of the things that it actually
[7:49]happened in my own way without having to stick to exactly what did happen and so I made it into a
[7:56]novel and I sent it around to a bunch of agents. I don't I didn't know anything about what I was doing.
[8:03]I sent it to you know friend of my mother's or you know friend of a colleague and both I think
[8:09]I got two rejections and I was so painfully wounded by that that I put the book away and I wrote
[8:16]two other books that I also put away and the third the third one actually I was
[8:23]friendly but it's the writer and pundit I recall her I guess mouthpiece hilarious brilliant
[8:30]asked me to read the third novel and it was a young adult novel and she read it and she said
[8:36]you're such a good writer why are you writing a book like this I said well and I tried to explain
[8:41]young adult novels to her and she was like that and she just didn't buy the genre of young adult
[8:46]she was like either their books or their notebooks so she showed it to an editor friend of hers
[8:52]who loved it and convinced me to rewrite it and I did and I got an agent and here we are and it
[9:01]would never have happened if it weren't for Fran. Wow I think I want to read an article and call it
[9:08]don't even try to sell your first two novels because like I don't think I I've keep hearing over
[9:15]and over and over again like well I wrote two novels but my third novel so I think maybe you just
[9:20]need to write those two with no expectation of ever selling them even though you think that at
[9:25]the outset that you might it's like impossible I think I just think you're right I mean I think the
[9:29]problem is writers aren't just hatched out of an egg so it took me a long time to actually figure
[9:37]out how to write a novel I mean it doesn't just it's not just as simple as telling a story and you
[9:41]have to balance the first draft was almost all dialogue because as an author I didn't have a sense
[9:48]of my own authorship so I hid behind dialogue to tell a story when I should have actually just
[9:54]been able to take the reins and tell that story in another way so that the reader you know
[9:58]want too much dialogue to
[10:00]exhausting for the reader.
[10:01]But it took me a long time to figure out the right balance
[10:04]and of course the classic show don't tell
[10:07]and all these no adverbs,
[10:10]all kinds of things that are rules for reason
[10:12]because although you can always break the rules,
[10:14]but you have to do it right.
[10:15]Well, it's like if you were an artist,
[10:17]right, and you were trying to learn how to paint,
[10:18]you wouldn't try to sell necessarily
[10:20]your first two or three paintings.
[10:22]You would like practice and practice,
[10:24]but I feel like because books take so long to write
[10:27]and they're so labor intensive.
[10:29]And so personal and everything else.
[10:31]I don't know.
[10:31]People feel disciplined.
[10:33]I don't know.
[10:34]It's like you don't give yourself in it.
[10:35]People don't give themselves enough leeway to know
[10:37]that the beginning is that this is a part of the process.
[10:41]Well anyway, I'll get off this bandwagon.
[10:43]No, but I think what's really interesting about writing
[10:46]is everyone experiences it very differently.
[10:48]I constantly am hearing about authors
[10:51]who really struggle and I think are in pain while they write.
[10:56]For me, it's the most fun.
[11:00]I mean, it's just the things that get woven in
[11:03]from my real life and the little jokes that it's like
[11:06]knitting a sweater and I can weave in these fun little threads
[11:10]and then if one of those threads doesn't work,
[11:12]I can unravel it and thread in something new
[11:15]and it's pretty.
[11:16]I love it. I think it's incredible.
[11:18]And when I first started writing, it was very adrenal
[11:21]and I felt so excited by telling this story.
[11:25]And you have three kids.
[11:26]I do. They're a little older.
[11:27]They're a little older.
[11:28]I only have one left in high school and two in college,
[11:30]but yeah, they all went to the same thing,
[11:34]the same private school that I went to and all of that.
[11:37]Did you have boarding school in the mix as well?
[11:39]Like in your book?
[11:40]No, I didn't allow them because of my own
[11:43]terrible experience of boarding school.
[11:45]Boarding school was not permitted.
[11:47]And to be honest, I didn't have a child
[11:49]who wanted to go to boarding school.
[11:50]I think if I had someone who really needed a change
[11:53]or was a great athlete, we don't have a family,
[11:56]we're not a family of athletes.
[11:57]So we didn't really investigate the boarding school thing,
[12:00]but my husband also went to boarding school
[12:03]and I really was opposed to it.
[12:05]And also we have so few years with our children.
[12:08]I wanted them to be with me as much as possible.
[12:10]I mean, I miss them terribly now they're all home,
[12:13]of course, because the coronavirus,
[12:15]which is in many ways a blessing,
[12:17]but I wanted them with me, close.
[12:20]So I have a son who goes to boarding school.
[12:22]I have four kids, but he goes,
[12:24]well, I mean, he's been home since February,
[12:25]but I didn't want to send my kids to boarding school either,
[12:28]but this was so right for him.
[12:29]And I feel like it's like my sacrifice,
[12:32]you know, like it's good for him.
[12:34]He's driving in every way,
[12:35]but it's nothing I thought I would do.
[12:37]And it hurts.
[12:38]I mean, it really hurts to have him lying, but I don't know.
[12:41]If it's better for him, and he's having a wonderful time,
[12:43]then it's easy to sort of justify
[12:45]and make it understandable.
[12:47]It's true.
[12:48]But your glimpses in the book of boarding school
[12:49]did not exactly make me feel better
[12:51]about my audition when some of the things going on.
[12:54]I think things are very different now.
[12:56]I mean, I think there are still teachers
[12:59]that don't behave properly.
[13:00]Let's just put it that way.
[13:02]But I think that the students are a lot,
[13:06]they're a squarerer nowadays and maybe I'm naive
[13:08]and maybe it's my own children.
[13:10]My kids are pretty square.
[13:11]And I think a lot of people's kids are a lot squarer
[13:14]than we were back in the day.
[13:16]I mean, I think to myself, if my daughters
[13:19]did anything close to the things that I did,
[13:21]I mean, my mother always thought,
[13:23]the minute I had a daughter, she said,
[13:24]this is Nana's revenge.
[13:26]But I was lucky and my girls are so good.
[13:30]I feel like they're sort of pathologically well behaved.
[13:35]And I mean, maybe I'm naive.
[13:38]Who knows?
[13:39]They could possibly, but they're definitely not going
[13:40]to studio 54 at two o'clock in the morning.
[13:42]I know I couldn't even believe like some of the things
[13:46]in the book, like even having a permission slip
[13:49]to be able to smoke at boarding school
[13:50]and like all your references to like,
[13:52]what type of brand cigarettes?
[13:54]Oh, you seem like a lucky girl,
[13:56]but you're smoking vents and hedges.
[13:57]I was like, oh my gosh.
[14:00]You were dying for a cigarette reading it, right?
[14:02]No, I mean, that's true.
[14:04]You couldn't smoke.
[14:05]Well, first of all, when I went to college,
[14:07]you could smoke in the library.
[14:09]They had ashtrays all the way down the big reading table.
[14:13]And this is, you know, late 80s.
[14:15]I mean, it just is so incomprehensible.
[14:18]And yes, as a teenager, you could be 14 years old,
[14:20]and there was a permission slip that was sent home,
[14:23]can your daughter or son smoke?
[14:25]Check here, yes or no.
[14:26]And they would actually come and bust the kids
[14:28]who were smoking who didn't have permission.
[14:30]So funny.
[14:31]Oh my gosh.
[14:32]It's hard to imagine.
[14:34]I think there are a lot of things in the novel
[14:36]like that, though, Zibi, that I think are shocking
[14:40]to people who didn't experience them firsthand.
[14:44]And I will tell you that I toned down the truth
[14:48]to make it more palatable.
[14:50]So that's, and I hear a lot of times
[14:54]that authors do that because the truth is not believable
[14:58]sometimes, and that's another reason
[15:00]that I wanted to read it as a novel,
[15:01]because I wanted to get to the truth
[15:04]of the actual moment or emotion,
[15:07]but not have to actually tell the real story.
[15:09]Very interesting.
[15:10]You know, your book also had a lot of references
[15:13]to the characters that were Jewish
[15:15]and the characters that were not Jewish
[15:17]and the difference there and feeling almost other than
[15:20]at very like Waspy enclave.
[15:21]Can you talk a little bit about that decision?
[15:24]Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I never thought about it
[15:27]because I was in New York City
[15:28]where basically, you know, I considered half the population
[15:31]to be Jewish.
[15:32]And, you know, probably 25% maybe I'm exaggerating,
[15:36]but 25% of my class at Nightingale was Jewish.
[15:39]And Nightingale wasn't even a particularly Jewish school.
[15:42]And it was just normal to be Jewish.
[15:45]I got to boarding school.
[15:46]First, I was the only one with dark hair in the whole school.
[15:48]Everyone's blonde,
[15:49]but I just felt at first of all,
[15:51]I was also very artsy and I had an asymmetrical hairdo
[15:55]and I wore black and I would be considered a goth now, you know?
[16:00]But it was sort of, I arrived at this lacrosse playing,
[16:04]you know, flouncy skirt environment
[16:06]and I couldn't believe it.
[16:08]I mean, girls actually had Farrah Fawcett hairdo's
[16:12]and I'd never seen that before.
[16:14]I mean, I thought it was a joke.
[16:15]And they looked at me like I was a specimen in a jar.
[16:18]I mean, I was such a fish out of water
[16:21]and I was really unprepared for that.
[16:23]And I was really unprepared.
[16:24]There was a significant amount of antisemitism.
[16:27]And I think it was really just ignorance.
[16:30]I think they just didn't know any Jews
[16:32]from, you know, where they were from.
[16:34]There weren't any.
[16:34]And it's interesting because my father went to boarding,
[16:38]the same boarding school.
[16:39]And I spoke to him in researching and working on this book
[16:44]and thinking about the question of my Jewishness
[16:46]in that environment.
[16:47]I asked him how it was for him.
[16:50]I mean, he was there in the 50s.
[16:52]And he said it was horribly antisemitic
[16:54]but I couldn't, as a kid, understand
[16:57]that that was what was going on.
[16:58]I hated it there.
[17:00]I didn't have any friends.
[17:01]He said, well, maybe I was kind of a jerk also.
[17:04]But, but, you know, it was just,
[17:08]you were, you were an alien.
[17:10]And I'm sure that was also an even more true
[17:13]for students of color in that environment.
[17:15]And I really think all of that has changed significantly.
[17:19]I hope.
[17:20]It's true.
[17:20]I also think some, you know, some environments
[17:22]and some sports and some, you know, some little pockets
[17:27]are more ripe for that than others.
[17:28]I remember, like when I went to Yale,
[17:30]I had played La Crosse in high school
[17:32]and like you growing up in New York City,
[17:33]like never really thought twice about it.
[17:35]But when I, I decided to try to walk on
[17:38]to the La Crosse team at Yale,
[17:40]which was like the stupidest decision
[17:41]and lasted maybe two weeks.
[17:43]You know, I'm first of all, I'm five, too.
[17:44]And everybody on the team was like six feet tall
[17:46]and long-blind hair and so athletic
[17:49]and like, oh, I had the most assists
[17:50]in the nation last year.
[17:51]And I'm like, all right, I was,
[17:52]I was pretty decent at my dear old school team.
[17:55]But I don't know.
[17:57]I don't even know what possessed me.
[17:58]But anyway, one of the, you know,
[18:00]the young Kippur was while I was trying to make this team.
[18:04]And I was fasting.
[18:05]And I didn't want to tell anybody
[18:06]because nobody like even spent a second
[18:09]even talking about it or acknowledged that it was a holiday.
[18:11]And I didn't want to like not make the team because of it.
[18:13]So I went on this like four mile run with no food or water
[18:17]and halfway through I like collapsed it not collapsed
[18:20]but had to start walking and finally told
[18:22]like the one girl next to me.
[18:23]And she was like, why didn't you say anything?
[18:25]Anyway, I gave up.
[18:26]And it was that and the like communal showers also
[18:28]did not sound like a good thing
[18:30]that was not gonna happen for me though.
[18:32]That was not gonna be for me.
[18:34]But anyway, I relate very much to that feeling.
[18:36]And I think anyone who has any sort of feeling
[18:39]of ever being, you know, different than the bulk of a group
[18:43]can relate to what happens in this book.
[18:45]It was just a shock for me because I mean in New York,
[18:47]I was popular, I was cool.
[18:49]And all of a sudden I was this weirdo.
[18:52]And my roommate was from Texas
[18:56]and was very conservative and wore frilly blouses.
[19:00]I mean, a sort of a fashion thing going on
[19:01]in the prairie look.
[19:03]And every couple of weeks
[19:06]a new box would arrive from San Antonio, Texas
[19:08]with all of these frilly blouses
[19:10]and flouncy skirts and little lace-up foot.
[19:13]And she wore pettie coats.
[19:14]No, come on.
[19:16]She, I swear, she literally thought I was gonna infect her
[19:19]with my new wave music and my asymmetrical hairdo
[19:22]and my David Bowie posters.
[19:24]I had my entire room, as you noticed in the book,
[19:27]there are a lot of David Bowie references
[19:29]that I had my entire room plastered with David Bowie.
[19:32]And she actually did have a poster
[19:34]on her wall of a kitten hanging on a fence
[19:36]or on a limb of a tree.
[19:38]And it said, hang in there, baby, underneath.
[19:41]And that's in the book.
[19:42]That is in the book, I didn't know.
[19:43]Yes, thank you, everybody.
[19:45]She had fuzzy kittens and I had David Bowie.
[19:48]So it was a little bit of a contrast.
[19:50]Oh my gosh, at least the character in the book
[19:52]had somebody to bond with over it.
[19:53]You gave her a friend to be like,
[19:55]can you believe we had the sign?
[19:56]And she's like, no way.
[19:58]Ha ha ha ha.
[19:59]So that's...
[20:00]And I know that was true though.
[20:01]So now that you have a book coming out
[20:03]and you have like a whole other career, right?
[20:05]You're a real estate broker and right now.
[20:07]Yeah, so yeah.
[20:08]And I actually have a lot of,
[20:10]I work very hard as a real estate broker
[20:12]and I have a lot of business
[20:13]and it's very hectic
[20:15]and I've been working crazily
[20:17]since the coronavirus believe it or not.
[20:20]So, you know, people say to me,
[20:21]like I can't believe you have three kids
[20:23]and you have this career in real estate
[20:25]and you wrote a novel
[20:26]and you're getting it published,
[20:27]how do you do it all?
[20:29]And I'm just sort of like, I don't know.
[20:31]I mean, I just do it.
[20:32]You know, I just don't think about it.
[20:33]And how did you have time to write a novel
[20:36]is the question I get a lot?
[20:38]And I'm like, you know, from your own life,
[20:42]everyone knows from their own life
[20:43]if they really wanna do something,
[20:46]they will find time, no matter what.
[20:48]Nothing will stop them.
[20:49]They will get up at four o'clock in the morning.
[20:51]It's just, it was,
[20:52]and it was also really not a choice.
[20:54]It was like something, it was a compulsion.
[20:56]It was something that I still,
[20:58]I mean, I'm working on my next novel now.
[21:00]So it's just, I'm going to keep doing it.
[21:03]And I'm gonna, you know, make it work.
[21:05]And what's your next novel event?
[21:08]I'll just give you a little,
[21:09]I don't wanna have any spoilers
[21:11]because it's a bit,
[21:11]it's a little bit more of a thriller
[21:13]than age of consent.
[21:14]It's about two women who look exactly alike.
[21:16]So years ago when my children were in preschool,
[21:19]the head of the preschool said to me,
[21:22]I never know Mrs. Brainard,
[21:24]if it's you or Mrs. Reed,
[21:26]you look exactly alike.
[21:28]And all of the administrators have this problem
[21:29]is Mrs. Brainard or Mrs. Reed.
[21:31]So I was like, who's this Mrs. Reed?
[21:34]You know, you're always hearing,
[21:35]oh, you look exactly like so and so,
[21:37]and it's never true.
[21:39]And I was like, what if this woman
[21:40]actually looks exactly like me?
[21:43]And then I thought, what if you meet someone
[21:46]who really does look exactly like you?
[21:49]That's what the book is about.
[21:50]That's very cool.
[21:52]That's awesome.
[21:52]I mean, we all think, you know,
[21:54]we all think in a way that we,
[21:55]I don't know if you feel this way
[21:56]but we have some kind of a double somewhere in the world.
[21:59]So it's really about that.
[22:01]And it's an investigation of female identity.
[22:03]Oh, I can't wait for that one.
[22:05]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[22:09]Well, one of my best friends from college
[22:12]is a screenwriter in Los Angeles.
[22:14]And when I first started doing this,
[22:16]she gave me some very good advice.
[22:17]She said the formula for writing is ass plus chair.
[22:21]And that is just do it.
[22:25]And just keep working on it.
[22:26]And revise and read your work out loud.
[22:29]Don't get discouraged.
[22:31]And also have reasonable expectations.
[22:34]I mean, somebody said to me,
[22:36]when I first started writing my novel,
[22:38]they're like, oh, you know,
[22:39]I'll probably take you probably
[22:40]about 10 years to get this, you know,
[22:42]to the point where it's published.
[22:44]And I said, I don't spend 10 years doing anything.
[22:47]10 years later, I'm getting my novel published.
[22:50]So I think to understand how long this really takes
[22:54]and to be kind to yourself
[22:57]and not such an expectation so high
[23:00]that you'll always be failing
[23:01]because there's so much rejection involved in this process.
[23:06]It's, I mean, and it's still whenever I feel,
[23:10]I'm now a hardened seasoned writer.
[23:14]But in the beginning, the rejection from those two first agents
[23:18]if I felt it physically, it hurt me physically.
[23:21]I mean, it's terribly painful writing is so personal.
[23:24]But I would just say perseverance
[23:26]and not taking no for an answer
[23:28]and just keep going, keep moving forward.
[23:32]Don't look behind, keep moving forward.
[23:34]Learn from the negative experiences
[23:36]but use them to make yourself stronger and better
[23:39]and just keep going.
[23:40]I was listening to your podcast
[23:41]that you did with Lily King recently.
[23:43]I love her writing.
[23:45]And she said exactly the same thing, perseverance.
[23:48]Well, if you and Lily King say it,
[23:49]then that's what everyone's got to do.
[23:52]It's true.
[23:53]And just keep yourself a break
[23:54]and just keep at it.
[23:56]Awesome, I love it.
[23:58]Well, thanks Amanda.
[23:59]Thanks for being on the show.
[24:00]Thanks for being on the show.
[24:01]Thanks for an memory lane of New York in another time.
[24:05]And on the two years.
[24:07]Yeah, those two years were so nice to meet you.
[24:10]And thank you so much for having me.
[24:12]My pleasure.
[24:13]I hope to meet you in person, one of these days.
[24:15]It will happen.
[24:16]OK, bye.
[24:17]Thanks for listening to one of my debut Tuesday episodes
[24:20]in the July book blast series.
[24:22]I really hope you enjoyed it.
[24:24]And it's really my pleasure to bring you some debut authors
[24:27]you might not have heard of or have listened to.
[24:29]So enjoy.
[24:30]I hope you really got a lot out of it.
[24:32]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[24:34]Moms don't have time to read books.
[24:36]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[24:40]at Zippy Owens and at Moms don't have time to read books
[24:43]and sign up for my mailing list at zippyowans.com.
[24:46]So you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[24:49]Thanks a lot.
[24:50]Thanks so much to Page One Books for sponsoring today's episode.
[24:52]I hope you'll all check out my summer beach bundle
[24:55]at page one books.com.
[24:57]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[24:59]for the sound editing.
[25:00]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[25:02]for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.
[25:05]Thanks for listening.
[25:06]You could always email me at zippyowans.com.