Jason Rosenthal, MY WIFE SAID YOU MAY WANT TO MARRY ME
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[1:14]excited, but I'm trying something new this week. I'm doing a July book blast. So I am releasing a ton
[1:21]of episodes for 10 days in July for a couple of reasons. One, a lot of these are books that came out
[1:27]during the quarantine and talk about the quarantine and are very timely and I don't want them
[1:32]sitting around for too long. These authors deserve to have their books out there. So I had a
[1:36]little bit of a backlog and I want to get them out so you can enjoy them. And the second reason
[1:41]is because a lot of these are great books to read in the summer and I didn't want to start releasing
[1:46]these episodes in September when there's less time to read. I mean, I don't know. Maybe they'll be
[1:50]more time to read if school actually starts. Anyway, this is your July book blast and today is
[1:56]the first day of the book blast and I'm calling this memoir Mondays. So today you're going to hear
[2:02]from some of my favorite recent memoirs about their books and I really hope you enjoy every one of
[2:08]them. I had the pleasure of interviewing Jason V. Rosenthal, who is an author, foundation board chair,
[2:14]public speaker and lawyer. He is the subject of an essay written by his wife Amy Kraus Rosenthal
[2:20]called You May Want to Marry My Husband that went viral and was read by millions of readers
[2:25]worldwide. It was in the modern love column of the New York Times. His first book written in
[2:29]collaboration with his daughter Paris was called Dear Boy and it debuted on the New York Times
[2:33]bestseller list as a number one. His response to Amy's piece was titled My Wife Said You May
[2:38]Want to Marry Me and it was published in the Modern Love column in 2018 and that was the inspiration
[2:44]for this book. Amy died at Bavarian cancer just 10 days after her article appeared in the Modern
[2:49]Love column and when she passed away after 26 years of marriage, Jason had to confront his pain
[2:54]and reevaluate his life's work and now he speaks publicly and writes about issues related to
[2:59]processing grief and finding hope and joy amongst the pain. His website says his future is a blank
[3:04]space waiting to be filled. Anyway, please listen to this love story of Jason's and his wife Amy's.
[3:10]Welcome Jason. Thanks so much for coming on mom. Don't have time to read books.
[3:13]Thank you for having me. I was so excited when your book arrived. I have to say and I knew it would be
[3:21]like heartbreaking in a way but also I just like it was one of those books where I was like
[3:26]I'm pushing everything else to the side so I can read this one immediately and it's the colors,
[3:31]the image, the story, the whole thing anyway and it didn't disappoint so thank you for that.
[3:36]Thank you. Now you're welcome and thanks for saying that. I really do appreciate that. Thank you.
[3:40]So your story with your what do I say former wife? I don't want to say former wife. It sounds
[3:45]like your divorce. Your what do you say? It's tricky. Yeah, you can say wife is totally
[3:51]acceptable. Yeah. Yeah. Amy's article in the New York Times. Let's start with that.
[3:55]That's perfect. Okay. Basically put you on the market for every woman out there after she
[4:01]was going to pass away. It was her gift in a way to you and one of many. You depicted her generous
[4:06]spirit and just how amazing a woman she was so well in this memoir. And that sort of propelled
[4:12]you into a position of visibility that perhaps you hadn't anticipated afterwards. So and now of
[4:18]course it's like resulted in this book and all the rest. So I just was hoping to hear from you
[4:22]and you were so open and wonderful in the book. So thank you on behalf of everybody reading it for
[4:27]being so open and helping so many people by sharing your experience. But tell me about how
[4:33]you took this experience and turned all of it into a book. That's a big question, but just
[4:38]that's a big one. Yeah. Well, I mean, so we could just talk about that. That'll be your only
[4:41]book. Okay. That sounds good. Well, no, I knew Amy wanted to finish this one last project
[4:48]that she was writing as she was terminally ill and was a physical struggle for her to even get
[4:54]through that last final piece. And I did not know what it was about until after it was done. My
[5:00]daughter apparently knew, which I didn't know until recently by the way. And then, you know,
[5:04]of course, I gave her my blessing to have it published. I wasn't sure what was going to happen
[5:08]with it. And of course, I never anticipated it in a million years being credible viral nature of it
[5:15]and the response that I got on behalf of the family and to me personally and behalf of my kids.
[5:22]And I mean, it was just really, really remarkable. At the same time, it was at a period of course
[5:29]when we were super focused on Amy and her final days. And so it was very confusing, I guess,
[5:36]is the right way to put it. On the one hand, there was this celebratory nature of what an
[5:41]incredible tribute to Amy to have this piece published and so widely accepted and praised. But we
[5:47]were focused on her final days of life. And so it wasn't until much, much later. And I mean,
[5:54]months, you know, that I was really able to appreciate the tremendous outpouring of love and
[5:58]support that I got as a result of this piece being so viral. You know, I started to get hundreds and
[6:05]hundreds and hundreds more thousands of letters, emails and physical letters and trinkets and pieces
[6:12]of art and medical advice and all kinds of things that I just sort of put to the side
[6:18]till I was in a better position to really appreciate them. And then you wrote a rebuttal piece
[6:23]basically a while later. Tell me about that. Yeah, it was actually in between that, I was asked to
[6:31]if a TED talk and that was in April of 2018. And that really gave me the courage to continue to
[6:37]speak about my experience because, you know, I immediately, and I mean, literally right after I
[6:44]got done with that talk was inundated with people responding to me in such a positive way for
[6:50]speaking candidly about our love story and about loss and about the end of life. You know, because
[6:56]people sort of don't talk about those topics considering a taboo. And then yes, in June, Father's Day
[7:04]of that same year, I wrote a response, modern love column to Amy's piece that is of course the same
[7:10]title as my memoir and gave me that, you know, public space to have a publisher come to me and
[7:15]ask me to write the books. So that's why you did it. Yeah, yeah, you know, I did it because between
[7:22]those two things, between writing the book and my TED talk, I continued to speak literally all
[7:27]over the world about these topics and was so rewarded with all the responses and the people who spoke
[7:35]to me about really intimate things going on in their lives and wanting to connect with me on the
[7:39]topic of loss. And I knew that I had something to say. Oh, that's so nice. And you did. And it
[7:45]wasn't, I actually wouldn't even say this was a memoir about loss. This was a lot about your
[7:50]relationship. And I know you put it in different sections and you didn't structure it as such,
[7:54]right? Like the last section was kind of your empty space to play with that. But it was so much
[7:59]just about a marriage. And even stuff, not that it says taboo, as apparently it's talking about
[8:05]end of life. But a lot of people don't talk about the ins and outs of their marriage to begin
[8:10]with, right? It's something considered so private or you can chit chat about it. But then there's a
[8:14]lot you don't talk about. But here you talk about a lot of it. So what was it like having a, what
[8:19]was it like started going back and revisiting it and trying to put it down on the page, painful,
[8:25]rewarding, like what, what did it feel like? Yeah. I mean, what I realized in writing this book
[8:31]was that repeatedly people wanted to know who, who were these two people that were the subject
[8:37]of this story, you know? And the incredible thing that we had together throughout the course of
[8:42]our marriage was this really, really fantastic relationship. And I felt like that was important to
[8:48]talk about is certainly the foundation for who these people were. And I mean, it was very rewarding.
[8:54]You know, what I did in starting to figure out how to structure the book was I almost
[9:00]treated it like a journalist would treat a nonfiction piece even though it was about my own life.
[9:04]You know, I went back down to the basement. It's the crawl space and pulled out all of these
[9:09]things that that families keep, you know, throughout the course of the raising children and stuff,
[9:15]everything from the silly artwork in junior kindergarten to, you know, letters that we exchanged
[9:20]at anniversaries and things like that. And one of the things I found that people are really
[9:25]being drawn to is this list that I found, which is called Amy and Jason Rosenthal's marriage goals
[9:31]and ideas. And it became a thread throughout the book with my editors help, you know, because that
[9:38]document, even though we weren't so conscious of it was something that we really did live by,
[9:43]even though we it was written on our honeymoon. I didn't, I did nothing productive on my honeymoon.
[9:48]And now I've had two because I'm remarried, but yeah, I mean, I should have done a list,
[9:52]maybe I would have had one. Anyway, I don't know about that. No, I mean, I got a slice of what
[9:58]it was like to live with a writer and Amy and Pr.
[10:00]particular who was quite a list maker.
[10:01]And yeah, like I said, that really was sort of like a blueprint
[10:05]for our lives, but subconsciously in a way.
[10:08]Yeah, I couldn't believe when I read that.
[10:11]And that so many of the things you really did act on.
[10:14]I mean, it's impressive.
[10:16]It's really impressive.
[10:17]I was like, I should be recording my kids' voices.
[10:19]I should be doing all these things, too.
[10:21]Oh my gosh, we used to do too late.
[10:22]So like, you know, a lot of these aren't even about, I mean,
[10:25]obviously they're about relationships.
[10:26]But they're also just like parenting or life in general
[10:29]or things you can do at any stage, not necessarily with your partner.
[10:32]But anyway, still true.
[10:34]And I loved how you put so many little bits and pieces of multimedia
[10:39]essentially inside the book, right?
[10:41]Like, well, art and newspaper excerpts and like the phone number
[10:46]where you wrote her number the first time.
[10:47]I can't believe you still have that.
[10:49]That's so sweet.
[10:50]I mean, it's just like, it's like almost like reading your journal
[10:55]where you like your scrapbook, like you keep posting that.
[10:58]It's just a sweet, I mean, it's just such a lovely tribute.
[11:01]Thank you so much.
[11:02]Yeah, I was a pretty private person before all this.
[11:07]You know, like if you were to Google, Jason, be
[11:09]Rosenthal before all this happened, you wouldn't find anything, really.
[11:13]Maybe my office address downtown, but that was about it.
[11:16]And so yeah, I took a leap here, of course,
[11:19]and opening up my life in a way that it had already
[11:21]been widely opened up by Amy and a spotlight sort of focused on me.
[11:27]But I really felt it was important.
[11:29]And I know you talked about in your book
[11:31]how the people you work with in your law career
[11:33]were very understanding and would do anything
[11:36]and would pitch in and everything for you.
[11:37]But do you feel like now that all the interior monologues
[11:42]and personal life and like your life being out there
[11:46]has affected your other professional life?
[11:48]Like, did everything kind of meld it?
[11:49]Or have you always been the type of person
[11:51]who's really open at work about everything?
[11:54]No, for sure, definitely not.
[11:57]Yeah, I mean, yes, it opened me up in a big way.
[12:00]But one of the fallouts of this whole transition in my life
[12:05]has been my professional career.
[12:07]I've really focused much more on other things than practicing
[12:11]law.
[12:12]And that's what I talk about, like you alluded to
[12:15]in the third part of the book.
[12:16]I wouldn't say it was a fallout.
[12:18]I mean, you're not a professional failure now.
[12:21]You're just you've pivoted of that, right?
[12:23]I mean, I don't know.
[12:25]Excellent way to put it.
[12:25]Of course not.
[12:26]No, yes, yes, yes, it was a 180 that I think I was really
[12:31]open to and probably looking for for a longer period of time
[12:34]than I realized.
[12:35]And I talk a little bit about my angst and anxiety
[12:39]in the book about my professional life for a long time.
[12:43]And there was even where there was a stretch of time
[12:45]where you were going to have to commute to Florida
[12:47]and you were talking about how there was obviously
[12:49]a financial cost to that decision.
[12:51]And you just decided, like, well, there's
[12:53]no price I'd rather pay.
[12:55]Like, this is it.
[12:56]So I feel like it was like this level of clarity, perhaps.
[12:59]That was a trauma like this, a loss of someone
[13:03]you love so much can open up.
[13:06]That's a great way to put it.
[13:07]That's really true.
[13:08]And you wrote also so heartbreakingly
[13:10]about even just the immediate aftermath of losing Amy.
[13:14]Can I read this first paragraph?
[13:16]That's OK.
[13:17]It's from chapter 11, Empty Not Nest.
[13:19]Because also listeners should know you.
[13:22]It was like the day you should have been
[13:24]empty nesters that the diagnosis essentially began.
[13:27]And you obviously went in a different direction.
[13:30]You hear about it, you read about it.
[13:32]You see movies about it.
[13:33]You anticipate it over and over and over again,
[13:36]trying to brace yourself.
[13:37]But it turns out that nothing you do
[13:38]prepares you for the intensity of the emotional explosion
[13:42]that slams into you when your loved one takes her final breath.
[13:45]It was more complicated than I had expected.
[13:47]I knew I'd be decimated.
[13:49]I knew I'd be lonely, vulnerable, empty, and grief-stricken.
[13:52]I knew I'd be indescribably sad.
[13:54]Turns out that it's pretty much accurate.
[13:57]And then some.
[13:58]Oh, that's really true, yeah.
[14:03]So when you're talking now to other people
[14:06]who have experienced loss, what are some of the things
[14:09]that you think they are finding most helpful?
[14:12]Like what are you giving them that they so desperately need?
[14:15]What are they getting from what you're sharing, do you think?
[14:19]Like what do they keep telling you?
[14:20]Yeah, well, I mean, I thought, OK, I would relate
[14:23]to other people who are spouses who've
[14:27]been in a long-term marriage who lost the partners.
[14:29]But as it turns out, really just speaking openly about loss,
[14:34]which in my case was that example, has made other people
[14:38]relate to me whether the issues are everything
[14:42]from losing a long family pet, to losing a job,
[14:45]or going through a divorce, or hitting rock bottom,
[14:49]all these different forms of loss, which I didn't know
[14:53]would be something that people would relate to through my story.
[14:56]But that's really what it's been.
[14:57]It's been people just needing, I would say,
[15:00]is the word, to share a little bit about their loss.
[15:04]And because I'm open and I talk about it,
[15:06]they are comfortable talking about it with me.
[15:08]So part of my message is that it's most likely
[15:14]that any room that you're in, if you do open up a little bit
[15:17]about your own loss, that someone is going
[15:19]to have a shared story of loss.
[15:21]And it's not only about end of life.
[15:23]It's about all those things I just mentioned.
[15:25]And as hard as it is to begin talking that way,
[15:28]I think that you will find just a deeper connection
[15:31]with people by being open and talking about it.
[15:34]I went through a period of time in my own life
[15:36]about 20 years ago, where I lost five people
[15:39]who were all very close to me within a year.
[15:41]And I feel like since that time, I
[15:45]have this extra sensory ability to pick out who's
[15:49]the same loss, I can feel it or something.
[15:53]And I have no, I am always not eager to talk about it.
[15:57]That sounds weird, but just open and ready to talk about it.
[16:00]Because I feel like so many people are very uncomfortable.
[16:03]And they don't know how.
[16:04]you gave examples in your book of the guy friend who
[16:06]like walked by you on the street.
[16:08]And he gave some good examples of how people can actually
[16:11]help because I do feel like until you've had a loss,
[16:14]you don't really know what to do.
[16:17]And anyway, I do feel like once you're
[16:20]in this unfortunate club that most people at some point
[16:23]are going to be a member of, you know, I don't know.
[16:26]It just opens up another level of interaction
[16:29]between people.
[16:29]So yeah, no, I'm really so sorry for that you had to go
[16:34]through that as you can tell I sort of had that same pile
[16:39]up, if you will, over two years.
[16:41]And yeah.
[16:43]And I'm sorry you had to go through that.
[16:44]I should have started this whole thing by saying
[16:46]that it's sorry I am for your loss.
[16:48]And I mean, I just am truly, truly sorry, and you're dead.
[16:51]And you're dog.
[16:52]And I mean, it's just like, I don't mean to laugh.
[16:54]It's just it was just so much that you had to like shoulder
[16:57]all at the same time.
[16:58]So yeah, yeah.
[17:01]So when you're writing this book, and it
[17:03]sounds like you had help from your editor, which is so useful.
[17:07]I mean, I feel like having to produce a project like that,
[17:10]like anything.
[17:11]I mean, most writers need the little,
[17:14]any sort of help is great.
[17:15]But yeah, tell me about what the process was like for you.
[17:18]Like did you have a place you went?
[17:20]Did you structure your time?
[17:21]Did you have a daily writing goals?
[17:23]Like what was your whole?
[17:24]How did you do it?
[17:25]Yeah, it was super intimidating, of course,
[17:27]not just because I'd never done it before in that exact way.
[17:30]I mean, I wrote a book with my daughter called Dear Boy
[17:33]that was a picture book, a lot less words.
[17:36]But, you know, and also I lived with this incredible,
[17:39]incredible writer who was so prolific.
[17:42]So a lot of that was very, very intimidating.
[17:44]And then of course the personal nature of all of it
[17:46]and opening up and all of those things.
[17:49]And then I had a really short window of time
[17:51]to get this done.
[17:52]And so it did become my full-time job.
[17:55]And I would, you know, post up here at my house
[17:59]and spend hours writing.
[18:00]Or I would purposely go out to a coffee shop
[18:03]and put some headphones on and write.
[18:05]Or sometimes I would even, you know, get lost in my office
[18:08]and close the door and just really hunker down and work there.
[18:12]So it was really a more of finding large chunks of time
[18:17]to set aside to write.
[18:19]You know, it wasn't a specific routine every day.
[18:21]And how involved were your kids?
[18:23]I know in the end you included like this beautiful piece
[18:26]from your son after you became,
[18:28]well, I won't say anything wrong.
[18:30]Anyway, but did they read it?
[18:31]Like how did they feel about it?
[18:33]Did you share it with them as you went?
[18:34]How did they feel about the idea of you writing it
[18:36]to begin with?
[18:38]It's a good question.
[18:39]No, I did not share it as it went so long.
[18:42]But when I was done, it was important for me
[18:44]to sort of get their clearance, if you will, you know,
[18:48]just to make sure that I was not saying anything
[18:51]that they would be uncomfortable with
[18:53]or perhaps not talking about someone or not
[18:57]or whatever it was.
[18:58]I wanted them to be okay with the words contained
[19:02]in this book, first of all.
[19:04]And yeah, so I mean, they gave me some good feedback.
[19:09]Definitely.
[19:10]And that was it to the extent that they were involved, yeah?
[19:12]Well, you did a really nice job too.
[19:14]I mean, obviously, I don't know your kid.
[19:15]So I can't say it's an accurate job,
[19:17]but you certainly created them as characters in this book
[19:20]like very vividly.
[19:22]So I feel like I want to like take Paris out to coffee
[19:25]or something now after you wrote a better
[19:26]but anyway.
[19:29]So definitely someone who would be fine
[19:31]to do that with you, I'm quite incredible.
[19:34]So having written this book and now putting
[19:36]a new piece of yourself out there,
[19:38]like what would you like to come next?
[19:40]Like do you want to keep speaking?
[19:42]Like what's your goal or do you want to at some point
[19:45]and say like, I don't want to talk about this anymore?
[19:46]Like what has been the most fulfilling for you?
[19:49]Like what do you want to do going forward?
[19:51]It's a good question.
[19:52]Whenever normalcy will resume, we don't know, right?
[19:56]It's been such a strange time to have all of this happen
[19:58]for me.
[20:00]for the world, you know, not just selfishly for me,
[20:02]but it's been a very difficult time to have a book released
[20:05]and a book of such a personal nature.
[20:07]But I don't really know, you know,
[20:09]that proverbial blank space is still with me
[20:11]and something I'd like to fill.
[20:13]I would like to continue talking about these topics.
[20:16]I think they're really important
[20:17]and I've met so many people and learned so much
[20:20]by delving into these issues.
[20:23]In terms of the next professional phase of my life,
[20:25]I really just don't know yet.
[20:26]I'm not sure.
[20:27]I think you should have a podcast.
[20:29]Do you have one then I didn't know about it?
[20:31]I don't know.
[20:31]Okay.
[20:32]You should do that next.
[20:33]If you want.
[20:34]I think you'd be really good at it.
[20:36]I think good.
[20:37]Oh, thank you.
[20:38]You know, I don't know.
[20:39]I don't know if you're familiar with the work
[20:40]of Claire Bidwell-Smith.
[20:41]She wrote a really fantastic memoir called
[20:44]The Rules of Inheritance
[20:45]and then a couple other books on grief.
[20:46]She's a grief counselor now.
[20:47]Anyway, I just realized she has a podcast
[20:50]that's called Sunday Morning, M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G.
[20:53]But I think that conversations like these
[20:55]and the way you're able to relate to people.
[20:57]I don't know.
[20:58]I'm looking for something to do or that you need my advice.
[21:00]But I like to give everybody advice unsolicited,
[21:02]which is like a, you know, a flaw of my own.
[21:04]So anyway, that's my two cents.
[21:06]Well, stay tuned.
[21:06]Who knows?
[21:07]Who knows?
[21:08]We'll see.
[21:09]I'm sure you have the word that you're at your feet.
[21:11]Like, looking back, is there anything that you wish
[21:15]you had done differently or that you would tell people
[21:18]who are maybe not appreciating their spouse enough
[21:22]in the current moment to pay attention to
[21:25]or anything like that?
[21:28]Well, I mean, what I did learn, unfortunately,
[21:31]from losing Amy and my partner in life,
[21:35]you know, was that as cliche as it sounds, right?
[21:38]We were born and we know for sure we're gonna die.
[21:41]And we don't know when that ending is gonna come, you know?
[21:44]And so I think my best advice would be to really try
[21:48]as best you can to appreciate the small moments in life, you know?
[21:53]And appreciate that this may not go on for so long, you know?
[21:58]And whether that's by, you know, changing what you do
[22:01]professionally or meditating or reading more or whatever it is,
[22:07]you know, bring something into your life
[22:08]that's gonna give you meaning.
[22:10]And you will be a better partner along the way by doing that.
[22:13]Do you have advice for aspiring authors
[22:16]having gotten this book into the world?
[22:19]Oh, I mean, I think the biggest thing is to write, you know?
[22:22]And to have a discipline practice of writing,
[22:26]my circumstances were certainly a little bit different.
[22:28]But I think spending some time every day writing
[22:31]is what's most important and getting that muscle, you know,
[22:34]into shape.
[22:35]And there's so many ways that you can express yourself now
[22:39]whether it is in a book or if it's on a blog or online
[22:42]or, you know, in an essay.
[22:44]And so yeah, that would be my best advice
[22:46]is just to do it.
[22:48]Did you get any sort of like a writing bug after this?
[22:51]Like, do you still write?
[22:52]Or are you like that was great,
[22:53]but now I finished that so I'm done.
[22:55]You know, I've written a few pieces
[22:57]and I've just done them for myself
[22:59]and maybe they'll get placed somewhere, maybe they won't.
[23:02]You know, this environment is so unique.
[23:04]Like we've just touched upon.
[23:05]No, if you don't fit into like a little niche,
[23:07]you may not get published right now,
[23:09]but yeah, I think maybe I have.
[23:12]Yeah.
[23:13]I have an online magazine if you have,
[23:14]if you want to submit as seriously.
[23:17]If you're looking, I know it's not your time spent.
[23:19]That sounds great.
[23:21]Okay, good.
[23:22]We will stay in touch for sure.
[23:23]Yeah.
[23:24]Well, thank you so much for all of your time
[23:25]and for sharing your story.
[23:27]And for being so open,
[23:29]I feel like it's kind of rare for men to be this open, honestly.
[23:32]And it's so appreciated as you can tell
[23:35]by the reception of it.
[23:36]So I'm truly sorry that you had to go through this loss.
[23:39]And yet I'm happy for you that you had such an amazing marriage.
[23:43]That's a real gift, not that it makes it any better.
[23:45]But anyway, thank you for sharing all your experience.
[23:50]Yeah. And thanks for your feedback on the book
[23:51]and for having me today.
[23:52]I really appreciate it.
[23:54]My pleasure.
[23:55]All right. Thank you.
[23:56]Bye.
[23:57]I hope you've enjoyed listening to one of the amazing memoirs
[24:00]on my memoir Monday, part of my July book blast.
[24:04]And this is really special collection of podcasts.
[24:07]And I really hope you enjoyed it.
[24:08]So please keep listening to more.
[24:11]Thanks.
[24:13]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[24:14]Moms don't have time to read books.
[24:16]If you liked this episode, please follow me
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[24:29]Thanks a lot.
[24:30]Thanks so much to page one books for sponsoring today's episode.
[24:33]I hope you'll all check out my summer beach bundle
[24:35]at page one books.com.
[24:37]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[24:40]for the sound editing.
[24:41]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:43]for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.
[24:45]Thanks for listening.
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