Janine Urbaniak Reid, THE OPPOSITE OF CERTAINTY
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zive Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast.
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[1:13]Hey everyone. I am so excited, but I'm trying something new this week. I'm doing a July
[1:18]book blast. So I am releasing a ton of episodes for 10 days in July for a couple reasons. One,
[1:25]a lot of these are books that came out during the quarantine, and talk about the quarantine,
[1:30]and are very timely, and I don't want them sitting around for too long. These authors deserve to
[1:34]have their books out there. So I had a little bit of a backlog, and I want to get them out so you can
[1:39]enjoy them. And the second reason is because a lot of these are great books to read in the summer,
[1:45]and I didn't want to start releasing these episodes in September when there's less time to read.
[1:49]I mean, I don't know. Maybe they'll be more time to read if school actually starts. Anyway,
[1:53]this is your July book blast, and today is the first day of the book blast, and I'm calling
[1:58]this memoir Mondays. So today you're going to hear from some of my favorite recent memoirs about their
[2:05]books, and I really hope you enjoy every one of them. I had such a good time talking to Janine Reed.
[2:11]I felt like I could talk to her forever after reading her memoir, like I knew her or something.
[2:16]I'm sure everybody says that. But anyway, we had the best conversation. Janine is a mother,
[2:20]and the author of the memoir called The Opposite of Certainty, Fear, Faith, and Life in Between.
[2:26]She hopes to help others find hidden strength and hope in an unpredictable world,
[2:30]and to inspire us all to come through seemingly impossible times transformed by sharing the story
[2:36]of her own reluctant journey through the completely unimaginable. I mean, how good does that sound?
[2:41]Janine's work has been published in The Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, and San Francisco
[2:46]Chronicle, and is widely syndicated. She currently lives in California.
[2:50]Welcome, Janine. Thanks so much for coming on mom's. Don't have time to read, folks.
[2:54]Thank you, Zibi. It's wonderful to meet you and to see you face-to-face through the computer screen.
[3:00]You, too. Yes, for listeners, we're doing this via Skype, but just for us, I guess.
[3:05]And this is our second try, because we had some technical problems. But we're starting over,
[3:09]so you all get great sound. Janine's memoir. I feel silly even sounding so upbeat, because although
[3:15]there is so much uplifting about it, but it goes into the depths of so much emotion, and pain,
[3:22]and hope, and just there's so much in it. It's called the opposite of certainty, fear, faith,
[3:27]and life in between. So maybe Janine, you could just tell listeners a little more about the memoir,
[3:33]and how you remembered everything in order to write about this time of your life. Yeah.
[3:38]Well, I like to say that the book is about what's real and true, when what's real and true
[3:43]can't be happening. And coincidentally, it was born into this unprecedented uncertain time.
[3:49]So people might be able to relate to that premise, so it's about me trying to be the best mom
[3:54]in the world, right? As we do, we take, you know, I had a professional career previously,
[3:59]and I took all those skills, and I was determined that my kids would never be hurt, scared, or
[4:04]scarred. And this is the story about what happens when I come up against a foe that I actually
[4:11]can't control. And how do we manage that? And how do we dive deeply inside of ourselves,
[4:17]when all these outside circumstances are so unmanageable? The book is about a period of my life,
[4:24]which was of course very difficult and also extremely transforming. And how I remembered it,
[4:31]first of all, there's some things that I'll never forget. And then I also have a core group of
[4:36]friends that who I was emailing and texting. And thank goodness I had that electronic record,
[4:41]because I am a writer. And I was a writer at the time, and I intended to keep detailed notes.
[4:47]And there are some notes, but I have this thing where I keep journals, and I don't know which
[4:50]journal is which, and the boxes, those those plastic boxes full of handwritten notes. But
[4:57]what was most helpful were that were that was the correspondence with my friends, because it was
[5:01]just this element of dropping down and saying, help, this is what's really going on with me at
[5:06]that moment. And that's where the book is born out of, literally working from those documents
[5:12]to tell the story. So in the beginning of your book, you talk about your send Mason and how
[5:18]at first you thought he just had some mild headaches and a little tremor. And the first doctor you
[5:22]saw brushed it off as nothing more than my grains essentially, although you did defend her later
[5:27]and saying another doctor defender, I should say really. But then you get this blow when you
[5:34]find out that he has a brain tumor. And he finds out and you have to deal with telling him
[5:40]finding out in the backseat of the car. And you like having to wait for the biopsy, it's just
[5:44]like one, it's like every parent's worst nightmare is what you basically documented. And yet you
[5:50]did it. And you wrote about it. And oh my gosh, what was that time? What was it like for you?
[5:56]I mean, I know from reading, but just to share with others, especially the beginning is
[6:00]yeah. Well, I had this illusion that I was safe. You know, like I pulled together a life, I had,
[6:06]you know, I grew up in a family with alcoholism and I bring that up because it shaped me. Like
[6:11]you know, like the cypress trees and Monterey are shaped by the wind. I was shaped in a certain way.
[6:16]And the way I was shaped was that I was going to control most everything possible.
[6:22]And things could be okay. And here I was in this finding out that there was no way I could,
[6:29]if there was anything I could do to get, you know, when it's something it has something in their
[6:34]brain, you just, you just, you can't dive in, right? It's the ultimate like powerlessness. But where
[6:39]I did have power was finding doctors and finding that voice inside of me, that first doctor told
[6:45]me basically what I wanted to hear was that your kids normal, you're overreacting. I will take
[6:50]of being an overreacting mom any day, you know. And yet my son's symptoms weren't going away.
[6:56]So we, we had to keep keeping away, keep trying to find resources. And again, you know,
[7:03]being in that time and this gathering storm of something bigger than me, I remember you mentioned
[7:10]telling Mason, he has a tumor. You know, I was, I read a lot of books and a parenting books and I
[7:18]wanted, again, I wanted to do everything right. And I certainly didn't want to be having a conversation
[7:24]with my husband and having my son over here. You know, it was like, oh, that blow of, okay,
[7:30]this is not good, you know, and, and feeling, you know, I think mother, as mothers, we take on
[7:37]so much guilt and in the world too, you know, if you have a misbehaving kid, I remember when my
[7:42]oldest son threw sand at somebody in the sandbox and the mother looked at me as if I, I had thrown
[7:47]sand at her child, right? We take on so much and I really believe that I really believe that I'd
[7:53]rather be wrong than powerless. You know, I'd rather have it be my fault than to be able to not
[8:00]be able to affect an outcome. And one of the reasons for telling this story, I realized is, you know,
[8:05]it's like in our life, the safety rails got taken away. Yet I think if a story is hopeful and I'm
[8:12]getting a lot of feedback from people that they read the book and they feel actually feel comforted
[8:16]and they feel positive. So it's not just a sad read. It's a story. We survive this therefore,
[8:24]you know, it's so, but if I can survive the worst and learn these lessons, maybe they can be
[8:29]helpful to other people. Absolutely. I was just saying this to somebody else this week who I interviewed
[8:35]that there is, it is all an illusion of safety, right? We're not saying none of us are safe,
[8:41]but then from time to time we get these big scares and how you cope with it then changes the
[8:46]whole trajectory of the rest of your life and books like yours are so essential because they give
[8:52]you a taste of what you know, but you don't want to face and then they also tell you you're going
[8:57]to be okay too. And I think that's what draws people to books like yours, especially I mean yours
[9:02]in particular is wonderful. But I think people need that. People need to know that like when you hit
[9:09]bottom you'll be able to get through it because like Janine got through it and look how she did it
[9:13]and her husband and you know you know it's just I don't know it's something so essential to getting
[9:18]through life is through hearing stories like yours. Absolutely. I agree. And I've always been drawn
[9:23]to stories of people walking through difficult times and I and one of the things that I realized
[9:29]too is I have been girding myself. It takes so much energy to gird ourselves and to be so afraid
[9:35]in the world and that is one of my defaults. It's just how I am. I'm wired as a very fearful person.
[9:41]So I always say I was not qualified for this job of you know mother of a child in an uncertain life
[9:48]you know and their life has continued to be uncertain and it's not that I embrace that like oh goody
[9:54]you know it's like extreme sports you know I don't believe in any sport that requires a helmet
[9:58]in the face car.
[10:00]myself, you know, I'm a very like, let's be safe, let's be safe. And yet, you know what,
[10:05]I was okay. And I found the resources. It's like the Wizard of Oz, you know, Dorothy had the
[10:11]Ruby slippers all along. And I found the resources inside of myself that I didn't know I had.
[10:18]And I'm just an ordinary person too. I think that's another really important part of the story
[10:23]is that I'm not some like superhuman, you know, extreme meditator. I mean, I admire people
[10:29]like that. I really do. And I read their books. But I'm just an ordinary scared mom.
[10:34]And yet, I was able to access these resources and walk through what I really didn't think I could
[10:39]walk through. Would you mind if I just read the introduction that you wrote, which you called an invitation?
[10:44]Is that okay? I would love that. Okay. So this is after the amazing forward, by the way, by
[10:49]Anlamat, who was also on this podcast a long time ago, you write an invitation from one breath to the
[10:54]next. We exist in a place where there are no guarantees. We buttress against uncertainty and resist
[10:59]its gravitational pull. People like me try to control everything we possibly can to be safe.
[11:04]Sometimes we're able to pretend that the ground under foot is bedrock and the sky above
[11:08]predictable. This book is for anyone who is tired of clenching against circumstance or the news.
[11:14]It's not a how-to book or how-not-to book. Oddly, in the story of my anything but predictable life,
[11:19]there is solace because there is good. And I often call it God that illogically shows up in
[11:24]surprising forms and in the most exhausting and terrifying moments beauty can be revealed in the
[11:28]imperfect terrain. My hope is to offer a companion in uncertain places, a place to identify in the
[11:33]heart of what's real and what matters. That is so beautiful. I mean, I don't know anyone could have
[11:40]listened. Is there anyone out there listening who does not want to go buy this book after reading
[11:44]that introduction? I don't know. I don't know who you are. No, I'm kidding. And it just sets the
[11:49]whole tone for the rest of the story. There was also one passage I wanted to read about you and
[11:54]your husband, which I also thought was a really interesting sort of, you know, storyline sort of
[11:59]narrative as the two of you faced this together. And how it affected your marriage, which of course
[12:04]it's going to affect everyone in the family. But you wrote, Alan and I have come a long way
[12:09]and we will still fall short regularly even on the days we look our shiniest on Facebook.
[12:13]It might help that we keep praying together asking for strength that isn't limited by our exhaustion
[12:17]and pettiness. We share a life full of things and people to disagree about. We blame each other
[12:22]for how hard things get, how tired we are. We argue, we stew and we come back together.
[12:27]It hasn't been easy, but so far underneath any hurt feelings, we've unearthed the bond that brought
[12:32]us together that keeps us together. We choose each other one more time every time. I hope it's enough.
[12:39]I'm literally going to cry. It's so good. To me, it's so good. Anyway, thank you for being
[12:47]and thank you. You know, it's such a solitary thing, writing a book. You understand this.
[12:53]It's like you're alone and this makes sense to anyone else. So it's so rewarding to have this
[13:00]phase of the journey to see that people, that it is universal, that people relate, that I'm not
[13:06]the only one, which is my whole life. That's all I wanted to hear is I, me too. I get it. I get it.
[13:12]And it's in that we. I find that connection. And I call it God. I call that a higher power,
[13:18]that connection of I get you. I get you. Yeah. Wow. So how did you, I know you mentioned you kept
[13:25]notes and you knew you would go back on your emails, but were you sure this would be a book in
[13:30]the depths of all of it? Were you like, this will definitely be a book. I'm going to tell my story.
[13:34]And then when were you ready to tackle this as a book project?
[13:38]Well, you know, I started writing about it. And I thought it was going to be, I thought there
[13:44]were going to be essays. And then Amlamon is also my best friend. And at one point, there's a
[13:50]little twist in the story. And Annie says to me, well, this is going to be this, here's your book.
[13:56]And I go book book. I'm writing a book. And I took her word for it, you know. And so I just
[14:02]started writing. And I think it was also a way to, the story had to come through me, you know, as a writer,
[14:09]Joan Diddy and has, I used to have it as a screen saver. And I'm not good at quoting things
[14:14]exactly. But the gist is that, you know, she writes to understand what just happened.
[14:19]You know, what's real and what's true, what just came, what just happened to me and my family.
[14:24]And that's what I wrote. There were, and of course there are 5,000 drafts of this book, you know.
[14:28]So the first draft was very much annoying people in the stupid things they said.
[14:34]And then we then, you know, it just started, the story got deeper and I got softer, you know.
[14:41]It was, I had to work through some of that resentment that doctor you mentioned. I still think,
[14:45]you know, the missed, the missed diagnosis, not missed diagnosis, but missed.
[14:50]I still consider, do I want to drop off a copy of the book at her office? I haven't decided yet.
[14:56]But I hope she, I kind of hope she finds it. But to what end, I don't know. My mom at one point
[15:01]said, do you have the energy for this? You know, when it came to that sort of thing to,
[15:06]and I do need to conserve my energy on that. So the writing, you know, it just, it kind of took
[15:11]on a life of its own. I had to do it. There were times I thought, why am I not writing like a romance
[15:17]novel or a mystery, which are also hard to write. But perhaps there were days this was
[15:23]brutal emotionally. Because one of the, and one of the skills that served me well growing up in
[15:30]alcoholism is I can pack away terror like nuclear waste, right? So it was all there. And the
[15:36]writing was a chance to process that, to feel what it wasn't safe to feel at the time or expedient.
[15:42]Because I had, you know, as any mom knows, you tuck away what you have to, because you have to
[15:48]function. You do what you have to do for your kids. And it's not a question of, well, I don't
[15:53]know how you do this. You just do what you have to do. So the writing was a chance to do that
[15:58]and process it like that as well. And then the other surprising thing in the writing and
[16:03]combing through it was like a fine tooth comb through many drafts of this experience was spotting
[16:09]these. I call it the improbable good. And the, and that, you know, I would think I was so focused on
[16:15]the miracle would be that Mason's tumor would disappear. And I even had a moment, you know,
[16:21]I remember we take Mason for frequent scans of his brain to monitor his tumor because it's not
[16:28]something that can be removed. And I remember looking at my older son who's three years older
[16:32]than Mason and thought comes to my mind, well, maybe I could take him for the scan. And we'll get a
[16:37]clean scan. Like we'll cheat on the test. You know, we'll ace the SAT who cares who took it. And of
[16:43]course, that's I realize that was an absolutely insane thought. But, you know, these are the things
[16:49]that come up in my mind. And the writing was a chance to try to put some order to it and to find
[16:56]the grace. So, oh, so what I was saying about that miracle and the miracle would be that there
[17:01]would be no tumor. Well, I was so focused for so long on that miracle. And I had some people who are
[17:06]very serious about faith praying for that miracle, which would be great still. I would accept it.
[17:12]But in being so focused on a miracle looking one way, I miss, could miss a lot of the grace
[17:18]that was happening in any given moment. The miracle of the nurse's aid who just put a hand on my
[17:25]shoulder and said, you know, baby, it's going to be okay. So it's beautiful, beautiful moments that
[17:31]I in the writing of this. And in, you know, a lot of them made it into the book. That was the grace
[17:37]of the book project. That was the grace of the writing was to go, oh, we were cared for every single
[17:43]minute. So I say too, how did I end up with more faith in God when a lot of my ideas about how
[17:52]God worked and what God was in my life had to be thrown away because they just didn't hold up to
[17:59]this kind of a circumstance. Wow. And I know you had another job and you talked about yourself,
[18:04]you know, heading off with your leather briefcase. And you know, you're very deliberate,
[18:08]well, flat out decision to stay at home with your kids and get that up. When did you know that
[18:14]you wanted to write? I mean, oh, you've always loved to write. But tell me about your relationship to
[18:18]writing. Well, I have, I have always read, you know, I've always been a reader. I've always been a
[18:26]voracious reader. And I was funny because I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I get
[18:31]to talk about myself in these interviews since my book came out, which is fun. Turns out,
[18:38]who knew that I remember being a little girl. And you know, my parents are lovely and we've
[18:43]had so much healing of the alcoholism in our lives. My dad is sober a long time now as am I.
[18:49]But there was a moment in my childhood. I remember looking at him and him raging or whatever was
[18:54]happening. I don't remember exactly, but I remember thinking I will remember everything and I will
[19:00]write it down. And that is my nature. You know, that is how I'm cut. So there was that piece of it.
[19:07]So I'd always taken writing classes. I hadn't believed in myself as a writer so much. I was
[19:13]successful in my PR career. I could write in that way and other people's voices. And then there
[19:19]came a time when my kids were little and I was home with them. And I'd always gotten a lot of
[19:24]identity from my career and a lot of out of girls from my career. And here I was, you know,
[19:30]letting go of that code of identity and feeling like there were certain settings I wasn't taken
[19:36]terribly seriously, which I resented and didn't love. And I felt like I needed to for the greater
[19:44]good, you know, for me, it's hard to put myself first. It just is, you know, I don't know why,
[19:51]and it just is. But I realized that at a certain point that for for the good of my marriage,
[19:56]for the good of my children, I had to find me. I couldn't
[20:00]at last and I was literally being asked to make soup
[20:03]for kindergarten open houses.
[20:04]Can you please make a pot of soup?
[20:06]I mean, lovely idea to serve soup,
[20:08]but you know what?
[20:10]I wanted to pull my hair out.
[20:11]So I started taking,
[20:13]and what's wild is the year before Mason was diagnosed.
[20:18]And this is again, that synchronicity in my life.
[20:20]And when I look back, I call that God.
[20:22]I call that, there was some sort of grace carrying me.
[20:25]I did a year long intensive
[20:27]with a great writing teacher, Natalie Goldberg.
[20:30]And this is a wonderful thing about my husband.
[20:32]When I went to him and said,
[20:33]I am losing my mind, I need something.
[20:37]You know, I need to feed this corner of me.
[20:39]I need to, I need something to bring to the family
[20:42]in terms of, you know, me.
[20:44]And I did four weeks, not all in a row,
[20:47]but it sustained me.
[20:49]And there was no accident looking back
[20:51]that I had that sustenance.
[20:54]I had that core of writing no matter what.
[20:58]And that story is coming through me.
[21:00]And the truth coming through me.
[21:02]And sometimes I don't know what the truth is
[21:03]until it comes out my hand.
[21:05]You know, Natalie was very big on handwriting.
[21:07]And you know, I'm sure she still is.
[21:09]And that really when all else fails,
[21:11]pen to paper, what's going on.
[21:14]And that, I found myself in that again.
[21:16]And you know, that's my experience
[21:18]as a writer.
[21:18]Other people have different ways of doing that.
[21:20]And not everybody's inclined to lose themselves
[21:23]in motherhood as I am.
[21:24]But I do have a lot of co-dependent tendencies
[21:27]that I work with that I just, you know,
[21:29]it's my, it's my clay of my life
[21:31]that I need to work with and deal with as I go along.
[21:35]Wow.
[21:36]Do you have advice to aspiring authors?
[21:38]Yeah. Well, I think it's just go for it.
[21:42]Go for it.
[21:43]And don't let anyone tell you your story is not important.
[21:45]I had people tell me my story was too sad.
[21:48]You know, the first age when I talked to just like recoiled
[21:52]as if from a hot flying and he didn't get it.
[21:56]He didn't get it, but it didn't stop me.
[21:57]And luckily I had a lot of support in my life
[21:59]where people were like, what the heck was that?
[22:02]You know, no, you keep going.
[22:04]And that's the other thing.
[22:05]It's important to create the community you need
[22:09]to find friends who will support you,
[22:12]who will read your work and say, you know what?
[22:14]I just love that line.
[22:16]I love that.
[22:17]What you said there, it just got me in the heart.
[22:20]That's, we need that.
[22:21]We need that support as writers and don't give up.
[22:24]And I have to say to my abilities as a writer,
[22:28]I had continued to improve, you know,
[22:31]they and they continue to improve.
[22:33]So just keep at it.
[22:34]I guess that's really it.
[22:35]Don't give up.
[22:36]No matter what.
[22:37]Don't give up.
[22:38]It's the answer to all of life.
[22:39]No matter what.
[22:40]Don't give up.
[22:41]You're loved.
[22:42]If you have that in you that says do it, I listen to that.
[22:47]Well, I'm really glad you listened to it
[22:48]because your book was so good.
[22:50]And it's always just such a gift
[22:52]when people share all of what you shared.
[22:54]And it was just really great.
[22:56]So I'm sorry to be so effusive.
[22:58]I'm not always like this,
[22:59]but I just really connected with it.
[23:01]And thought it was so great.
[23:02]Probably my own need for control
[23:04]and trying to make things perfect.
[23:05]And I could just so easily put myself in your shoes.
[23:08]And anyway, so it was great.
[23:10]And it has your family weathered this current home stay
[23:14]quarantine situation.
[23:16]Okay, is everybody okay?
[23:18]Are you hanging in there?
[23:20]We're hanging in there, you know, we're pretty blessed.
[23:22]We've got a nice set up here and everybody's home.
[23:25]And as a mom, that also makes me kind of happy
[23:27]in a weird way.
[23:28]It's hectic as you well know.
[23:30]We all know, right?
[23:32]There's not a lot of silence,
[23:33]but it has been nice having everybody under one roof.
[23:37]And my daughter came home with a cat from college too.
[23:40]So we have a little animal drawn up, but that's okay.
[23:43]She learned that from me, you know.
[23:44]Yeah.
[23:47]Well, thank you so much.
[23:48]Thanks for coming on mom's own.
[23:49]Have time to read books and thanks for our chat.
[23:51]Thank you, Zibi.
[23:52]It's been, it's been a pleasure.
[23:53]Thank you. Bye.
[23:55]I hope you've enjoyed listening to one
[23:56]of the amazing memoirists on my memoir Monday,
[24:00]part of my July book blast.
[24:02]And this is really special collection of podcasts.
[24:05]And I really hope you enjoyed it.
[24:07]So please keep listening to more.
[24:09]Thanks.
[24:11]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[24:13]Moms don't have time to read books.
[24:15]If you liked this episode, please follow me
[24:17]on Instagram at zibiowans
[24:19]and at moms don't have time to read books
[24:22]and sign up for my mailing list at zibiowans.com
[24:25]so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[24:27]Thanks a lot.
[24:28]Thanks so much to page one books for sponsoring today's episode.
[24:31]I hope you'll all check out my summer beach bundle
[24:33]at page one books.com.
[24:35]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[24:38]for the sound editing.
[24:39]And thank you to Morningmoon Productions
[24:41]for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.
[24:44]Thanks for listening.
[24:45]You could always email me at zibiatzibiowans.com.