Catherine Newman, HOW TO BE A PERSON
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[1:22]Katherine Newman is the author of How to Be a Person, 65, hugely useful, super important
[1:28]skills to learn before your grown-up.
[1:30]She's also the author of Waiting for Birdie, Catastrophic Happiness, and One Mixed Up
[1:34]Night, and the co-author of Stitch Camp.
[1:36]She is the etiquette columnist for Real Simple Magazine, and the editor of the James Beard
[1:40]Award-winning Kids Cooking Magazine, Chop Chop.
[1:43]Newman has contributed to publications, including The New York Times, Oh, The Oprah Magazine
[1:47]and Parents.
[1:48]She currently lives in Amherst, Massachusetts, with her family.
[1:51]Thanks for doing this again.
[1:53]Thank you for having me again.
[1:55]You're welcome.
[1:56]Okay, so how to be a person, 65, hugely useful, super important skills to learn before
[2:02]your grown-up.
[2:03]What a fantastic book.
[2:05]Okay, so tell everybody how you came up with the idea to write this book.
[2:10]Okay, you can stand to hear this again.
[2:12]I can totally stand to hear this again, and it'll be great.
[2:16]I wrote this book because I have the kind of kid, my daughter, Birdie, who's 17 now,
[2:23]but for her whole life, she has really liked to do it her own self.
[2:29]She started saying that when she was like one and a half and has said it basically ever
[2:33]since.
[2:34]At some point, it was like 12 or 13, and I had asked her to do some basic task, sweep
[2:43]the kitchen.
[2:44]I think it was a holiday, and she didn't know how to do it, but she had never picked
[2:49]up a broom.
[2:51]That was my fault.
[2:51]It had never occurred to me to ask her, and she didn't know how to do it, and didn't
[2:57]want to be shown how to do it, and then you're in your own personal vacuum of you can't
[3:03]learn something.
[3:04]If you don't let someone show you, say you need a book.
[3:07]I went to the library to get a book that I pictured as a photographic encyclopedia of
[3:15]housework.
[3:16]A book I thought would exist, and would be like a really great book for kids that would
[3:21]be like 1,000 pages long, and every page would be like an 8-step photograph of how to sweep
[3:27]the floor out of clean the bathroom, and that book did not exist.
[3:32]You'll be surprised to hear, like, we've not fun book for kids.
[3:38]Then I thought, well, there must be books that show kids how to do useful stuff, and weirdly,
[3:45]there's lots of books about un-useful stuff, like all the kind of girl scout-tape books,
[3:52]but there really wasn't a book that was about teaching kids to do basic household chores,
[3:58]so that's the book I set out to write, and then it kind of evolved, because why is
[4:04]publisher thought that still wasn't going to be a really fun book if it was just about
[4:07]chores, so that's how it got to be so variable?
[4:11]Well, when we last spoke, I had told you that my daughter used this book, and actually
[4:17]maybe this is before, after we spoke, anyway, so my kids, as I mentioned, love this,
[4:21]all ages of my kids, and my daughter, who's 13, was like, Kyle asked me to set the table,
[4:27]I need that book.
[4:28]So she grabs the book and opens it up to the page where you have like, here it is,
[4:33]if you're in a fancy French restaurant, here it is, if you're just having regular dinner,
[4:36]she set the table, and she was so proud of herself, and it was just amazing.
[4:41]That makes me so happy, that's the whole goal, not that she had an ever set the table,
[4:46]but it hadn't ever necessarily been right before, but, you know, a book will hang out
[4:55]with you while you learn, you know, I think books are so useful for certain types of kids
[5:01]in particular, who, you know, really don't want to deal with your, like, pedantic
[5:08]tone, or don't want to deal with your assumptions, or don't want to deal with the fact
[5:11]that at a certain point you get irritable because they can't seem to learn something that
[5:15]seems sort of obvious to you.
[5:16]And so I do feel like, you know, that's the beauty of a book among many other beauties
[5:22]of a book.
[5:23]Totally.
[5:24]And your advice also was to just leave it out, because I wanted to like, go to like,
[5:28]force it down my son's throat too, and be like, you have to read this, but you said,
[5:31]just leave it out.
[5:32]And then lo and behold, you know, when we're all like, oh, great job with setting the table
[5:37]and everything, he's like, hey, what's that book?
[5:40]And then he figured out and started reading it.
[5:42]And then my little guy started reading it anyway.
[5:44]It's like, it's contagious, contagious in our house.
[5:49]And I love the illustrations, because it feels like almost like a picture book, almost
[5:53]like a picture book meets graphic novel type of thing.
[5:57]And yet you're talking about like, how to chop an onion and whip up a smoothie and
[6:02]sweep the floor and empty the dishwasher and all this stuff.
[6:05]And anyway, it's, it's, you made it so fun.
[6:08]Oh, thank you so much.
[6:10]And now it is my illustrator that I got to work with Debbie Fon.
[6:14]Who's this just incredible illustrator, but also this really tremendous person.
[6:20]And really got the book, you know, just like got it nailed to everything I wanted.
[6:25]She just did it intuitively and she really understood like, I just didn't want it
[6:31]the book to feel scolding.
[6:32]You know, I feel like we're all on the same side, even though it doesn't always feel
[6:37]like that.
[6:38]You know, as in the kids, like we all want the same things.
[6:42]And I wanted the book to feel really like an invitation more than like that.
[6:48]You should have already known how to do this.
[6:49]You lazy or, you know, like that, actually when I say everybody, but she just got it.
[6:57]Like I think she must really like kids, you know, I just, I haven't actually met her.
[7:01]We've just worked together the way we all work together now.
[7:04]But I just, she has such a loving, the illustrations are so loving and funny.
[7:11]So I was just totally thrilled to get to work with her.
[7:14]It sounds like it was a great match because the text is funny too.
[7:17]I mean, the whole thing is like almost tongue and cheek and yet also really helpful.
[7:21]I mean, there are like things in here that I've learned myself, you know, should I not
[7:26]admit that?
[7:27]Or just like different ways to doing it like, okay, this is how, this is how you like,
[7:32]I don't know, packed to save the most phase.
[7:35]Or this is how you like, I don't know, I don't do it that way, but I'm going to try it
[7:38]your way.
[7:39]I'll scramble it to your way.
[7:42]Yeah, I will save up the things in my house that have proved most demystifying the section
[7:48]on how to apologize both men in my house, my 20-year-old son and my 51-year-old husband.
[7:55]When they were proofreading for me, they covered that page of post-its that were like,
[7:59]I don't really understand this.
[8:00]What does this mean?
[8:01]And they were just kidding, but they're like the worst apologizers.
[8:04]And I actually felt like, oh, this could be kind of useful.
[8:07]Like, here's a basic framework for apologizing, right?
[8:12]Where you take responsibility and you acknowledge how somebody might feel, it in some
[8:17]ways it's so basic.
[8:18]It takes only half of a spread in the book.
[8:22]And yet it's kind of radical, like in a weird way, that's going to be the heart of people's
[8:29]like emotional lives and taking responsibility in huge ways too, you know, if you even think
[8:35]at like the political level, you know, when somebody stands up and says, wow, I was
[8:39]wrong about that.
[8:40]Like, that's so tremendous.
[8:42]I actually think that's like an entire worldview being able to apologize well.
[8:47]It's true.
[8:48]That's really, it's a skill.
[8:52]You know what would be so cool is if you took this book and made it into like a series
[8:57]and maybe you've already done this and I didn't notice or something, but a series of
[8:59]like really short, like YouTube instructional videos, but all with these characters in
[9:05]this illustration with this blue background and everything, like little animations, like
[9:10]little animations, because some of the things it would be good to see in action, right?
[9:14]Like, you could show someone cleaning the tub and shower or you could demonstrate the
[9:19]handwashing or even like answering the phone the right way.
[9:22]I just feel like this could be such a viral way and that's how so many people get their
[9:26]information out, like especially kids.
[9:28]That might be really cool to do.
[9:29]It's a fantastic idea.
[9:32]I love that idea.
[9:33]We, Bertie and I have done a few like Instagram live events for, we did some for the bookstore
[9:40]word and we showed Tyne and necktie, which she was totally safe to do as, you know, classic
[9:47]non-binary gender girl.
[9:50]She left out with her pride rainbow necktie and Tyne it on live TV and we did writing
[9:56]her, your political representatives and it was.
[10:00]really fun to make videos, and I think, oh my gosh,
[10:03]if we got Debbie to do the animation,
[10:06]we'd be insane.
[10:07]You should definitely do it.
[10:08]Because even when I'm helping my son put a tie on,
[10:11]if my husband's done around or something,
[10:13]I will Google that.
[10:15]And not that your book is not fabulous,
[10:16]and I am going to keep it as close to me as possible.
[10:19]But I don't know.
[10:20]I always Google how to tie a tie,
[10:23]and then whatever video pops up is how I learn.
[10:26]And you have to go behind him and do it like you
[10:29]or tying it on yourself.
[10:30]That's what I always have to do.
[10:31]And I think it drives my kids crazy.
[10:33]It's like the most smothering mother-type thing to do.
[10:37]Like, I'm the admin reach in front of them
[10:40]with my mother arms in the back.
[10:44]So, Kathryn, how did you end up writing a book to begin with?
[10:47]Like, I know this is why you wrote this book,
[10:49]and I know that was the inspiration,
[10:51]but how did you get into writing?
[10:53]Oh, well, that is a good question.
[10:56]I was one of those little kids who wanted to be a writer.
[11:00]Like, from the minute I could actually put words on a page,
[11:03]I wanted to be a writer.
[11:04]And then that was dreammed out of me as an impractical idea.
[11:09]Mental note to all the parents, like, please,
[11:13]just let your kids pursue the things they live.
[11:16]So I was sort of re-rooted through academia.
[11:19]I actually got a PhD.
[11:20]I was kind of set up to be an English professor.
[11:24]And I had been writing the whole time.
[11:27]I'd been moonlighting for a friend of mine
[11:29]who was the editor at Family Fun Magazine.
[11:31]So I'd been writing tons of craft pieces
[11:34]to support myself as a grad student.
[11:36]And that was all through my 20s.
[11:38]And then I wrote this dissertation
[11:41]that everyone said was, like, too readable,
[11:44]which I thought was really sad in the same time.
[11:49]And then I had a baby, one thing led to another.
[11:52]And I found myself sort of turning more and more
[11:56]towards writing for money because we were broke and scrappy.
[12:00]And then I got this gig.
[12:02]I mean, this is just gonna make me sound like such a dinosaur,
[12:05]but I got a gig rating a weekly column
[12:08]about parenting for babysitter.
[12:10]And this was in 2002 when I was pregnant with Bernie.
[12:14]And I wrote this weekly column for babysitter.
[12:17]They paid me $50 a week to do it.
[12:20]And I wrote it for, like, five years.
[12:23]But at a certain point, I turned the first half of it
[12:26]into a memoir.
[12:27]And that was really great.
[12:30]I learned the lesson that you say yes to everything
[12:34]because you just have no idea what it might turn into.
[12:37]But that's how I ended up becoming a writer.
[12:39]It was really necessity to earn a living
[12:42]and combined with this desire to kind of keep track
[12:45]of my kids' babyhoods.
[12:49]I probably read, like, all your articles along the way.
[12:53]You might have, although it really wasn't for everyone.
[12:56]The book was ended up being called Waiting for Bernie.
[12:59]And I read it now and it's so cringy,
[13:00]even though it's, well, it's like 15 years ago.
[13:04]And I was so neurotic.
[13:07]It's like a little painful to me now, honestly.
[13:10]Did you see in the paper recently,
[13:12]there was a study that neuroticism is linked to dementia.
[13:16]There's like an higher risk of getting dementia
[13:19]if you're a neurotic person.
[13:20]And I was like, oh, great.
[13:21]Now I have to worry about that.
[13:23]I, my mother and I sent each other that article.
[13:27]So yes, I did see that.
[13:29]And it makes total sense to me.
[13:30]I feel like, oh my God, at least at some point,
[13:33]I'll be demented and spared my process.
[13:36]So I know it's like that,
[13:38]we at least can look forward to that.
[13:41]That's the firk.
[13:42]It was so rewarding.
[13:44]So we're lining.
[13:45]Oh my goodness, too funny.
[13:47]So do you feel like you're gonna keep tracking things
[13:51]that might be useful to your kids?
[13:52]Or do you think this is like it for you?
[13:54]And now your next one will be like a guide to aging
[13:57]or something like that.
[13:59]I know I really do want to,
[14:01]I have my eye on a menopause book.
[14:03]I can't help it because it's so my kind of topic.
[14:07]It's like inherently hilarious to me,
[14:09]all the terrible things that are happening
[14:12]to my personal body.
[14:13]So both.
[14:14]And I do want to write another book for kids.
[14:18]And we're taping this in the middle of the protests
[14:23]after George Floyd's killing.
[14:25]And I keep thinking like how to be an anti-racist,
[14:29]not that me like lady mom needs to write that book.
[14:33]But I keep thinking about a book
[14:34]that would have different other kinds of roles in it.
[14:39]Like how to be an ally, how to be a friend.
[14:42]Like how to book that would be really formatted
[14:46]in a similar way.
[14:47]But about relationships specifically
[14:50]and being a good friend, a powerful ally,
[14:55]a loving grandchild, all the relationships.
[14:58]So I like that idea, you know?
[15:01]Yeah.
[15:02]Because people keep baiting me now,
[15:04]which is so sweet about the things they wish were in the book
[15:07]or that their kids in the book.
[15:08]And some stuff has come up like how to make small talk
[15:11]with your grandmother, which I thought was so
[15:14]like heartbreaking and sweet.
[15:16]But also like, you're back here.
[15:18]That's not easy for kids, you know?
[15:20]Where we're even how to be in a romantic relationship.
[15:23]I mean, I don't know that I could cover that
[15:25]in like a two-page spread,
[15:26]but just thoughts like how do you,
[15:31]I doubt if someone likes you, like how do you,
[15:34]I don't know all the different,
[15:36]how do you be a sibling and not model your relationship
[15:41]on all that gross, like competitive stuff
[15:43]that's in the media or that you've seen on TV?
[15:47]You know what I mean?
[15:47]Just all the different ways we could approach
[15:50]relationships imaginatively and lovingly.
[15:53]Totally.
[15:54]Do you have advice for aspiring authors?
[15:57]Oh, yeah.
[15:58]I do.
[15:59]I mean, it's probably the same advice you hear all the time,
[16:03]but I have two basic things that I feel like
[16:06]have worked really well for me.
[16:08]One is to maintain all my relationships,
[16:11]and that in this world where everyone's moving
[16:15]all over the place, that has been huge.
[16:17]So the first thing is to say yes to things
[16:21]even if they don't seem so great or pay so well.
[16:24]Not the really terrible things,
[16:26]and nothing that's like against your politics, you know?
[16:29]But stuff that's when you're just starting out,
[16:31]I said yes to everything,
[16:33]and the truth is I still mostly say yes to everything.
[16:36]And then you make these relationships with people
[16:39]and then before you know it,
[16:41]the person you wrote that like co-text,
[16:43]co-text ad copy for is like an editor at o-magazine.
[16:47]And I really feel like that has been the key for me
[16:52]to having really great writing connections
[16:54]that I'm not proud.
[16:58]And I'm my family's primary wage earner as a freelance writer.
[17:02]So I really can't afford to be proud.
[17:04]Like I really will write a lot of kind of crappy stuff,
[17:08]but it also means that then some really lovely stuff
[17:11]floats my way from people I've worked with in the past.
[17:14]So I guess just that maintaining relationships
[17:19]and knowing when to say no as in every area of life,
[17:25]but also saying yes more than you might be inclined to.
[17:28]I love that advice and I haven't heard that before.
[17:30]And it's really, really true.
[17:32]I wrote my first article for o-magazine.
[17:35]I'm sorry if we're talking about myself,
[17:36]but it's like just, no, it's just illustrate your point.
[17:39]My first article I wrote, I was 14 years old
[17:42]and it was published when I was 16
[17:43]and it was for 17 magazine.
[17:45]And my editor there, Rory Evans,
[17:48]I stayed in touch with on and off our whole lives.
[17:50]And what's that, you know her?
[17:53]And it's my etiquette, call him at real simple.
[17:56]Oh my gosh, too funny.
[17:57]I was just gonna say she called me
[17:59]and was like, will you write for real simple now?
[18:01]And I'm like sure.
[18:02]So is that the best?
[18:05]Because you wrote for her for 17 magazine,
[18:08]which I'm so envious of, but I love.
[18:10]Yeah, isn't that, so that's exactly it
[18:13]where you make these connections,
[18:16]you make yourself easy to work with,
[18:19]which is the freelance trick
[18:21]because no one has to hire you.
[18:23]You're not, they're not stuck with you.
[18:25]They don't wanna work with you, they just won't.
[18:27]So I just always think that.
[18:29]I love that about my life
[18:31]because it means all my relationships are as lovely
[18:34]as I could possibly be
[18:36]because it were just constantly mutually deciding
[18:39]to work together, you know what I mean?
[18:41]Yep.
[18:41]We're stuck.
[18:43]And I feel like that's actually an advantage for me.
[18:45]It just makes my life very pleasant,
[18:47]except for the hustle.
[18:49]I'm not more boring as I like to say, the warring.
[18:53]Well, you should write for, we found time.
[18:55]It's my new online magazine.
[18:57]So you should do an article for me.
[19:00]Okay, great.
[19:00]I signed me up.
[19:01]Whatever it is, I'm done.
[19:04]Awesome.
[19:06]Well, now I know I've spoken to you on Instagram live
[19:09]and now we've done this podcast
[19:10]and I would like to be your friend.
[19:12]So we have to like get together in person.
[19:14]Next logical step I feel like.
[19:17]Anyway, well thank you so much for talking to me again.
[19:23]Thank you also for delighting all ages of kids
[19:26]in my household and helping the chores get absorbed
[19:29]by people other than me in a fun way.
[19:31]So thanks for all your family contributions.
[19:34]And so much, thank you for hosting me so graciously
[19:39]two different times.
[19:40]I have just totally loved it.
[19:42]Me too.
[19:42]All right, well thank you so much.
[19:44]Okay, take care.
[19:46]Bye bye.
[19:48]Thanks for listening.
[19:48]Tomorrow, I'm still have time to read books.
[19:50]Please don't forget, subscribe, rate, and review this
[19:55]on iTunes.
[19:55]Tell your friends about it, spread the word.
[19:58]Thanks so much for listening.
[19:59]I really appreciate it.
[20:00]Thanks so much to Page One Books for sponsoring today's episode. I hope you'll all check
[20:03]out my summer beach bundle at page one books.com. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at the
[20:08]Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morningmoon Productions for providing
[20:13]this fantastic intro and out trim music. Thanks for listening. You can always email me at
[20:17]Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.