Glennon Doyle, UNTAMED
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[1:32]And the best time interviewing Glen and Doyle, oh my gosh, I'm such a fan of hers.
[1:37]I'm getting to talk to her.
[1:38]It was such a thrill.
[1:39]I'm afraid I was a little overly, I don't know, obsequious or, you know, too complimentary.
[1:44]So excuse me for all my gushing during the interview, but I just love her.
[1:47]Anyway, Glen and Doyle is the author of number one, New York Times bestsellers untamed
[1:52]a Reese's book club selection and love warrior and Oprah's book club selection as well
[1:57]as the New York Times bestseller Carry On Warrior, an activist and thought leader.
[2:02]Glen and is the founder and president of Together Rising, an all women led non-profit organization
[2:08]that has revolutionized grassroots philanthropy, raising over $25 million for women,
[2:13]families, and children in crisis.
[2:15]She currently lives in Florida with her wife and three children.
[2:18]So thanks Glen and for coming on Moms.
[2:20]Don't have time to read books.
[2:21]This is such a treat.
[2:23]I mean, best podcast title ever.
[2:26]So funny.
[2:27]Oh, thanks.
[2:28]At least yeah, there's that not a recognition for the many of us who don't have enough time
[2:33]to do anything for anything.
[2:35]Yes, it's so true.
[2:38]But fortunately, I along with like a zillion other people made time for your book untamed
[2:43]your most recent one, which is of course like taking the world by storm and was so good and
[2:47]open and honest and amazing.
[2:49]So anyway, thank you.
[2:51]It's a weird time.
[2:52]It was a very weird time to release a book, but it has, it's been amazing.
[2:56]The world's reaction to it.
[2:58]It's really been something.
[2:59]You know, I think there's just nothing like the authenticity that you showed in the book.
[3:03]And especially in relation to, I know the title of this podcast does have to do with moms,
[3:08]but just your whole giving up the martyrdom of motherhood and discovering yourself.
[3:13]It's just so empowering.
[3:15]And like you, I got a divorce from like over five years ago.
[3:20]And I had so many of the thoughts that you had about like leaving your family in a way and
[3:24]having to find your sparkle.
[3:26]And when I read your words, I was like, oh my gosh.
[3:31]Well, so how old are your kids?
[3:33]My kids, I have twins who just turned 13.
[3:36]And I have an almost seven year old and a five and a half year old.
[3:39]Oh my gosh, you're all over the place with the ages.
[3:43]Woo, you're in it.
[3:44]And how old are your, how old are yours now?
[3:47]So my oldest is 17.
[3:50]Just so wild, he will be a senior in high school.
[3:53]So we are doing the whole college thing now, which is very strange because he was just born
[3:58]like last week.
[3:59]So I don't understand how that's happening.
[4:01]And then I have a daughter who is 14 and then another who's 12.
[4:06]And which is the daughter who loves polar bears because I also have a polar bear loving daughter.
[4:10]We have like giant polar bears all over the house.
[4:13]I'm going to like drill a little section.
[4:14]Yes.
[4:15]Yeah, Tish, Tish is the 14 year old.
[4:18]And then Emma is the 12 year old, our little one.
[4:21]So if you don't mind, I'd love to talk a little more about your falling in love with Abby
[4:25]and how you dealt with having to tell your kids about it.
[4:28]And the decision you made to listen to your inner voice and sort of go for it,
[4:33]even though that came with so much sort of risk almost and the indecision and, you know,
[4:39]the bravery that sort of accompanied that.
[4:42]And I know you had so much.
[4:44]I was hoping I could just read like a little passage when you decide that it's the worst part
[4:50]is letting your kids be the reason for your unhappiness, which I thought was so important.
[4:55]And you wrote what a terrible burden for children to bear to know that they are the reason
[5:00]their mother stopped living.
[5:02]And then you also said I'd quit using my children as an excuse to not be brave
[5:07]and start seeing them as my reason to be brave.
[5:09]And then at the end you said I divorce Craig because I am a mother and I have responsibilities.
[5:14]So just take me back there and tell me a little more about that time.
[5:18]Yeah, Lord, have mercy.
[5:20]Okay, so I fell in love with Abby while I was on a book tour promoting love warrior,
[5:31]which was very tricky timing because love warrior was being touted all over the place
[5:38]as this epic marriage redemption story, right?
[5:42]So I mean, it was, it's interesting, you know, a woman's life, it's people like for things to be
[5:52]clear cut and black and white and that wasn't my experience.
[5:54]Like I guess in a way you could say that my marriage was redeemed because we were,
[6:00]you know, we had worked really hard to forgive each other and we were making it work.
[6:08]You know, in the way that families who keep showing up for each other do,
[6:13]but the problem was that I was just pissed off all the time.
[6:19]I was like trying to make it work, trying to wait for forgiveness to just like fall from the sky
[6:25]and stay and but I just had this like level of rubber of rage that just never went away.
[6:35]And, you know, we were dealing with a lot of things, we were dealing with infidelity
[6:39]and that is what a lot of love warrior was about.
[6:41]So some of my rage was about the infidelity, but I don't even like leading without any more
[6:47]because I feel like I've annoyed myself recently because I find myself
[6:52]leading with that. So, so yeah, so my husband cheated on me. So, and I think it's a way of like
[7:01]as a woman framing things that like it's okay for me to do what I wanted because I had this
[7:08]get out of jail free card, right? So like you can honor my decision, you can say it's okay,
[7:15]you can like, you can say well, okay, it's okay for her, she deserved to leave.
[7:20]But I don't want women to think that, like I don't want women to think you have to have a
[7:24]get out of jail free card to honor yourself, right? Because the truth is that while there was
[7:32]the infidelity like crying, I would never end up with each other. I think we would say the same thing
[7:39]like we were dear friends now and you know, we got married because I was pregnant, right?
[7:46]And, and you know, looking back on that time now so much of that, so much I put of this I put
[7:51]them untamed. I just like steamrolled us, man. I just, I was like blinders on. I am pregnant,
[8:00]I'm getting sober. This is my last chance to be like a good girl. I'm gonna have the family.
[8:06]We're gonna, you know, I have this idea in my head of what a family looks like. And what a family
[8:11]looks like is a mom and a dad. And so Craig was gonna have to get on board, right? And in my family,
[8:19]we call my controlling nature just leadership. It's strong. The force is strong, right? So,
[8:29]so looking back on it, I can see that all kinds of mistakes were made and not all of them were
[8:34]on Craig side for sure. Many of them were on my side. And, and so I just had that river of rage
[8:42]and I also had this like deep wondering, like this curiosity, this longing that was like,
[8:48]I'm gonna turn, there's something that's more beautiful than this, right? Because, you know,
[8:53]on my good days, I could just dismiss like real romance as just like Disney crap, like it's not
[8:59]real. This is as good as it gets, right? But I did wonder, you know, like this is good as it's ever
[9:05]gonna be. Like I have this one life and isn't this as good as love gets, right? So then I'm in
[9:13]the first event to promote love warrior. And I will look over in the doorway and Abby is standing
[9:20]there. And listen, it was the weirdest moment of my life because I just, all of me just was like,
[9:28]there she is. Like, that, this is it. And I have no, like I had never even kissed a girl.
[9:35]Okay, I have no context for this experience. I never, it just was not part of my.
[9:43]So, you know, untamed is about what happened next. And, you know, what happened next after that
[9:48]night is we spent, you know, 20 minutes together at that event with those other writers in front of
[9:56]a thousand librarians because it was a librarian convention. That's a second.
[10:00]the way that we eat a person. And then we went back to our lives. She went back to Portland
[10:04]and I went back to Florida. And neither of us were ever the same. We started talking to each
[10:09]other on email and the phone and letters. And we just fell deeply in love. And yeah, so it became
[10:16]this question of not really like love. It wasn't just like, okay, do I love happy or do I love
[10:23]cry? Like will I go have this? Will I break up my marriage or will I stay? It wasn't like that.
[10:28]It was like will I abandon myself or not? Right. It was very deep. It was that I had done
[10:33]anything. It was like, oh, there she is. I think was me. Right. Because something rose up inside
[10:39]me that was my real self that was like the self that I was before the world told me going to be.
[10:45]And it was very clear to me that my decision about whether to follow that self, to lead with that
[10:50]self, to rock the boat, to do the things that that self was requiring me or not, was a decision
[10:57]about whether to truly live with any authenticity, this one wild and precious life we're given,
[11:04]right? Or just not. Or just not rock the boat, go back to my life. And so I almost didn't. I almost
[11:11]didn't. I was so afraid, not necessarily because of the world or my job or my public life,
[11:20]which all that was there in theory. But it was the kids. It's always the kids, right?
[11:25]I just felt like I can't hurt them. Like my job is to make sure that they don't get hurt.
[11:33]So I can't do this thing, right? And that's why we have to really think about these things
[11:37]we tell ourselves about what our jobs are, because it's actually not a payments job, right?
[11:43]Protecting your child from all pain is not a payments job at all. In fact, I think a parents job is
[11:48]pointing their children towards the necessary pain of their life and just walking them through it
[11:55]over and over and over again, because when we teach our children that they can't handle any pain
[11:59]by protecting them from it, they become afraid human beings. What we inadvertently teach them
[12:04]is that they cannot handle the pain of life, right? And they become people who suck, okay? Because
[12:11]people who avoid all pain are sucky people, right? Like we don't need any more of those kinds of
[12:17]of people. We need people who have walked through the fire over and over and over enough times
[12:22]to learn that they're fireproof, so they don't have to avoid fire, right? So one day, I'm just like,
[12:28]you know, slowly dying inside. After having decided, I'm going to let this love go.
[12:33]I'm going to just abandon myself again. I'm looking at my daughter and she is,
[12:40]she looks at me and she asks if she can do her hair like mine. And there's something
[12:46]about the way she asked that I realized, oh my God, this child, every time she looks at me,
[12:51]she's asking question, right? How does a woman do her hair? How does a woman love? How does a woman
[12:56]live? How does, and I am staying in this marriage for this little girl, but what I want this marriage
[13:02]for this little girl, right? I mean, if I wouldn't want this marriage for her, then why am I modeling
[13:10]that love and calling that good parenting, right? And that's what so many of us do. We just,
[13:15]we got this memo that the parenting that mother, motherhood is about murdering yourself,
[13:22]right? That what a mother should do is just bury herself, just bury her needs, her emotions,
[13:29]her personality, her desire, all of it, just bury it cease to exist and do that in the honor of her
[13:37]children, right? Would you such a terrible legacy to pass down? I can't tell you how many friends I
[13:44]have right now who are currently wanting so badly to give themselves permission to live fully,
[13:54]but what they're struggling with is the fact that their mothers were martyr mothers,
[14:00]so they can't free themselves to live because their mother has passed on this legacy to them,
[14:06]that that's not love, right? So women of our generation, also who were raised by
[14:13]martyr mothers are battling this idea. Okay, what is love? Is love to disappear for the beloved,
[14:22]right? Or is love actually never, ever requires disappearance, that love always requires the
[14:30]full emerging, right? The deeper the love, the more we fully emerge, we don't bury ourselves,
[14:36]we don't disappear in honor of love. So that's really when I figured out, oh, like, if I, what would I tell
[14:43]my daughter, if my daughter came to me and said, I'm slowly dying and I have this chance,
[14:49]you know, I've come alive for the first time and I have this chance to have this beautiful
[14:54]love. What would I say to her? I would say, get the hell out, do it with grace, do it with truth,
[15:01]do it with honesty the whole way through, but do it, right? So yeah, a lot of untamed is just,
[15:09]it's just what you know what Walt Whitman said to do, just reexamine everything you've been taught
[15:13]in books, in school, in the world, and just dismiss whatever insults your own soul.
[15:19]And the idea that a mother that women in any area should slowly die to be successful or should
[15:27]disappear to be successful. It just insults myself. I'm not going to do it anymore.
[15:32]And then, of course, that's when real success happens, right? When you get in touch with who you
[15:35]really are, because the world can tell when you're faking. I feel like women are very good at
[15:41]thinking that they're pulling off this act, but everyone else is a little wiser than I think
[15:47]they give credit for. I know. Yeah, everyone else's acting too. Yeah. It's like, I mean,
[15:53]not how you know when you like, of course, we have, that's why I named it untamed, right? I mean,
[15:59]we have two selves. We all have two freaking selves. We have our team self that goes out into the
[16:06]world. And people says, how are you? And we say, fine, everything's fine. And we do this script.
[16:13]And then the untamed self is the self that's inside. It's like wanting to say the real thing,
[16:18]wanting to tell the truth, right? So I think it's never going to fully happen for anybody. But
[16:25]I do like the goal of living with integrity, which means to me integrity is nothing to do with
[16:32]the right and wrong. Like right and wrong are just made up constructs that are different for every
[16:36]culture, every group, every religion, every whatever. But I love the word integrity, meaning
[16:44]integrated, right? That like your inner self and your outer self are as close to one thing
[16:51]as you can get them. Right? That to me is freedom. That's like whatever the opposite of slowly
[16:59]dying inside. And for women, what that means sometimes is the willingness to lock the boat, right?
[17:08]Because we are so used to just swallowing, to just silencing our untamed self and just
[17:15]faying the script and do it, keeping the peace. Because there's such a cost to telling the truth
[17:22]because it causes discomfort, because it causes a people, it causes chaos. But what we haven't yet
[17:29]examined is that there's a price to pay for not doing it too. Right? The price of avoiding
[17:37]outer conflict is constant inner conflict. Right? The price of constantly making other people
[17:44]is that we are never comfortable in our own skin. And the irony of all of it is that
[17:51]our strategy isn't working, right? Like in our desire to make other people comfortable,
[17:57]they are never comfortable because what our people learn from us is that they can also never
[18:01]lock the boat. That they can also never allow themselves to save things. So one of the most beautiful
[18:08]things about untaming is that we think, oh, I can't do that thing because it'll hurt my people. But
[18:12]in the long run, it serves your people because all anybody needs is a permission and freedom to be
[18:18]fully themselves. It's all anybody. And so when we as parents allow ourselves to live fully even when
[18:26]it makes other people uncomfortable, what our people learn is, oh, I get to do that too. Right? And the
[18:32]freedom is a ripple effect. And that's why they say there's no such thing as one-way liberation,
[18:36]right? When we as mothers free ourselves, we are automatically freeing everybody in our vicinity.
[18:42]So, you know, it's just like even our strategies don't work. Even our make everybody happy
[18:47]strategies make nobody happy. So true. And yet we're so used to doing that. It's like second nature,
[18:53]you know, it takes a lot to sort of break free from that habit, if you will. I love how you
[18:59]said, you know, when we were born or our mothers had us in another generation that the dictate
[19:06]was like, go take your baby, make sure they're fed, make sure everything is well, protect them,
[19:10]and how you want to say something totally different to your kids. Like, you wanted to say,
[19:15]here is your baby. Love her at home, at the polls, in the streets. But everything happened to her
[19:20]be near. Like, that was amazing. I want to like, well, find it more easily than I just did right now.
[19:26]But I also want to like post it, you know, and put it like on my bathroom mirror the way you
[19:30]had like your expression on your bathroom mirror. Just as a reminder that like, we can't solve
[19:35]our kids problems ever. It's not even helpful. Like you say, like, all we can do is be close
[19:40]and just be supportive and just be there. And that's, it doesn't have to be so much more than that
[19:47]as long as you love them, right? No. And we just got such bad propaganda for our parenting generation,
[19:54]man. I mean, we just got, they just told us, you know, your job is just a parent. It's just
[20:00]to protect your child from everything.
[20:02]Just never let a drop a rainfall on her head.
[20:05]Let make sure everybody likes or makes sure she wins
[20:07]every single competition, make sure every teacher,
[20:09]she's every teacher's favorite,
[20:10]make sure that everyone's her friend,
[20:12]like make sure she never loses.
[20:14]Like it's just, and then we wonder why we're neurotic
[20:17]as parents and we feel like there's all the time, right?
[20:19]And then our children suck.
[20:21]Listen, people who do not suck are people who have lost, right?
[20:25]People who do not suck are people who have felt unkindness.
[20:28]So they don't want to pass it on.
[20:30]People who do not suck are people who have been allowed to fail,
[20:33]felt the sting of failure and learned for the next time.
[20:35]Like people who do not suck are not people
[20:37]who have never overcome anything, right?
[20:40]They're people who have overcome and overcome and overcome.
[20:42]So because of this bad memo,
[20:44]we got about parenting being protecting our kids from pain.
[20:47]We are grabbing from them the one thing
[20:49]that will allow them to become the people we dream they'll be, right?
[20:52]Which is people of wisdom, of courage, of resilience, of kindness,
[20:57]all of those things, those characteristics we want for our kids,
[20:59]they all come from pain, they all come from overcoming, right?
[21:03]So it's not just that our, it's not just that our memo
[21:06]that our false ideas, our false beliefs about parenting
[21:10]are making us neurotic because they are and they're annoying,
[21:13]but they're also causing harm, right?
[21:15]The helicopter generation, the lawnmower generation,
[21:17]like we are stressing ourselves out
[21:21]and we're creating kids who are not ready to be human, right?
[21:26]and who don't know their own strength
[21:28]and don't know their own power
[21:29]because we protected them so much
[21:30]that they've never had to figure anything out.
[21:33]I did that.
[21:34]Oh my God, my first two kids bless their hearts.
[21:36]Good luck.
[21:37]I didn't figure it out until the third.
[21:40]So.
[21:41]I know, I feel like third kids are us.
[21:44]I feel like third kids have it like the world
[21:47]is there oyster because at the time we get there
[21:50]and we at least know what we're doing
[21:51]and can be like, all right, whatever.
[21:53]I mess that up, but that's like a sunk cost.
[21:55]And you, so cost, you child are sunk cost.
[21:59]Yeah, sorry about that.
[22:00]It's like pancakes, like you screw up the first one
[22:03]but the rest turn out, okay?
[22:05]This is sad for the first one,
[22:07]but also do you notice about the more you have
[22:10]the less like neurotic you are?
[22:14]Like that's why I think my third is she's wild in the way
[22:21]that I always need wild, which isn't like necessarily loud
[22:24]or whatever.
[22:25]It's just wild to me means like what you were born to be.
[22:30]Right, your wild is like your truest self.
[22:32]Like I have our middle child tissue,
[22:35]her wild is actually quite cautious and quiet.
[22:38]So when people pressure her to be louder and to be,
[22:43]that's when she's moving out of her wild, right?
[22:46]It's when she's acting to please other people
[22:49]and Emma, the little one, I mean, oh my God, she's just,
[22:53]I don't know if I just like didn't take the time
[22:55]to teach her how to act or she's just herself all the time, right?
[23:02]And she has, she's created this self of hers
[23:05]and she is well pleased with herself and her wild is loud.
[23:11]But this goes back to what you said at the beginning though
[23:13]that you showed her who you really were.
[23:14]She had more time, more percentage of her life
[23:17]with you being your authentic self versus any sort
[23:19]of excellently of what you could have been.
[23:21]And so she's responding to that.
[23:23]So it's like you're proving your own theory.
[23:25]Thank you.
[23:26]This is not landing there.
[23:32]Tell me for just a second more about together rising
[23:34]and all the amazing stuff that you're doing
[23:36]because it's like unbelievable.
[23:38]And I watched your video even today on loving and fighting
[23:41]at the 12 minute video of the one on Instagram,
[23:43]which is an amazing, like giving your platform over
[23:46]and all the things you're doing in every way,
[23:49]trying to help everyone in the world,
[23:51]like another Theresa, like it's unreal.
[23:54]It's amazing and you're doing it too.
[23:56]It's not like you're trying.
[23:57]You are doing it and affecting change.
[23:59]So tell me about that part of your personality
[24:02]and that mission of yours.
[24:03]I mean, listen, I think it's all the same thing.
[24:06]I think like when women start to honor their discontent.
[24:14]Like I said, that's how I wanna say it.
[24:16]Like I feel like we aren't allowed,
[24:18]we are trained to be grateful all the freaking time, right?
[24:21]We are trained that if we ever want more,
[24:23]if we can ever imagine more that we're not being grateful
[24:25]enough, we're not be, that if we're ever angry,
[24:28]it means there's something wrong with us, right?
[24:30]Not that there's just something wrong in the world,
[24:32]which is what it usually means,
[24:33]that we're too emotional,
[24:35]that these are all just ways to shut women up, right?
[24:37]And I think that when women start to honor their discontent
[24:40]and their relationships and they're like,
[24:41]actually, I don't know, that's not,
[24:43]this isn't working for many more.
[24:44]This is what I'm gonna need, right?
[24:46]And then women as mothers start to say,
[24:48]actually, this whole thing I've bought into
[24:51]as what it means to be a mother, it's not working for me,
[24:53]like it's killing me and it's making my children,
[24:55]so I'm gonna do something different.
[24:57]And then those women start to do that out in the world, right?
[25:01]Women look at institutions that are like,
[25:03]actually, I'm not crazy, this shit is crazy.
[25:06]Like, and then they start to say, you know,
[25:09]because women what we want is really good.
[25:12]Like, women want, my job is to listen to women,
[25:15]I've been listening to women for a decade,
[25:16]like, what women want is, you know, rest.
[25:20]All of them and I talk to you want rest, okay?
[25:23]A good freaky mentally, a little less to do,
[25:26]a moment to breathe, connection, purpose, peace,
[25:29]and justice and fairness for their children
[25:31]and peace and justice and fairness for other people's children.
[25:34]Like, when women start to honor what they want
[25:38]in their relationships and in their homes and in the world,
[25:40]amazing things are happening.
[25:42]And that's what together rising is,
[25:43]it's just like a bunch of women who have decided,
[25:44]actually we're not crazy, we're got to give to us, right?
[25:47]Like, enough with the gas lighting,
[25:50]the reason why we're angry is because there's a lot
[25:52]to be angry about, right?
[25:53]The reason why we can imagine more is because
[25:56]we were meant for more, right?
[25:58]And the reason why we're brokenhearted
[26:00]is because there's so freaking much to be brokenhearted about.
[26:03]And since angry, brokenhearted women are the only people
[26:05]who have ever affected change in the history of the world,
[26:08]it is wise to gather them together, right?
[26:11]And to start confronting systems
[26:14]and institutions that are forgetting the same people
[26:16]over and over and over again,
[26:18]and serving the same people over and over and over again.
[26:21]So I think what together I think is just an iteration
[26:24]of continuously becoming untamed.
[26:26]It's, you know, I think in the last seven years
[26:30]we've raised $27 million for women and children in crisis
[26:34]domestically and all over the world.
[26:36]And it's the great honor of my life.
[26:39]It's, I think it's what every podcast, every book,
[26:41]all the stuff that I write about is really about,
[26:44]I think that's the trick of the universe.
[26:46]Like, the universe gives you this like talent
[26:49]that you feel so good about.
[26:50]And you're like, oh, I'm good at this thing.
[26:52]This is like gift.
[26:53]So then you do the thing.
[26:55]And then it's really all just a hook
[26:57]to get you into service, right?
[26:59]It's like, thanks for coming.
[27:01]Now we're gonna need you here.
[27:02]You're gonna need to do that talent for this thing, right?
[27:05]So yeah, I just hope to be doing that work.
[27:08]And I get to do it with my sister
[27:09]and I get to do it with a lot of dear friends.
[27:11]I have found that I'm not like a socially normal person.
[27:16]Like I've never been able to keep friendships.
[27:20]And I don't know how to do it.
[27:21]Like it feels so overwhelming.
[27:22]Like I don't know how to keep texting back
[27:24]or like remember birthdays or have baby showers.
[27:28]But I do know that the bonds that you create
[27:33]with people that you're doing while changing work with
[27:35]is my jam.
[27:37]Like the fact that I get to do this work
[27:39]with the women I'm doing it with
[27:42]is probably the real gift.
[27:43]That's amazing.
[27:44]So inspiring.
[27:45]You're just like,
[27:46]I feel like you should be the one running the country.
[27:48]You should be like up there spreading this message
[27:50]in more ways than just this.
[27:52]But anyway, that's just my two cents.
[27:54]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[27:56]I know you like made fun of your little gift,
[27:58]which is really a gift, not to be like overly, you know,
[28:01]complimentary and weird, but do you have any advice
[28:04]to aspiring authors having written best-selling books?
[28:08]I do.
[28:09]Number ones and all rest.
[28:10]First of all, my first piece of advice
[28:12]is to keep your computer plugged in because I'm not too lazy.
[28:15]Okay.
[28:16]Yeah, I feel like the first thing I would say
[28:20]is that if I can tell you the amount of people
[28:23]that write to me every single week
[28:24]and I'm like, I think I might be a writer,
[28:26]but I don't know.
[28:27]Like how do you know?
[28:28]I think I might be a writer.
[28:29]And I think that this question reminds me of
[28:34]when I first started going to AI meetings.
[28:36]I know that this sounds weird,
[28:38]but it's going to come back together.
[28:40]And I used to sit in these circles,
[28:43]like in the basements of these churches.
[28:45]And we always had these brochures
[28:48]that like you might be not the hollick if, right?
[28:50]And people would like sit down and take the quiz,
[28:53]like am I, am I not?
[28:54]And I used to always look at us and think,
[28:56]why don't we have to take a quiz to find out?
[28:58]Like we're here.
[28:59]We're like in a circle, having come to an AI meeting.
[29:04]Like people who do not have drinking problems
[29:08]don't end up in these basements, right?
[29:10]Like the jig is up, okay?
[29:12]People who are not alcoholics
[29:15]don't constantly wonder if they're alcoholics, right?
[29:17]And people who are not writers
[29:20]don't constantly wonder if they're writers.
[29:22]This I know.
[29:23]So if you are a human who wonders often,
[29:28]if you're a writer, then to me,
[29:29]that means you are for sure a writer, okay?
[29:32]That's your clue, wondering if you are.
[29:35]Having a hunch that you are.
[29:36]And then the other thing that I would say
[29:38]is that I guess it depends on a person's desire
[29:43]because if the desire is to be an author,
[29:46]which to me means like a person who has published books
[29:49]that other people have read in some capacity.
[29:52]To me, that's different than being a writer, okay?
[29:56]So being a writer is what I hold the most
[30:00]Dear, I have friends who are writers who have been to become authors.
[30:04]I have friends who are writers who have never become authors and are the best writers I've ever known.
[30:08]I have friends who are writers who became authors who are not that good of writers.
[30:13]So for real, so if what you want to be as a writer and by that I mean you just want to experience
[30:20]the world deeply and then experience it twice by going to your computer and trying to make
[30:26]sense of it through words and communicate it to other people and like you feel like anxious
[30:33]until you can do that like until you like you have this okay so this is so random but I feel like
[30:39]for me it's like having to pee. Okay it's like you get an idea and you're like if that's
[30:43]what the beginning when you kind of have to pee a little bit and then you keep thinking of it
[30:47]and then it's like now I have to pee or I'm going to die it's like this is just so I can't believe I
[30:53]just described it that way but I feel like that if that if that's the kind of feeling you have
[30:58]about writing then you have to write and it almost doesn't matter what comes next. I mean I had to
[31:03]write to nobody for 10 years before anybody was like do you want to write a book? It's just you have
[31:10]to be willing to do a hell of a lot of time that nobody might ever see which means that if you
[31:18]really want to be a writer you kind of have to not be able to live unless you write.
[31:23]It has to be something that you can't not do right and then I just think in order to be a writer
[31:30]tragically you just have to write. I haven't found another way around that. I think what you have
[31:37]to do is sit down for an hour every single day and promise yourself that you're not going to move
[31:43]from the chair for an hour whether you write one good word or 400 that you are not going to
[31:49]abandon what you know about yourself. You're going to honor that by giving yourself an hour a day.
[31:54]I love that. Glenn and thank you so much for coming on momstone time to read books. Thank you for
[32:00]all of your amazing authentic sharing in all of your channels and thanks for being such an inspiration.
[32:07]Oh thank you this was so fun. I loved every minute of it.
[32:10]Oh good, it was so fun. My pleasure. Take care.
[32:40]You can always email me at zibi at zibiowans.com.