Marian Keyes, GROWN UPS
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast.
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[0:46]Mary and Keys is one of the most successful Irish novelists of all time.
[0:51]She's written 14 novels, including Lucy Sullivan is getting married, Rachel's holiday,
[0:55]and her latest grown-ups. Her books have all been best-sellers with 30 million of her book,
[1:00]sold in 33 languages around the world. Anybody out there want the British Book Award
[1:05]for popular fiction and the Melissa Nathan Prize for comedy romance?
[1:09]This charming man won the Irish Book Award for popular fiction. In 2009, she wrote
[1:14]Saved by Kate, which we'll discuss later, and three collections of journalism,
[1:18]including Under the Duvet and Further Under the Duvet, and making it up as I go along notes
[1:23]from a small woman. She was born in Limerick in 1963 and spent her 20s in London and now lives
[1:29]in Dunlug hair with her husband. So, welcome to Mary, and I'm so excited to be talking to her
[1:35]today. Hi, how are you? Hi, Zivi. Can you hear me? Yeah, it was great moment there, but yeah,
[1:41]I can hear you. Thanks so much for coming on my show. It's so nice to talk to you. I'm not
[1:46]out. Thank you so much for having me. Well, you have, there is so much to talk to you about
[1:52]all of these books. Your latest book is amazing. Your whole career. I heard that you didn't
[1:58]even know you wanted to be a writer, that it was just something that kind of fell into your lab.
[2:02]Yeah, I didn't start writing until I was 30 and at that stage I had gone to law school,
[2:08]I was working in accounts, and it was only kind of when my life started,
[2:14]kind of shorting down, anyone who knows my story knows that I'm in recovery for alcoholism.
[2:19]So, it was the tail end of my alcoholism was when I started writing, and I do think they were
[2:23]very, very linked, the two, the two items. So, I went to rehab, and when I came out of rehab,
[2:29]I realized that writing was what I wanted to do. And, you know, within 18 months of coming out
[2:35]rehab, my first novel was published. And, you know, I was a late starter, but I feel
[2:41]it happened at the right time for me. Well, and then tell me about in 2009, so you started writing
[2:47]fiction, and then you started not to jump right into your most Stephen's darkest secrets here,
[2:53]but let's go right to depression. So, you had the beginning of a depressive episode, and then
[3:02]baking got you out of it, which is so inspiring. Anybody can bake, tell me about that.
[3:07]I'll make, except me, at the time, like, I am so not a baker, I am so not a domestic person.
[3:14]And, I was in the absolute horrors, as anyone who's been through depression will know.
[3:18]And, like, it was this sort of primal urge to bake, to cake my friend, it was her birthday,
[3:24]and I thought, flower, eggs, chocolate, I can do this. So, I baked to her cake, and
[3:30]honestly, baking saved my life for, you know, for a good few months. Like, it was all I was able for,
[3:38]and it can't be. Like, it's so small, things like sieving, flower, weighing, things like it,
[3:43]it very much, it's like, you know, acting out your mindfulness. It's very, very in the moment stuff.
[3:50]And then, you know, there's the miracle of it. Like, it goes in, looking like one thing,
[3:53]and it comes out like completely different and amazing. And then you get to eat it. I mean,
[3:58]everything about it is just fantastic. So, when I got a little bit better, then I wrote
[4:04]saved my cake, which was, oh, yeah, my husband used to take photographs of all the things I'd made,
[4:09]because, I mean, we worked together, and when I wasn't well, our life just fell off a cliff,
[4:15]so we had to kind of make our own entertainment. So, the book has his photographs and the things
[4:20]I made, and it's kind of self-helpy as well. Like, I mean, I write how I felt when I was making a
[4:27]particular batch of things, and hopefully anyone who's gone through the horrors might find it
[4:32]helpful the way I did. Wow. How great that you put that down and shared it with everybody.
[4:37]And the pictures, too. That's great. And then, of course, in your latest book,
[4:42]Kara, who's one of the main characters, ends up having an eating disorder herself and
[4:47]compulsive overeating and bulimia and resist treatment at first. And how does that, I feel like
[4:54]we have the cake, we have the eating, this whole theme of food that runs through some of your work.
[5:00]Tell me a little bit about that and how you decided on that trajectory for that character.
[5:05]Yeah, I mean, the thing about grown-ups is it starts at the end in that all the characters from
[5:11]the book and they're, you know, kind of this glamorous family of three brothers and their wives,
[5:15]their ex-wives, their adult stepchildren. And they're added to your inner party. They spend a lot of
[5:19]time together. They get on very well on the surface, underneath things are far more complicated.
[5:24]As they always are, with any group of people. And three people have their secrets out of it,
[5:31]because one of the wives gets concussion. And when I started the book, I knew that I needed
[5:38]secrets. And I mean, money is always a good one. Infidelity is always another one. And then,
[5:46]I was thinking about what would I hate to be in a situation with? And I thought, well,
[5:51]addiction, you know, because I mean, I'm in recovery for alcoholism and I really understand
[5:56]the secrecy. Like, I don't have an eating disorder. It's really important to say that.
[6:00]But I understand that, you know, the burden of it. And so the idea of this woman suffering from
[6:07]bulimia came to me. And I feel like, as eating disorders go, bulimia is a particularly brutal one
[6:15]because you hide and play in sight, you know, with other eating disorders, you know,
[6:19]at either end of the spectrum. It's evident your body is your evidence, you know, that you're ill.
[6:25]But with bulimia, people kind of trod John for years and years with this monkey on their back,
[6:31]with their voice in their head. And I know what he really knows. And I thought it was kind of needed
[6:37]to be written about. And locally, people who have bulimia who are recovering have read it and
[6:43]they said that I did it accurately, which is really important always. You know, when I write about
[6:49]somebody else's journey or their pain, it's so important to honor it and do it properly.
[6:54]I think you did. I mean, I also don't have bulimia, but I mean, it was so candid and open.
[7:00]And even just a little details that you included about how she felt so watched when she finally
[7:05]did just have dinner again with her husband, just all these little things that make a character
[7:10]not really just a character, but a true person in your mind when you're reading it. So I don't know.
[7:14]It's really great. But that's lovely to hear because for me, I think I'm all about characterization.
[7:21]I really want my characters to be complicated and flawed and nuanced. And as you say,
[7:26]to have those tiny details that people would pick up on and say, oh, yeah,
[7:30]I remember feeling like that. Or yeah, I can, I can identify with that even if I haven't gone
[7:34]through. So thank you, Zippy. So you're welcome. How do you come up with all the ideas for all of
[7:39]the different books? You've written so many novels and collections of essays journal. It's just
[7:44]you have so much. And even like the log on your website. And you're just like a content factory.
[7:49]How do you come up with the ideas? I mean, I don't feel like that. But I tell you, I'm fascinated
[7:55]by human beings. I think we are just so interesting because I'm really interested in the gap
[8:01]between the self that we presented to the outside world, which is only a tiny, tiny version of
[8:05]ourselves. I was really going on underneath where it's this universe of feelings and longings and
[8:12]shame and secret and, you know, secret laws. And that's it's that gap that I love to explore in
[8:20]everybody. And I mean, I suppose I feel that almost everybody is well intentioned. And that's what
[8:26]I try to bring to, you know, to kind of see people through that prism. Like that many,
[8:31]many of all of us do things that we were ashamed of. I mean, I speak for myself, you know,
[8:35]like inadvertently, I will make mistakes. I'll hurt people I didn't mean to. And that's,
[8:42]it's hard to live with that. But I think if I write my characters like that, well, it gives me
[8:47]ease. And I like to read about it in other people's books. I think, oh, it's not just me, you know,
[8:52]there's a relief and seeing somebody else's kind of flawed humanity. And I, I mean, I live in Ireland.
[8:58]I'm surrounded by people who I find extremely entertaining. Like, I lived away from Ireland for a long
[9:06]time. And I love being back here. I love how people people use language here. You know, people are
[9:11]great at conversation. They have kind of excellent terms of phrase that you don't get on other
[9:17]English speaking countries. So I mean, that helps. Also, I'm really close to my family, to my
[9:22]brothers, my sisters, their wives, you know, husbands, kids, and all of that. And they're, you
[9:27]know, they're great source of inspiration rather than material. Like I don't put the real people
[9:32]in books, but there's always stuff. And also, there's that thing that you said in the beginning
[9:37]that like I've had my dark times in the trenches with, you know, poor mental health and with
[9:43]addiction. And I think that has given me knowledge and insight and compassion as well to bring
[9:49]to characters. And I think maybe people trust me because I think, okay, you know, she blew her life
[9:56]up in her face at least twice. You know, we can trust her. That's
[10:00]She is not going to be saccharin in what she writes,
[10:05]the way she depicts people.
[10:06]So there's all of that.
[10:07]And I mean, I love what I do
[10:10]because I didn't come to writing until I was 30.
[10:14]And because I had spent so many years feeling wrong
[10:17]and pointless and, you know, the square peg in the round hole
[10:21]and that I always would be to be now
[10:23]in something that I get such joy from.
[10:26]I really want to do it well.
[10:27]Like, it gives me huge pride to write a book,
[10:30]the people go, I love to that.
[10:32]You took me away from myself
[10:34]and you took me away from the world for a while
[10:36]and you gave me comfort and you made me smile
[10:39]and you made me cry.
[10:40]You know, all of that is so rewarding.
[10:43]Yeah, I mean, I get so much back from my readers.
[10:46]It's a very, very symbiotic, nurturing relationship.
[10:51]That's amazing.
[10:51]I think before I started interviewing authors,
[10:53]I didn't realize how much the authors were getting
[10:56]from the readers.
[10:56]I thought their readers took all,
[10:58]but it's actually the opposite.
[11:00]No, the opposite.
[11:02]And, you know, even when people don't like what I've done,
[11:05]it's always interesting.
[11:06]You know, if people have liked to own book
[11:09]and they don't like the next or the other way around,
[11:11]it's always good to know.
[11:13]Wash, what has kind of joined with people
[11:15]and what really hasn't.
[11:17]I mean, it doesn't mean that like,
[11:19]I will change what I do in response to that,
[11:22]but it is still, it all goes in, you know,
[11:25]it's all information which is never a bad thing.
[11:29]And then when you sit down to write a book,
[11:30]what does that process look like for you?
[11:32]Or it's slow as well, should it be very slow?
[11:35]No, it is, it really is.
[11:37]And for me, like, it's all about going deep
[11:40]rather than forward.
[11:42]You know, there's so many people write the way they write,
[11:45]but for me, I only do one real draft,
[11:47]but it takes me like a year and a half, you know,
[11:49]because I'm fiddling, changing things,
[11:52]asking me to have more and more and more about that character,
[11:55]you know, before I can move forward.
[11:57]So I write my spare bedroom upstairs here.
[12:01]I try to do weekdays.
[12:03]I try and stay open.
[12:05]I think for any writer, it's really important
[12:07]to have time on your own.
[12:09]And I hate that.
[12:10]Like, I just love Twitter, Instagram scrolling, you know?
[12:14]Like, click on stuff, like, go on Zara, like all of that.
[12:18]And it's very, very hard to kind of do isolation,
[12:21]you know, to go out for a walk by myself,
[12:23]but that's when things really get untangled.
[12:27]Sometimes my husband will come with me.
[12:29]And that's almost as good as being on my own
[12:31]because we can, you know, we sort of share a brain
[12:33]when it comes to the work stuff.
[12:34]So, you know, but it's slow and I kind of forgive myself
[12:39]for that now.
[12:40]I realize this is my way and that there is no wrong way.
[12:44]And then I'm always worried sick, you know,
[12:48]before I comes out and then I'll be grateful
[12:51]when people say nice things,
[12:54]but for me, it's really about the characterization.
[12:57]And if something is wrong with me,
[12:59]and it's so often is, I know I have to go back and go,
[13:02]okay, I don't believe him.
[13:04]I don't like him and I don't know why
[13:05]and I need to find out, you know,
[13:07]it's about constantly refining.
[13:09]And that's just how I do it.
[13:11]Other people write first draft in 40 days.
[13:14]And, you know, and there are really,
[13:15]the whole thing is done adjusted in three months.
[13:17]And that's not for me, although I wish it was,
[13:20]but look, we are who we are.
[13:23]I mean, it's working.
[13:24]Whatever you're doing is working, right?
[13:28]I mean, really not for law.
[13:29]You know, I mean, I think it's really important
[13:31]as a writer to really eat.
[13:33]I read enough a lot of women and I love contemporary books,
[13:37]you know, anything that's just out.
[13:39]I'm like, oh, give it to me.
[13:40]You know, I want to know what,
[13:42]because I write mostly about women.
[13:44]I want to know what women are feeling and thinking
[13:46]right now about the world that they're living in.
[13:50]What is worrying them?
[13:51]What's making them happy?
[13:53]Well, how is their daily life?
[13:55]And I get a note about that from fiction,
[13:57]which, you know, reading was my first,
[14:00]my first addiction and it's kind of still,
[14:02]still up there.
[14:04]But then we share that, we share that addiction for sure.
[14:06]I'm a huge reader.
[14:07]And I thought it was so nice on your blog,
[14:10]on your website, how you were talking about all sorts
[14:13]of other books.
[14:14]You have a piece of troubling news,
[14:15]like with you're not being a part from your mother
[14:17]with the COVID-19 restrictions.
[14:19]And then your best news,
[14:21]I was like, well, surely recommend her own book.
[14:23]And instead, you recommended these other books,
[14:25]which was just so generous of spirit of you.
[14:27]I was so impressed.
[14:29]That's really, really nice, but I think if I love something,
[14:33]I want everyone to know about it.
[14:35]Like whether it's a book or a TV show or a pair of sandals
[14:38]or whatever.
[14:39]Like I get very, you know, or makeup.
[14:41]Like, I mean, I can never stop talking about that.
[14:43]But if I read a book and I love it,
[14:46]I just get really excited.
[14:47]I think, no, no, you're most free,
[14:48]as you will love it.
[14:50]And one of my favorite things is given books to people
[14:52]or are telling people about something that they love.
[14:56]You know, and when I was younger, you know,
[14:59]when I started out,
[15:00]I felt like the world was a zero song game.
[15:04]So if somebody got something good,
[15:05]it meant that there was less for me.
[15:07]And I'm so glad that I've got older
[15:10]and I've evolved to the point where like,
[15:12]when you give stuff away,
[15:14]I get more back.
[15:16]You know, it's very, it's more to more rewarding
[15:19]to be friends with other writers
[15:22]than to regard them as, oh, the enemy.
[15:24]You know, or kind of, oh, my rivals.
[15:26]And I feel very lucky that I have so many friends
[15:29]who are writers and it's a real honor to be in a position
[15:33]to be able to be up other people.
[15:36]You know, because I still feel like I've only started
[15:38]but actually I've been doing this for 25 years.
[15:40]And it is almost my duty
[15:43]because people have been really good to me.
[15:45]You know, people like you know, like, given me this.
[15:48]You know, so it's the least I can do.
[15:50]Like that's how I want,
[15:52]that's the kind of person I want to be
[15:53]and it was not how I always was.
[15:55]And I'm pleased that I've improved as a human being.
[16:01]That's amazing.
[16:02]I love that.
[16:02]You've already included so much advice
[16:05]and little snippets just from everything you've shared.
[16:07]But if you were to give advice to aspiring authors,
[16:09]what would you say?
[16:11]Okay, there is no magic spell
[16:14]and that's both a good thing and a bad thing.
[16:17]Sit down and write it, you know?
[16:20]Write a sentence, right?
[16:21]If you have a scene in your head
[16:23]and you don't know where it fits in,
[16:24]you don't know whether it's the starter half way to
[16:26]just sit down and write it.
[16:28]And try and commit to like a certain amount of time
[16:31]every day, like an hour,
[16:32]which is kind of doable for most people, I hope.
[16:35]And consider that hour sacred.
[16:38]That no matter what else is going on,
[16:39]you will do that, you will honor what you want to do
[16:42]by giving yourself that hour.
[16:45]I'm right at your way,
[16:46]and don't let perfectionism be the enemy of the good.
[16:49]You know, your first few sentence would applaud you
[16:52]with how awful they are.
[16:53]I mean, that's always the way for me.
[16:55]And writing is so much about rewriting
[16:57]and refining, you know, polishing it all.
[17:00]It would be terrible.
[17:01]You would be appalled with keep doing it
[17:04]because we only get one life
[17:08]and don't go to your grave thinking,
[17:09]oh, I could have written a great book
[17:11]if only I'd have the courage to do it.
[17:13]You know, oh, another thing,
[17:15]pretend nobody is ever going to read it,
[17:17]especially your mother.
[17:19]You know, especially when you're writing to a king,
[17:22]you know, just write for yourself initially.
[17:25]Don't let other people's
[17:27]imagine read judgment, skill what you're doing.
[17:30]But if you want to do it,
[17:32]you owe it to yourself to do it.
[17:33]Like, I can't stress that enough.
[17:36]Please, give it a go.
[17:37]Like, maybe not everyone will find that it's what they want to do,
[17:41]but I'm certain that lots of people will.
[17:43]I think if you've already got the spark and the interest,
[17:46]you know, it's probably going to work.
[17:48]So good luck whoever you are.
[17:49]Please do it.
[17:52]Well, thank you so much.
[17:53]Thank you for coming on.
[17:54]I've been a fan of yours forever.
[17:56]I mean, I remember reading with you so I got married
[17:58]and all these books just Rachel's holiday for just for so long.
[18:01]Anyway, so this is such a treat for me.
[18:03]Thank you for coming on the show.
[18:04]Thank you so much to me.
[18:06]Thank you.
[18:10]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[18:11]Moms don't have time to read books.
[18:13]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[18:17]at Zibi Owens and at Moms don't have time to read books
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[18:23]so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[18:26]Thanks a lot.
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[18:31]Shaka T, which is the line of Hawaii grown
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[18:38]It's a perfect time for your for this tea.
[18:39]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
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[18:48]Thanks for listening.
[18:49]You could always email me at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.