Kara Kinney Cartwright, JUST DON'T BE AN ASSH*LE
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast.
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[1:20]your favorite dad's and daughters can check it out for free. Carrie Kenny Cartwright is the author
[1:24]of Just Don't Be an asshole, a surprisingly necessary guide to being a good guy, which is a
[1:29]Frank and very funny guidebook designed to help teach younger men how to have positive interactions,
[1:35]make good decisions and recognize when they're being jerk faces. That's her words not mine.
[1:40]Carrie lives near Washington, D.C. and works in legal publishing. She married a total good guy
[1:46]and through relentless lecturing, teasing, cash, bribing and tricking, they have raised two
[1:50]sons who are not assholes for the most part. If you happen to know her in person, her book is not
[1:55]about you for the most part. Hi, how are you? I don't believe it's you, Zippy. I can't
[2:04]give it to you on my screen only and not the whole world screen is such a treat. Thank you for
[2:09]talking with me. Oh my gosh, I'm obsessed with your book. I ordered three copies of it. And
[2:14]one of my questions to you is, okay, so your book is Just Don't Be an asshole, a surprisingly
[2:19]necessary guide to being a good guy. So of course I got copies for both my sons. But I kind of
[2:25]of have someone else in mind I want to give it to. But how do you give this as a gift to someone
[2:28]who could use it without being completely offensive? Oh, it's so hard, right? Because as parents,
[2:35]we're allowed to call our own kids assholes, but we're not allowed to call other people's kids
[2:40]assholes. So I don't have the answer to that one. How old is she? It's a grown man.
[2:47]Oh, what happened with the humor? I think that's fair game. I think that's fair game. If someone
[2:53]full grown person and is in need of this book, they should probably have a sense of humor about it.
[3:00]What made you write this book? How did this come about? And tell listeners also what
[3:04]exactly it's about, although I think it's fairly obvious, but you might not know just from the title
[3:09]like how clever it is. I'll probably would guess. But it's so well, anyway, you tell it.
[3:15]Well, I think, well, and you've looked at it. So I'm really interested to hear what you think. But
[3:20]I think it's a direct and frank and funny and sarcastic guidebook to give our teen sons in that
[3:30]moment when it finally dawns on you, even though it's been totally obvious since the day they were
[3:37]born, that they're going to leave you and go out in the world. And as a mom at that moment,
[3:42]I had this sort of panicky feeling, did I tell them everything? Did I say everything? Did we,
[3:49]you know, give them everything they need to go out in the world and be the kind of man that we
[3:54]want them to be? But at that same moment, your influence is really waning with your kids. And
[4:00]in normal times, they're busy, right? They're not around. You have limited bandwidth and limited time
[4:06]to like kind of give them the messages you want. And so a little shock value, a little humor,
[4:13]and a very quick, concise, direct, instruction, I think is probably the best way to go in that
[4:20]interval. And so that's what this book is supposed to be. It's so great. And I love how you organize
[4:24]it, like how not to be an asshole at school, how not to be an asshole, you know, with your friends,
[4:29]with your family in the world, to yourself. Like, it's just so great. It's like in every iteration.
[4:35]And I just wanted to read this one quote. You said, here's the thing, there's no way around it.
[4:39]You have to do school. You have to show up and do school every day until they hand you a cap and
[4:43]gown. Why? Because every employer is looking for doers, not quitters. It's just so great. It's like,
[4:49]you have, like, you don't get a choice in the world. Like, you just don't. Like, this is it. And then
[4:53]you have, and then you have this little thing about, like, jerky things not to say, like,
[4:58]at six in the morning, like, go out and, like, to your parents. Like, I need something for school,
[5:02]and it's like early in the morning, and you have to, like, go get it. It's like, they're just such
[5:06]little gems all all over. And I love, like, all the charts and the graphics. It's just so user-friendly
[5:13]and so awesome. I'm so happy to hear that because my hope is that any teenager who encounters
[5:19]this book laying around the house will pick it up on on every single page. Maybe there's something,
[5:26]right? Like, maybe there's a chart. Maybe there's a sentence. Maybe there's a poll quote. You know,
[5:30]some little thing that will penetrate the teenage mind. And then maybe someday when they need it,
[5:37]they'll have that tool. They'll come back to it and they'll remember, you know, why it's important.
[5:41]So that's so great to hear. There's another book that came out recently. It's called,
[5:45]How to Be a Grown Up by Catherine Newman. Are you familiar with that? I have it. I've seen it,
[5:49]but I haven't read it yet yet. Your two books should be, like, the required go-to book for every
[5:55]teenager. Like, every teenage boy needs to get this, like, little care package.
[5:59]You know what? I might, like, maybe I could figure out a way to sell like a... Anyway,
[6:03]now you have me thinking. But anyway, it's just like, because I think as a parent, I have four kids,
[6:08]but one of my four kids is an almost 13-year-old boy by the time this airs who will be 13.
[6:13]And it's such a challenge, right? Because you want to do your best to teach them how to be.
[6:18]You have to model good behavior. And yet, they're off. You know, when are they listening?
[6:24]When is it sinking in? And at least with your book, it's like, well, when you're ready,
[6:29]hear it. It's, you know, like, so they can... When they're receptive to it, now at least they have
[6:34]all the information. It doesn't have to be me being like... Yeah, listen to me. Are you listening?
[6:40]Did it at so? Anyway. Yeah, I'm so happy to hear you say that because it really was at the time.
[6:48]So the title of the book was actually the idea of my editor, Matthew Benjamin.
[6:53]And so at the time when my agent Monica Verma put us together for this project,
[7:00]my sons were a few months away from graduating high school and college in the same week.
[7:06]And so with that on the horizon, I really did want to create a one-stop final insurance
[7:14]policy manifesto gift. And also it gave me the opportunity to trick them into reading it, right?
[7:19]Because I had to say, listen, guys, if there's anything in here that you feel is a little too
[7:24]revealing or a little too close to home, a little too embarrassing for you and your friends.
[7:29]Like, this is your one chance to let me know before it goes out in the world. And so,
[7:33]you know, that all in one feeling that you're getting from it is really coming out of my own
[7:39]desperation to tell my kids everything I want them to know before they were launching out into the
[7:45]world. So not to put you on the spot or anything. But if you had to pick like the top
[7:50]three tips that were in the book for if there's a mom out there who has a teen son or a son graduating
[7:55]and wants to share, like, what are the three things you think the kids need to hear the most?
[8:02]Right. Well, I mean, it's not a big secret. The Golden Rule is what this book is about,
[8:07]right? That other people who are not your teenage self are also human beings in the world.
[8:16]And so, you know, it seems such a silly and old school message. But really, and I'm not a
[8:23]scientist. I'm not a doctor. But the teenage brain is not really good at appreciating that other
[8:29]people are also fully realized human people. And so, you know, I would say right now in this moment
[8:36]when we're captive with our teens, the chapter on family might be really useful to some parents
[8:44]were in this really difficult moment when our teens are disappointed, they're frustrated,
[8:51]they're angry, they're missing out on a lot of the things they had pictured for themselves
[8:56]this spring and summer. And so, most parents, I think, you know, I do,
[9:04]create in their home a safe space where their children can really be themselves and share their
[9:08]feelings and and vent and, you know, be expressed their true emotions. But the problem with being
[9:15]a parent of a teenager during a pandemic is they're venting it directly in our direction. And so,
[9:22]I think there's there's a moment here where we have an opportunity to talk with our teens
[9:28]to share our own humanity with them and to say I and to acknowledge theirs, yes, right? So,
[9:35]I know you're disappointed about all the things you're missing, but I'm worried too,
[9:39]I'm worried about my job, I'm worried about grandma, I'm worried about what you're going to do
[9:43]this fall, I'm worried about you and your siblings. And so, to the extent that we can convince them
[9:50]that we are also people, which I think we're maybe the last humans that teenagers ultimately
[9:56]recognize as humans, as their own parents, if we can make a little head.
[10:00]way on that. During this very weird time, I think that would be a good thing for everybody
[10:04]in the house.
[10:05]I agree. That would be great.
[10:08]So, Kara, how did you end up writing this book now? What was the rest of your life? Have
[10:16]you been interested in writing? I don't know much about your, I couldn't find a lot
[10:20]of bio material in you out there. So, what are we hiding here?
[10:24]Well, it's funny, you should ask to be very perceptive because I was writing, I don't
[10:30]know, maybe close to 10 years under a pen name online. And I was doing a lot of mom humor
[10:36]and parenting humor. And I had published a little gift book. And so, in 2016, I started
[10:44]having the feeling I wanted to do another project. And I wanted to address what seemed
[10:50]to me to be an increasingly mean America and to address what felt to me like just
[11:00]more and more rudeness in our society. And so, I was pitching this little book and it
[11:05]was called something like, have a nice life. How to save America? One jerk face at a
[11:10]time or something like that. And so, it was sort of similar to this book in that it was,
[11:15]you know, how to be nice at the movies, how to be nice at the PTA meeting, how to be
[11:19]nice, you know, when you're with your pets or just things that just seem to me every time
[11:24]I left the house, I was just feeling so much like, is this how we live now? Like, is this
[11:29]how people act? And so, that project was not successful in that it was sort of about being
[11:38]aggressively, vengefully nice in the world, which is what's confusing for people.
[11:43]And then when Matthew Benjamin was talking to Monica Verma about this idea that he had
[11:48]ever a project for teenage boys of how to be confident in brave and kind with a very
[11:55]simple bottom line message just don't be an asshole. She thought, I think I know the right
[12:01]person for this project. And so, when she put us together and we talked about our sons
[12:06]and we talked about his vision for the book and my thoughts about raising my sons at
[12:11]this time right before they were launching out into the world, it just the stars perfectly
[12:16]aligned and it all came together. So, it's a miracle. Every book is sort of a little
[12:21]miracle, right? Everything sort of lines up with the right people in the right time and
[12:26]the right topic. And so, you know, I feel very fortunate to have worked on this project
[12:32]for my family at this time. So, why a pen name before? And why not now?
[12:37]Well, I was writing something that I called Suburban Hiku, which were my kids were small
[12:43]and I felt like 17 syllables was about how much I could write in the today, but I wanted
[12:50]to do something that was intellectually stimulating and funny and fun for me to do and it really
[12:56]gave me a sense of accomplishment to write a poem every day. And so, my kids were small.
[13:02]I was writing observational humor about my neighborhood and my neighbors. And also, I have
[13:08]a full-time day job in legal publishing, which is a very different culture. And so, at that
[13:14]time, I was using a pen name. And, you know, something we talked about a lot when we first got
[13:19]together about this book was, you know, am I ready to stand behind this with my name and to
[13:25]promote it with my name, considering the cover and, you know, the title of it and the approach.
[13:32]And I was because I think it's important. And I think it's true to our family and our family culture
[13:38]and, you know, I'm happy to share my story. I wrote for a little while under a pen name also.
[13:42]I was doing a bunch of my first foray into writing about parenting and I was afraid of talking
[13:47]about my kids or exposing them. So, I used my whole family. I don't know. Anyway, I used a pen name.
[13:52]And of course, one of the first essays I wrote got so much attention. And then, like,
[13:59]half a post-TV or whatever it was called was like, wanted me to come on and talk about it. And I was like,
[14:03]oh my gosh. I can't do that since so far. This is so long ago too. I don't know. 10 years or so.
[14:10]I don't know. Anyway, I was so frustrated. I was like, no, I bet you I know. You'll have to tell me
[14:15]after I also do that. But I had those two right because you can't talk to news-based outlets with
[14:23]a pen name. And so I ran up against that from time to time. And, you know, during that period of
[14:28]my life, it made sense for me, you know, to draw the line there. You know, it's funny because
[14:33]a lot of my fellow mom bloggers that I came up with talk quite a lot about their kids when they're
[14:38]little. And then, as they get older, they get less comfortable with it. And they save much less
[14:43]about it. And I sort of took the opposite path, bringing my whole family out of the closet,
[14:49]because I felt like they were old enough to decide. Like, they were old enough to decide if this
[14:54]was okay, an okay thing to share. And, you know, if they felt all right with their names
[14:59]being attached to mine out there in the universe with this content. And they did. They were supportive.
[15:04]It is like a really relevant issue for anybody who writes about parenting because, you know,
[15:09]the kids are not just, they're not yours only. They're their own. As you're saying,
[15:14]the whole point is they're their own people. And I mean, I always ask my kids, like, how do you
[15:18]feel about this? But I also feel like, as parents, sometimes I have to sort of, you know,
[15:23]overrule even what they think and be more, like, maybe they're okay with things, but maybe they
[15:28]shouldn't be. And then I think, well, then I shouldn't write. I don't know. If I have any doubt,
[15:31]I don't put it in, right? Yeah. That's right. That's right. Because their teenagers are not
[15:37]highly skilled at looking at long-term consequences, even to themselves, let alone, you know,
[15:45]to the people around them. And so, you know, there are times as a parent where we have to say,
[15:50]I don't think you're really seeing how this is going to work out for you six months or a year
[15:55]from now. And let's talk about that. It's like really, it's a very important part of parenting is
[16:00]to help kids to think long-term. And that's part of what I tried to do in the book is to make things
[16:06]very concrete and very personal because it's hard. It's hard with teenagers. It's this whole
[16:13]COVID thing. They feel invincible. They think it doesn't matter. I don't feel sick. My friends
[16:18]aren't sick. Even when we do get sick, nothing bad is going to happen to us. And it's our job as
[16:22]parents to help them think about, well, what about me and dad? Like, what about your grandparents?
[16:28]What about the cashier at the place where you think you're going to stop and get a drink? Like,
[16:32]these are real people in your life. How would you feel about that if you knew that you were the
[16:37]cause of their illness? And so, you know, that's just just part of being a parent, right? Just to
[16:43]sort of see the writing on the wall or look a little farther ahead than our kids can and try,
[16:47]try. We don't always succeed. And if you wrap it in a bow of humor, right? Like, it's all so
[16:55]funny. And I think, I mean, that's the best way to reach kids. I mean, I think it's like when you
[17:00]make jokes or it's funny, they're so much more likely to listen than when you try to dictate
[17:04]anything. So I can't tell you how many texts. So my my sons are now 19 and 22. And so our 19
[17:12]year old is home from college with us for the summer. My 22 year old lives on his own and
[17:17]knock knock, you know, employed and all that good stuff. But I can't tell you how many texts
[17:22]I ridiculous, ridiculous texts that I sent to them like, you know, wash your hands, save the
[17:26]granny's. And every time I see something on the news or, you know, you just get that mom
[17:34]feeling in your heart like this is not like did I tell them? Do they know? Are they going to do
[17:38]the right thing if they're not in front of me? You know, when my son walks up the door, you know,
[17:44]with his, I know he's going to write his bike. I yell, I love your brain. That's how I say
[17:50]where your helmet, right? Because he's 19. I can't say where your helmet. But I'm allowed to say,
[17:55]I love your brain. So, you know, it helps because you just get a second sometimes of their attention.
[18:01]And so it's in my family, teasing and sarcasm and humor, that's our love language. Like it's
[18:06]not for everyone, you know, if your children are suffering from anxiety, you maybe don't want to
[18:13]say to them like straighten up or you're going to live in the basement forever. Like that might
[18:18]not be the way to go. So you have to know your own kid. So. So what's coming next for you? Are
[18:24]you going to write another book? Are you going back to blogging? Like, what are you thinking?
[18:29]I don't know. You know, in a way, I feel like this book hasn't happened yet because it was published
[18:34]on March 24th. And I haven't seen it in a bookstore yet. It's like I haven't been with people yet
[18:42]who have read it. And so in a way, I feel like I'm still waiting for this one to really find its
[18:49]place in the world. And then after that, I don't know, you know, I never thought I would write
[18:54]another book after suburban haiku, but here we are. This happens. So, you know, maybe the
[18:58]inspirational strike in the stars will align again. I just, I don't know. I don't know. It'll be
[19:04]right now. We're taking a day by day like everybody else. Yes. Good plan. It's like the only way,
[19:09]the only way to do it. Do you have any advice to aspiring authors? Yes. I would say keep trying.
[19:16]I would say keep trying. Just keep writing the words that you write, even if no one reads them.
[19:22]They bring you closer to your true message and your true audience and your true voice. And so,
[19:30]you know, I was writing haiku for a long time. Then to promote my haiku book, I started writing,
[19:37]you know, sort of mom, humor, mom jokes. And then, you know, as my kids got older and their
[19:44]perspective was changing. I was more interested in writing about societal things. And then,
[19:48]you know, that book about just being a nice person in the world. It didn't come to fruition,
[19:55]but it absolutely was the, it's sort of the kernel of-
[20:00]of what this new book became, which was much closer to my heart and with a much clearer audience
[20:05]who lived under my own roof. And so, you know, things just have a way of building on one another.
[20:12]And so, you may think you're writing the book now. And you may look back on it in a few years
[20:19]and say, oh, that wasn't the book. This is the book. And so, just keep going. Just keep
[20:24]going, you know, collect your people. Keep generous, be kind. Keep your take your tribe along with
[20:30]you. And keep growing as a person and your message will grow also. That's great. Excellent advice.
[20:36]Well, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on my show. And thanks for your great book.
[20:40]Maybe this is so exciting to see you on this screen and to be talking with you and to know
[20:48]that this book resonated with your family. And I just appreciate how much you love books
[20:54]and how generous you are with authors. And with our message and lifting our voices up at this
[21:01]weird time especially. So, it's a pleasure, pleasure, pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so
[21:06]much. It's my pleasure. Thank you. Have a great day. Thank you. Bye.
[21:12]Thanks again for listening to my podcast. Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you liked this
[21:16]episode, please follow me on Instagram at zippyowans and at moms don't have time to read books
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[21:28]I'm up to. Thanks a lot. Thanks to today's sponsor, Ali Upe, A-L-L-E-Y-O-O-P. Check it out at the app store and
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[21:44]capital M if that makes sense. Fuck mom. Thanks for checking it out. Thanks so much to Steve and
[21:49]Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[21:54]this fantastic intro and out trim music. Thanks for listening. You could always email me at zippyowans.com.