Special Re-Release: Glory Edim, WELL-READ BLACK GIRL
[0:00]Today in support of the Black Lives Matter movement and the current situation in the country today
[0:08]and the hashtag Blackout Tuesday on social media, I wanted to raise awareness for more Black voices
[0:16]and hashtag amplify Black voices myself. And my tools are somewhat limited. I know this is not
[0:24]something I can understand as a woman who is white, but I do want to use my platform to
[0:31]lift up the voices of others, including some of the authors who I've already had on
[0:37]whose voices I think deserve to be heard again around now. So I'm re-releasing my episode with
[0:42]Gloria Edem, who's the founder of Well-Red Black Girl, which is a Brooklyn-based book club and online
[0:47]community that celebrates the uniqueness of Black literature and sisterhood. She and I spoke in my
[0:52]apartment. Oh my gosh, when was this? I don't know, maybe five months ago or so. And we just had the
[0:58]best time because she established this whole book community and I'm trying to establish this whole
[1:03]book community and I really look up to her as a mentor for how she's expanded and created enthusiasm
[1:10]for books and all the rest. And well, of course, we have so many differences. There's so many
[1:16]similarities in our love of literature. And I just thought I would highlight our conversation
[1:22]and amplify her voice in the current times that we're in. And I really hope you appreciate it
[1:30]and enjoy it. And yeah, that's it. I hope it helps. I'm trying to do whatever I can to really help
[1:38]this movement. And anyway, enjoy the episode. Hi, I'm Zivy Owens and you're listening to the award-winning
[1:52]podcast. Moms don't have time to read books. Please sign up for my newsletter at zivyowens.com
[1:59]for updates on podcast guests and lots of live events. Today's episode has been sponsored by
[2:04]Tink. Lauren Passall on her innovative PR company, Tink, our book obsessed and podcast obsessed,
[2:10]Tink specializes in getting authors on podcast tours. Forbes called it the quote,
[2:16]the first podcast PR company for authors. This is like the coolest idea I have to say.
[2:20]Podcasting is a new world and pitching to podcasters like me, I guess, is an art. So Tink specializes
[2:27]in setting authors up for success to learn more. You can visit tinkmedia.com or subscribe to
[2:33]Lauren's podcast newsletter at podcast. The newsletter dot com. So definitely check out Lauren. She's
[2:39]amazing. And for any authors out there, you should definitely check her out for getting your book
[2:45]onto fantastic podcasts like this one and so many other book podcasts out there. And all
[2:49]types of podcasts. I'm here today with Gloria Edem, who's the founder of Well Red Black Girl,
[2:54]a Brooklyn-based book club, an online community that celebrates the uniqueness of Black
[2:58]literature and sisterhood. In the fall of 2017, she organized the first ever Well Red Black
[3:03]Girl literary festival. She's the editor of the anthology Well Red Black Girl finding our stories
[3:08]discovering ourselves. Glory has a background in startups and creative institutions, including
[3:12]Kickstarter, the Webby Awards, and the New York Foundation for the Arts. She received the 2017
[3:17]innovators award from the Los Angeles book prizes for her work as a literary advocate. She serves
[3:22]on the board of New York City's housing works bookstore. And she currently lives in Brooklyn,
[3:26]New York. So welcome, Glory. Thanks for coming on, mom. So I have time to read books. Thanks for
[3:30]having me. So of course. So Well Red Black Girl finding our stories, discovering ourselves.
[3:35]Tell me about this book. Yes. So this all started from me developing this community Well Red Black
[3:41]Girl online. And I had this love for books that I had read in my childhood and at my college,
[3:48]Howard University. And I wanted to like share that same feeling of being this Well Red,
[3:54]educated, vivacious, curious Black Girl in the world. And I felt like there weren't enough
[3:59]representations of Black characters. And by starting a book club, starting this like online platform
[4:06]on Instagram and Twitter, I was able to kind of pull everyone together. And we were just sharing
[4:11]our the love of our first books, whether it was Tony Morrison or Als Walker or Maya Angelou. We were
[4:17]just having these great conversations about what it means to be a Black woman in the world. And
[4:22]what it means to be sometimes feeling a little bit isolated and how we can come together and just like
[4:28]change the perceptions of what it meant to be a Black woman. And it really, really started because
[4:34]my partner made me this shirt that said Well Red Black Girl. And I would wear it on the subway and
[4:39]people would start like having conversations with me and talking to me. And I was like, there's
[4:44]something here. Like I want to really elaborate like and expand what this means to be a Well Red
[4:49]person. And now it's turned into like this whole literary movement from that one shirt and then one
[4:54]idea. It's really grown into this whole other new experience. So take me step by step. Where are
[5:01]the t-shirt? Yes. People keep coming up to you on the subway. Right. Right. Then what happened? Then
[5:06]you got the then you decided to make an Instagram account. Yeah. So my background has always been
[5:10]in marketing and media. So I studied broadcast journalism at Howard. And I've I've always loved
[5:16]writing. And I never until recently now I'm calling myself a writer and editor. But I was just
[5:22]always someone was passionate about literature and creative writing. And so I'm wearing this shirt
[5:27]and having these conversations. And so Instagram was like a new medium that was like playing around
[5:32]with and I was curious about when was this 2015. Yeah. So my birthday's in December. So the December
[5:39]of 2015, my partner got me the shirt. And then in 2016 spring, I actually started a book club. And
[5:46]the first book club actually was not a book by a black woman. We read Tana Hasey Coates's between the
[5:52]world and me. Yeah. And so and I had I just had like maybe like eight or 10 people friends of mine. It
[5:59]was both men and women. And we were talking about the book. And Tana Hasey is also alumni of Howard
[6:04]University. And so we were just like really moved by the storytelling and the structure and just
[6:10]like our experiences at Howard. There were a couple of book club attendees that were also alumni.
[6:15]And it was just like this really great fun experience. Also, I was new to New York, which is like
[6:20]a big thing too. I just moved from DC where I'm originally from. And so I was craving like
[6:26]fellowship and trying to meet new people. And a book club just felt like the easiest way to kind
[6:31]of like gather new people. And so when you're in a book club, it's like a little bit comfortable
[6:35]to talk to a stranger because you're like, okay, our common like bomb here is this book. And we
[6:40]can go beyond that. So that's how it happened. Where did you have the book club? We did it. And at the
[6:45]time, I was like, I was working in Dumbo. And there was a space. There was actually, it was a book
[6:51]space of far so bum books. They have a space in Dumbo. And so we hosted it there at a friend who
[6:57]like had access that space. And so yeah, we hosted it there. And it was like, it was really great.
[7:02]And after that experience, it was like, okay, I want to do this again. And I was reading a book
[7:08]called The Star Side of Bird Hill, which was the debut book of Naomi Jackson. And she is a native
[7:15]of Brooklyn. She's also from the Caribbean. And the book is beautifully written. It just talks
[7:20]about these two young girls who their mother experiences depression and just like, all these
[7:26]kind of just like unexpected circumstances. And suddenly they have to move from their home in Brooklyn
[7:30]and they have to move with their grandmother in the Caribbean. And it's a beautiful coming of age
[7:34]story. And so I read that book and then I went to Greenlight bookstore where Naomi was signing
[7:40]books. And at this time, I probably had like, I don't know, I had less than 100 people on my Instagram,
[7:46]but I was kind of documenting everything. And so I showed her my Instagram. And I was like, I
[7:50]really love your book. It's beautifully written. Me and some friends are going to gather for a book
[7:54]club. Would you like to join us? So Naomi was the first person to come to like the official
[8:01]well word background book club. And I did a newsletter and invited people and just wasn't.
[8:06]I wasn't thinking like too many of people would kind of like someone sees this and they join
[8:11]that great. But you know, again, I didn't have like these really high expectations that just
[8:15]was like, I'm going to do it and to see. And so she came. She said yes immediately. And it was
[8:22]so beautiful. And she came. And not only did she talk about the book, but she talked about
[8:27]her experience as a writer, like, you know, being an MFA programs, her writing process,
[8:32]like all these things that I wasn't expecting. So it turned into, and a lot of the women
[8:37]that attended were like inspiring writers. And they were also from the same area that she was from.
[8:43]And so like it just again, we're talking about the book, but it spins off into these other
[8:47]beautiful conversations about identity and about motherhood. I have a really complicated relationship
[8:53]with my mom. So there were themes in the book that stood out to me and resonated with other
[8:58]readers. So that was the one that the book other really solidified. Okay, like book up for sure,
[9:03]inviting the author to join us having to be a debut author because that also added to the eagerness
[9:10]of her joining us. It was her first book. And she was really excited that this group of black
[9:14]women can't come to like rally behind her and we're supporting her. And it was like this
[9:18]reciprocal, just like love for both of us. And now me and I are great friends. And it really
[9:23]just started from that one moment where I was like, do you want to come to my book love at Green
[9:28]Light? You know, like, I would have never predicted it would like morphed into this whole
[9:33]other thing simply because I had like the courage to say, you know, do you want to like, well,
[9:39]can you join us? You know, yeah. And luckily I have that very special moment documented because
[9:45]my partner is a filmmaker. And he was like, oh, this is cool. Like I'll record a little bit.
[9:50]And so he did a little bit of video about what I was talking and Naomi. And he like put it
[9:55]it together. Like almost like a little trailer of the book club. And so we were kind of playing
[9:59]with that as it's like a.
[10:00]creative kind of side project that we were doing together.
[10:03]Since he made the shirt for me and, you know,
[10:05]like my love for books and like,
[10:06]well, we're a black girl.
[10:07]It's a little bit of a nickname for what he calls me
[10:10]because I'm always like reading,
[10:11]especially like before we go to sleep.
[10:13]I'm like, don't talk to me.
[10:14]Like, I'm just trying to read a little bit before bed.
[10:17]Yeah, that's how it started from, yeah, that one question.
[10:21]Wow.
[10:22]And now you have an agreement with the ABA
[10:24]that you did to have these pop-ups.
[10:25]Yeah, so I, at one point,
[10:28]I was like, this is growing beyond me
[10:31]and I want to make sure that indie bookstores are represented.
[10:35]I want to make sure that this was something,
[10:37]because that's, I love independent bookstores.
[10:39]I'm from DC, so politics and prose
[10:42]is one of my favorite bookstores in DC.
[10:44]And now in New York,
[10:45]I tend to go to green light a lot as well as word
[10:49]and books are magic.
[10:51]So I like, I love independent bookstores.
[10:52]That's how I buy my books.
[10:54]And ABA is the American Booksellers Association.
[10:59]And I was at a conference,
[11:00]and I was talking to one of their lead strategists
[11:02]about just like how I could expand.
[11:04]And she's like, you know what, we should do
[11:05]a partnership with her name is Joyce.
[11:07]She's just amazing.
[11:08]She's actually there.
[11:09]Now she's their COO, I believe.
[11:12]You can only fact check that for me,
[11:13]but Joyce is so amazing.
[11:14]And she just was like, okay,
[11:16]we work with every single bookstore in the country.
[11:20]Like, what's like, why don't we do a partnership
[11:22]where you share your recommendations
[11:24]and you can work directly with the bookstores
[11:26]and the booksellers.
[11:27]And I was like, okay, great.
[11:29]So we did like a pilot and we kind of, you know,
[11:30]figured out like how to do a newsletter
[11:32]and I went to their Institute this year, which was awesome.
[11:36]And everyone is just so excited.
[11:38]Like, it ranges from like, you know, bookstores
[11:41]in West Hollywood, like book soup,
[11:42]to, you know, small bookstores in Maine
[11:45]or in Atlanta, Chicago, like everyone kind of,
[11:48]they're, I'm giving them the books
[11:50]but they're able to adapt and make the book clubs
[11:52]to fit their community.
[11:54]So for example, one book club
[11:57]is a well-read background book club,
[11:58]but they're really focused on teens.
[12:00]So they do all YA books and they, you know,
[12:02]they read stories that I suggest
[12:04]but they also come sometimes pick some classics
[12:06]and, you know, kind of adapted to what they're interested in.
[12:10]And I've gone to visit some of the bookstores.
[12:11]Like, I went to Detroit to go visit the booksellers
[12:14]as source books, which is really awesome.
[12:16]I've definitely gone to, you know, I'm in LA a lot.
[12:19]So I love visiting book soup.
[12:21]They've like found a really great way
[12:23]to integrate it into their marketing
[12:24]so they do a lot of social media.
[12:26]So everyone kind of like does their own thing with that,
[12:28]but it's still under like the banner of well-read black girl.
[12:32]And the focus is still, you know,
[12:34]supporting black women writers as well as non-binary writers
[12:37]and, you know, writers of color.
[12:40]And it's really about like pushing the diversity initiative
[12:42]in a way that feels genuine
[12:44]and really is making like real change.
[12:46]Like, you can see the conversations.
[12:48]You can see the bodies in the bookstore
[12:50]that are introducing new communities,
[12:53]some bookstores have started partnerships with schools,
[12:55]the community centers, and people are being innovative
[12:58]on about how to just introduce new diverse books
[13:01]and to their stores and to their communities.
[13:04]And it's not just about like saying,
[13:06]oh, we have this cover where there's a lovely person
[13:08]on like, you know, on the, you know,
[13:10]person on color on the cover.
[13:11]It's like, it's more than that.
[13:12]It's like actually like introducing these books
[13:15]and having conversations and dialogue.
[13:16]And it's really community driven,
[13:18]intergenerational as well.
[13:20]Like I love the fact that like moms and daughters
[13:22]come in together and they have conversations.
[13:24]And it's just more, it's, again,
[13:27]and it's like something I could not have predicted, right?
[13:30]Like that conversation would joy,
[13:31]really change my perspective on how I could expand
[13:34]and how I can grow.
[13:35]Because I still do a lot of stuff by myself.
[13:37]You know, it is like myself and volunteers.
[13:40]I'm still trying to figure out the infrastructure
[13:42]of like the business,
[13:43]but ABA has been an awesome partnership.
[13:46]It's been so cool.
[13:47]And telling that the literary festival.
[13:48]Oh my gosh, so, okay, so much to talk about.
[13:53]So two years in, in 2017,
[13:55]after the book club I've been going in
[13:57]and been pretty consistent for two years,
[13:59]I decided that I wanted to do another thing.
[14:03]I was like, we should do a festival.
[14:05]And this idea came about
[14:06]because I was having a conversation with T.R. Jones
[14:09]who I'm a huge fan of her work.
[14:12]And I had the opportunity to meet her at a gala
[14:14]where I was there because I'm Tony Morrison.
[14:17]We were honoring Tony Morrison.
[14:18]It was the author's gala.
[14:20]And it was like the first kind of like fancy event
[14:22]I was like going to as lower black girl representative.
[14:26]And I was a fairy shy.
[14:27]Of course I was like kind of waving in the corners
[14:30]like, you know, bowing down to Miss Morrison.
[14:33]And Tari just came up to me
[14:34]and we started having the conversation.
[14:36]And she just was so warm and glowing.
[14:38]And I'm, you know, like, staying girly inside,
[14:40]kind of like doing like cartwheels
[14:42]because I love this author.
[14:43]Like I've read all her books.
[14:45]I love like Silver Sparrow.
[14:46]And at that time she had not published American marriage yet.
[14:49]It was like right just about to come along
[14:51]to that book by the way.
[14:52]So incredible, so incredible.
[14:55]And so, but she like her presence and her warmth is just,
[15:00]she's like, son, like she just like feels you
[15:03]with so much warmth.
[15:04]And I met her and immediately felt like I had a new friends.
[15:08]And so we were having this conversation.
[15:10]And I was writing, we decided to share a cab
[15:13]all together because we were uptown
[15:15]and we were going back to Brooklyn together.
[15:16]And in that car we were just having these great conversations.
[15:19]And one, I told it as idea.
[15:21]I was like, I think at one point
[15:22]I went into a literary festival.
[15:24]But again, it was like 2017.
[15:25]So I was like planning for next year.
[15:27]And she looks at me like, you should do it this year.
[15:30]And I was like, I don't know.
[15:31]I don't think I could do it.
[15:32]I'd have to do a keynote.
[15:33]I have to do all this stuff.
[15:34]I was like, I don't know if I have this time.
[15:35]And she's like, plan a festival in six months.
[15:37]And she was like, you know, you can do it.
[15:39]She's like, I'll come.
[15:40]I'll be like one of the main people.
[15:42]I'll help you.
[15:43]And I was just like, what?
[15:44]I was like, again, we had just met.
[15:47]So just like, oh my God, I don't know.
[15:48]I got to a lot.
[15:49]But she was just so adamant about it.
[15:51]And her passion and her excitement
[15:53]made me confident that I could do it.
[15:56]So I was like, okay.
[15:57]So two weeks later, I planned to kick starter.
[16:01]I did a crowdfunding campaign.
[16:03]I reached out to the authors that had already participated
[16:06]in the book club in the past to see if they were available
[16:08]to be part of it.
[16:09]And everyone was so gracious.
[16:11]The community was on board.
[16:13]And it worked like we ended up raising like $30,000.
[16:17]We had tarry there.
[16:18]We had Jacqueline Woodson.
[16:19]We had Morgan Perkins.
[16:21]We had Ashley Ford.
[16:22]All these people, I definitely consider just like amazing
[16:26]authors and friends now at like throughout the years.
[16:28]And you're going to have to like connect
[16:30]me to some of these people.
[16:31]Oh my God.
[16:32]He's like dying to have on this podcast.
[16:33]Of course.
[16:34]Of course.
[16:35]It was just like all these amazing people were in the room.
[16:39]And we were having this conversation.
[16:41]And then, thankfully, there was amazing press too.
[16:44]So it just was like this movement that everything was
[16:47]kind of falling into place.
[16:49]And so now that was in 2017.
[16:51]And we just did our third festival last year in 2019.
[16:55]And I added a second day.
[16:57]So I added a family day.
[16:59]Because mom's doing that.
[17:01]So important to like health and moms and the kids.
[17:04]And so I added a family day this year.
[17:06]And I just can't wait.
[17:08]I'm trying to figure out this year.
[17:10]I'm still doing a little just six of the venue and stuff.
[17:13]But we're going to have it in November.
[17:14]And it's going to be great.
[17:15]Like I think like I'm excited for year four.
[17:18]But I think year five is really going to be it.
[17:20]You know, I'm just like five is like our big year.
[17:23]We're going to find even, you know, I'm just really.
[17:26]It's been great.
[17:26]And so that's kind of the outside of the book
[17:29]clubs, the festival is really like our banner event.
[17:32]Everyone comes in.
[17:33]It feels like a big family reunion of sorts, everyone.
[17:36]And we have now, I've been able to find a way to really
[17:40]produce it in a way where I understand how things work now.
[17:43]So I'm like really focusing on genre.
[17:45]I've invited a lot of academics to participate.
[17:48]And this year we had Siddia Hartman come, which was just like
[17:51]so inspiring her book, Wayward Lives, really changed the way.
[17:55]I've been looking at how one uses the archive
[17:58]and how we can tell our histories through preserving images
[18:03]and photos of the past.
[18:05]And it just has opened up my mind.
[18:08]So many great things.
[18:09]So many great things.
[18:10]So that's the festival.
[18:11]Yeah.
[18:12]So how like, this is like a silly question.
[18:14]Like how inclusive versus exclusive is this event to all
[18:18]sort of racist?
[18:19]Because like I'm obviously not black.
[18:21]I'm white.
[18:21]But this sounds like an amazing event.
[18:23]I'd want to take my kids to the same day.
[18:25]But is it only for black people?
[18:26]It's a space that is like centered on the stories and narratives
[18:30]of black women and black families.
[18:33]And we do definitely invite allies to participate and join us.
[18:37]And I think it's really about having people centered on the
[18:39]mission.
[18:40]So if you are supportive and understand that this is a space for
[18:44]black women to congregate and you want to be, you want to join
[18:48]in order to look uplift and to learn more.
[18:50]Definitely.
[18:51]I think also another thing that I'm very keen of that there's so
[18:55]many children mothers that we everyone has like a
[18:58]different family.
[18:59]So there's like biracial families.
[19:00]There are people folks that adopt black children.
[19:03]And so I don't want to isolate like people on this
[19:07]premise that there's like this is only for black people.
[19:10]But you have to understand like this is a space centered on
[19:13]blackness.
[19:14]And if you want to be in it, you have to be there's a
[19:17]mindset that you have to kind of like adopt in order to
[19:19]you know, de-center yourself, you know?
[19:22]So it's like so many times when I'm walking to the room, I
[19:25]am the only black person, whether it's an corporate
[19:27]environment or I mean, with exception in my college
[19:31]experience, I definitely decided to go to a historically
[19:33]black college because I wanted to kind of figure out who I was
[19:36]in the world when I wasn't being compared to someone else,
[19:39]what I didn't feel like I was being tokenized, you know?
[19:42]And that experience in college really, I am confident there's
[19:46]no way I could have developed well with black girl without
[19:48]that because I feel confident in every space.
[19:51]And I don't feel like I'm like minimizing myself or trying
[19:55]the code switch, you know, as people call it, like I'm
[19:58]always just being myself.
[19:59]And so yeah.
[20:00]Like I think that when it comes to people entering this is like if you understand and if you really want to learn and kind of just like sit back, you know, it's like not about like like always asking the question and always being a front and center.
[20:13]It's like, okay, let me see what this is and I really appreciate it and even when it makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable, that's okay, but I'm here to learn and I think if you come in with that attitude, it's you are more than welcome.
[20:25]But if someone comes in and they suddenly like, I think we should be reading this and said, like this isn't the book up for you. If you think if there's a lot of objections or if there's a lot of kind of like, you know, sometimes you walk into room, people really want to create tension or friction just because or just because people are everywhere, you just know what you call your book up.
[20:44]It's true. It's true. There's like people that don't like don't really want to like engage and learn. They just want to just like be argumentative.
[20:53]It's like all of Twitter. That's Twitter. It literally is Twitter. Like I cannot have Twitter inside the book club, you know, and Twitter is a valuable tool and I think it has social media has like lent exposure and visibility when it's used like in a way that's like really innovative and it gives people more platforms and space, but it could also be really toxic too.
[21:15]So I mean, there's been moments where I've been on Twitter where people have said something that I disagree with and I'm like, should we talk on the phone?
[21:22]Because I'm just like, there's like sometimes we're not enough context or nuance on Twitter and things can even on email things can get really like confusing very quickly.
[21:33]I just had a moment where someone was emailing me and I was like, Oh, I think she thinks I'm upset and I really am not upset about something. So like we should come to phone or we should get in person.
[21:42]I think that was another reason why I was very adamant about always having the book club in person, not only doing things online because I love, I love in person contact.
[21:52]I love like communicating in person with people. I love the festival because there's that energy and there's like there's a feeling you get when you're in person and you're connecting with someone like one on one and you know, like you can emulate that on Twitter.
[22:06]You can't do that on what's the other one. You know, it's really important for you to be in contact with people and like communicate with them.
[22:13]I you're like preaching to the choir.
[22:15]I feel like so much of what you're saying. I feel like I could say and just have it be slightly different.
[22:20]Yeah, yeah.
[22:21]I feel like there's nothing that replaces being in person.
[22:24]Just looking up and talking and like how fun is it? Like I get to hear your perspective and we both love books so much.
[22:30]Yes.
[22:31]You know, when I asked if I could come it was more like I love really hearing all people stories. Like I like books of all different.
[22:37]Like I don't when I evaluate books. Yes. I don't sometimes I don't know what race the person that he's writing.
[22:42]Right.
[22:43]It's a good story. Like that's the story I want to read.
[22:46]Yeah. And it's so amazing because I love the conversations that were you know, as a black writer, there's so many things that are just focused on.
[22:54]Race that it can take away from craft, you know, that is that is super problematic because the writing every book that I select.
[23:03]I'm like looking at sense and structure. I'm looking at exposition. I'm looking at I'm just like, I'm looking at the quality of the book.
[23:10]You know, and it's I'm what I'm saying is this is no less of quality simply because it's a black writer.
[23:17]I wouldn't be.
[23:18]No.
[23:19]But some people would, you know, question that.
[23:21]Really.
[23:22]It's I mean, it's crazy, but that's but that's the thing. And that's why like the publishing industry is, you know, has really taken to the movement because it's like I have this platform where I'm able to like profile and like really uplift these stories.
[23:36]And in my mind, I'm like, this isn't you because I've been reading, you know, I've been reading these books forever.
[23:43]You know, why isn't why aren't these on the forefront of the, you know, the minds of so many different readers.
[23:48]Why are we like sectioning things off is like this is, you know, a black genre.
[23:52]Like no, like this is these are great storytellers and they deserve the recognition.
[23:56]Do you feel like they're being sectioned off?
[23:59]Like in bookstores and stuff.
[24:00]Like at times.
[24:01]I mean, I think things are changing.
[24:03]But yeah, definitely.
[24:04]Like they're different.
[24:05]Like what's with Siri like Terry.
[24:07]I mean, I really hear since the 90s, you know, and like Oprah's book club that was just picked two years ago.
[24:13]And now there's such a big boom.
[24:15]She's been writing for a very, very long time.
[24:18]And she's been an incredible writer from the beginning.
[24:21]You know, I'm so glad that Oprah selected her and gave her her proper like accolades.
[24:26]But now she's in the quote unquote mainstream.
[24:29]I've been reading her forever.
[24:31]You know, and like Silver Sparrow, it's being re like published and not re released.
[24:36]But that book is can stand right next to American marriage.
[24:40]And there is no separation.
[24:41]But now she's been discovered, you know, years later.
[24:43]And I think yeah, of course, things take time.
[24:46]I feel like the same thing.
[24:47]I have readters that I've been following for 20 years.
[24:49]Yeah.
[24:50]I'm like, oh my gosh, how amazing.
[24:51]Now, like, but I was in college or something.
[24:54]Like this is what got me through.
[24:55]like a weekend in college that I remember like it was yesterday.
[24:58]And now finally, now look at this.
[25:00]Yeah.
[25:01]And this is now that, you know, sometimes it's just it's about time.
[25:03]But you know, I think it is more challenging as a black writer to get that like that boost, you know.
[25:08]And I've seen I've seen the difference.
[25:10]Like it makes when I post something on Instagram.
[25:12]I see when people say I'm pre-ordering now, you know, and like that I love that.
[25:17]You know, and I don't get, you know, I'm not getting like a rosy check for every like heart or like thumbs up.
[25:23]I just want to know that I'm having my small impact on changing what the canon looks like.
[25:29]And making sure like, if there is any kind of ROI that's happening in this,
[25:34]it means that people are buying their books and they have the ability to be on bestseller list.
[25:39]And they can like, you know, continue to have a body of work where it's not just like one great debut novel.
[25:45]It is a body of work.
[25:47]There's series of books.
[25:48]There's, I can be a lifelong follower of their work.
[25:51]Right now I'm really excited about Brit Bennett's next book.
[25:54]I think I believe it's called the vanishing or vanishing.
[25:56]But her first book, The Mothers, we read it for the book club.
[25:59]You know, it was her first debut.
[26:01]And just like, I loved it.
[26:03]And we have so many great conversations.
[26:05]And now she's writing her second book.
[26:07]The same thing when the cold and the spend, we all read here comes the sun together.
[26:11]And then our second book, Patsy, we read it together.
[26:14]And I mean, now it's just like, it goes beyond just like, okay, this is your debut book.
[26:19]This is just like, how can we like be fans of yours forever?
[26:23]And I love that.
[26:24]And I love, I love reading, you know.
[26:27]I think some of the power of reading, and I know a lot of the people who contributed essays to this anthology feel the same way.
[26:33]I think there's two things that are really powerful.
[26:35]One is the ability to see yourself.
[26:37]Yes.
[26:38]Right 100%.
[26:39]Identify something that maybe you haven't articulated.
[26:41]And you see it in a book.
[26:42]And you're like, oh, I feel so understood.
[26:44]Yeah.
[26:45]And there's that like sort of humanizing, amazing element of being seen or being understood or helping you sort out your own things.
[26:53]Right.
[26:54]But then I also think it's really important to get other people's point to you.
[26:57]Oh, yeah.
[26:58]And that like, okay, maybe, you know, I wasn't in this country at this time.
[27:01]But that's such an interesting story.
[27:03]Yeah.
[27:04]Yeah.
[27:05]Right.
[27:06]Yeah.
[27:07]And I think now more than ever not to feel it.
[27:10]Not to be on the main sort of platform.
[27:12]But it's so important to understand other people's point of views.
[27:14]And remember that like, ultimately we all are like moms like, or women or men or going through the same things every day.
[27:23]And we may look different.
[27:24]And we have different cultures.
[27:25]But like some of those fundamental human thoughts and feelings.
[27:28]It's all the same.
[27:29]Yeah.
[27:30]It really is.
[27:31]And so why keep all these like borders like, I don't know.
[27:33]Yeah.
[27:34]No, it's really complicated because I think there are less spaces where we can come together.
[27:39]And have like, on a dialogue about things, but books allow us to kind of go through the perspective of another person.
[27:46]And just like really taking their insight.
[27:48]And just like be with ourselves on what I do that.
[27:51]How do I feel about that?
[27:53]You know, and make a decision without, you know, feeling threatened or judged by another person.
[27:58]So I think a lot of times people are afraid of judgment.
[28:01]They're afraid of being wrong.
[28:03]And that has actually been one thing that's helped me excel.
[28:07]I've gone to spaces where I'm just like, I don't know what I'm doing.
[28:11]And I'm really okay with admitting that.
[28:13]I'm okay with like being wrong.
[28:15]I'm okay with asking questions.
[28:16]I'm okay with quote, unquote, looking stupid.
[28:19]Because I'm just like, well, how else will I learn, you know.
[28:22]And when people ask me questions about like how you did this.
[28:25]I'm just like, I don't know.
[28:26]I just like really experimented.
[28:28]And I also give credit to being in a space where I did work up work in like startup spaces.
[28:32]And that's all about like iterating and pivoting.
[28:35]And I watch a lot of men excel.
[28:38]And clearly not know what they're doing, you know.
[28:41]And so I'm just like, that is what everyone is doing every day.
[28:44]We're just trying our best.
[28:45]And if you can kind of like work through the failures of whatever you're doing,
[28:49]you will it will eventually lead to a success.
[28:52]And I think also being patient with yourself is so vital because had I had kind of given up after a year
[28:59]where I consistently had again, like under 100 followers for the first year.
[29:04]Like I remember being at Christmas 20 year.
[29:06]I was with my little brother.
[29:07]And I was like really getting out because something had I don't know.
[29:10]Who like retweeted me something happened.
[29:12]And I started getting all these followers and like the whole day of Christmas.
[29:15]I was like, oh my gosh, you know.
[29:16]I was like, I was so excited.
[29:17]And my brothers were like, what are you doing?
[29:20]Like, what is this world?
[29:21]And my mom still doesn't know what she's super supportive.
[29:24]But she did my mom was a registered nurse.
[29:26]She just is like, you have this is your job.
[29:28]Now she really has no full understanding, but she just is supportive and loving.
[29:32]I think every time she comes to the festival, she gets a little bit more this year.
[29:36]She became like a little bit of a vet producer.
[29:38]She was in the back.
[29:39]You know, she was like hanging out with talent.
[29:41]She stayed with Stacy and Chin like the whole time.
[29:44]It was hilarious.
[29:45]But she sees it and she's like, okay.
[29:47]Like this is your work.
[29:48]This is like your growing community.
[29:50]She sees it and she starts to understand.
[29:52]But you need time.
[29:53]Like things in time to develop organically and have to be patient with yourself.
[29:57]And it's not about it.
[30:00]It just happened instantly.
[30:01]I also think, I mean, just because, again,
[30:03]he's like still on things that were in my mind
[30:05]to put my own, like, no, because in the beginning,
[30:07]I had like 20 people down there in the podcast,
[30:09]and I'm like, I don't know.
[30:10]Well, I'm just gonna try something new,
[30:11]or I should be going.
[30:12]And I think part of it, though, is passion.
[30:14]Like, you and I both, like, we feel so passionately
[30:16]about what we're doing and helping spread the word
[30:19]about books that we care about, our stories that we care about
[30:21]and whatever.
[30:22]And sometimes that's enough, right?
[30:24]Like, why would I stop?
[30:26]Like, even if nobody listened tomorrow,
[30:28]I'm still having a blast.
[30:29]That's so funny, because, yeah, that's how I feel, too.
[30:31]Like, I do, honestly, feel that way.
[30:33]Like, there was like all this hoopla about, oh my God,
[30:36]you're gonna be like, the next Oprah,
[30:38]and this and that, and I can make, no, no, no.
[30:40]Oprah is Oprah, you know?
[30:42]And like, I love and are completely obsessed with her.
[30:45]And I respect her, and I feel she has set the precedent
[30:48]for so many things.
[30:49]But I just really like wanted to make new friends
[30:53]in read books, and like, and that was it.
[30:56]And now it's grownness to something else.
[30:58]And now I do, what has changed?
[31:01]Like, do you feel like that immense responsibility?
[31:03]I do feel like there is, when things happen,
[31:07]that are really just like irresponsible.
[31:11]I do feel like I have a platform and a space to speak out
[31:13]and help others.
[31:15]I do feel like I have, I'm gaining more power.
[31:17]I'm feeling more confident in myself to challenge things.
[31:20]And so it's not simply about just, okay,
[31:22]I'm making friends and reading books.
[31:23]Like, I'm really trying to make an impact that is lasting.
[31:26]And I want, I see so much of the work that I'm doing.
[31:28]as part of my own individual legacy.
[31:31]So writing the book was so crucial for me
[31:33]because that shit, they shifted so many things.
[31:36]It was like, okay, this is not only on a digital space,
[31:39]this like isn't a book.
[31:40]I have a book, like, you didn't like find this book.
[31:43]10 years from now, 100 years from now,
[31:45]someone's gonna pick it up and read it
[31:47]and be moved by it and feel the way I felt when I was 19.
[31:51]And I read Tony Morrison, you know?
[31:53]So like, it was really crucial for me
[31:55]to create something like offline.
[31:57]That was a beautiful, like, piece of art, you know?
[32:02]Let me read just a couple of quotes,
[32:03]because I know we're like,
[32:04]I'm a set of time here and I could talk to you all day.
[32:06]And you are like such a role model for me by the way.
[32:08]Oh my gosh.
[32:09]If I could grow this, my like little platform
[32:11]until we create it.
[32:13]Anyway, so you're like a total role model, just FYI.
[32:15]Anyway, so I'm just gonna read quickly a couple of quotes.
[32:17]And your introduction, you're reading highlights
[32:19]the intersection of narrative and self image
[32:22]to create compelling explorations of identity.
[32:24]Reading allows us to witness ourselves.
[32:26]Being a reader is an incredible gift,
[32:28]providing me with a lens to interpret the world.
[32:30]Most important, it has invigorated my imagination
[32:32]and allowed me to choose which narratives I want to center
[32:34]and hold close.
[32:35]That was amazing.
[32:36]I was like, star when I read it.
[32:38]You also said, so this was a quote from Daniel Clayton,
[32:43]is talking about reading coffee.
[32:44]You'll make you black by April Sinclair.
[32:45]And she said, not much happens in the book,
[32:47]but when I read it, everything happened for me.
[32:49]It was the right book at the right time,
[32:51]which is a former librarian.
[32:52]I can tell you is the most important thing
[32:54]in the entire world, which I completely,
[32:57]I'm sure you agree with you,
[32:58]the right book at the right time.
[32:59]It was like life-shading.
[33:00]One more quote, Karla Bruce Eddings talks about being shy.
[33:05]She says she preferred to quote observed to twirl around
[33:07]in the fascinating constellation of my own mind
[33:10]where I could entertain myself by creating stories
[33:12]about the people around me.
[33:13]She's just like a beautiful way to take being shy.
[33:16]And then one last quote from Jacqueline Woodson,
[33:18]she said, I knew as soon as I started
[33:20]that writing was the thing that brought me
[33:22]to great joy.
[33:23]So just to close, do you think reading is bringing,
[33:26]writing is bringing the greatest joy,
[33:27]or is it this connection that writing can bring to the world?
[33:31]Oh, I love it.
[33:32]It's all of it.
[33:32]It's the writing, it's the reading, it's being in close proximity
[33:38]to the readers themselves and built in community.
[33:41]I think writing for me right now is it's the greatest joy,
[33:45]but also the greatest challenge, right?
[33:47]Because I'm reading all these incredible books
[33:49]all of the time.
[33:51]And I want my writing to be as worthy and as excellent
[33:56]as Jacqueline Woodson, as Sarah Broome,
[33:59]as Veronica Chambers, people that I admire.
[34:03]And I really want my, I want my work to be like long-lasting.
[34:07]So I've just been taking a lot of time to study
[34:10]and to revise and edit and change things.
[34:14]And it's right, it's right in this difficult, right?
[34:17]Book is really hard.
[34:19]You know, it's one thing to edit this and curate,
[34:22]which I feel like I'm learning and I've mastered
[34:24]that sort of certain degree.
[34:25]But writing a book, us like alone,
[34:28]is a whole other experience.
[34:30]So it's been taking me to another part of my mind
[34:33]and just expanding what I can do as a creative artist.
[34:36]And I'm up to the challenge,
[34:38]but I know it's gonna take me a long time.
[34:41]And that's okay.
[34:44]But it's gonna be, I'm gonna be a new mom soon.
[34:47]So I'm excited to be like,
[34:48]I can like share this with my son.
[34:50]And again, it's another part of like my legacy
[34:53]that it'll be, it'll be there when I'm gone.
[34:55]And hopefully, while our black girl will still be there
[34:59]when I'm gone, like I'm really working hard
[35:00]to create like a cultural institution
[35:02]that deserves as like a, almost a digital archive
[35:06]of all these amazing new contemporary writers,
[35:08]et cetera, coming out because it's about the past,
[35:10]but it's also looking about the looking towards the future
[35:14]and how we can continue to have
[35:15]intergenerational conversations.
[35:17]So yeah, it's like, it's all those things.
[35:20]Okay, parting advice to aspiring authors.
[35:22]Oh, oh my goodness.
[35:24]Oh, parting advice to inspiring authors,
[35:27]I would say to innovate and take risks
[35:30]with your writing, really play with form and structure.
[35:33]Don't be afraid to just be yourself on the page,
[35:37]whatever that looks like,
[35:39]like the books that I'm trying to always really play
[35:42]with dialogue and are like really forward thinking
[35:46]and with how they wanna approach their work.
[35:49]Just be yourself and, you know,
[35:51]and stand out as much as possible.
[35:53]And the writers that, some of the writers that we love
[35:56]and really support today, like Audrey Lorde,
[35:59]and they weren't necessarily so popular during their,
[36:03]their time period.
[36:03]So think about that.
[36:04]Like think less about popularity
[36:06]and more about craft and quality
[36:08]and you want the quality of your work to be outstanding.
[36:11]I love that.
[36:12]Thank you so much.
[36:13]Thank you, Gloria, for all this.
[36:14]Oh my gosh. Thank you.
[36:16]Bye.
[36:18]You've been listening to Momstone Have Time to Read Books
[36:20]with Zibi Owens.
[36:21]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[36:23]at zibiowens.com to get more updates about episodes like these
[36:27]and also lots of live events.
[36:29]Thanks to Lauren Passell and her innovative PR company,
[36:32]Tink, for sponsoring today's episode,
[36:34]please check them out at tinkmedia.com.
[36:36]You can follow me on Instagram at momstonehavetimetoreadbooks.
[36:40]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound
[36:43]for the sound editing.
[36:44]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[36:46]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[36:49]Thanks for listening.
[36:50]You can always email me at zibiatzibiowens.com.