Phyllis Grant, EVERYTHING IS UNDER CONTROL
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:11]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast.
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[0:29]Today's episode has been sponsored by Minnie Rose, which is an amazing sweater
[0:35]cashmere company which I am just obsessed with. It's named after Lisa Goldberg's grandmothers
[0:40]whose names were Minnie and Rose, the knitwear company Minnie Rose specializes in cashmere
[0:45]of all styles and colors. You can shop at MinnieRose.com and get 10% off with code Zivi10,
[0:52]capital Z-I-B-B-Y-10. You can see some of the sweaters I've been wearing lately on my Instagram
[0:59]lives and and try to shop those. They're so lightweight and comfortable and they fit great and
[1:04]I'm a huge fan. I'm excited to talk to Phyllis Grant who is an IACP finalist for personal essays
[1:10]and memoir writing and a three-time saver food blog award finalist for her blog Dash and Bella.
[1:17]Her latest book is Everything is Under Control, a memoir with recipes. She has cooked in
[1:22]world-renowned restaurants including Nobu, Michaels, and Boulay. Her essays and recipes have
[1:26]been published in a dozen anthologies and cookbooks including Best Food Writing in both 2015 and 2016.
[1:33]Her work has been featured in Esquire, Oh the Oprah Magazine at the New York Times,
[1:38]Real Simple, Siver, Huff Post Times, San Francisco Chronicle, Food 52 and Salon. She currently lives
[1:43]in Berkeley, California with her husband and two children. Welcome Phyllis. Thanks so much for
[1:48]coming on Moms. Don't have time to read books. Thanks for having me Zivi. I really appreciate it.
[1:53]It's my pleasure. As I told you when we did our Instagram live chat, I really enjoyed your book.
[1:59]I mean it is so beautifully written and it's so unique in the structure to it as well how it's
[2:05]short chapters and recipes at the end and I don't know. It was just fantastic especially for now.
[2:10]I have to say so thanks. It seems to be people are saying it's sort of an in one sitting read
[2:17]sometimes which is great and I think partly because it's so spare people can like gobble it up and
[2:22]not feel like they have to work hard. I think my goal in pairing it down was to make it sort of
[2:29]flow almost cinematically so that you're sort of flashing up a building and then you're in a dance
[2:36]studio and then you're in a kitchen you know so that that flow seems like there's some momentum
[2:41]and rhythm that makes it readable especially right now when we're also distracted. Totally.
[2:47]Could you explain in general the plot of the book and then what made you decide to write it?
[2:53]And I know it's a memoir so it's not exactly a plot but you know. Yeah well it is my life up until
[2:59]about five years ago is what it is. My life empty as of two weeks ago and it is sort of the
[3:06]appetites and the desires and the career passions and failures and it's just sort of tracing the
[3:15]things that I have loved and and there you have all been very physical things starting with dance
[3:20]and then being on your feet in the kitchen and then writing for me is actually very physical just
[3:25]in terms of how I write so they're all connected they're all of a piece they're all part of me
[3:30]but it's just this book sort of shows how I I followed these different well appetites throughout
[3:35]my life or whether it's food or writing or yoga or dancer or parenting being a birth doula you know
[3:41]just really just diving in deep to some of these things. I don't seem to know how to do things
[3:47]like in a casual way and that's sometimes a good thing and sometimes I think a little dangerous
[3:54]because I go too deep into it and I get overwhelmed so but that the book is essentially it lands
[4:01]on 17 recipes at the end and these recipes are not directly referred to in the book but they're
[4:07]alluded to that it's just they're templates for comfort cooking which is what I've been doing
[4:12]since I had kids 17 years ago so these aren't the recipes I learned cooking in restaurants in
[4:16]my 20s these are the the this is the food I've cooked for my family for the past 17 years.
[4:22]I mean that's a lot more helpful. I feel like the amount of people who are going to replicate
[4:26]a restaurant quality recipe is far less than the home cooks among us who could actually accomplish
[4:31]these which is a great topic. That's good that really was my goal towards the end when I was
[4:36]deciding which ones to put in because I've been collecting hundreds of recipes for years that I've
[4:42]been developing and it broke my heart a little bit to narrow it down to 17 but now it feels
[4:46]like such a relief because there are each one can have a purpose for either for teaching someone
[4:53]something new like making tart go or a template for salad dressing start with what's in this book
[4:58]and then just look around and see what you have as long as the balance is about the same
[5:03]you don't need lemon you can you share your wine vinegar you don't need olive oil you use coconut oil
[5:07]I mean so what I'm hoping is this gives people a little more confidence to play in the kitchen
[5:13]and not be so rigid and and not be so locked into recipes because you don't learn until you step
[5:18]away from the recipes at least I did. That's true I want to try the cottage cheese pancakes
[5:24]but I don't have any cottage cheese right now. But you know what you know what that's a great
[5:28]example because if you don't have cottage cheese you can use yogurt you can use ricotta you can use
[5:35]sort of any creamy thing that you can throw in the blender with the eggs and a little flour
[5:39]and you have a pancake and they're packed with protein especially with a lot of kids
[5:43]sort of nice to start the day with the protein so so play I will make it I don't know how to do
[5:49]we do have so we have some yogurt that's a little too thick that nobody actually likes to eat
[5:53]but I think if I hide it in this recipe then I won't be wasting it yeah you can add a little
[5:59]orange juice to the dressing you can add lemons as you can you know just whatever sort of
[6:03]your wanting whatever you have yeah basically that's how we are right now anyway but I feel like
[6:08]you're including these recipes was more like a friend at the end of a long phone conversation
[6:13]being like oh and by the way you should try making this as opposed to picking up a book that's
[6:17]like a cookbook right I mean these are recipes and they are used your friendly but it's not about
[6:22]the recipes the recipes are just another gift oh I like that I like that a lot because that's
[6:28]often how I end a conversation anyway it's like okay I'll send you those five things we talked about
[6:32]the link to that recipe and then here's the thing I'm playing with and here's a photo and
[6:36]that is a lovely way of looking at it thank you that's cool you're not going to be cool
[6:41]I loved also in this book how you wrote about being with the child and walking through I just want
[6:47]to read this scene when you're walking around Manhattan if you don't mind just one paragraph and
[6:51]I walked through Manhattan with a warm six-month-old baby strapped to my chest I walked to stay awake
[6:56]I walk because that's what nannies do playing mom comes naturally to me but parenting someone
[7:01]else's child is the loneliest of boredom's I am 22 and then you talk about what it's like to
[7:06]sort of be a nanny of a baby and this is before you have your own children what was that experience
[7:11]like and did you find it as boring to be a parent or it was it worse is a nanny that's such a good
[7:18]question I definitely worse I was going to say worse is a nanny but the thing about being a nanny
[7:25]is you hand the baby back at the end of the day worse with your own kids you might be bored out of
[7:31]your mind but there's more at stake you love the child more you know deeply and it's a
[7:36]of the lifetime commitment so it's easier to stick around I would say I mean I guess nanny work
[7:41]truly it made me not just bored but just lonely yeah sad like deep like pit in my stomach sad
[7:48]which is such a strange reaction I mean I was taking care of someone's child but it just it didn't
[7:53]feel like well I didn't feel like what I didn't feel inspiring yet and I suppose I didn't find
[7:58]that inspiration until I had my own kids and it took me a few years even with my own kids I didn't
[8:02]love my kids at first and I write about that I mean my babies I really the attachment came very
[8:08]slowly for me and that's a really devastating feeling and it's sort of similar I guess to what I
[8:13]felt as a nanny that feeling of like disconnect I suppose so thank goodness for the cooking with my
[8:19]kids because I think when I finally got them into the kitchen I started to connect with them more
[8:23]than I did when we played shoot say shoots and ladders with that game there's certain games I
[8:31]just can't even look at the box you know I think there's like you know there's so much pressure
[8:38]for moms to enjoy the baby years and the early times and it's not always enjoyable for everybody
[8:45]I mean that's a lot of people's least favorite part about having kids and yet I think people feel
[8:49]way too guilty ever admitting that right I think now like my older kids aren't as old as yours
[8:54]they're almost 13 but now I have friends who are like oh yeah I'm much more of like a five and up type
[9:00]of mom and it's like laughed at and okay but when you're in it it is not really okay to say that
[9:05]oh not at all but I think that's true we all have our time period that where we feel more connected
[9:11]to the kids and more like we're more helpful and we're more relaxed that's sort of how I feel
[9:16]now with my son who's 12 it just feels there's just this great banter and you know we can
[9:22]read the same things and watch the same things and there's still this innocence to him and
[9:26]you know whereas my 17 year old daughter it's different as it should be she wants to be with her
[9:31]friends and that's just killing me right now luckily they have their phones I've never I never
[9:35]thought I would say that luckily my kids have phones but they're seeing their friend's faces
[9:40]and they're talking and they're laughing. My daughter for the first time yesterday actually
[9:45]was crying at how much she misses everybody so like she's been such a trooper but it is so hard
[9:49]and she's so social I think for some kids you know half my kids are fine staying home the other
[9:54]half would much prefer to be out with people so I don't know. It is the waves that we're feeling
[9:58]at the end of the day.
[10:00]The kids, they, I think they are more resilient.
[10:02]They are stronger than we are.
[10:03]They're most of them are less fragile from now.
[10:06]They just adjust to the new normal.
[10:07]Yes.
[10:08]And I thank goodness they're so resilient.
[10:11]But I feel like I'm surrounded by grownups
[10:12]who are not really adjusting at all.
[10:15]Yeah.
[10:15]Yeah.
[10:17]During the cocktail zoom hour, it's just like there's always
[10:21]someone falling apart.
[10:24]You also wrote about 9.11 in this book.
[10:27]And you did it in such a way that you'd never actually
[10:31]say you're writing about 9.11.
[10:32]It's like one of the ways that you're unless I missed it.
[10:35]But it's more, like you don't reference the date.
[10:38]I mean, you make it clear.
[10:39]So you just say, and it comes after a scene
[10:43]where you're eating and you're married.
[10:45]And then all of a sudden, it's, we spend the morning
[10:47]looking downtown.
[10:48]There are no cars.
[10:49]They come later driving too fast, speeding up town,
[10:52]filled with people in suits, cover and ash.
[10:55]So all of a sudden, you have to pick up
[10:56]like, OK, wait, where is she now?
[10:58]What's going on?
[11:00]And then all of a sudden, you realize.
[11:01]And then you're immersed in another moment with you.
[11:03]And I think that like, how did you,
[11:05]this is the trick you keep using.
[11:06]And maybe this is the cinematic vision
[11:08]that you were referring to earlier.
[11:10]But like, how do you do it without confusing the reader?
[11:13]Because it wasn't really confusing.
[11:15]It was, I don't know, like how did you do that?
[11:18]Well, I think partly because, and I can't remember
[11:20]if we talked about this on the previous,
[11:22]I don't know, Instagram live, but this book
[11:24]was a really long memoir at one point a few years ago.
[11:28]So a lot more of those details were in there originally,
[11:32]like probably saying 9, 11 and really
[11:34]giving the specifics and the date and the World Trade Center.
[11:37]And although I think I do mention that at one point,
[11:38]but you're right, it's like not for quite a few paragraphs.
[11:42]Do I even say the South Tower starts to fall from the sky?
[11:45]So I think by pairing it down so carefully for so many years,
[11:48]I was able to leave behind just enough.
[11:51]I mean, that was my goal.
[11:52]And sometimes, like for example, the page
[11:54]before when we get married, and then we eat 12 cakes.
[11:57]I mean, that's really all you need to know about that day,
[12:00]because that's all I remember.
[12:02]And you know what, we didn't have a wedding photographer,
[12:04]because I just, I don't know why.
[12:06]I was just like, we didn't even spend money on that.
[12:08]This is before I started to take my own pictures.
[12:10]It just wasn't important to me.
[12:11]But we have one photo, someone took, of the 12 cakes.
[12:15]That's it.
[12:16]But for me, that's the wedding.
[12:19]So that, again, with the pairing down,
[12:21]it wasn't necessarily, it wasn't
[12:23]that I wore my mom's wedding dress,
[12:25]or that I had my parents on either side of me walking down
[12:28]the aisle, although those are beautiful moving details
[12:30]for me.
[12:31]I guess when I was examining that particular day in my life,
[12:36]it was the cakes that just rose to the surface
[12:38]of most important.
[12:39]The essence, and I've used that word a lot.
[12:41]I've been talking about this book a lot this week.
[12:43]Various podcasts and so on.
[12:45]And the word essence keeps coming up.
[12:47]That's what I was hoping to do.
[12:49]is find the essence of that day, as opposed to all the details.
[12:54]It's almost like you're making a reduction of a sauce.
[12:57]It's like, this is what's, have you used that a lot?
[12:59]We've got to come up.
[13:00]I have to go inside the table.
[13:02]I have a few people have said that.
[13:04]Oh, that's exactly right.
[13:05]And another friend of mine had a very similar analogy,
[13:08]which is, do you know about dry- farmed, early girl tomatoes?
[13:12]No.
[13:12]They're these tomatoes.
[13:13]They're so beautiful in California and in the summer.
[13:16]They're all over the place of the farmer's markets.
[13:18]And what they do is they deprive the tomatoes of water.
[13:22]So they're almost like reduced tomatoes.
[13:26]They're small in their deep red.
[13:28]And they almost taste like tomato sauce reduction
[13:32]because they've been deprived.
[13:34]And they have to suck nutrients out of the soil
[13:36]because they don't have water.
[13:38]So my friend Ann actually, she read my book
[13:41]and she texted me right away and she was like,
[13:42]your book is like a dry-farmed, early girl tomato.
[13:45]And I thought it was such a lovely thing to say.
[13:48]And it's very much like the reduction of life, the essence.
[13:52]And, you know, I didn't set out to do that originally.
[13:55]But the book that I wrote many years ago wasn't good.
[13:58]It wasn't right.
[13:59]It was, I keep using the word bloated.
[14:02]It was just too much.
[14:04]So I don't know.
[14:05]Sometimes I wonder if I went too far in the other direction.
[14:08]But once I started reducing it down, I couldn't stop.
[14:11]I guess it's what I'd say.
[14:12]So it was all right.
[14:13]Although it was hard to like, there is a point,
[14:16]there was a point where my agent said, okay, stop.
[14:19]Yeah, leave us something.
[14:21]Like, right, exactly.
[14:22]I could have rewritten it.
[14:23]Yeah, it's not a right.
[14:24]It's not a right.
[14:25]It's not a right.
[14:26]It's not a right.
[14:28]I'll just read one more.
[14:29]And this is like your full commentary on a move,
[14:31]which I would take me like 20,000 words to describe.
[14:36]I think you just write, we moved to Berkeley
[14:38]in the condo above my grandmother, Phyllis.
[14:40]We worry a lot about how noisy we are.
[14:41]The barking dog are toddler's tantrums,
[14:43]our fights, my occasional throwing of a plate
[14:46]or a book or a clog, every single episode of six feet under.
[14:49]And then that's it.
[14:50]And then you move on.
[14:51]It's so great.
[14:52]No, it's just like so perfect.
[14:54]It's almost like little poems, like not to keep analyzing
[14:57]or not that it matters this much.
[15:00]But to keep talking about the form,
[15:02]but it is what I think is so unique about the way
[15:04]in which you tell your story.
[15:06]And I really respect when people try to do it
[15:08]in a different way,
[15:09]because I read so many books, so.
[15:10]I don't know.
[15:11]Thank you.
[15:12]Well, it's funny when I hear you say the clog, the book.
[15:16]I can see the dend in the wall from the book in the bedroom.
[15:20]And I remember the clog flying.
[15:22]These are things they are dramatic,
[15:24]but they're also just what happens every day.
[15:27]Something like that when we have little kids in marriage
[15:30]is hard and everyone's sleep deprived
[15:33]and a plate will fly across the room every now and then.
[15:37]You're not coming to my house.
[15:40]I'll tell you that much.
[15:42]But I keep my cabinets closed.
[15:45]I haven't thrown a plate in a decade, so.
[15:47]OK, all right, those days are over.
[15:49]Maybe I'm OK, then.
[15:54]Oh, my gosh.
[15:55]So when you were writing this, it sounds like the process
[15:58]was very involved, given that it was essentially
[16:00]a completely different book to start.
[16:02]So how long did it take from when it was what you called
[16:05]bloated, which I'm sure was also just like an awesome book?
[16:07]To now, it's like the reduction version 2.0 of this book.
[16:11]You know, I think it took about three years.
[16:16]But I wasn't working on it a lot.
[16:18]My husband is a writer, director, actor.
[16:22]And he had a film called Captain Fantastic
[16:24]during Vigo Mortensen that he wrote and directed.
[16:26]And toured with that for a few years.
[16:29]And it was really all encompassing.
[16:31]And I didn't have a lot of time, because I was home low
[16:33]kids, and my sort of meditation or my peaceful 10 minutes,
[16:38]if I had them, would be with this book.
[16:40]So I would spend sometimes 10 minutes,
[16:41]sometimes five minutes.
[16:43]Sometimes I would just sort of grab one sentence
[16:45]and just sort of rework it in a day.
[16:48]So that's partly why it took so long, but I loved it.
[16:52]It didn't feel like a burden.
[16:54]It just felt like every time I got to sit with the book
[16:56]and move things around, it got better and stronger.
[16:59]And I also worked with a freelance editor, my friend,
[17:01]Kenzie Wilber.
[17:02]She was my editor at Food52.
[17:04]So she helped me every few months, I would send it to her.
[17:07]And she would go through and give me some comments.
[17:09]And we both had the same desire to get it,
[17:12]to really figure out what would be cut out.
[17:14]And there was a lot to cut out.
[17:15]As we talked about last time, you were saying
[17:17]we'd do pull some of those things back.
[17:18]And look at some of those fragments,
[17:21]those cutting room floor fragments might
[17:23]be worth playing with now.
[17:24]Totally.
[17:25]Yeah, and another couple books out of them.
[17:27]Yeah, exactly.
[17:28]Although I don't know.
[17:29]In some ways, I feel like maybe I took out the right stuff.
[17:32]You know, I don't know.
[17:33]Would you want to write another book on a different topic now?
[17:36]Or are you kind of over the whole bookwriting thing?
[17:38]Or are you just getting started?
[17:40]Yeah.
[17:40]Or how do you feel about it?
[17:41]Well, I have been collecting recipes as I mentioned.
[17:44]So I have Morgan on a cookbook for sure, more comfort food,
[17:48]a lot of salads, a lot of tarts.
[17:50]And I also, I'd like to write about Perry Menopause,
[17:53]actually, and I've been some gathering, some information
[17:57]from other friends going through it.
[17:58]And I think that's going to be my next either essay
[18:01]or book like this.
[18:03]It's certainly there's a lot of food woven
[18:06]throughout that experience as well for people,
[18:08]as hormone shift, and a lot of emotion,
[18:11]and a lot of similar stuff to this book, actually.
[18:12]So I feel like that's the next phase in my writing.
[18:15]My kids are old enough now that I don't
[18:18]want to write about them.
[18:19]So that's difficult in some ways,
[18:21]because something will happen.
[18:22]And they'll be great dialogue and a great exchange.
[18:24]It's something really powerful that I want to tell the story
[18:27]of involving my kids.
[18:29]And sometimes I'll take notes on that and set it aside,
[18:32]but most of the time I just let it go.
[18:34]And that's hard.
[18:34]But I also feel like I have my kids in this book
[18:37]when they're young, but it just didn't
[18:39]feel right to write about them as teenagers.
[18:42]I can write about my little toddler and my arms
[18:44]that feels appropriate, because it's still my story.
[18:47]I feel like if I were writing about my 12 and 17-year-olds now,
[18:50]it's too much of their time and their stories.
[18:53]They're not mine to touch in some ways.
[18:55]That's what I've been realizing, which is hard,
[18:58]because I want to write about what I'm experiencing.
[19:01]I mean, maybe at some point I will.
[19:02]Maybe it's just time.
[19:04]Maybe in a few years or in a decade, I'll be able to.
[19:07]I would keep writing them down, because otherwise you'll
[19:09]forget, because I forget everything unless I write it down.
[19:12]And then maybe one day you'll want to write a fabulous novel,
[19:16]and this will be a character.
[19:17]And you'll have all this background stuff
[19:19]or wish you'd written it.
[19:20]Or maybe you'll just want to look back on it
[19:22]and remember your kids.
[19:24]Well, one other thing in terms of just the structure of this book
[19:28]is that I pulled a lot of stuff from emails
[19:30]that I had written to friends.
[19:31]So partly how I got through some of the harder stuff
[19:33]is by writing about it to my friends
[19:35]and having a back and forth.
[19:36]And a lot of that stuff right now.
[19:38]That's where it's, when I'm writing about my kids,
[19:40]now it's in those emails.
[19:41]So I'm just realizing they are in a place
[19:43]where I can capture them, because unless all emails disappear,
[19:46]every know that I have that fear of like, oh, my God.
[19:48]But I wake up in that cloud.
[19:49]It's just totally.
[19:51]It's going to be gone.
[19:52]I'm like, I should print everything.
[19:53]I should just spend a day printing and printing my heart out.
[19:57]Because otherwise you put it on a tiny little thing.
[19:59]And I'm.
[20:00]like, what are these? And then I throw them at it's like, my entire college is like,
[20:03]I throw out without even realizing it. So, yeah, so true. But emails, I mean, if you keep them,
[20:09]that is just the, that's our diary some ways now. And so I, the good room, thank you for that
[20:17]sort of reminder to write these things down and just sort of pull them together and keep them
[20:21]for who knows what. And that's why because, you know, the stories with my teenagers are just as
[20:26]important as the stories of my toddlers. But it is complicated though when it's, when you step
[20:31]outside yourself and into someone else's story. And that was the hardest stuff to write
[20:34]in my book actually. It's stuff about my mom when she lost to baby at 24 weeks.
[20:39]That was the last thing I wrote and I actually ended up rewriting it. She gave me,
[20:43]she actually told me it was much harder than what I'd written on the page and much more devastating,
[20:46]much more blood and much more, I was, so she, I interviewed her about it, about right,
[20:51]this was right before the book locked and I was able to rewrite that paragraph about her and it
[20:55]felt more accurate. And it felt, yeah, really important to her that it was obviously more accurate.
[21:01]But that's the hardest stuff. Like, well, I was writing about my grandma Phyllis too because I
[21:05]don't know exactly what she was feeling at 10 when she was cooking for her mom when her dad just
[21:10]died. So yeah. Well, do you have any advice for aspiring authors? Well, just sort of, sort of
[21:17]what I was saying about emails, like I've had various friends tell me over the years to just keep
[21:21]your fingers moving. So whether you're tweeting or emailing or a handwriting letter to a friend,
[21:28]that's all, that's all writing. It's all, it's all a practice, it's a meditation. So just keep
[21:33]your fingers moving, I would say. And don't be afraid to just write some really bad stuff because
[21:39]I have written some really bad stuff and just get it on the paper. And then, and then great writing
[21:46]exercises to do what I did with this book is to take something that's way over written and try to
[21:50]pair it down to a few senses. Woo. It's a really fun game, too. If you're into writing games,
[21:57]we're much lower. Anyone with some extra time, line up the writing game, forget shoots and letters,
[22:03]it's all about writing games now. Actually, you know, it would be a great exercise is to open
[22:10]any book and grab a paragraph, whether it's a novel or a memoir, and then try to reduce it down
[22:16]to one sentence, rewriting it to one sentence. I can be really fun too. You should post that.
[22:22]You should post like a challenge and then have people post their answers. I like that.
[22:26]Right, that would be fun. That would inspire people to write. Right, exactly. Or just post the
[22:31]paragraph and then, you know, then have people reduce it. And have people reduce it. Like,
[22:35]yeah, call it like, you know, the daily reduction or something. But right. Seriously, it's fun.
[22:41]If you couldn't make it in newsletter, like that would be fun to play.
[22:44]You are an ideas person. I know. I have a few friends just like you, or I sit down with them
[22:50]and by the time we're done with tea, they have like 10 assignments for me and things I need to
[22:54]spend so not an ideas. No, I actually find it so comforting because we all, I don't know what I am,
[23:00]but I'm not an ideas person. So thank you. No, I feel bad because I'm always like,
[23:05]here's what you should do. And I'm like, this is bad. I should, I mean, it doesn't mean it's a good
[23:09]idea. I have tons of bad ideas, but I do have a lot of ideas. Anyway, I love it. I love it.
[23:15]Well, it was really great chatting with you today. And I'm going to try the pancakes for
[23:18]breakfast tomorrow. I'm excited about it. So I'm moving this out of my office and into my kitchen.
[23:24]Oh, I like that. That's cool. Yeah. And thank you. Thanks for your book. Everything is under control.
[23:29]I hope you're right. Yeah, me too. Yeah, knock on wood. Come on.
[23:34]Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And this was really fun. It's so fun. Thank you so much.
[23:41]Bye, bye. See you later. Bye. Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[23:45]Moms don't have time to read books. If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram
[23:51]at zippyowens and at moms don't have time to read books and sign up for my mailing list at
[23:56]zippyowens.com so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to. Thanks a lot.
[24:01]Today's episode is sponsored by mini bros. Check it out at mini ros.com and get 10% off with code
[24:07]zippy 10, C-I-B-B-Y, 10, that goes shopping for some sweaters. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at
[24:13]texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[24:18]this fantastic intro and now trim music. Thanks for listening. You could always email me at zippyowens.com.