Lionel Shriver, THE MOTION OF THE BODY THROUGH SPACE
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[1:21]I had so much fun talking to Lionel Shriver about her latest book,
[1:25]The Motion of the Body Through Space.
[1:28]Lionel's novels, previous to that, include the New Republic, so much for that,
[1:32]the post-birthday world, and the international bestseller, we need to talk about Kevin.
[1:36]Her journalism has appeared in The Guardian, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal,
[1:39]and many other publications she currently lives in the United Kingdom.
[1:43]Welcome, Lionel. Thanks so much for coming on, mom.
[1:45]Don't have time to read books.
[1:47]Oh, it's nice to talk to you. Frankly, these days it's nice to talk to anybody.
[1:51]You don't take that wrong.
[1:54]It's fine.
[1:56]I know I feel like a lot of the people I'm interviewing are just like, it's nice to see another face,
[2:00]so that's it. I'll just be that extra face that probably have a hard time getting rid of them.
[2:09]I mean, that's fine with me. It gets, you know,
[2:13]that I can put my kids on their devices and go in another room and hide out, so it's fine.
[2:17]So your latest book, The Motion of the Body Through Space, I was just saying to you,
[2:22]it was like the perfect like passive aggressive, you know, husband, wife, commentary,
[2:27]just from the beginning, and it's so good.
[2:29]Can you tell listeners what it's about and also what inspired you to write it?
[2:33]Well, it's mostly about a couple who I'm afraid just as I am or starting to get older.
[2:40]She's 60, he's 64, and she's always been athletic, although in a very private regard.
[2:47]She exercises by herself, doesn't make a big deal out of it. It has to do with her relationship
[2:53]to herself and not other people. And her husband's always been pretty sedentary. One of those
[2:57]people who continues to look pretty damn good, considering that he does hardly ever climbs
[3:03]of a stair, and there are such people live with one of them.
[3:08]It's astonishing.
[3:11]But, you know, that involves the division of territory, and that's what marriage is always do.
[3:16]But because she has been vigorous all her life, her knees are shot. And it's increasingly difficult
[3:24]for her to do what she used to do. She's had to stop running. She still does calisthenics at home,
[3:29]you know, but her physical efforts have had to be quite constrained. And that's been hard
[3:35]on her sense of self. One of the things that the book is looking at is how invested we have become
[3:41]in our exercise routines for an understanding of who we are. And then along comes her husband
[3:49]who decides arbitrarily one day that he wants to run a marathon. And it doesn't go down
[3:54]down well. And at the same time, you know, we live in a culture that you can't give anybody
[3:58]hard time for wanting to run a marathon, right? It's just, it has this hallowed aura of virtue.
[4:07]And you're supposed to be supportive and encouraging and admiring and all my protagonists are
[4:14]not a has our time filling that role because she is resentful about what's happening to her body.
[4:22]And I'm not sure you say that she exactly misses running, but she certainly misses the ability to
[4:28]run. She doesn't regard it as a, you know, and especially a lofty activity. But it is, you know,
[4:35]when you get, when you're used to running all the time, it's a kind, it's a funny kind of dependency.
[4:41]So in the book escalates because once he's finished with his marathon, and she does take a little
[4:46]too much satisfaction and the fact that he's not very good at running. So he's his time on the
[4:53]marathon is absolutely appalling. It's over seven hours and a half. But nevertheless, he's got
[5:01]the bug and then he decides he wants to do a triathlon. And the triathlon is what's obviously
[5:08]based on the Iron Man thing. So there are lots of levels of triathlon, but of course he has
[5:13]sets of sites on the really extreme one. And I've invented my own, and I call it metal man,
[5:18]and that's spelled M E T T L E. And then he takes on a personal trainer whose half is age,
[5:27]incredibly sexy. You know, the stage is set for trouble and dodge. And I won't tell you
[5:33]any more than that. But, you know, it's an examination of what I call the cult of exercise in the way
[5:40]in which we seem to have elevated it into an almost spiritual pursuit. And how we use it as a
[5:47]vehicle to compete with each other and to achieve social status. And for older people, it's
[5:53]it's become something that we depend on to convince ourselves. As long as we exercise enough,
[6:00]then we're never going to look old. And we're never going to get sick. And then we don't put it to
[6:06]ourselves quite this ridiculously that we'll never die.
[6:09]Well, there's a lot. There's so much to discuss. First of all, I love your sense of humor. In fact,
[6:15]when the when the husband says he's ready to start running and she says like, well, you've never
[6:20]even run before. You haven't even run from here to the living room. He's like, well, why on earth
[6:24]would I ever run from here to the living room? And she's like, well, you haven't even run down the
[6:27]block. And he's like, well, you know, why would I run around? I mean, it's just so funny. Like,
[6:32]their dialogue. It's like you were it's just so perfect. It's so classic and beautiful.
[6:37]But one thing that I think is really interesting is as you were saying people getting older and not
[6:41]being able to work out as much. There's a lot of research. I feel like on athletes who are
[6:47]professional athletes who have to retire, who get injured at a young age and how devastating that
[6:51]for it. But they're so little on just the natural course of time. And what happens to people who,
[6:58]by the way, this could be far bigger of an impact than somebody who's trained professionally,
[7:03]but is only 25, right? I know that's devastating to have to put your career aside. But what about
[7:08]all the people who have depended on this? Like you're saying, emotionally, I mean, your main
[7:12]character doesn't even say she likes running that much. She's sort of like, nobody likes running.
[7:16]She tells her husband, like, I don't like it. I like having done it. I like how it feels. And
[7:21]so what about that people have to be having run? Exactly. That's what ever
[7:27]comes out of the list. Yeah. Like this is not fun. Are we having fun here? So what do you think
[7:33]about the people all that like the millions of people really who have depended on exercise because
[7:38]it's become such a thing in our culture and now have to put it aside because of their bodies
[7:44]all the time? Like, what about, what about that? What can we do about it? I don't know. What do you
[7:49]think? I think it's something that in a combination, the media, the medical establishment,
[7:54]and the fitness establishment, and there is one now, you know, the fitness industry,
[7:59]have all colluded to convey the impression that the more exercise you do, the better, that there's
[8:07]no such thing as doing too much of it and that there are the only limits to your body or in your
[8:13]mind. You know, you just need to overcome your limitations. And you know, once you start encountering
[8:19]those limitations, they're not something you overcome. And this whole idea that pain is simply
[8:26]something to get over or to get past is completely wrong-headed because often the pain is indicating
[8:32]you're doing something stupid. And I think it becomes emotionally disconcerting when something
[8:42]goes wrong with your body and you can't do what you used to do. And especially when what's
[8:47]gone wrong is partly as a consequence of having been so, you know, vigorous, having pushed
[8:54]yourself so much. It's like you're being punished for being good. And it feels unjust. And I just,
[9:01]I think we have linked exercise too much into a kind of moral order of the universe. And my
[9:10]my novel insofar as it's promoting a perspective is suggesting that maybe we notch it down
[9:17]proportionally into not a moral or spiritual matter, but a mechanical matter. That doesn't mean
[9:23]it's not important, right? But it just has to do with making your body function so you can do
[9:30]other things in it. Where I object to the way a lot of people seem to get caught up in exercise
[9:39]is that it becomes their whole raison d'etra, right? Their whole purpose in life. And I can't
[9:47]tell you how tedious these people become. Between ourselves, I was at a dinner party about a year
[9:54]ago with somebody who had discovered running, you know, running.
[10:00]is boring. It's boring enough to do and there's only one thing that's more boring than doing it
[10:06]and that's talking about it. And this person did nothing but insert running into every little
[10:16]moment of the conversation. So, you know, whatever story she was telling, he said, so he's just like,
[10:21]oh, you know, when I was running around Hyde Park or you know, when I was running the second
[10:26]circuit of Hyde Park or, you know, it was, it's a kind of over obvious boastfulness and it really
[10:33]backfire socially by the way. I think it's fucking sort of worn you all out there.
[10:40]Oh, for pity's sake. And I, you know, it introduced, this is person that I actually
[10:46]knew pretty well and it made me light her less uncomfortably because she had just sort of
[10:53]bought in. I mean, it's not as if getting into running is fresh. That would have been more
[10:59]fascinated if she'd taken up crochet. Well, I have to say that conversation may have made you
[11:07]like her less, but it's absolutely made me like you more. So, if there's a benefit to it. I mean,
[11:15]it's so funny because like you're saying the things that so many people think, but then that there's
[11:19]sort of a shame to admit about other people's passions. That's pretty funny. Well, you're never
[11:25]so, you're never supposed to give people a hard time about their wonderful writtenness regimes.
[11:29]And especially converts are prone to go on and on about it. And I think that is actually
[11:36]funnily enough one of the dividing lines between people who have been doing it for decades.
[11:40]And people who, for whom it is just this life-changing discovery. And for the most part, people who
[11:46]would do it for decades don't talk to them. Because when it's been folded each day is a kind of,
[11:51]you know, probably one of the least interesting parts of your day. It's a necessity ultimately
[11:58]makes you feel better. But then this is widely known that it has the benefits. And when you get a
[12:07]chance to talk to somebody else, especially these days, what are relief to be able to talk about
[12:12]something else? I think sometimes though, I mean, I am not a big runner, but a few times since this
[12:18]pandemic has happened, I've been relying more on running than I ever have. And I've been thinking
[12:24]about it almost like curiously holding it in my hand like this new object, right? Like, oh, look at that.
[12:31]If I actually know this logically, but look, when my body actually does this, look at all the
[12:35]benefits. So I find that sometimes talking about it is almost a way of like unpacking something that
[12:42]even though you know it emotionally when you do it yourself, you just have to like share, share the
[12:48]curiosity about it or the newness or I don't know something to it. But I don't know why you have
[12:55]I do have a ritual almost set conversation that content continues to change with my younger brother
[13:02]who's also something of fitness freak and is also getting just old enough. I mean, he's about to
[13:09]turn 60 that he is starting to experience constraints, you know, things are going wrong. And in his case,
[13:17]I'm absolutely certain it's because of having been why I hesitate to say fanatical, but certainly
[13:23]dedicated. And you know, something's going wrong with his shoulder. He's having nerve damage. He
[13:28]does a lot of weight. I haven't done that much weight, but he has. And I think it's really
[13:33]starting to tell. So he and I, you know, we have a kind of stage of the body discussion on a
[13:41]monthly basis. What basically what's going wrong with you now? You know, you had that trouble with
[13:47]your foot or you you have a little to go back to running yet? No. How much is the strength in your
[13:54]left arm decreasing? I mean, it's because we're sharing our gradual decay together. And also
[14:05]he and I on this level at least have never had any trouble with competition, which is what
[14:11]corrupts these conversations. They'd be, you know, when they go off there are one of a series of
[14:16]one, one upsmanship. And it's unpleasant. But this is much more of mutual sharing of grievances
[14:27]and disappointments. And I think it does make us both feel better.
[14:32]I also think it's interesting in your book because women, as you point out, like the main
[14:37]character in your book, when she was growing up, women barely had to go through PE. They did like
[14:42]five sit-ups and it was like whatever. And you had some amazing women athletes go through this
[14:50]pathetic school rigmarole who had to find outlets for their amazing athleticism elsewhere. And so
[14:59]this character also was basically ignored and had to be, you know, like she does 500 sit-ups
[15:06]on her own every day without even thinking twice about it. So what about all those women who are
[15:10]are now getting older, who love working out, or don't love it, but need it. And then, you know,
[15:18]so I don't know. It's just very interesting because most books don't talk about that older female
[15:23]character who has had to reinvent herself and sort of use exercise in that way, the way that your
[15:29]book does, which is, I found super interesting. Oh, well, most books that involve athleticism
[15:37]are about triumph, right? So, you know, rocky three. They're always about overcoming difficulties.
[15:45]No, you'll sometimes have plots in which your brave, noble, powerful protagonist has a problem,
[15:54]because that's what you need for plots. Sometimes it's an injury. Sometimes it's a, you know,
[16:00]a terrible, you know, loss of confidence or a bout of depression, but you can bet that in
[16:07]almost every book, they're going to get on the other side of it and, you know, go win something.
[16:14]And all very well, that's the kind of fairytale we like. We always like to read, but I don't think
[16:22]it's much of a comfort to normal people. And I think it's important to be able to talk about
[16:29]our limitations with each other and our disappointments as well as talking about our triumphs.
[16:37]I got your older book called Double Fault, because I love tennis. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm also
[16:42]trying to write this novel about with a tennis theme as well. And it says a novel about marriage,
[16:47]the ultimate sport, which is like the best subtitle, basically ever. I kind of want you to just like
[16:54]sit here and like make fun of my marriage the way that I feel like your eye does so that you see
[17:00]and I feel like I can use like comic relief. But I feel like you must, you must have a very
[17:05]personal connection to that you must be an amazing athlete, first of all. I was sitting here
[17:09]reading all this stuff thinking like, well, you must be just this unspoken female athlete who you
[17:14]keep writing about and you're just too modest to discuss it. Is that true? You know, as soon as we get
[17:20]into this area, I get anxious because I've noticed that any kind of claims to image, especially
[17:29]amateur, amateur athletic achievement, backfire with people. There's a line I don't think you've
[17:35]got to in the book yet by one of the younger characters who says anybody who exercises less than you
[17:43]is pathetic and anybody who exercises more than you is a nut. And I think that's true. So essentially
[17:52]you can't win. So whatever I tell you about what I do or have done, your audience is going to be
[17:59]measuring what I say in relation to what they do. And on either side of that line, I lose. Right?
[18:07]So if they have always run way more than I have, you know, I'm pathetic. That's nothing.
[18:15]But if I've always run more than they have, then there's something wrong with me. I'm a nut.
[18:22]I have a problem. And so, you know, I'm probably going to avoid the specifics of whatever I do.
[18:29]All I will say is that I have been pretty dedicated on the physical front since I was in my early
[18:35]teens. But, you know, you can tell when you're reading the book with whom your author sympathizes.
[18:41]And it's not the guy who's out there doing all these public events. For me, it's always been a
[18:48]private matter. And again, you know, having to do with my relationship with myself and trying to
[18:54]keep the little house in which I walk around and reasonable order. I mean, to me, it really is
[19:01]a lot like, you know, vacuuming the carpet, right? You just try to keep your body in a sufficient
[19:08]shape that, as I said earlier, you can do other things in it. And so it's not a big claim to fame.
[19:16]The thing is I've always found it really heartbreaking when people have a relationship to their
[19:23]bodies that is hostile. And that relationship can be consuming for a lot of people in a really
[19:32]unpleasant way. And I find that very sad. And I'm afraid that's especially the case with women,
[19:38]though that neurotic relationship has become more masculine as well. I mean, after all, there's
[19:45]a big connection between my current book, the motion of the body through space and a previous
[19:51]novel. It's a couple books back called Big Brother, which is all about obesity. I steered very
[20:00]is of weight in the new book because I feel I've already dealt with that and I don't want
[20:05]to be redundant, but they are in some ways companion pieces because I'm interested in
[20:13]the broader issue of our relationships to our bodies.
[20:17]And that also means that, especially as the years advance, I'm interested in the experience
[20:23]of aging and that's something that whether or not you're interested in now, it will eventually
[20:29]become interested in you.
[20:31]So you don't have much choice unless you're just going to die early and that's not exactly
[20:39]in doing a little longer.
[20:41]So you know, and it is absolutely, it's fascinating.
[20:45]It's one of the hardest things in the world to do well.
[20:49]Very true.
[20:50]So tell me about how your books seem to have your finger on the pulse of basically everything
[20:56]that's going on and each book seems to tackle something very timely as you're saying
[21:00]obesity and that was through the lens of your brother if I understood correctly your
[21:06]older brother and your book when we talk about Kevin of course with violence and the
[21:11]mandibles with the financial crisis, there's always some link to something going on.
[21:17]And now of course exercise, I feel like you're like the forest gump of tackling topics
[21:22]with your novels, right?
[21:23]The way that he kept like bouncing through all of them.
[21:26]So I'm curious as to what is coming, what the ones next, what the next one will be for
[21:32]you, like what topics, like what do you see as the next big thing, are you already working
[21:36]on another novel?
[21:37]Oh, yeah.
[21:38]I'm almost finished with the first draft.
[21:41]And it's a, I wrote an earlier novel called The Post Birthday World, which is a parallel
[21:47]universe book, which looks at a woman's life depending on which man she ends up with
[21:51]and how it contrasts.
[21:54]But I enjoyed that format.
[21:56]It's very playful.
[21:58]And so I'm applying that to a couple who resolve when they're in their early 50s that
[22:06]because it's all downhill from about the age of 80 in order to spare themselves at
[22:11]their families and the healthcare system, they're going to kill themselves when they
[22:17]get to 80.
[22:18]But in this book, of course, they don't necessarily do that and it looks at many different
[22:23]outcomes.
[22:24]If they don't, obviously most of the outcomes are interesting when they don't, you know,
[22:28]what would they have missed out on?
[22:29]And in the last couple of chapters that gets into science fiction, I have had such fun
[22:35]with this book.
[22:36]It is all right.
[22:38]And again, it's very playful.
[22:39]It does little, little deliberate repetitions and taking up.
[22:43]And I think it's really important that it'd be fun because, of course, the material is
[22:48]a big wreck.
[22:49]Right.
[22:50]It's about aging and mortality.
[22:51]Oh, great.
[22:52]Let's read that.
[22:53]I can't wait.
[22:55]But because of the premise and the way that it's organized and so even if you have one of
[23:03]the couple died in the next chapter, they're all right.
[23:05]So I don't want to say that, you know, the reader is not as to take it seriously.
[23:10]But it's a kind of thought experiment about the different possible outcomes for the end
[23:16]of our lives.
[23:17]And it's a big issue.
[23:19]Okay.
[23:20]And by the way, this is an issue that's not going anywhere, anytime soon, including
[23:24]with coronavirus, it's enormous.
[23:27]And especially as we continue to have extended life expectancy, you know, I think it's
[23:33]worth asking.
[23:34]The women of our tolerance for the degradation of our quality of life.
[23:39]And, you know, it's all very well for us to say, well, you know, I would never go to a nursing
[23:43]home.
[23:44]You know, I would find that intolerable.
[23:46]And I think that, you know, the loss of freedom, for example, having other people wipe
[23:50]my bum.
[23:52]I, and being told, you know, you can't have a second class point.
[23:57]Because being in other people's control would drive me crazy.
[24:02]And who knows what's going to happen really?
[24:05]Because people may accommodate decay by degrees.
[24:09]They accommodate sacrifice by degrees.
[24:13]And then before you know it, you're in a circumstance and putting up with limitations that
[24:18]you never would have thought you would have tolerated when you were younger.
[24:21]And I guess, you know, this is infinitely interesting.
[24:25]That sounds amazing.
[24:26]My grandmother is 96 and she's in a nursing home essentially.
[24:30]It's like a collection of apartments, but it's a glorified nursing home.
[24:33]And right now, like, they won't even let her leave her tiny little apartment to take
[24:37]a walk down the endlessly long hallways because of the coronavirus.
[24:41]And it's like, you know, that sounds awesome.
[24:43]She's so upset.
[24:44]I mean, it's terrible.
[24:46]And she doesn't totally get it because she's getting a little confused.
[24:48]And it's like the worst.
[24:50]And like we can't go visit her.
[24:52]Anyway, you know, it sounds like torture.
[24:54]Right?
[24:55]It's like torture.
[24:56]Yeah.
[24:57]Right.
[24:58]Yeah.
[24:59]Although I can find it with my children also feels torturous.
[25:01]No, I'm kidding.
[25:02]But not really kidding.
[25:03]But no, I case they're listening.
[25:05]I love them.
[25:06]But anyway, it all, I mean, confinement against you will in any situation is just not
[25:12]pleasant, as we're all finding around the world right now.
[25:16]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[25:18]You've written so many books and you've continued to say relevant, like, with at every turn,
[25:23]with like never, and now your new book sounds even greater than the one that I'm currently
[25:27]reading is amazing.
[25:28]What's like, what's your advice and how do you, how do you keep coming up with ideas
[25:32]that really speak to people and include your sense of humor, which I'm a huge fan of?
[25:37]I think the main thing is to write whatever you do, I'm all pleased.
[25:41]That means go ahead and write about a cookie subject if you are interested in it or it
[25:47]pertains to you or captures your imagination and that the key is just to follow your own
[25:53]heart and your own creative sense, whatever gets your juices flowing.
[25:59]And yet also applies to any sense of political limitations you may have, be brave.
[26:06]The world is your oyster.
[26:07]That's one of the things that's great about being a fiction writer.
[26:09]You can write about anything.
[26:12]That's in fact what makes it daunting because that much freedom is frightening and can
[26:18]lead to a kind of paralysis.
[26:21]So that's why when I choose my subjects.
[26:23]I just go with whatever little freaky thing floats my boat.
[26:28]And then even along the way, I use lots of little tidbits.
[26:33]As long as they are the source of some emotion in my life, that's usually a good sign
[26:37]that I can do something with it.
[26:39]I mean, I don't think you've got to it in the book yet, but the new book, the exercise
[26:44]book, there's a backstory and the husband, Remington, he works for the Department
[26:51]of Transportation in Albany and he gets very excited about this issue of LED streetlights
[26:58]because you can choose different kelvin ratings and it really matters what it feels like
[27:04]in a city depending on what new streetlights they put in.
[27:08]When they put in the really bright, hard blue ones, everything looks ugly and you want to
[27:14]kill yourself.
[27:15]I mean, it's just, it's a kind of assault.
[27:18]And so he's really into making sure that Albany puts in attractive, lower level, warmer
[27:23]streetlights that are still going to save energy that are make life beautiful at night.
[27:31]And you know, I just grabbed this because I spent part of the year in New York City and
[27:35]in my neighborhood of Brooklyn and of course this is spread throughout the entire fiberos,
[27:41]they've put in really, really awful, cold, blue, glaring, hideous LED street lamps.
[27:50]And it drove me to despair and so I just, you want an advice for writers, I'm just giving
[27:57]you an example of something that had nothing to do with my life infection.
[28:04]It was a part of my regular life and I even wrote an op-ed for the New York Times complaining
[28:10]about these lights, not that it did any good, like most of it.
[28:15]Use your passions, whatever they are, you know, just something that stirs a reaction
[28:21]in you.
[28:22]And that, that can be something public like these street lamps or it can be much something
[28:26]much more private, something that's driving you crazy with your spouse or one of your best
[28:31]friends, whatever.
[28:33]But look for where the heat is.
[28:34]I love that.
[28:35]I think I'm going to start keeping a list now of all the things that are pissing me off because
[28:39]I don't know.
[28:40]Maybe they'll find their way into a book.
[28:42]You're right.
[28:43]Right?
[28:44]I should.
[28:45]I should.
[28:46]It would probably be beneficial for many reasons to be doing that right now anyway.
[28:49]Get it off my chest.
[28:50]Thank you so much for this conversation.
[28:52]I'm sorry.
[28:53]I did not finish your book in time.
[28:54]I almost, I almost always get a chance to finish and I just didn't and I'm so sorry.
[28:59]It's not for lack of a bad excuse for everything now.
[29:02]I'm, we're all excused.
[29:05]Right now.
[29:06]We're all excused.
[29:07]I know.
[29:08]I'm really all pals.
[29:09]You know, get out of the all free, everything you, you read some of it and we had a delightful
[29:16]conversation.
[29:17]Well, thank you for understanding.
[29:19]And thank you and thanks for writing and I'm, you know, I'll continue to follow you forever.
[29:23]I've had the post birthday world by the way on my bookshelf since it came out and I love
[29:27]the color of the cover.
[29:28]I loved the book.
[29:29]So I actually think of you more than you might know because if it's placed, so anyway, well,
[29:37]thank you and thanks for, thanks for the chat.
[29:39]It was a pleasure.
[29:40]Thank you.
[29:41]Bye.
[29:42]Bye.
[29:43]Thanks again for listening to my podcast.
[29:44]Moms don't have time to read books.
[29:45]If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram at zippyowans and at moms don't
[29:51]have time to read books and sign up for my mailing list at zippyowans.com so you can always
[29:56]hear about the latest things I'm up to you.
[29:58]Thanks a lot.
[29:59]Thanks to you on sweetened and
[30:00]I see for partnering with us today and for making such badass shirts for women, many badass
[30:06]as I know, or listening now, and they need a uniform, so there you go.
[30:09]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing, and thank you
[30:13]to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[30:17]Thanks for listening.
[30:18]You can always email me at zibi at zibiowens.com.