Alli Frank & Asha Youmans, TINY IMPERFECTIONS
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[1:19]So go to startsmallthinkbig.org and help out. I'm here today with Ali Frank and Asha
[1:25]humans who are the debut co-authors of tiny imperfections and novel. Ali has worked in education
[1:30]for 20 plus years in San Francisco in Seattle in both public and private schools as a teacher,
[1:35]college counselor, coach, and assistant head. She's the co-founder of the International Friends
[1:40]School, a graduate of Cornell and Stanford University. She currently lives in Seattle with her
[1:44]husband and two daughters. Asha has taught in public and private elementary schools for
[1:48]almost 20 years. The graduate of UC Berkeley, she lives with her husband and two sons in Seattle.
[1:53]Welcome, Asha and Ali. Thanks for coming on mom's and have time to read books.
[1:56]Absolutely. We're happy to be here. Thank you so much for having us.
[2:00]No, it's such a treat. I was telling you before I found your book, Tiny Imperfections,
[2:03]to be completely hilarious and great and just perfect, like pitch perfect. So it was really a
[2:09]really fun read. I'm happy to be talking to you. Oh, we're so glad you like it. We find ourselves
[2:13]thinking of moments and referring to moments in the book and cracking ourselves up still. So
[2:18]we're glad you like it. Yeah. I mean, for a long time when we were writing it, we were hilarious
[2:24]to ourselves in Starbucks over and over. And I think the baristas were like, who are those crazy
[2:29]ladies for a good solid year? Just laugh in themselves silly in the corner. It was kind of nice
[2:34]that now a year and a half later when we're now working on other things, we're still thinking
[2:39]back to what we wrote and we still find humor. So it's good that we hope everyone finds it
[2:43]humorous. If you don't find it funny, chances are my husband, like he's co writing a TV show pilot
[2:52]whatever. And they just he and his friend are on the phone just hysterically laughing.
[2:56]He's like, I'm working. I'm like, you were not working. I don't know. You cannot be having this
[2:59]much fun. But sounds like the two of you have that same thing. Yes. It's true. We start some of
[3:04]our work session. Well, every work session just checking in and about family, things like that,
[3:09]but inevitably end up laughing a whole lot before we even get down to it. So let's back up.
[3:15]What is tiny imperfections about please tell listeners? Tiny imperfections is an intergenerational
[3:22]mother-daughter story. It's set against the cutthroat admission season of San Francisco's
[3:28]most prestigious private school. And the book addresses race and single parenting and dating at
[3:35]40. And it's the perfect read to give to somebody comes out right before Mother's Day on May 5th.
[3:42]And it's great if you want to give the gift of laughter to someone in your life. And we hope
[3:46]they laugh their faces off. I always say that because that's what happens to me. My my cheek
[3:51]start to hurt from from laughing at a really good book. Kick your heels up and read this one.
[3:56]And we think it's a unique lens and looking at a school and looking at a private school because
[4:01]the intergenerational part is Aunt Viv, who's been the head cook at the school for 50 years.
[4:08]And then her niece, Josie, who she raised, who is an alumnus of the school and has a return
[4:13]and is the director of admissions at the school. And then Josie's daughter, Eda, who is now a senior
[4:19]at the school. So it's 50 years of these three women who are black, who have lived through
[4:26]different generations in this very privileged, rarefied world. And it through humor looks at what
[4:33]similarities they share with the community of which they've invested themselves professionally and
[4:38]educationally, but also how they're different. And that it is all about love with the family,
[4:45]but it's also love of the school community. For us, we've both been educators for over 20 years.
[4:51]And we love schools so very much. So in a way for us, this is our love letter to schools and our
[4:58]love letter school communities because no other company is full of humans for whom the product is
[5:06]actually humans. And within when you have that, it's just a whole lot of messiness, but a whole
[5:13]lot of love. And that's really why we wanted to write this. Do you think your schools are
[5:18]receiving this letter with a sense of humor? We hope so. And we hope that everybody remembers that
[5:25]it's fiction. And because we've had so many decades in not only public and private schools, but
[5:31]just organizations that work with children. I've worked in before and after school programs,
[5:35]different ways to serve kids. And this is a culmination of our experiences, even the characters
[5:42]themselves. I have an amviv, but this is not necessarily just her. It's a culmination of a lot
[5:48]of black women in my life that have had an impact on me that have taught me to be a woman,
[5:53]taught me to be a kind person going through the world and putting all those characteristics
[5:57]together to make somebody that hopefully looks like someone we all need in our lives.
[6:02]And the same is true for the people that work in the school in this story. They're all, I mean,
[6:07]we have thousands of stories about kids, parents, staff, administrators. And we couldn't get them
[6:16]all just in one book. But we certainly hope we got a little bit of flavor from a bunch of people
[6:21]we've met over the years into this one. And I love you keep saying, you hope there's more to come
[6:26]for all these characters. So I feel like you have a vision of this whole series of what's
[6:31]happening right now. We do have a vision. Yeah. We love our ladies. We do love our board of
[6:38]and there's so much to explore in terms of what a school environment is as well. The characters
[6:43]that have come in and out of our lives. I mean, we've we've been part of hundreds of families
[6:48]being a teacher. It feels that way. So the stories you can bring out just of your own family
[6:53]there in the thousands. When you're part of that many families, there's just so many to choose from.
[6:59]Especially when each year it changes. Yes. That's great. You'll never run out of content.
[7:03]There's a really good one. It's only interesting. It's really where you can reliably know that
[7:08]all the people in your life will change every single year. Yeah. It's crazy. Well, and just like
[7:12]Josie said in the book, you know, she's been working in Fairchild Country Day for 13, 14 years
[7:20]and there's still things in her year. She's like, well, never saw that one again. And that is
[7:26]the beauty of working with families. It is also the amazing thing about working with kids
[7:32]because it's a constant status surprise. And that's why I don't want to speak for you.
[7:36]Oh, I think that's why I've always loved working in schools because every day was different.
[7:43]It's not there's nothing that's on repeat. And even on a day where you think, oh, I'm getting up,
[7:48]I'm putting my pants on the same way to go to the same place to work. 15 minutes in,
[7:53]something surprises you. And that's, you know, again, that's part of our love letter to schools
[8:00]and why we've always loved schools. But I do want to say that we, you know, we want to make
[8:05]clear because people do always ask that there aren't any stories in our book that are like,
[8:10]oh, remember the time that blah, blah, blah happened? Like we took bits and pieces of so many
[8:15]parts of our lives and the multitude of schools we've been in. And we created this, this book.
[8:23]But you know, our characters are fiction. And we love them for exactly that because we got to
[8:29]make them up. So you are not Josie and Lowe. You did not meet in some of the classes.
[8:33]I'm kidding. We did not meet in Zoom. I know. I know you do resemble those characters.
[8:40]I mean, I don't know you that well, but I'm thinking you. Yeah, for sure.
[8:44]We actually met in doing admissions. I did admissions for a dozen years at the same school
[8:51]where Ellie then came on board as my assistant headed school. And we were on the same admissions
[8:57]team. And my classroom was below Ellie's office and the administrative offices. And we'd
[9:04]often meet in the kitchen and passing in on our way to somewhere in admissions detail. We had to
[9:10]forgot her and say, gosh, did you, did you see that one kid? Oh man, he was so hilarious. Did you
[9:15]see what he said? I mean, oh my god, did you see that massive bunker? He was trying to get up in
[9:20]the middle of his nose the whole time he was trying to get mouth at the same time. Four of a
[9:25]magical party all at once. What was that? I mean, we found ourselves laughing about the kids,
[9:31]loving the kids we met, hopefully, laughing with and at the parents we met in their nervousness
[9:37]because we've been there before, sympathizing with them as well. But we also have the same sense of
[9:42]humor. Yep. You know, and we can see those tiny imperfections that are in our students and
[9:47]appreciate them instead of focusing only on how to fix them. And we found a bond over that.
[9:53]Yep. I think this similar sense of humor is really what ultimately, because that was years
[10:00]hit up writing this book together.
[10:02]But the similar sense of humor connected us
[10:07]once it was out of admission seasons
[10:08]and then it was maybe over the summer
[10:11]then we went on to do other things
[10:12]at different places with different schools.
[10:15]But we always stayed connected when some story came up
[10:19]and we wanted to share with the other person
[10:22]because when you're laughing at something
[10:25]you wanna connect with the person
[10:26]you know will find it funny too.
[10:28]And so that just always kept each of us
[10:32]in like our minds and hearts
[10:34]as then we end up here with a book
[10:36]that we've actually written which is
[10:37]when you were joking with each other
[10:39]in the back of your head
[10:39]where you're like, this is going in our book.
[10:41]Oh my god.
[10:42]You have to say that with all the time.
[10:43]You have to say that with all the time.
[10:44]You have to say all the time.
[10:46]I mean, I wouldn't just tell Ali
[10:48]but I'd go around and go,
[10:49]oh my gosh, this is going in my book someday
[10:51]or to another teacher.
[10:52]I know you have a good story about that one kid.
[10:55]That one's gotta go on my book.
[10:57]So don't forget it.
[10:58]I really consider myself a storyteller who writes.
[11:02]It's one of the talents of mine
[11:04]that I've enjoyed cultivating by working with small children
[11:08]reading aloud to them
[11:10]and trying to convince them to continue
[11:12]to hold on to books their entire lives
[11:15]including being read to.
[11:17]And I managed to do it with my own up until at least middle school
[11:21]but cultivating readers was one of my favorite parts of my job.
[11:27]And tell me about how you brought your own sort of
[11:29]backgrounds and family experiences into it.
[11:31]Tell me about your dad.
[11:32]He went to the same school.
[11:34]Yes.
[11:34]Tell me about that and how you used that experience as fiction.
[11:38]Well, my dad, TJ Vasser, who in December,
[11:42]I believe, 2012 was honored by President Obama with.
[11:47]He was gifted with basketball at a fundraising dinner
[11:51]when he was on a stop in Seattle, Washington.
[11:53]And my dad was so surprised.
[11:56]He came out of a room and said, hey, is that TJ?
[11:59]And my dad thought, oh, this is it.
[12:00]They found me out.
[12:01]Yeah.
[12:02]Yeah, I know this about whatever that's going on.
[12:05]We're here with a great wife.
[12:06]We're here with a great wife.
[12:07]We're here with a great wife.
[12:09]But when a Secret Service tossed a ball to the President
[12:11]and he presented it to my dad and it said, TJ,
[12:14]lucky to have you on my team at Barack Obama.
[12:18]One of the greatest gifts in his life before he passed
[12:21]was receiving that ball.
[12:23]Because I remember growing up, him telling me
[12:25]that he didn't really think there would be a black president
[12:28]in his life, but he was sure there would be one in my life.
[12:32]So for him to be able to see that was a great gift.
[12:35]And then to go on to meet the president was amazing.
[12:39]But yeah, he was the first African-American graduate
[12:41]of Lakeside School in Seattle, Washington.
[12:44]I'm the first second generation.
[12:47]My son is now the first third generation black
[12:49]to graduate from Lakeside School.
[12:52]And it was one of many firsts for my dad.
[12:55]He went from clean cup, preppy school boy
[13:00]to Afroed Out protester in the span of one year
[13:04]going to Harvard from Lakeside and convinced the school
[13:08]as through protest and demands to create
[13:11]an Afro-American studies program.
[13:13]And he was among the first graduates of that program
[13:16]to receive a degree from Harvard and African-American studies.
[13:19]He went on to be the first commissioner
[13:21]of African-American Affairs for the state of Washington,
[13:24]the youngest and first black president
[13:26]of the Seattle Public School Board, just so many things
[13:29]that he was the first that.
[13:31]He gave me the courage to be a pioneer,
[13:34]to be open to talking to people about new and difficult things,
[13:39]to approach issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion
[13:43]with no judgment and with an open heart.
[13:47]Those are some of the biggest lessons
[13:49]I've learned from him.
[13:50]And education is a place where you can practice those skills
[13:55]all the time.
[13:56]And they are skills to practice for all of us.
[13:59]Did he get to read the book?
[14:00]He did not get to read the book.
[14:02]So I can tell you that right now he would be my biggest fan.
[14:05]After my mom, she might be number one.
[14:08]But he would be my biggest cheerleader,
[14:10]definitely seeing me become a writer
[14:12]would have been his livestream.
[14:14]Do you feel like those are big shoes to feel like?
[14:16]Oh, for sure.
[14:18]Yes.
[14:18]And he had big shoes to feel because he went on
[14:20]to become a administrator at Lakeside.
[14:23]And the people and the things and the lessons
[14:26]that he touched and passed on through his life
[14:28]and work there, they had big shoes to feel after him,
[14:31]but they're doing it.
[14:33]Because they had the courage to step into those shoes
[14:36]and give it a shot.
[14:38]So yeah, I think writing about race,
[14:40]be willing to talk to Allie and share this book
[14:42]and where race is a factor in the story.
[14:46]Take some courage.
[14:47]You have to be ready for someone's criticism
[14:50]that may not enjoy this type of duo
[14:52]or agree with what our story is.
[14:55]But I know it's a genuine one.
[14:57]And I know that we both approach it
[14:59]with the most positive of intentions
[15:02]and the hope to learn something or to teach something
[15:06]in our encounters.
[15:07]We connect with people through it.
[15:09]I mean, so crazy that people could object to people.
[15:12]I mean, it's not the whole point.
[15:13]It's not like it's not supposed to be
[15:15]about what we look like or where we're from
[15:17]and that is supposed to be about things
[15:18]like our shared sense of humor and humanity.
[15:21]But like, I don't know.
[15:22]I feel like the kind, I don't want to get off on this.
[15:25]I just feel like people have so over corrected
[15:27]in the wrong way to be critical is something just so simple
[15:32]and elemental to human nature for, anyway.
[15:37]I think it's great, but it would be great,
[15:40]no matter what, races you were.
[15:42]What, as long as you have the same,
[15:44]writing is that writing style in the same.
[15:47]I don't know.
[15:48]I think you're art in your heart.
[15:49]Yeah, so of course it's not about your heart.
[15:50]I don't know.
[15:51]I don't know.
[15:52]We're singing to the choir.
[15:54]We know.
[15:54]We know.
[15:55]And we know.
[15:57]I will get off of that.
[15:58]We know.
[16:00]You know, the funny thing about this book,
[16:04]first of all, the admissions part itself,
[16:05]which is hilarious, but not the whole book, right?
[16:08]It's not a whole book about it.
[16:10]It's a really kind of delicate relationship story as well.
[16:13]And I really appreciated that.
[16:15]But the admissions stuff was so funny,
[16:17]especially in the beginning with the rescheduling
[16:18]and all of that stuff.
[16:19]And I was at dinner last night with some friends
[16:21]who have someone applying to kindergarten.
[16:23]And actually, my little guy is going to kindergarten.
[16:25]Anyway, at the time, you feel like it's so important,
[16:28]like with my big kids, where your kid goes to school.
[16:30]Feels like the biggest deal ever that you're determining
[16:34]what's going to happen with their entire lives
[16:37]and livelihood and everything.
[16:38]It's like the most pressure ever.
[16:40]And like my kids have all changed schools.
[16:42]It's not that you can always change your mind.
[16:45]And I feel like it's one of the things
[16:47]I've learned I don't know about the two of you,
[16:48]but as I've gotten older, it's like,
[16:49]especially with the school thing.
[16:51]All that pressure, it's like, you can change schools.
[16:53]If it's not right, it's like not that big a deal, right?
[16:56]I mean, absolutely.
[16:58]I, you know, as a person that's gone to both public
[17:02]and private schools, my parents,
[17:06]a lot gave me the privilege.
[17:07]I have great parents who encouraged me to go where it
[17:10]was best for me.
[17:12]That three kids, each of us went to different schools.
[17:15]They helped us choose the place that was good for ourself.
[17:20]Of course, they weren't charged.
[17:21]And they helped us, you know, they made those decisions.
[17:24]Some of you have to pay for.
[17:25]Some of them are too far for the family.
[17:27]You know, it doesn't work for everyone.
[17:30]But you have to parent and teach the child
[17:32]that's in front of you.
[17:34]And not the one you imagine that they may be someday.
[17:38]Yep.
[17:38]So it's so much more important to find a place
[17:41]where they're happy right now,
[17:43]where they feel successful right now.
[17:46]Because that's the bigger impact on their future.
[17:50]And I think to that, the parents lose the idea
[17:52]at these really pivotal moments,
[17:54]whether it's going into kindergarten or it's
[17:57]going into high school or it's applying to college
[18:00]or, you know, it's the first heartbreaker,
[18:03]whatnot, that parenting and life is fluid.
[18:07]And that if something's going well,
[18:11]something else is dropping off the cliff.
[18:13]And we've now have this undue pressure on children
[18:16]that everything has to be an uphill trajectory
[18:20]that we're going to get you into potentially
[18:22]the perfect school for you.
[18:24]And then from that moment forward,
[18:27]it is going to be, you know, your math takes off
[18:29]and your reading takes off and your social life takes off
[18:32]and your sports take off.
[18:33]And that's so much pressure on a child
[18:36]when every human in the world,
[18:38]life does not work like that.
[18:40]Right now, Ash and I are having a great time
[18:43]focusing on, you know, talking about tiny imperfections
[18:47]and working on other things.
[18:49]But at home, my house is falling apart.
[18:51]Things are raking down.
[18:53]The state of dinner time is not pretty.
[18:57]And, you know, so I have professionally,
[18:59]it's going on great,
[19:00]but at home, it's a little raggedy.
[19:03]But we don't allow that for children anymore.
[19:06]And that is an unfair pressure to put on a child
[19:10]and unfair pressure to put on schools.
[19:13]And so the need to be fluid and to see,
[19:17]you know, this might be the right school for now.
[19:19]It might be the right school for three years,
[19:22]for 10 years, who knows.
[19:24]But that, the idea that, you know,
[19:26]we're going to get them in the right kindergarten.
[19:28]And then it's going to be good for the next 12 years.
[19:30]This is just, you know, it's a fallacy.
[19:33]It's not really reality.
[19:34]Chris, I wonder if I was listening to this conversation
[19:36]back when I didn't have any kids in school
[19:38]if I'd be like, easy for you to say,
[19:40]you already have all your kids in school.
[19:41]Yeah, totally.
[19:42]Because it's easy with our point of view now, but I don't know.
[19:45]I guess I can hear my dad saying in the back of my mind,
[19:49]well, every kid is in school.
[19:50]There's a local public school somewhere near you.
[19:53]No one is going to be left out of kindergarten.
[19:56]Yeah.
[19:56]And then every school,
[19:59]there will be teachers.
[20:00]She's the love your child at every school.
[20:02]I hope so.
[20:03]Yeah.
[20:04]I also really enjoyed the part about golden boy in your book.
[20:07]And actually, I've been working on this novel myself
[20:10]for a long time called 40 Love About Falling in Love
[20:12]Again at 40 because I'm divorced and remarried.
[20:14]And I had called the main guy Golden Boy in my book.
[20:18]So when I read years, I literally went into my manuscript
[20:20]and I was like, find a place for all of the golden boy.
[20:24]I was like, I'm just going to come by his actual name
[20:27]that I had already given him anyway.
[20:29]So I was thinking of you as I went through that.
[20:31]But it was also really interesting that whole,
[20:33]I mean, I don't want to give anything away.
[20:34]So maybe I shouldn't talk about it.
[20:35]But that whole-
[20:36]Can I jump here?
[20:37]Yes.
[20:38]So that was really humorous and interesting trajectory
[20:43]as writing about the romance or the relationship part of Josie
[20:47]for two reasons.
[20:48]One is that we did really want the book
[20:51]to focus on a woman profession first, romance second.
[20:58]So many, even in this time where women are doing incredible things,
[21:02]so many of the lighter reads or women's fiction or rom-con
[21:06]lead with the romance.
[21:08]And then who she is after that is secondary.
[21:10]And so it was super important for us
[21:13]to lead with her professional success and her ability
[21:17]to get herself where she is on her own.
[21:21]But then when we turned it into our editor
[21:23]and she gave us great feedback and we needed to puff up
[21:25]the romance part.
[21:27]Then I mean, Asha married her boyfriend from freshman year
[21:31]in college.
[21:32]And I got married later.
[21:34]But now I've been married for a while.
[21:36]And we had a lot of struggles.
[21:38]Like, okay, what was it like in the beginning of our relationship
[21:41]when, you know, the sexy thing wasn't unloading the dishwasher.
[21:46]The sexy thing was actually something sexy.
[21:48]Yeah.
[21:49]Oh yeah.
[21:50]And so, I mean, one of my greatest memories
[21:52]is we had to redo this one scene.
[21:56]And it was scene.
[21:57]The kissing scene.
[21:58]And we were actually like sitting up on bed
[22:01]in a hotel room together eating tortilla chips, right?
[22:04]Okay, so what was it like?
[22:06]Like, let's think back to those heated times.
[22:09]So it was very humorous us trying to get back
[22:13]in that headspace of that initial desire and want for love.
[22:19]Because we are a couple of two old married ladies.
[22:22]Yeah, you want to say it?
[22:23]Yeah, we have to take it so much pretty much.
[22:25]So it was fun and it was hilarious, actually,
[22:27]to do that part.
[22:29]Oh gosh.
[22:30]So aside from wanting to turn this into a multi-book series,
[22:35]what's coming next for you guys?
[22:36]You have the tour.
[22:37]Like, tell me what's on the horizon.
[22:39]Well, we just finished a visit with the American Library
[22:42]Association conference in Philadelphia, which was great.
[22:45]We were on a panel of debut authors there.
[22:48]And so warmly welcomed by all the staff
[22:51]at that conference.
[22:53]And we're always writing.
[22:55]We are working on book two, we hope.
[22:58]And we have an idea for where the board alone family is going.
[23:02]But we also have a secondary story that we have in mind.
[23:06]Completely away from the board loans.
[23:08]Maybe they might kiss each other.
[23:09]You know, the stories may melt just a little bit
[23:12]somewhere along the way.
[23:14]Like when one of the characters comes on a sitcom,
[23:15]I can get some spoons and then I'll print them
[23:17]and then they have a spinoff.
[23:18]Yeah, I feel like that.
[23:21]Yes.
[23:22]But I think that our goal is to continue
[23:25]to write this type of book.
[23:27]It's something that we both love to read.
[23:30]And most advice we've gotten when you hear about becoming
[23:34]a writer is write what you like.
[23:36]And we have enjoyed writing this style and this type of story
[23:40]so much.
[23:41]I think we'll return to it.
[23:42]And I would add it.
[23:43]We can share our good stuff.
[23:45]So we can share the good stuff.
[23:47]Yeah, exactly.
[23:48]So we have been optioned for TV.
[23:53]Excellent.
[23:54]Which is great.
[23:55]It was super exciting.
[23:56]But I will so we have a lot of exciting stuff
[23:59]on the writing front and with hopefully television and film.
[24:03]But for us and you attended to this earlier,
[24:06]we really want to be able to go out and talk to people
[24:11]about how to be in conversation with someone
[24:16]who may look different than you.
[24:17]But when you have really real conversations
[24:20]and you do something hard together, like write a book,
[24:24]you find your commonalities.
[24:26]You find the humanity in one another.
[24:30]And that, unfortunately, it does feel like we're in a time
[24:33]in a space in our country where we're saying we all
[24:37]need to understand and know each other better.
[24:40]But the minute you do something in elegant,
[24:44]but from a good place, you're slapped so hard
[24:48]that who wants to go out there and then ever connect again.
[24:51]And so in this era of like, we all need to connect,
[24:55]we're actually being polarized back
[24:57]into our own very similar communities.
[24:59]Because our hands get slapped too fast.
[25:02]And Ash and I really want to be able to go out
[25:05]and talk to people about how to do hard work together.
[25:10]We've both had super in the elegant moments with each other
[25:16]down to when this idea for this book actually came to me
[25:19]on a bus going to the airport in Boise, Idaho.
[25:23]I got to Boise and I get a little overly enthusiastic.
[25:27]And I called Ash a right away because I finally
[25:29]had cell cell service.
[25:30]And I was like, oh yeah, do you want to meet for coffee
[25:32]and talk about race and writing?
[25:34]And I'm like, I probably could have put that a little better.
[25:37]But it was an excitement to share an idea
[25:40]with my friend Ashah, who is different and similar
[25:44]to me at the same time.
[25:46]And Ashah was like, let's do it.
[25:49]And now 20 months later, here we are.
[25:54]And what a shame if I hadn't been so enthusiastic.
[25:58]What a shame if Ashah hadn't been so open of heart
[26:02]then we wouldn't be here sitting talking to you.
[26:04]So I think in the grand scheme of like our writing
[26:07]or books of there's anything with television and film,
[26:10]our greatest hope is to be able to share our experience
[26:14]together as co-authors and as professionals working
[26:20]together.
[26:21]I think at the end of the day, that would be the most fun for us.
[26:24]Any advice to aspiring authors?
[26:26]Oh, goodness, I would say read, read, read.
[26:30]I would say that to anybody.
[26:32]And then write it down.
[26:33]Just write everything.
[26:36]Figure out if you can put it together
[26:38]and share it with your friends.
[26:40]Share it with someone you trust.
[26:41]Be open to honest criticism.
[26:44]And be ready for a lot of criticism.
[26:47]And know that it's OK, that's how we grow
[26:51]is to figure out where our flaws are either in ourselves
[26:54]or our writing or whatever else we do.
[26:56]But take those lessons as an opportunity for you
[27:00]to become that person you're looking to become.
[27:03]If no one criticizes your writing,
[27:04]and just tells you it's great, well,
[27:07]why do you put it out there?
[27:08]Because the public will tell you.
[27:10]So I would say write, just start to begin.
[27:14]I always wanted to write my wrote short stories.
[27:17]I wrote for myself.
[27:18]And in the beginning, that satisfied
[27:21]the writing part of who I was, to write for myself.
[27:24]When Ali invited me on this project, I was like, gosh,
[27:28]this is my chance.
[27:29]I'm going to actually do it.
[27:31]Jumped in with both feet, gave it a shot.
[27:33]Awesome.
[27:34]And mine would be weird.
[27:37]The American culture is definitely a culture of the salesman
[27:42]culture, like talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
[27:44]And we don't always honor the observer of life.
[27:50]And I would say my advice is be an observer.
[27:56]Take two steps back off your own precipice.
[27:59]And wherever you are, when you're in conversation
[28:03]with other people, if you're at a gathering,
[28:06]if you're in a train station, they're just
[28:08]a ton of people around.
[28:10]Just be an observer of life, because that
[28:14]will ultimately give you so much juice for your book.
[28:19]And it's also a beautiful way to walk through the world.
[28:23]So I would just say, don't be fearful of being
[28:27]the quieter person.
[28:29]Don't be fearful, the observer person,
[28:32]because it will just make your writing better.
[28:34]I would say that one last thing is my dad would say,
[28:38]connecting with people.
[28:39]And that's ultimately, as Ali was saying, our true goal.
[28:44]The one thing I watched him do with such grace and amazing
[28:49]ability is he would learn where a person was from,
[28:53]what their cultural background was, by asking them
[28:57]to self-identify.
[28:59]He and then he would learn from them,
[29:01]how to say hello in their language,
[29:04]how to compliment a woman in their language,
[29:06]and how to say something naughty in their language.
[29:08]And those three things make people laugh,
[29:11]make people listen, look at you, and offer an opportunity
[29:15]to connect.
[29:17]So get out there and meet people.
[29:18]It sounds like a super special thing.
[29:20]Oh, he definitely was.
[29:21]I didn't get a chance to meet him.
[29:22]I wish that he would have loved him.
[29:24]Everyone loved him.
[29:25]I didn't feel like he would have loved him.
[29:28]Well, thank you so much for coming on the show
[29:31]and bring your great book.
[29:32]So that's so luck, everything.
[29:34]Thank you so much.
[29:35]You've been listening to Mom's and have time
[29:36]to read books with Zibi Owens.
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