Kari Lizer, AREN'T YOU FORGETTING SOMEONE?
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[0:21]Hi, everybody. I hope this week you'll check out We Found Time, my new online magazine,
[0:25]where we have essays this week by bestselling author Jill Santapolo, who wrote the
[0:30]the light we lost about her working out, VC Chickering, Allison Kane, Melissa Schultz,
[0:36]and Ashley Prentice Norton, who wrote the chocolate money, which I love. They have written five
[0:41]amazing, beautiful essays and you should go check them out at wefoundtime.com.
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[1:53]field snacks for being a sponsor. Carrie Lizer is the author of Aren't You Forgetting Someone,
[1:58]essays from My Midlife Revenge. She is the creator of the award-winning show The New Adventures
[2:02]of Old Christine, which was based on her life as a single working mom, and an Emmy-nominated
[2:07]co-executive producer of Will and Grace. She splits her time between Los Angeles and Vermont.
[2:12]Welcome Carrie, thanks so much for coming on Momstone. I have time to read books.
[2:15]Thanks for having me.
[2:16]Can you please tell listeners about Aren't You Forgetting Someone, essays from My Midlife Revenge?
[2:22]Can you tell everybody what this book is about?
[2:24]Well, it's a collection of essays, but there's diversity there, but a lot of them are about
[2:30]my coming to terms with the loss of my identity as a mom, more or less, coming to this place in
[2:37]my life where all three of my kids are out of the house and what it meant. And I had stopped working
[2:44]as hard as I was working too. So things sort of came to a screeching halt all of a sudden where
[2:48]my house was empty. I didn't have three kids who I was constantly nagging about getting into college,
[2:55]getting up in the morning, getting their homework done, figuring out what they were going to
[2:58]be and do with the rest of their lives. And also running television shows, working on television
[3:04]shows, writing scripts, trying to do that, sell things. And so all of that sort of ended all
[3:09]at the same time. And I found myself sort of in this void of purpose. And so I started writing
[3:15]about it. And this sort of no man's land, time of life. Also, it's the same time when my parents
[3:21]are aging and that added to the equation of who am I and what am I doing with myself? And I
[3:26]started and I wrote stories about it. And they're so funny. I mean, yours, you make all the
[3:32]everyday occurrences like laugh out loudable. So that was really awesome as a reader to read.
[3:38]And also speaking, speaking also as a mother, because my kids are still relatively young,
[3:44]I love reading books by people whose kids are just a little bit older because it shows me
[3:50]the path. Right. I just read somewhere somebody said like when you're a new mom, somebody who has
[3:54]a child who's six weeks old is like a profit. But now I feel like I feel like now when you have
[4:00]school age kids, it's people like you who show us the way and give us a preview of what's to come.
[4:06]So and then people going through it, of course, can relate as well. So it's like the perfect
[4:10]time to write about I think and to read about. Yeah. Well, it's still shocking when it happens,
[4:15]even though you know, it's coming. I mean, everything you do when your kids are going to school
[4:20]is in preparation for that moment when they leave. I mean, I really, I think I think I even talk
[4:24]about it in the book I do that I was, I went to this playwrights conference. I was writing a play
[4:29]about this emptiness time of life thing and about a woman that falls apart when her only child leaves.
[4:35]And she was this sort of super mom who had done everything and was room-parent and,
[4:39]and you know, went along on all the field trips and did all of these things. And then the kid leaves
[4:44]and she completely falls apart and her marriage falls apart and everything else happens to her.
[4:49]And so I'm writing this play about it at this conference. And there was this man there who was
[4:53]lost with the conference and he said, I don't understand why this is a play. Why is she surprised?
[4:58]Why? And I was like, do you have children? And he had kids still left at home and I said,
[5:04]it is still a shock, even though everything you do sort of is in preparation for this moment when
[5:09]they leave, when they actually do it and it actually happens, it's still in such a shock to your
[5:15]system. And I feel like every stage of parenting is like that. I remember my son, one of my
[5:21]sons, I have two sons and a daughter. My son when he was nine years old and he was still in that
[5:25]really lambmy phase where he would sit on my lap and little leaky would run up after he would
[5:30]be at bat and kiss me on my cheek. And it was just the greatest time. And there was a woman
[5:36]at Little League who had a teenager and she said, oh, I remember those days and my son doesn't talk
[5:41]to me. And I thought, oh, she has a horrible kid, I guess. I mean, she got, you know,
[5:46]she got a bad seed. Well, how terrible for her. And I thought that will never happen to me.
[5:50]I have just these angelic children who will always sit on my lap and love me and hug me.
[5:56]And, you know, cut to five years later, whenever it was, that, of course, I had those same children
[6:01]that everybody has that, you know, separate from you. So all of it is always shocking, even though
[6:05]you see it coming down the road. Well, I think it's similar in a way to when you lose somebody,
[6:10]right, with grief, because you can know somebody's very sick and that the end is in sight,
[6:16]but knowing that it doesn't make that transition any easier. I find it's still shocking and awful
[6:23]when it happens. Absolutely. I think that's true. I think, you know, I, I'm at that age where
[6:28]a lot of my friends were losing our parents and many of our parents have been, you know,
[6:34]suffer with illnesses for years and years. And yes, still, still it is, it is a shock when they,
[6:40]when they go finally. And it is, it's, it's not easier just because we saw it coming. Yeah,
[6:45]things in life is like that, I guess. I guess we sort of, we protect ourselves against it. I
[6:51]guess denial is a, is a beautiful thing. I used to think that if I, if I worried about something
[6:57]enough that when it happened, it wouldn't bother me as much. I think I have that on the right.
[7:03]So I just like, the more I can ruminate, I must be prepared, but it turns out that really is an
[7:08]effective strategy. Yeah. I haven't, I haven't fully, you know, tucked it away in the closet,
[7:14]because I've been relying on it for so long that it's hard to retire. But it is, it is one way.
[7:20]And I've related also, it's not the same as what happened when your three kids were gone,
[7:25]but my oldest son went to boarding school this past September and just having one child out of the
[7:30]house. I, you know, at some point, my husband had to be like, he is still with us, you know,
[7:34]because I was, I was grieving in so much and crying so much. And I couldn't really articulate
[7:42]the sense of loss other than like something had been so like cut short, it felt.
[7:49]Yeah, no, it's, it is a shock to, it's a shock to your sister. I mean, I felt like I got a little
[7:54]taste of it when I got divorced. And I felt like it was a little bit ahead of the game because my
[7:59]kids had to go to their dads two nights a week. And it was so devastating to me in the beginning.
[8:06]And I would sit on my couch and look at my Apple TV of photos of them and like in a, you know,
[8:13]a photo thing, like the Ken Burns effect put to music of my Pandora. I mean, it was the worst
[8:18]possible thing to do to just sit on my couch and just weep at their baby pictures. But it was sort
[8:24]of good preparation. It was a little bit of a mini course in separation because until then,
[8:30]I wouldn't go on vacation. I wouldn't spend a night away from them. I wouldn't do it. I just
[8:35]because I had that working mom's guilt that I just wouldn't spend an hour away from them more
[8:41]or than I needed to because I was away from them when I went to work. So when I did get divorced
[8:47]and they had to spend those two nights out of the house, I had to process some of that separation
[8:52]or some of that grief. And so I think I was a little better maybe when they finally did have to leave
[8:58]the house. Maybe I don't know. I wasn't great. So I can't imagine how I would have been if I
[9:02]if I hadn't gone through that before. I am also divorced. And I had a similar thing where I felt
[9:07]like, well, maybe now because I've been so sad for years when they leave I'll be okay event.
[9:12]But I like you. Like I remember at the beginning just like sitting in my little boys, my youngest
[9:18]child's like in his little chair and his bedroom surrounded by all his stuffed animals. Just like
[9:23]in the dark like crying in my husband. My new husband was then not even my husband. He had to like
[9:28]pull me out of the chair and be like get out of his room. You have to come out now.
[9:36]And I had this I had this whole debate at the time. Like when your kids aren't there,
[9:40]should you leave their doors open or should you leave their bedroom doors closed? Which I still
[9:45]you know this weekend my kids are with their dad. Do I go in and close them? I don't know. I've
[9:49]decided to leave them open. That's been my. Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't know. It's still not easy. I don't
[9:54]know. I mean, I don't think I'll ever repurpose their rooms for instance. I mean, I can't I can't
[10:00]quite imagine it, but I don't know.
[10:01]I don't know.
[10:02]It doesn't get easier, I don't think.
[10:03]I mean, while my mom emails me, and it's like all your stuff
[10:07]is being thrown out for your child to go with.
[10:09]You don't come and pick it up.
[10:11]Like everything is different.
[10:13]There are no signs of my brother's room or mine.
[10:15]A lot of tricks, like she never has this.
[10:19]I guess everybody handles it differently,
[10:20]but that's true.
[10:21]Yeah.
[10:22]But one of the things that you wrote about in your bug
[10:25]so well was that feeling of just not having enough time,
[10:27]which I've sort of now inadvertently devoted my career
[10:31]to talking about.
[10:33]But you had this whole quote in the book.
[10:35]You said, I was so busy, and this is referring
[10:37]to when you were working on your TV show
[10:39]and your kids were little and everything.
[10:40]You wrote, I was so busy some of those days
[10:42]between mothering, writing on other people's TV shows
[10:45]and eventually running my own show,
[10:46]waking up at 4 a.m. to bake cupcakes from scratch
[10:49]so I didn't feel the burning shame of store-bought base goods
[10:52]that I would find myself standing halfway through peeing,
[10:55]declaring to no one as I yanked up my pants.
[10:57]I don't have time for this.
[10:58]I love that.
[11:01]I just love that, telling you about that time
[11:03]when you felt so like time-constricted
[11:05]and how it ends up passing.
[11:07]If it does.
[11:08]It does, finally.
[11:10]It does in a way that it's either that that you're
[11:15]for me anyway.
[11:16]I was either in that mode of everything had to be done
[11:19]all the time or nothingness.
[11:23]There's no in between.
[11:25]That's the hard part about it.
[11:27]Either everything has to be done now.
[11:30]Three kids have soccer tournaments, one in San Bernardino,
[11:33]one in Santa Barbara, one there, and there
[11:35]have to be 15 of me.
[11:37]Or they're all out of the house.
[11:41]The TV show didn't get picked up.
[11:43]The books going nowhere.
[11:45]There's no boyfriend.
[11:47]There's no nothing.
[11:48]And crickets.
[11:49]There's nothing at all.
[11:50]So it's Easter famine is how it seems to have gone for me.
[11:55]But during that time in my life, for me,
[11:58]it was this sense of not being able to do anything well enough.
[12:04]Just feeling like I was failing at everything.
[12:08]Just like I wasn't doing right by my kids,
[12:11]and I wasn't doing right by my job, and I wasn't doing right.
[12:15]And to add onto that, I write about two
[12:19]that my sister was very ill during that time.
[12:21]My sister ended up dying of brain tumor.
[12:25]And that lasted for a long time.
[12:26]And she had two young children as well.
[12:28]And so there was so many things
[12:31]pulling all at the same time that it's actually, at this point
[12:34]in my life, it's a bit of a blur, which
[12:36]was why I was glad that I was able to write about it.
[12:38]Because I was able to recall moments
[12:41]that I didn't think were in my head.
[12:43]And so that was nice to be able to write about that.
[12:46]I recommend it to people.
[12:47]Because you remember more than you think you do,
[12:51]I think because when I thought about my kids at that age,
[12:54]they were the twins where I think we're seven years old,
[12:56]maybe then, and date in my youngest was five.
[12:59]And I think of it all as a blur, because I was working so hard,
[13:02]and I was trying to care for my sister,
[13:04]and I was trying to do all of these things.
[13:05]And it's like, boy, I wish I could go back,
[13:08]because there was so much going on that I felt like I lost
[13:10]it a little bit.
[13:11]And the nice thing about writing about it
[13:13]is that you can retrieve it, and that there's more in there
[13:16]than you think there is.
[13:18]And so that was sort of the beauty of it for me.
[13:21]But yeah, that time was, you know,
[13:23]and I know it is for a lot of people,
[13:25]whether they're doing a job that is as consuming as that,
[13:29]just trying to get it all right with kids.
[13:32]I mean, it's impossible.
[13:34]You know, it just feels, it just feels impossible.
[13:36]And it just feels like you're letting everybody down.
[13:41]And that's what I heard from my friends at the time.
[13:45]And I still hear it.
[13:46]I mean, I still, but everybody just thinks
[13:48]they're just always not quite getting it right.
[13:50]And that was sort of the feeling of the hamster
[13:53]on the wheel and not getting the right, the uniform.
[13:56]And there were the emails from the coaches of,
[13:59]you know, just all that stuff.
[14:00]And I'm, you know, I'm a little neurotic
[14:03]and a little bit of an overachiever and a little bit,
[14:07]because I was such a near-do-well earlier in my life.
[14:10]But now I don't know what happened to me
[14:12]that suddenly I just want to do it all right.
[14:14]I don't want my kids to be embarrassed
[14:18]and not show up with the right thing.
[14:19]At the school, you know, and I already was going to school
[14:24]and feeling like I hadn't been around very much.
[14:28]And so there were the moms there
[14:30]that I felt like I was getting the side eye a little bit,
[14:32]because, you know, I hadn't been to,
[14:34]I didn't make it to the concert the morning before,
[14:37]or, you know, we were filming the day before.
[14:40]And so I didn't show up.
[14:41]And I was getting a little bit of a,
[14:43]I would get comments like, oh my God, I, you know,
[14:46]I don't know how you do it.
[14:48]You work so much.
[14:49]I could never miss one of my kids' concerts.
[14:51]Good for you.
[14:53]Like, I don't think you mean good for me.
[14:56]You mean something else.
[14:58]But, you know, there's those mommy wars that go on,
[15:01]which we're frustrating to,
[15:02]because we should be on the same team.
[15:03]But it's a tricky time for everyone,
[15:05]for those moms too, you know,
[15:07]who are fighting their own battles,
[15:08]which is why they say things like that.
[15:10]I was gonna say, you know,
[15:11]it's the most insecure of all the moms
[15:13]who feel the need to lash out at everybody else, right?
[15:16]If you're like, of course,
[15:17]with how you're parenting,
[15:18]you're not the one who's like wagging your finger at somebody's,
[15:22]right, something or other.
[15:23]Of course, of course, of course.
[15:26]And yeah, we're all suffering in our ways.
[15:29]But the thing is, is that despite how every mother
[15:32]or parent really thinks they're failing,
[15:35]most kids turn out okay.
[15:36]Do you know what I mean?
[15:37]Like, I'm sure your kids are great.
[15:39]Yes.
[15:40]Most kids are, yes.
[15:41]They just turn out fine no matter what.
[15:43]So it's really this like,
[15:45]putting yourself through this blender of shame and self-doubt
[15:49]and the kids are fine.
[15:51]Like, the kids are fine without us.
[15:53]I don't know.
[15:54]Sometimes I just think this whole,
[15:55]it's like a whole mind game of moms and parents, you know?
[16:00]There's no doubt about it.
[16:02]And like you said, you know,
[16:03]with your mom, you know, cleaning out,
[16:05]you know, throwing your junk in the garbage,
[16:07]you know, this preciousness about parenting,
[16:09]I think is new.
[16:10]And you're right, my kids are great.
[16:12]You know, and my kids, you know,
[16:14]in terms of my worry and my,
[16:17]all of my over-rockness about the things,
[16:20]they were really glad I wasn't at school all the time.
[16:24]And when I, when I would show up at school
[16:28]and make sure that they saw me so that they,
[16:30]you know, they, I could check in like,
[16:32]hey, I'm here, I am here, I am,
[16:33]they were horrified that I was making my presence
[16:35]no, so yeah, I think that the kids are fine.
[16:40]And it certainly is all on us.
[16:42]There's no doubt about it.
[16:43]Even though you know that it's impossible
[16:45]to like put that into practice,
[16:46]like you can do something intellectually.
[16:48]And yet I'm still gonna go to,
[16:50]if I ever get out of here and go back to a kid's assembly,
[16:52]I am still gonna be standing up in my row,
[16:55]like maybe,
[16:56]maniacally waving at my child to get that recognition.
[17:00]Of course so.
[17:01]So tell me a little more about the book
[17:05]you had written for TV.
[17:06]You have come up with, first of all,
[17:08]how did you get?
[17:08]I know we don't have that much more time left,
[17:09]but you're like this major TV person.
[17:12]How did you become, how did you start your own show?
[17:15]And then like how did you accomplish that?
[17:17]That's a whole different type of creativity
[17:19]than what ended up in the book,
[17:20]which is also super creative and awesome.
[17:23]I was an actress first.
[17:24]That's how I started.
[17:26]When I was a kid, I did commercials.
[17:28]So I did that for a while until I just,
[17:31]I mean, this is the dumbest story ever,
[17:33]but I didn't go to college.
[17:35]I didn't set myself to do anything real
[17:38]and just sort of was this flaky act
[17:41]just bumming around in Los Angeles.
[17:42]And my work just dried up completely
[17:45]when I was about 30 years old.
[17:46]And it was sort of like,
[17:48]oh, I don't know how to do anything else.
[17:52]And so I went to a psychic who said,
[17:55]if you act, you'll be moderately successful.
[17:58]But if you write,
[18:00]you will be successful beyond your wildest dreams.
[18:03]And I thought, oh, that seems so much harder than acting.
[18:07]But that's what I was broke.
[18:10]And I had sold everything that I earned
[18:13]during my acting days.
[18:14]And so I wrote a play.
[18:16]And at the time, I was earning money typing.
[18:20]The only subject I was ever good at in school was typing.
[18:23]And so I was typing scripts for friends of mine.
[18:26]And I wrote a play and I passed it
[18:27]to these writer friends of mine,
[18:28]who I was typing scripts for.
[18:29]And they liked it.
[18:31]And they put it up in a theater here in Los Angeles.
[18:34]They produced it.
[18:35]And they invited all of their show busy friends.
[18:37]And I got agents.
[18:38]And I got TV jobs.
[18:40]And that was sort of the short fairy tale story
[18:43]of how it started.
[18:44]And a lot, I got a lot more yeses as a writer
[18:47]than I did as an actress.
[18:48]And fortunately, and at first, I was very resistant.
[18:50]Because I was really like, no, no, no, no.
[18:52]It was not, you know, and I thought, well,
[18:53]I'll just write until I can get right myself acting jobs.
[18:56]And I was really reluctant.
[18:58]And now I'm so very grateful.
[19:02]And it's been a great career.
[19:04]I mean, I've written on great shows with really wonderful people.
[19:08]And then started creating my own shows.
[19:10]And that's sort of what I'm doing now.
[19:12]I'm doing a pilot now with Kiris Etzweck.
[19:14]And you know, if I ever get out of my house,
[19:16]and which is about empty nest,
[19:17]and which is sort of just all my world now and on my mind.
[19:21]But yeah, it's just a lot of luck and a lot of people
[19:25]that have supported me and been very kind
[19:28]and given me a lot of opportunities.
[19:30]So as it goes in this town in particular,
[19:33]that's sort of the way it happens.
[19:34]Wow.
[19:35]That's a great story.
[19:36]So now we can all drop out of college and try to put plays on
[19:42]and type our way to success.
[19:43]And we think that it worked out that way
[19:44]because there were very few things that I could do.
[19:47]So it's a stroke of luck, for sure.
[19:49]And how does it feel having this book come out in the world
[19:52]particularly now?
[19:53]And how is it different than when you do a TV show
[19:56]and then you watch it?
[19:57]Like this is a totally different type of medium.
[20:00]How does it feel like that it's like one big release?
[20:02]And now, you know, it's now it's, it's, it's, I mean, this is it's so
[20:08]personal. This book, obviously. So it's very vulnerable for sure. It takes a
[20:12]long time, you know, TV is so instant. It's instant. And you, you know, you
[20:16]put an idea out there. And you sort of, I, I ride it one week and it's, we're
[20:21]shooting it the next week. And it's on television. So, so it's a little
[20:25]bit more of a machine television. And it's a little bit, it comes and goes.
[20:28]And it's, if it's success, great. And you can sort of, you know, push it aside,
[20:32]you're on to the next thing. This, it's a little bit more nerve-wracking because
[20:36]so much time goes into it. And then there it is. And it's out the world. And that
[20:41]it's coming out in the world during this really strange time, you know, is on, you
[20:47]know, it's strange to be doing promotion and self-promotion when people are having
[20:52]such a hard time. You know, so even putting things out on social media and stuff
[20:56]feels contrary to what I should be doing. You know, I have to sort of say it
[21:01]with like, I know this is weird. And if you want to buy my book and, you know, I
[21:06]mean, I want, it feels a strange time. You'd be sort of tuning my own horn or
[21:10]even talking about anything other than the suffering that's going on and what
[21:14]people are going through. So it, it is a very mixed bag right now. And it's very
[21:19]strange. But it's been a great experience. And it's been a sort of a completely
[21:22]creative experience because where television is so collaborative, a book is such a
[21:27]personal individual experience. And all the people I've found that I've worked
[21:32]with, it's all about sort of supporting one person's vision where in television,
[21:36]it's just much more collaborative. It's about it's a group effort and the more
[21:39]people that join that experience, the more it becomes everybody's vision, which is
[21:42]great too. You know, it's just a different, it's just a different experience.
[21:46]Well, I'll say this about your feelings about self-promotion. I think your book will
[21:52]help people. And I think that as the author of the book, you should not feel bad
[21:57]trying to get it to the people who need it because that's probably part of why
[22:01]you wrote it to begin with. I mean, probably a lot of it was for your own what you
[22:05]needed to do for you. But now that it's here, I mean, there are people that I
[22:09]feel really need to read this book. And I think it's going to be entertaining
[22:12]people and it's going to be helping people. And if you don't mention them to
[22:15]out there, then those people aren't helped. So I think as opposed to looking at
[22:19]a self-promotion, it's more like, it's like you have a bandaid and somebody
[22:23]out there is bleeding. You wouldn't withhold the bandaids because you have to
[22:26]charge a dollar to buy a bandaid or something. Do you know what I mean? I don't know.
[22:29]Yeah, well, I appreciate that. And that would be my hope that it would lighten things
[22:34]up a little bit. That would be my greatest wish for it certainly. I appreciate that.
[22:38]I think storytelling is one of the most important ways people connect and
[22:43]people are dying for connection right now in every way. So yeah, in that way, I
[22:46]think it's well-timed. So thank you very much. I appreciate that.
[22:50]Do you have any author advice like aspiring author advice now that you've finished this project?
[22:55]Well, I think it's my advice for any kind of writing and it's what I tell
[22:58]aspiring television writers to. And the thing that's really just worked for me from the
[23:03]beginning, which is just to be authentic and tell you on story. I just, you know, because when people
[23:10]are authentic and find their voice, I always find those stories the most compelling. So
[23:16]and that's just, I could just say that that's what's worked for me. And so that's that's the
[23:20]only advice that I can give. And honing your typing skills also important.
[23:24]That typing is key. It's brought me a long way. I'll say that. I wish I could remember my typing
[23:31]teacher's name. I would love that person, but I can't. That would have been the shining moment for
[23:37]that TV teacher. You have to go look it up. I will. I'll find that. Yeah, I'll do that today.
[23:43]That will be my today's project. Perfect. All right. Well, thank you so much.
[23:48]Kerry was really nice chatting with you and maybe one of these will meet in person.
[23:52]That would be great. I would enjoy that. Thanks so much. All right. Thank you. Bye bye. Take care.
[23:56]Bye. You've been listening to moms and have time to read books with Zibi Owens.
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