Mallory Kasdan, ELLA
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[1:38]I'm here today with Mallory Kastin,
[1:39]who's the author of Ella,
[1:40]a hilarious smart children's book published
[1:43]by Viking children's books.
[1:44]Ella made entertainment weekly's top 10 must list
[1:47]and was featured in time,
[1:48]bogue at the LA Times and the New York Post.
[1:51]Mallory is the host and producer of milk podcast,
[1:53]moms I'd like to know.
[1:55]She also hosts the podcast How to Raise a Parent
[1:57]from Slate Studios and Dairy Pure
[1:59]and Coffee and Crams from Slate Studios and Target.
[2:02]She's a professional voiceover actor for TV and radio.
[2:05]Mallory has contributed to the Washington Post
[2:07]and has produced arts and culture pieces for public radio.
[2:09]Kavellar called the Milk Podcast,
[2:11]one of the 11 parenting podcasts you need in your life.
[2:14]My podcast is on that list too.
[2:15]Anyway, she currently lives in Brooklyn with her family.
[2:19]Welcome Mallory, thanks for coming in mom.
[2:20]Don't have time to read books.
[2:22]Thank you for having me.
[2:23]It's my pleasure.
[2:23]This is so fun.
[2:24]At first, I only knew you because of your amazing podcast.
[2:28]Milk mothers, I'd like to know.
[2:29]Thank you.
[2:30]Now you have this children's book
[2:32]that I somehow didn't know about that came out five years ago,
[2:35]which thank God you sent it to me
[2:36]because now my daughter is obsessed as you saw the stairs
[2:39]and it's so great.
[2:41]So I want to talk to you about all of it.
[2:43]So thank you, excited.
[2:45]So tell me about Ella, this book.
[2:46]What's it about?
[2:47]What inspired you to write a children's book?
[2:49]So Ella is a parody of Elloise at the Plaza.
[2:54]And I had a six year old.
[2:56]This was a few years ago.
[2:58]My daughter was six at the time
[3:00]and I, we were big fans of Elloise
[3:02]and I grew up loving it and thinking
[3:04]what an amazing life to live in New York City
[3:06]and live in a hotel and have that adventure.
[3:09]And then it was my 40th birthday
[3:10]and I went to a hotel in Williamsburg
[3:13]that had just opened with my husband.
[3:15]We had a party for me.
[3:16]It was really nice.
[3:17]And when it gets at home, so Zoey was six at the time
[3:20]and Miles was like two.
[3:22]And so we were just so psyched to be like,
[3:24]getting out, having a party, being in a hotel.
[3:27]And it was such a sort of, it was very Brooklyn.
[3:30]It was Brooklyn 2000, I think it was 2012.
[3:33]It was very hip.
[3:34]There was no sign.
[3:35]It was super groovy.
[3:37]Everything was like reclaimed wood and brick.
[3:40]And it was an old factory that they made
[3:41]into a hotel.
[3:42]It's the wife in case you're wondering.
[3:43]And I was just picturing Zoey there
[3:46]and seeing her scootering all around the lobby
[3:48]and going, oh my God, this is so,
[3:50]first of all, not really a place for kids.
[3:52]So I was like really glad that she wasn't there
[3:54]but thinking how funny it would be
[3:55]if she was there sort of mucking up this like hipster haven.
[3:59]And so I was like, and then I had a little light bulb
[4:01]and I was like, oh, this is totally where Eloise would live.
[4:04]I mean, you know, she wouldn't live in Manhattan anymore
[4:06]because this was the moment of like Brooklyn is the new Manhattan.
[4:10]It was getting to that sort of fever pitch
[4:11]of Brooklyn as a verb, as a noun.
[4:13]It was Brooklyn as a concept as opposed to place to live.
[4:16]So I figured, oh yeah.
[4:18]And then it just started like going off in my head
[4:20]all these ideas, you know, I knew she'd have a Manny,
[4:23]instead of a nanny, I knew she'd have a mom
[4:25]who was, you know, Eloise's mom is quite absent,
[4:27]you know, probably not in the best way.
[4:29]In the most healthy way and I figured
[4:31]Eloise's mom would be, you know, a director
[4:33]or an actress director and sort of just be parenting
[4:35]from Europe or parenting from the set, you know.
[4:38]And so just kind of all came together like that.
[4:40]And I went home and I basically wrote it
[4:42]and I sent it to a friend of mine
[4:43]who has been sort of a guardian angel in my career.
[4:47]And I was like, do you think this is funny?
[4:49]Like, do you think this is a good idea?
[4:51]And she was like, this is great.
[4:53]I want you to send it to this woman.
[4:54]A friend of mine is an agent and I love it.
[4:56]And I was like, okay, I thought it was a good idea.
[4:58]So it turned out to be a pretty good idea.
[5:00]It was just one of those good ideas, I think.
[5:03]It's not just a good idea.
[5:04]It was also executed very well.
[5:05]Thank you.
[5:06]I mean, a lot of people have the ideas
[5:08]and then they don't go home and actually write it.
[5:09]They're like, wouldn't this be cool?
[5:10]Like yesterday I had like three different ideas,
[5:12]but I'm not gonna do anything with anything with anything.
[5:13]Well, right.
[5:14]I mean, I think sometimes,
[5:16]because similarly I've had a bunch of ideas since.
[5:19]And yeah, I mean, sometimes not to say
[5:21]they weren't that good.
[5:22]I don't know how much more ideas this is.
[5:24]It's kind of like how do you,
[5:25]this one happened to be, it was an easy kind of opportunity
[5:28]for me to pay homage to something I really loved as a kid,
[5:32]think about my own daughter as that age.
[5:34]And then also kind of make fun of Brooklyn a lot
[5:37]and just sort of the preciousness of what was happening
[5:39]there at that time and place like,
[5:41]oh, come on, everybody, this is like ridiculous.
[5:43]And yet like that's my life.
[5:45]Like I like, that's my parenting life
[5:46]is I live in a community not to similar to Williamsburg.
[5:50]I, you know, a lot of those things were very funny
[5:52]because they're true.
[5:53]So that was like, the goal is mocking it in a way
[5:57]that other people could relate to.
[5:59]Or people couldn't relate to it all
[6:00]because they don't live in New York.
[6:01]And they're like, who the hell lives in a hotel?
[6:02]Who the hell lives in an apartment?
[6:03]Who the hell like, how do you guys live stacked
[6:05]on top of each other?
[6:06]That kind of, you know,
[6:07]I was hoping that people could see it
[6:08]the way that I saw Eloise.
[6:11]Right.
[6:12]Did people really say that?
[6:13]Did you hear that feedback?
[6:14]That's the shame if that's true.
[6:16]I mean, it was so no, but what's interesting
[6:18]is that they didn't want to label it Brooklyn.
[6:21]The publisher didn't want to make it New York.
[6:23]They wanted it to be a little bit more vague as a city.
[6:26]It could be a hotel in many cities.
[6:28]It could be, you know, San Francisco, could be Portland,
[6:31]it could be Seattle, it could be Miami, it could be,
[6:34]you know, Copenhagen, that I said that right?
[6:36]Hey again, it could be Barcelona.
[6:38]You know, I think that they were trying to make it less specific.
[6:41]But I knew it was New York
[6:42]and my illustrator knew it was New York.
[6:44]And so that's why I love it
[6:46]because it's, you know, it is.
[6:48]It's my New York and so I still, I love it.
[6:50]And how did you team up with your illustrator?
[6:53]So this was so cool.
[6:54]I, you know, it was my first book.
[6:56]So I didn't have like a ton of,
[6:58]you don't have a ton of like, pull, you know, I should say.
[7:03]And so when you are a writer and not a writer, illustrator,
[7:07]you don't really have a lot of choice
[7:08]in who your illustrator is.
[7:10]Like unless there's something that you're attached to,
[7:12]like your famous or you have some other kind of connections
[7:15]to other illustrators.
[7:17]But I kind of had like some kind of thing in my contract
[7:20]and I was like, I get approval or something like that.
[7:23]But I didn't really have any say.
[7:25]But I suggested a bunch of illustrators
[7:27]that I loved including Myra Kamen,
[7:28]which was like ridiculous because that's not happening.
[7:31]But again, Dream Bay, why not?
[7:33]She's the best person that I know who is an illustrator.
[7:36]I admire her.
[7:37]But then I was on the subway
[7:39]and I saw this, you know, those MTA illustrators
[7:42]and they have those like kind of murals on the train.
[7:44]I saw one and it was this artist Marcus Chin.
[7:47]And I was like, that's so beautiful.
[7:50]It was a bunch of people walking in Grand Central
[7:53]and they were kind of like traipsing through Grand Central
[7:55]and they had shopping bags.
[7:57]And there it was a little bit like surrealist.
[7:59]Like they had like their hats were like also corners
[8:02]of the, you know, cornices on the ceiling.
[8:04]Like it was just this really beautiful portrayal
[8:07]of Grand Central station and people walking through
[8:09]and just being so like New York and fabulous.
[8:11]And they were moving and they were fashionable.
[8:13]And I was like, I wrote it down.
[8:14]I was like, that is beautiful.
[8:16]And then they picked him.
[8:17]I mean, it was amazing.
[8:18]It was like, I couldn't have, I couldn't have been happier.
[8:21]That's great.
[8:22]It really was awesome.
[8:23]And he was perfect for the job.
[8:24]And he is a lovely person.
[8:26]And, you know, we got to, we really want
[8:28]supposed to talk.
[8:29]I think they didn't want you.
[8:30]They don't want you to interface.
[8:31]They want him to have his own perspective on the character
[8:34]and for him to come up with what the character looks like
[8:37]and feels like and all the other components.
[8:39]But we did talk and we just like immediately hit it off.
[8:43]And I gave him a couple of like thoughts
[8:45]and one of which is like my daughter has a giant rainbow
[8:48]in her room painted on the wall.
[8:50]And so like I thought like, because that was just a dream
[8:52]of mine when I was a kid.
[8:53]So I did that for my daughter.
[8:55]And then so that went into the book.
[8:57]That was the part of the book that both my son
[9:00]and my daughter, the five and six year old,
[9:01]were pointing to and being like, why can't we have them?
[9:03]I'm like, no, you can't have them.
[9:05]You haven't been doing that.
[9:06]Anyway, they love that.
[9:07]So I was actually going to mention that detail.
[9:09]Yeah, well, so that was something that made it
[9:10]into the book from my life.
[9:12]And then obviously because I wrote the book a lot of it
[9:15]reflected behaviors and things at the time that my daughter
[9:17]would say or do.
[9:19]So yeah, so the lot of them made it in, which was fun.
[9:21]And then he got to reconfigure anything he wanted to do.
[9:26]I mean, he made the protagonist like a little girl of color,
[9:30]which was completely on his creation, which was awesome.
[9:34]And so that was really cool.
[9:35]And that's when it's really interesting
[9:38]to see how an illustrator plays into like bringing
[9:43]a world alive.
[9:44]Like I was so jealous.
[9:45]I was like, oh, I wish I could draw.
[9:47]Like I just, I wish I could draw.
[9:48]I mean, it would be so neat.
[9:50]It's really cool.
[9:51]I would like to have same, especially with kids' books
[9:54]because sometimes, especially with picture books,
[9:57]you need to be able to see a feeling.
[9:59]You can't.
[10:00]and just write it always.
[10:01]So anyway, I really respect that skill
[10:04]that I saw in Marcus.
[10:04]And he's lovely.
[10:06]So I'm Marcus, obviously.
[10:08]So let's talk about your podcast in a little bit.
[10:10]Sure.
[10:11]And how this all fit in with your core.
[10:13]Correct.
[10:13]So why don't we just go through the brief trajectory?
[10:16]OK.
[10:16]What happened after, let's do a breeze through since college,
[10:20]say?
[10:21]OK.
[10:22]OK.
[10:22]So I came to New York because, you know, of course,
[10:25]like I always wanted to live here.
[10:27]Where are you from?
[10:27]I'm from Pittsburgh, PA.
[10:29]So, like, small city, sort of suburban, but also city.
[10:34]I've heard of Pittsburgh.
[10:35]Yeah, you've heard of it.
[10:35]Yeah, it's cool.
[10:36]I mean, it's very exciting to have actually come back now.
[10:38]It was a really lovely place to grow up.
[10:40]But I really wanted to.
[10:41]And then I went to college in Vermont.
[10:42]And I was really ready to come to New York after that,
[10:44]even though that was beautiful.
[10:45]And I loved it.
[10:46]It was great.
[10:46]It was like, let's get in there.
[10:49]You know, let's get in there.
[10:49]I was interested in media.
[10:51]I was interested in publishing.
[10:52]I was interested in TV.
[10:53]I wanted to work for David Letterman.
[10:55]It was like all I wanted to do.
[10:56]It was the only job I could envision
[10:58]was being a page or being like an intern at Letterman.
[11:01]I didn't get that job.
[11:02]So, yeah, I came to New York.
[11:03]I got a job in publishing.
[11:04]I worked for a Hyperion.
[11:06]That was my first job.
[11:07]I was a publicity assistant.
[11:09]Then I got, I went to Viking Penguin, and I was a publicist.
[11:12]And then I decided, I love books way too much
[11:15]to keep working in publishing truthfully.
[11:18]And I left publishing.
[11:19]And sort of at the same time, I was discovering an interest
[11:21]in doing voiceovers, partially because at Penguin,
[11:25]they had me doing publicity for Penguin Audio Books.
[11:27]And this was when audio books were all on tapes.
[11:29]And then like dating myself, but they were on tapes.
[11:32]And they were on CDs.
[11:34]And the authors were very, like people loved authors,
[11:38]or I mean, narrators, or hated them.
[11:39]It was like we would get letters from all these people
[11:41]that would say, I can't believe that Stephen King's books
[11:44]are now being read by so and so, because they used to be,
[11:47]I'm just using that as an example, because I can't remember
[11:49]exactly who the actors were, the people loved so much,
[11:52]the narrators.
[11:52]But I thought, oh, this is so cool.
[11:54]The idea of narration.
[11:55]I started doing it a little bit at the New York Public Library
[11:58]has a division for the blind downtown on 20th Street.
[12:01]So I started like honing that a little bit.
[12:03]And then I was looking around to figure out
[12:05]if I could make a jump to start doing voiceovers.
[12:07]So I made a demo tape, it took a class.
[12:10]And I got pretty, I mean, pretty quickly got an agent
[12:14]and started working.
[12:15]I mean, it was weird.
[12:16]It was like a weird niche thing.
[12:18]Because I think like, I had a lot of success pretty quickly.
[12:21]And it's not like that all the time.
[12:23]But for me, it was the right, I think it was the right focus.
[12:26]Because it was so narrow and so weird and random.
[12:28]It wasn't like, I want to be an actor.
[12:29]I was like, I want to be a voice actor.
[12:31]And so it just happened for me.
[12:33]I don't know.
[12:33]I had the right combination of luck and I guess talent.
[12:37]And I was pushy.
[12:38]And I was like, this is what I want to do.
[12:39]So I left publishing, started doing voiceovers
[12:42]as like, you know, freelance.
[12:43]But you're kind of like being an actor.
[12:45]This was the late 90s.
[12:46]I was like, I was busy.
[12:48]Like, I had auditions every day.
[12:49]And I was booking, I mean, I was like working.
[12:51]I was running on the city.
[12:52]It was really fun.
[12:53]And I worked for a friend of mine.
[12:55]She became my friend, a PR person.
[12:56]And I was like, a freelance publicist for her.
[12:59]She had an office in Soho.
[13:00]It was so fun.
[13:01]Like, that was like the best, like late 90s.
[13:03]Like, there was money everywhere.
[13:05]The internet was starting.
[13:06]Every company was like paying people to, you know,
[13:08]advertise and hire publicists and internet parties.
[13:12]And it was just a great time.
[13:14]Pre 9-11, pre-kids.
[13:16]And I just was having a great old time.
[13:18]So then I, what happened after that?
[13:21]Yeah, I was doing that.
[13:22]So I was signed with an agent in 1998,
[13:24]started working, not my sad card.
[13:25]And then I was just doing that.
[13:27]I was a voice actor.
[13:28]And so in the meantime, one of the things I loved about publishing
[13:31]was I loved taking authors to public radio.
[13:36]I loved going to, at the time, it was WNYC.
[13:38]They were down on Center Street.
[13:40]It was like, you'd go to Leonard Lopez.
[13:42]It was awesome.
[13:43]The green room was always just like so interesting.
[13:45]So many, like, Lou Reed would be there.
[13:47]And like, it was just the most awesome people being interviewed
[13:50]for a couple of different public radio shows.
[13:52]And I always just loved that piece of publishing.
[13:55]I loved the author interview part.
[13:57]So that was just like kind of a side thing.
[13:59]I always loved.
[14:00]So I started trying to get into radio and making just like pieces.
[14:04]And this was around the time like this American life
[14:06]was starting and it was all about like the audio,
[14:08]documentary and all that kind of stuff.
[14:10]So I was making stuff.
[14:12]I started, I went to a couple of conferences
[14:14]and I started making pieces and pitching them to,
[14:17]I'm just going on and on.
[14:18]If you want to call me off ever, just do it.
[14:20]I'm sorry, because it's me.
[14:21]I love it.
[14:22]I'm really interested in this.
[14:23]OK, so I went to this third coast conference,
[14:27]which is in Chicago, which is like,
[14:28]it was a more of an audio documentary conference.
[14:31]Now it's probably more of a podcast conference.
[14:33]But this was like pre-podcast.
[14:34]This was like 2001, 2002, around that.
[14:37]And I just loved all of the earnestness of like story core
[14:42]and all of these kind of like using the voice
[14:44]and using storytelling as an art to convey a feeling.
[14:49]Just always loved it.
[14:49]So I made like, I don't know, eight to 10 pieces.
[14:54]And I was working steadily pitching them
[14:56]to Studio 360, which is an arts and culture show
[14:59]that's almost, that's ending soon, but it was a big show.
[15:03]And to NPR news, I did a few pieces for them.
[15:05]And they were all like, I knew interesting artists.
[15:08]And they were like, I was like, this person is really
[15:09]fascinating and I'm going to do a piece about them.
[15:12]So there was always like the arts and culture component
[15:14]of like my interest.
[15:15]That was where my interest lied, lied, lied.
[15:18]And yes, it was such a great thing.
[15:20]Like that time was so great.
[15:21]I was like, doing public radio pieces,
[15:23]earning money from doing voiceover was great.
[15:26]It was a great moment also.
[15:27]And then I had kids and not that that wasn't a great thing,
[15:32]but I kept doing the voiceover work pretty consistently
[15:35]right after Zoey was born.
[15:37]And that was awesome because I could get out of the house.
[15:39]Sometimes I could bring her sometimes I could leave her
[15:40]or the sitter.
[15:41]I had earning power, but I wasn't like dying.
[15:44]I didn't have to like deal with a lot of things
[15:46]that people women have to deal with when they go back
[15:49]to work after they have kids.
[15:50]So it was a relatively smooth transition
[15:52]because I had the ability to stay in that game.
[15:55]But unfortunately, a lot of the other creative stuff
[15:57]kind of went downhill from that.
[15:58]I couldn't maintain the brain power
[16:01]to continue to pitch ideas or to write really.
[16:04]I just kind of like, I had always written sort of blog pieces
[16:07]and that kind of stuff for myself.
[16:08]But the idea of even that was just too much
[16:12]was just do the voiceover work and be with my kid
[16:15]and be a mom, like that was totally enough for me.
[16:17]And it was great.
[16:18]And so and then I had my second kid
[16:21]and then that everything kind of went a little bit haywire
[16:24]because that's hard the second one.
[16:26]And I think at that time that was when I thought, well,
[16:30]I really need to keep get back to the creative work.
[16:33]Like even though I was so exhausted and he was a terrible sleeper
[16:36]and just it was really tough.
[16:38]I knew that I was feeling that pull back to writing
[16:42]and creating something beyond just doing the ads,
[16:45]which by the way were great.
[16:46]I never wanted them to stop.
[16:47]But it was like, you know, it's not like mine.
[16:50]It's, I'd work for other people and I get paid and that's awesome.
[16:52]But that's when I started to feel like I wanted to get back
[16:55]to doing something.
[16:56]And I think that's when the seed of the podcast started
[16:59]takes such a long winding road to get there.
[17:00]But that's when the podcast kind of started.
[17:02]And it was a lot of women I had met doing voiceovers
[17:05]because there's so many interesting people
[17:07]who are musicians or actors or who are other kinds of artists
[17:12]who I met who were like all struggling with this concept of like,
[17:16]how do you keep creating and how do you keep, you know,
[17:18]being available and how do you juggle
[17:20]and the same conversations everyone's having in every field.
[17:23]This was just a lot of creative people.
[17:24]So I decided I really wanted to talk to those people.
[17:29]And I came up with this idea of milk
[17:31]because I was reading Goon Squad.
[17:34]How does what's the title of that book, Jennifer Egan?
[17:36]A visit from the Goon Squad.
[17:37]A visit from the Goon Squad.
[17:38]Okay, this is from the Goon Squad.
[17:39]Such a great book.
[17:40]And I read it and I saw her speak
[17:42]at the 92nd Street Y and I was like,
[17:44]oh, that's a mom I'd like to know.
[17:46]Like I felt like her writing in that particular book
[17:48]was so infused with like the parental,
[17:52]like it was such a mother.
[17:54]She was such a mom voice in that the way she treated those
[17:57]characters, it felt like a mother was writing it.
[17:59]And then I just started to notice all of the, you know,
[18:01]and then I read a couple of Danny Shapiro's books
[18:03]and then Meg Wallitzer, I read the 10-year nap
[18:06]and I was like, oh, like there's, you know,
[18:08]this is what's, cause I was coming out
[18:10]of those little, little, little kid years.
[18:12]And I was like, what is the creative experience
[18:14]of being a mother beyond the baby experience?
[18:17]Like once you get out of that fog,
[18:18]what do you, how do you, what do you do with it?
[18:20]So that was the other seed.
[18:22]And then I was like, I'm just gonna,
[18:23]I want to meet these people.
[18:24]I want to talk to Jennifer Egan.
[18:27]I yell at Waldman, you know, Meg Wallitzer.
[18:29]I mean, I haven't.
[18:30]But you know what I mean?
[18:31]But it's like, that was like how it started.
[18:34]And I was like, all these moms I'd like to know.
[18:36]And so eventually I was like, I have to just start.
[18:39]I have to just do it, you know, still doing the voice
[18:41]over work.
[18:42]So this was a few years ago.
[18:43]It was like 2016, 2000, late 2015.
[18:47]And in between there, my book came out.
[18:49]So like the 2012 period of like fertile mind,
[18:52]when I started to like get my mind back,
[18:54]that's when I had the idea for the book.
[18:56]And then that process took from like,
[18:58]I don't know, I think I signed the deal in 2013
[19:00]and it came out in 2015.
[19:02]So I was a little circuitous in my journey there,
[19:04]but that's what I've been doing.
[19:05]So, you know, and in the meantime, I've still,
[19:08]you know, I still do the voice over work.
[19:10]I have my show, I've done a few other hosted,
[19:12]like I've hosted a few other podcasts.
[19:14]Now people now come to me to, you know,
[19:16]host their parenting podcasts for different brands.
[19:19]And yeah, and so that's what I do.
[19:22]And my show is really fun because as you know,
[19:24]it's so great to invite people over to your house
[19:26]and get to ask them questions.
[19:28]Like it's an amazing opportunity.
[19:30]Like it's so cool.
[19:31]And so I've been loving doing that.
[19:32]And it's really great.
[19:34]But I, you know, it's a lot of work.
[19:35]And so I admire you so much because you crank,
[19:39]like you crank girl and it's really impressive
[19:42]because I know it's a lot of work, preparation,
[19:44]actual interviews, reading the books.
[19:46]I mean, I see like a lot of books there
[19:47]that I need to read for next week
[19:49]because I have one thing that's coming in my show.
[19:51]The Madeline Levine is coming to,
[19:53]I'm interviewing.
[19:54]Yeah, me speak.
[19:55]Okay, okay, cool.
[19:56]We should just like set up a scene now.
[19:58]We should.
[19:59]We should.
[20:00]So yeah, so I feel like that's kind of my journey.
[20:02]I'm actually thinking now how much more efficient it would be for authors,
[20:06]if a bunch of podcasters had a space together and they could go from one show to the next.
[20:12]It's true. Well, they do that by phone. They do those like radio satellites.
[20:14]Yeah. You don't do anything by phone, do you? You do it. You try to do it in the course.
[20:18]I did a few of those at the beginning. Yeah, it's good.
[20:20]It's not as like a waste end. And also I feel that when they're offered like that,
[20:24]hey, would you like to have a 20-minute slot in this marathon day?
[20:27]Right. Then you just get very
[20:29]medium trained. Yeah, right. It's not as like you answer. So I don't feel like I'm really
[20:33]learning more than I would like reading a little more about the author versus like being with them
[20:38]or even making sure something just makes such a difference. Or at least having more time
[20:43]where you know you're not like in a factory lineup of. Right. So forget it. Forget it.
[20:47]No, but I hear you in my podcast. No, no. It's less than I have to leave my house and you'd have to leave
[20:51]your house. Yeah. To people. No, they like I like when they come to your house. No, I like it too.
[20:55]All right, forget it. Scratch that. No, it's good idea. But efficiency is good.
[20:59]I mean, and I think that's so interesting too because when I
[21:01]have authors now, I know because those early days when I was a book publicist and I knew like
[21:06]that's all we did. We set up their book tours. Now granted, it's different now. It's not quite
[21:09]the same, but it's still like you have to get the town cars and you have to get the,
[21:12]you know, the venue for the event and then you have to make sure people come to the event.
[21:15]I mean, in a lot of ways, it really is sort of the same. They're going through the same thing.
[21:19]And now I think it's tough for authors because there's so much more pressure for them to
[21:23]promote themselves. And I mean, I think that's okay. It gives them more agency, but it's also
[21:29]challenging because there's so much out there. It's like so much content all the time. Don't you feel like,
[21:33]yes, I'm sure authors and like they appreciate so much really having the time in this
[21:40]space to talk about their book. Why did you write this? Like not to have the experience of like
[21:44]the 10 minute, you know, cranking out of the of the questions. Yeah, I mean, because it's not always
[21:50]about just the book. No. I mean, everybody has such an interesting story of what you think. I mean,
[21:54]that's what I mean, we're, we're, but like so interested. Totally. Totally. Is there anything you
[21:59]have like taken away from any of your interviews that you feel like, oh, this is the one thing,
[22:03]like I have to keep in mind or it really helped me or something. I guess what I try to do is like
[22:10]stay within my curiosity realm. Like I think that's been a challenge. So the first season of the show,
[22:16]I was just really trying to get, it was kind of experimental. Like anyone that I thought was
[22:21]interesting, I'd invite on. And so like for example, I did an interview with a woman that I became
[22:27]friends with. She was a maternal fetal surgeon. So she did a lot of surgeries on little tiny, tiny,
[22:32]tiny, tiny, tiny babies in utero. And she was just this really, her name is Juliana. She's an
[22:37]incredibly steady, smart, awesome woman. And she had this really demanding job and her mom was
[22:43]or tired anthropologist who I think maybe you said. Yes, yes, yeah, because you were. So yeah,
[22:47]and then she came from, she had had long career in museum work and also anthropology and writing
[22:52]all these books about Italy in the 70s. Like she was just so groovy. And I had her on. I had them
[22:56]both on because she had come to live with her daughter to help watch the kids while she had this
[23:01]big job in Philadelphia that she commuted from New York to do this surgery job. And she had a great
[23:05]husband too, but she needed to hit three boys. And I thought like, well, this is such a cool,
[23:09]interesting group of people, two people that I know. And like, this is working. Like, this is a
[23:14]really great example of how parenting can work in this culture when we don't always help grandparents
[23:19]around or many of us pay for help or like it was a real story of like, I don't know, it was very
[23:24]beautiful because they really, they really helped each other out. And it was just lovely. And I
[23:28]so I had them both on. And that was like, not like, maybe I didn't get my most downloads from that
[23:32]story because none of them are like, they're not like, I mean, I had on a gas tire. She's a famous
[23:36]person. Like, I've had a few bigger names. But that was like, I just liked them. And I thought
[23:40]they were interesting. And I thought other people would be interested. And so that's kind of what
[23:44]the show is is like, the example I always give people is like, you go to a party. And like, I feel like
[23:49]in this age, when I'm I'm 47, whenever I go out now, it's like, I was into yapping with some other
[23:55]cool woman. Like, it's not like I'm ever, I mean, I talked to men. It's not, but like my interest is
[23:59]always in like, well, what are these groovy women doing? You know, all generations, I'm really
[24:03]interested in like, what are older women doing? Like, if you're younger, like, what do you think
[24:06]you're going to be doing? And I think my show, I'm hoping that's the, that's what I'd like to
[24:11]know. That's the main thing I'd like to know is like, well, how's everyone doing out there?
[24:15]You know what I mean? Like, what are you doing? What you thought you would be doing? Or what do you
[24:19]think you'd want to be doing? Or what surprises have gotten in the way of your life that
[24:23]you're doing exactly what you thought you wouldn't be doing? And I think that that's
[24:27]what I want out of it. And do you feel like you're doing what you want to be doing?
[24:30]I do. I do. But I think, you know, it's funny because most of the time, I'm really, I'm really
[24:35]proud of my, my creative output. I feel like I'm proud of it. And I'm happy, but there are
[24:41]times where I wish I had done something more kind of straight, straight ahead. Like, my, all the
[24:47]ups and downs has been very cool. But there are times where you're just like, I wish that I could
[24:51]just go to a job and have someone tell me what to do or work with people or have a team or,
[24:57]you know, many of my friends now since I'm 47, like they're, they're very successful. They have
[25:01]big jobs. And you know, that to me sometimes is like, I don't know what that's like to work in
[25:06]an office. I haven't worked in an office in 20 years. And to me, I think things could be a little
[25:12]more, God, not easy, but like more straightforward. But then I think I would not like that.
[25:18]Every opportunity I've had to go in that direction, I've, I've steered way clearer of it. So
[25:22]I don't know. I, yeah, I think I'm doing what I, what I'm supposed to be doing. But it's always
[25:26]evolving. And I think it sounds like for you too, it's evolving. It's never going to, like,
[25:30]because this is a very interesting field. This podcasting business is very
[25:34]interesting. And it's, I don't know. It's, it's not, I'm not sure what it is anymore,
[25:38]or what it ever has been. But I know that I like talking to people. And I like meeting people.
[25:44]And I like amplifying good stories. And I like the concept of talking into a microphone. And I
[25:50]think I know how to do it pretty well. And I can listen. And so yeah, so I think I'm doing what
[25:55]I'm supposed to be doing. But we'll see. I don't know. I don't know what else we do. I was going
[25:59]to ask you, like, what's coming next? Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's like dot, dot, dot,
[26:02]question. Do you have anything short term coming up that aside from the podcast? Or so I just,
[26:08]I was trying to figure out. So I was just saying, like, I kind of did this really intense, like,
[26:12]not intense, but just kind of lose first season. My first season was 45 episodes. I mean, that's not,
[26:16]I don't think they teach you that in podcast school. I mean, I don't really know. I was just
[26:19]really literally doing it myself. So I was like, when do I stop? When do I cut? I don't even have
[26:23]seasons. Right. So I mean, why do you need to? Because you don't. I don't. I don't know. I just don't.
[26:27]I mean, similarly, I feel like yours just grew and grew and grew. And then all of a sudden,
[26:30]like, it was like, everyone probably was pitching you and you couldn't not. You couldn't say no
[26:34]because you were interested in all these books. That's right. That's exactly what's happening. I'm
[26:37]having, I mean, I say no, but there are a lot of books. They're so good. Right. And then I'm like,
[26:43]and then now I'm giving up on this whole person in their whole life. And I know. But I have to,
[26:46]I have to like say what I buy this book in a bookstore, and I have to be really strict with myself.
[26:51]Right. And I mean, if I wouldn't buy it and it doesn't appeal to me in any level of them, just
[26:55]I can't do it. Right. You can't like let your heartbeat broken by like some book that's like
[27:00]in the library that or like in a bookstore that like no one bought. I mean, it's it's heartbreaking.
[27:04]It is. I think especially when you meet all these people. And like, so I don't only interview
[27:08]authors. I have, but that is the tends to be because it works a lot very well with the podcast with
[27:12]promotion and stuff like that. But I think that yeah, I mean, everyone has a story. It's hard to not feel
[27:20]compelled to talk to somebody. And I feel like that. Like people are all interesting kind of.
[27:25]So I am going to do. So the second season of my podcast, which is just finished,
[27:30]was all about loss. I kind of had more of a theme. And I think the next
[27:34]the season I'm also going to have a theme because it's anchoring me in terms of figuring out like why?
[27:40]Yeah. Like it's just making more sense of like what's the reason for this. Like I believe that
[27:47]just talking to people and amplifying is great. But it's like we're almost at this moment in time
[27:50]where I think I feel like I need some anger. Like I need to know what I'm focusing on. So
[27:56]I'm trying to figure that part out at the moment. And yeah, I mean, I have a couple of other
[28:01]book ideas like kind of wanted Ella to to happen didn't happen. I'm working with a producer
[28:06]on a TV project based on Ella. Again, like these things are very hard to do. They're not long,
[28:12]you know, they're long shots. But this is a woman I've been working with for a few years and we have
[28:16]we're pitching it, you know, a TV animated series. So that might be fun. And yeah, I had an idea for
[28:23]a book that I worked on really hard last year with an agent and we just couldn't do it. It was
[28:28]about loss and talking to kids about loss. And it was really I really tried. We both tried. And it
[28:34]was like then we met. We're like this. We're not going to be able to do it. And I think that was
[28:37]also a really good lesson. Like I don't know, like some things are not necessarily supposed to live on
[28:43]as things other people experience, right? Like it's it's hard because you want everything that you
[28:49]think. And I want to read that book. I'll send it to you. I will. It's so it was the Tree of Life
[28:54]kind of incident. So I grew up in Pittsburgh. That was my synagogue. And when that shooting happened,
[28:59]I wrote a piece for the Washington Post. And it was like really from the heart. It was all about
[29:04]like, you know, where we live in our like where we live in our childhood minds, like what we bring
[29:10]into our memories about physical spaces. Yeah. Because that story was so evocative because I knew
[29:15]the physical space so intimately. And so I think that that was my idea was that like we we know
[29:20]intimately where we went to school. We remember what the banister feels like. Yes. Walking up the
[29:24]stairs from Jim class. Like and so I wanted to figure out how to convey that in talking to kids
[29:32]about the reality of these terrible things that were happening. And I mean, I still don't know how to do
[29:39]like this is like the question of our ages. Like how do we talk to our children about all these
[29:43]terrible, difficult things that are happening. And I feel like that's just, you know, one one editor
[29:48]was interested from a from a big publisher. But like we couldn't it was getting really watered
[29:55]down. And I think because nobody wants to talk about gun violence and nobody wants to talk about
[30:00]Semitism and because I mean, obviously right yet right it just keeps happening and it seems like
[30:07]there has to be these ways to do it so that's like something I've been thinking about and
[30:11]but it was a really cool experience and I'm glad I worked on it and you know I'll sit with it
[30:16]and see what happens and you know and then I have another idea for a book that I was working about
[30:20]about a little like quirky little boy like mine and that is also kind of happening when I work
[30:25]on it when I work on it it's it's you know I think it's these things have to be if no one's
[30:31]coming to demanding something you know you do what you do which is now like the podcast is rolling
[30:36]people pitch me people have books coming out people are working on cool stuff I meet them I'm like
[30:40]I'd like to talk to you so I think at the moment that's the that's the thrust but you know
[30:46]do you have any advice to aspiring authors I do I think that if you want to write something
[30:52]you really have to make it really really really good I mean you really do you really have to work
[30:57]on it for a long time and I think if you have an idea for something you got to explore the idea
[31:02]you you can't particularly a lot of people ask me about writing a kids book and I think that
[31:07]you know you really need to have the book completed and as good as it's going to be you can't
[31:12]really have an idea and take an idea to an agent at this and where we are in publishing
[31:19]is too competitive there's too many people doing it who are already established or who are famous
[31:23]and have like a late night show and I keep talking about like the late night people because they
[31:27]all do children's books and to me it's like I bet a lot of people have like really funny ideas
[31:32]that aren't the Jimmy's or whatever which is fine they're great I love late night guys like that's
[31:36]great but I think that that's the business of publishing so you got to get your head around that
[31:41]and you have to know that like just because you have an idea for a book and your friend of the
[31:44]illustrations that doesn't mean that you're going to get it into an agent's hands because they're
[31:48]very overwhelmed and I think that you have to just really make it really really really good or do
[31:53]it yourself because I think in the I think at this day age I just don't think that having a book
[31:58]published by a big there's what like three publishers now I don't know that it's going to benefit
[32:04]you that that that much so if you love it and you have an idea and you want to make it should make
[32:09]it you can make it you can you can do it you might have to spend a little money to make it but then
[32:13]you could decide do I actually want to like print this a million times do I want to try to get it
[32:17]into bookstores and sell it myself I mean but do it don't be afraid to do stuff and don't like
[32:22]think that somebody's just gonna take your idea and scoop it up and say yes let's do it I mean I
[32:27]think that that does happen but it's not that common or like if you have an idea for a podcast like
[32:32]make the podcast make a few episodes like don't just like talk about it and don't just like ask
[32:38]somebody else how to do it like just do it you have to just do things that's is that harsh is
[32:42]that too like mom like I love it I don't know I love it perfect it's great yeah it's great advice
[32:47]needs to be said thank you sorry I know it's hard I know it's hard it's so hard it's so hard
[32:53]but all the good things you want to do are hard anything cool people want to do it's hard yeah
[32:57]you got to work at it well thank you so much for coming out of the show and this was like so fun
[33:02]now you have to come on mine okay yeah come over to my house sure I'm gonna Brooklyn yeah we'll just
[33:06]keep going back and run awesome okay thank you thank you for listening to moms and have time to
[33:10]read books with zibi Owens please make sure to sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com to get
[33:16]more updates about episodes like these and also lots of live events thanks so much for listening today
[33:22]again please go check out we found time calm we found time calm for this week's new five essays
[33:29]from authors who have been in the podcast and also go to goldbelly.com and order some
[33:34]ninnies treats crumb kicks they are so good and you will not regret it although your clothes might
[33:39]be a little tight next week um I hope you all have a great week but bye thanks you can follow me on
[33:45]Instagram at moms don't have time to read books thanks so much to Steve and Ryan that texture
[33:51]sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this
[33:55]fantastic intro and now trim music thanks for listening you could always email me at zibiatzibiowens.com