Ashley Prentice Norton, THE CHOCOLATE MONEY
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[1:44]I'm here today with Ashley Prentice Norton, who's the author of Novels the Chocolate
[1:47]Money, and if you left, a graduate of Georgetown and the creative writing program at NYU.
[1:52]She currently lives in New York with her husband and three children.
[1:55]So welcome, Ashley.
[1:56]Thanks for coming on Moms.
[1:57]I don't have time to read books.
[1:58]Thank you for having me, of course.
[2:00]Let's talk about the chocolate money first.
[2:01]Okay.
[2:02]How could you please tell listeners what that's about?
[2:05]Well, it's sort of about your standard dysfunctional family with money and bad parenting.
[2:11]And I won't go into sort of the characters and stuff like that because everybody knows
[2:13]the arc.
[2:14]It was so good.
[2:15]And as I've told you before, I've had it for years, and when did it come out?
[2:19]I can't remember.
[2:20]2012?
[2:21]2012.
[2:22]Yeah.
[2:23]And I read it actually with my book group.
[2:24]That is amazing.
[2:25]That's like amazing to hear that.
[2:27]So, because you hear people say, I love your book, and then you like to date with it.
[2:32]Of course they read it.
[2:33]No.
[2:34]And this book came out forever.
[2:35]I'm like, are you sure you want me on your podcast, and you don't have to be played?
[2:38]And then I really like, this is a big deal.
[2:41]This is a big deal to be on your podcast, so I'm really grateful.
[2:44]Oh, don't be silly.
[2:45]But it's even better than I read it a long time ago, because now I don't have another book
[2:48]that has to read.
[2:49]Exactly.
[2:50]So I'm like, I can't do more of this.
[2:53]Let's go through all my past books.
[2:54]Exactly.
[2:55]Exactly.
[2:56]So when you wrote the chocolate money, what inspired you to write this book?
[3:00]This was your first book.
[3:01]This is my first book.
[3:02]And I guess, I mean, people ask if it was autobiographical.
[3:05]I do have a really call for mom, and that's kind of what got it started.
[3:10]I mean, I guess at the time I didn't really have an active imagination.
[3:13]And, you know, I think the tone in sort of the book, I think, was very true, but there
[3:18]was a lot of sort of, I'm 17, vibe to it, and what did my parents did to me wrong.
[3:23]And now that I'm a parent, I'm, oh my God.
[3:26]This is how I'm parenting.
[3:27]And my mom, thank goodness, has I think forgiven me because people don't know her,
[3:34]thought every single word was true, you know, which it wasn't.
[3:38]So in the book, you talk about the mom character as babes.
[3:41]Yeah, exactly.
[3:42]It's actually a larger than life character with these giant parties and just over the
[3:47]top everything that is alternately funny, but also sort of crushing to the character
[3:53]in the book to have a mom like that.
[3:55]Right.
[3:56]And after it came out, so she stopped talking to you.
[3:58]Exactly.
[3:59]Because she thought it was all about her.
[4:00]And there were some people thought.
[4:01]People thought.
[4:02]Yes.
[4:03]See, I would feel like for someone who I'll go on a limb and say maybe one more narcissistic
[4:08]type person else.
[4:09]Right.
[4:10]That they would like love that.
[4:11]Well, I guess, but it was pretty harsh to have your daughter.
[4:15]I mean, I guess if my daughter wrote a book like that about me, I'm not sure I'd read
[4:19]it because I feel like, okay, it's your interpretation, you know, you're like, I would
[4:25]read it.
[4:26]No, I'm thinking if my daughter wrote a book like that about me, I would be so upset.
[4:30]Well, exactly.
[4:31]Exactly.
[4:32]I need a book about me.
[4:33]That wasn't completely out of your sense lettering, I'd be like, you're out.
[4:37]Well, now that I have changed your, your room, my life, I hate you.
[4:41]I'm the most neglected because I have three.
[4:43]And so there's all that going on.
[4:44]And so I'm like, oh my God, that's what I was like.
[4:47]And now that I've been, you know, done the work, whatever, it's a therapy, I'm a stress
[4:52]talk about therapy, but I just some kind of like, you know what?
[4:55]You've got to get over that.
[4:56]You're almost 50 years old.
[4:59]And there's a lot of good stuff there that I, you know, I'm picking on certain stuff,
[5:03]but there's so much good stuff.
[5:06]And my mom has such a sense of fun and she's so stylish and the things that she did,
[5:11]like people weren't doing the best thing I'm almost, she doesn't care in this, in the
[5:16]good sense.
[5:17]You know, she wasn't saying, you're like, what do people think of me?
[5:19]She had like a freedom.
[5:20]And they didn't give her credit for that.
[5:22]I was like, looking at my side of the story always.
[5:24]I just have such a better appreciation for it.
[5:27]I don't judge anybody's parenting anymore.
[5:29]I really don't because I've seen some kids that have developed major issues, problems,
[5:36]struggled.
[5:37]And I see these parents and they are trying, they are in there working hard.
[5:41]And it wasn't in the kiddo saying, oh, it's because I didn't have a good nanny.
[5:45]You know, I mean, these are like just kind of gross things.
[5:47]But anyway, I just, I feel like I'm far less, I try to be far less judgmental.
[5:51]I feel like the more kids I have, the more I doubt my own influence over their development
[5:57]at all.
[5:58]Exactly.
[5:59]I feel like they maybe like 80% of them is completely out of my control.
[6:03]They just are who they are.
[6:04]They're like born that way.
[6:07]And I could mess them up.
[6:09]So sometimes I'm like, it's like first do no harm type of parenthesis.
[6:12]Exactly.
[6:13]Just don't ruin this kid.
[6:14]She's absolutely.
[6:15]Exactly.
[6:16]Exactly.
[6:17]I try to work from the point of kindness and just taking a breath.
[6:22]And that really helped me.
[6:23]And I don't, yeah.
[6:24]I mean, I'm not a yellow, but just bring my voice down.
[6:27]And you know, and I found it in an argument that we told people aren't listening to
[6:30]what you're saying.
[6:31]They're listening to what they're saying.
[6:32]So it doesn't matter.
[6:33]I'm like this.
[6:34]So you know, you sound really upset that you thought I was doing this and it's kind of
[6:39]our culture now.
[6:40]It's like the kids always write.
[6:43]But then they, my kids kind of come around.
[6:46]And then when I ask like the child, like, you didn't get me the balance times I liked.
[6:51]Really?
[6:52]Anyway, so that's been, it's made my parenting a lot happier when I don't try to
[6:56]argue with them about their feelings and their perception of what kind of job I'm doing.
[7:01]Because I'm confident in that.
[7:02]Well, I know I'm doing the best I can.
[7:04]You know, and actually I did not know this whole part of your history when before I
[7:09]was recently here for this podcast.
[7:11]And I didn't know that you had had manic depression and that you had been through all
[7:15]of this stuff while a parent.
[7:18]And even the headline of this article that you wrote in red, what called mom interrupted,
[7:22]the headline I'm just going to read says manic depression pushed Ashley Prentice Norton
[7:26]to the brink of suicide.
[7:28]It took six months.
[7:29]Her husband's love and 17 rounds of electroshock therapy to bring her back to her kids
[7:34]alive.
[7:35]Oh my gosh.
[7:36]And then of course the article follows, which was like insane.
[7:38]And this is the best quote I thought after you sort of come through it.
[7:41]You write, now when I play the simple melodies of family life, getting my girls' tights
[7:46]on in the morning, brushing my son's hair, deciding on a restaurant for a night out with
[7:50]my husband, each one sounds to me like a perfect concerto.
[7:54]Even when we're all dead tired, frustrated or fighting, I can still hear the song.
[7:58]That's so amazing.
[8:00]Well, the irony of that is the concerto and song part might editor wrote.
[8:05]I love your editor.
[8:07]She's a great writer.
[8:08]She's such a great writer.
[8:09]She put that in there.
[8:10]And I was kind of like, sounds like me.
[8:12]Oh no.
[8:13]You say so.
[8:14]So I have to tell her.
[8:15]She put that in there and she's brilliant.
[8:17]She's a great.
[8:18]She's a good friend of mine too.
[8:19]So I'll have to have her on that.
[8:20]Exactly.
[8:21]She's great.
[8:22]She's an editor, no.
[8:23]I was.
[8:24]Yeah, exactly.
[8:25]But I'm just saying she's a good editor.
[8:26]But the feeling was yours.
[8:27]Which is exactly.
[8:28]Exactly.
[8:29]Appreciate that everyday moments now so much more.
[8:32]So tell me a little more.
[8:33]What was that like?
[8:34]And I read about it.
[8:35]Tell me it was for rutal.
[8:37]I had a mania and then I fell into this depression.
[8:40]It just snapped like that.
[8:42]It turned and I literally could not watch TV.
[8:46]I couldn't read books.
[8:48]We went to a play once and it was half over.
[8:50]And I was like, great.
[8:51]Don't believe.
[8:52]And I couldn't.
[8:53]And I couldn't sit through the rap.
[8:54]But I did.
[8:55]And then I would kind of drop the kids off at school.
[8:58]And I mean, literally I don't have memories.
[9:02]It just they're wiped out.
[9:04]And finally I said, I have to go.
[9:06]This isn't working.
[9:07]And I would go and talk to people who went there.
[9:09]I was like, it's going to get better.
[9:10]And this lasted for two months.
[9:11]And it was just brutal.
[9:13]And we tried everything and different medications.
[9:16]And once time I thought, I'm like,
[9:17]I'm going to get out there and do something.
[9:19]Because people were talking about exercise.
[9:20]So I went to school cycle.
[9:22]And in front of my started it.
[9:23]And so I'm on my bike and I'm like, OK, I'm trying.
[9:26]And then I left and I get home.
[9:28]And Elizabeth had sent me a plant.
[9:31]Like, that's how bad I look.
[9:33]Like, she could tell that she was just like, you know,
[9:37]I was like, I thought that was a good day.
[9:39]But yeah, and types were terrifying.
[9:42]Getting the clothes on.
[9:43]And anyway, so finally I just said,
[9:46]I have to go to the hospital.
[9:47]We have to try something else.
[9:49]And I'd heard about electric shock.
[9:50]And they don't know anything about it.
[9:53]It's like turning the TV on and off.
[9:55]Kind of rebooting a computer or so.
[9:57]But the hospital was trying to find two
[9:58]because I would see the TV.
[10:00]It was house, and there's this creepy man with the cane.
[10:03]I couldn't watch it.
[10:04]I'm like creeping by there.
[10:06]And so anyway, we tried this, and it's in the article,
[10:09]but I was just terrified,
[10:11]because they strap you on this thing,
[10:13]and they put this thing on your mouth,
[10:15]and you can't even see the person
[10:16]that's administering shocks.
[10:18]But every time I would wake up,
[10:19]and I would say, please let it be gone,
[10:21]please let it be gone, and it wouldn't be gone.
[10:23]And so I got out of the hospital.
[10:25]I don't remember that's really, and it wasn't really gone.
[10:28]I mean, my brother, when he got married,
[10:29]I had to leave the ceremony after,
[10:31]the ceremony was like, get in bed,
[10:33]and ask my husband to bring me some wedding cake.
[10:36]That's how sad it was.
[10:37]Anyway, so I tried to get that.
[10:39]I got out of there, and I was still feeling down.
[10:42]But finally, it got better, and finally, I recovered.
[10:45]But it took a long time.
[10:46]It was a year before I could read a book,
[10:48]and it's my life, and it was a mass mark.
[10:50]The only thing I can do, this is really weird.
[10:53]I could write, that's the only thing I could do.
[10:56]And I finished my book at my brother's wedding,
[10:58]like the day I landed October 31st.
[11:00]And so bizarre, right?
[11:02]Wow.
[11:03]So I guess I did get me through,
[11:04]it was the only thing I could do.
[11:05]But who knew?
[11:06]Yeah.
[11:07]So that's when you were writing the chocolate money.
[11:08]Yes.
[11:09]And then you wrote another novel after that.
[11:11]Yes.
[11:12]Which, wait, I want to, wait, I'm not done with this.
[11:14]I'm not done at this party, we're like,
[11:15]because this is so, I mean, tragic,
[11:17]but so inspiring that you could get through it,
[11:19]and that you had to deal with your kids
[11:21]at the same time too, right?
[11:22]I mean, it's a blur.
[11:24]I mean, but the thing was, my husband said,
[11:27]which I didn't know.
[11:27]I mean, family members flew in, friends came in.
[11:31]We had a huge support network.
[11:33]So he wasn't, I mean, he's a rock star.
[11:36]But he was telling me this,
[11:38]because my daughter, Sally, said, you know,
[11:40]five years old, she just remembered this, right?
[11:43]And you know, you know it impacted them, obviously.
[11:46]But kind of, for me, I was like,
[11:48]didn't really want to have the conversation.
[11:49]And I was here if they wanted to bring it up,
[11:52]but I kind of felt it was narcissistic in a way
[11:54]to be like, let's talk about me in my depression.
[11:56]Maybe when they were older,
[11:57]but I kind of, and maybe that was the wrong approach.
[12:00]But yeah, so I finally finally came out of it.
[12:03]But yeah, my black, my book was a mass market paper
[12:06]back at Target that I could read.
[12:09]But yeah, I wrote the chocolate money
[12:11]and finished during this.
[12:13]It's like, how you hear about so many artists
[12:15]that have manic depression?
[12:16]Isn't there like a whole history of different artists?
[12:19]Like that it comes hand in hand
[12:21]was like massive creativity?
[12:23]Well, I was thinking about this,
[12:25]and I think that's a flawed premise.
[12:27]Oh, okay.
[12:28]Because I think people have this conception
[12:31]that when you're manic, and you want you feel invincible,
[12:34]you feel creative.
[12:36]And most of what, and at Professor Point,
[12:39]that's I mean, what most of what's produced
[12:40]is like gobbledygook.
[12:42]You know, I filled a whole notebook
[12:45]with my impressions of talented Mr. Ripley
[12:48]in that movie.
[12:50]But I mean, my think is, there is,
[12:52]if you're brilliant to begin with,
[12:55]like a Picasso, or something that it can open up then,
[12:58]but if you're not brilliant to begin with,
[12:59]it's not gonna make you feel it.
[13:00]You don't mean to suggest.
[13:01]Well, no, no, but people think like if only I'm in
[13:03]the press, I can't do it.
[13:04]Oh, no, writer, that's what people do.
[13:06]Really?
[13:07]Yeah.
[13:08]And you know, for me, it was just really detrimental
[13:12]to my writing, I read some of the stuff
[13:13]and people were like, get to the point already
[13:15]because I was manic when I was writing it originally,
[13:17]and then when I got depressed,
[13:19]I kind of, that's when I finished it and I wrote a lot.
[13:23]This is a really stupid question.
[13:24]And I am, I was a psych major way back when,
[13:26]and I feel like I'm pretty well educated,
[13:28]but bipolar versus manic depression.
[13:30]It's the same thing, I prefer manic depression
[13:33]because bipolar is a little cleaner and PC.
[13:35]Okay, but it's the same thing.
[13:37]Okay, I thought so.
[13:38]But then I was like, maybe it's not.
[13:40]Maybe it's the same thing.
[13:42]Okay, wow.
[13:44]Okay, so to your second novel,
[13:45]so you have this book, which is amazing.
[13:47]By the way, when I remembered I was sure it was a memoir,
[13:51]and then I was like, wait, does it say a novel
[13:52]in the bottom left corner?
[13:54]Anyway, first book, you know, I'll work you with it, whatever.
[13:57]No, it was so good and just really captured
[14:01]what it's like to feel that way as a young child
[14:03]and how it ends up shaping your life.
[14:04]Yeah.
[14:05]Then what made you write your second novel?
[14:07]Well, this is funny because I sold it, I wrote an outline.
[14:12]It was gonna be about a nanny working with a mom who was,
[14:15]it was based on basically a mom that I know,
[14:18]her child drowned and she went inside to get a drink or something.
[14:22]It was unbelievable, like how do you get past that?
[14:25]And I was like, I gotta write about this.
[14:27]And so I don't believe in like stealing somebody's story.
[14:30]It wasn't that, it was just like that scream.
[14:33]I can only imagine coming out and seeing that.
[14:35]So I was gonna write about sort of this
[14:37]and how the mother was man, there was a bad nanny involved.
[14:40]She was an entitled kid from New York City.
[14:43]And so my agent sold that.
[14:45]Like, yeah, yeah, so I sent her write it.
[14:48]And then I'm like, well, I don't know how to make this happen.
[14:51]And I totally changed it.
[14:52]It was totally different.
[14:54]And I didn't bother to tell anybody like my editor
[14:56]or Bill, Bill Clegg is my agent who I could give
[14:59]a whole interview about him.
[15:01]But he was really kind of-
[15:02]He's coming on my show.
[15:03]Oh, yeah, I have a new book.
[15:05]Yes, yes.
[15:06]Wait, I have to find it.
[15:07]It's right here.
[15:08]At the end of the day.
[15:09]Oh, yeah, do you see it?
[15:10]Oh, happy roads.
[15:11]All happy roads to often need to build Clegg.
[15:13]The end of the day.
[15:14]That was funny story about him about the child's money.
[15:16]Oh, my God.
[15:17]Just everyone who, oh, portrait of an addict is an addict.
[15:20]So good.
[15:21]Oh, my gosh.
[15:22]Anyway, so he was like, Ashley, you can't do that.
[15:25]And I said, well, I did.
[15:26]And I said, well, it's finished.
[15:27]And he said, well, you're going to have to call Lauren
[15:29]because I'm not calling her.
[15:31]I said, fine.
[15:32]So I called her, and I said, Lauren, there's good news
[15:33]and good news.
[15:34]And she said, what is it?
[15:35]And I said, well, I finished the novel.
[15:36]And it's much better than the original level
[15:38]was going to be, which I really felt it was.
[15:41]And so she's like, OK.
[15:42]So then she really liked it.
[15:44]Oh, Bill, it's like, you can't do that.
[15:48]But it's like it's not non-fiction.
[15:50]I mean, I don't write from outlines.
[15:52]It's just that's kind of, I mean, I
[15:54]cringe when people say process.
[15:55]But that's kind of how I write.
[15:57]You just said what I did.
[15:59]Well, I just see what happens.
[16:00]I don't believe my characters are taking control of whatever.
[16:03]It's just the way my mind works and the way
[16:05]you just don't know you go for a walk in the woods.
[16:07]And you don't know where you're going.
[16:09]So when you write, do you just write whenever the mood strikes you?
[16:13]No.
[16:13]I believe in somebody told me this
[16:15]or whatever, maybe one of those artists' way things I love.
[16:19]And I believe in time to writing.
[16:21]But like three hours, somebody told me
[16:23]I have a cousin who's a painter.
[16:25]And she said, you can't do any more creative work more than three hours.
[16:28]At least she couldn't.
[16:29]So like, that's a good time.
[16:30]You go and you sit down for three hours.
[16:32]And then you see what happens.
[16:33]If you write one word, that's your three hours.
[16:35]If you write.
[16:35]And that way you don't get caught up in 20,
[16:39]that whatever word turn is.
[16:40]So that's what I do.
[16:41]And I try to do it for it is a week.
[16:43]And I go down to the writer's room.
[16:44]Oh my God.
[16:45]I'm obsessed with that place.
[16:46]And it's amazing.
[16:48]And they have a nap room and they have a kitchen.
[16:51]And it's, you can eat your desk.
[16:53]It's amazing.
[16:54]But my thing is I think you should leave your apartment.
[16:57]Because then there's no, I should leave my apartment.
[16:59]Because then there's no, well, I'm going to tidy up
[17:00]or my kids are there.
[17:01]So libraries are great.
[17:03]I do the New York Society Library.
[17:05]I've been to the main library.
[17:06]I've been to the East Hamptons Society Library.
[17:08]I just am to my library.
[17:09]So that's really important for me.
[17:11]Those are, that's my tip about.
[17:13]So don't wait, at least for me.
[17:16]I mean, if you wait for the mood to strike,
[17:17]anyway, for me, it's never going to strike.
[17:19]But I also feel like you shouldn't push yourself.
[17:21]I shouldn't push myself if I'm not in the place
[17:24]where I can take on four days a week or anything.
[17:27]So are you working on anything now?
[17:30]Well, I'm working on something I call creepy guys
[17:33]who do really bad things.
[17:35]So I want to get Evan reading tons of British
[17:39]psychological thrillers.
[17:40]OK.
[17:40]So at least the jewel, he had to start
[17:42]really want to break into that genre.
[17:44]So that's kind of what I'm working on.
[17:45]So I've been reading tons of books about that
[17:47]and character studies about creepy men
[17:49]who do whatever dangerous things.
[17:53]I don't know what the title is.
[17:54]That's not going to be the title.
[17:55]But you can see where I'm going to get it.
[17:56]Yeah.
[17:58]Well, that sounds great.
[17:59]Yeah.
[17:59]And you're doing your whole 12 hours of eager.
[18:01]Well, not right now.
[18:03]I'm still kind of researching and thinking about it
[18:05]and stuff because I tried it before.
[18:06]And I was like, oh, I don't really know.
[18:07]But now I'm like, ask me anything about creepy men
[18:10]who do bad things.
[18:10]And I can tell you.
[18:12]So do you worry you're going to go into another mania
[18:16]or depression?
[18:17]Or do you feel like you have it under control?
[18:19]I feel like I know from my past times of any mood swings
[18:24]or am I going to go into this?
[18:26]I'm more like have more anxiety than anything.
[18:28]But is this going to be like, am I going to have an under
[18:31]control?
[18:31]It might not like, do you worry about that?
[18:34]I don't because I really believe in the mind body
[18:36]connection.
[18:37]And I think if I'm sitting around worrying about it,
[18:39]you've probably happened.
[18:40]And I have great doctors.
[18:42]And so if I feel a little bit coming on between the men,
[18:46]and what's the use for me about it?
[18:47]I mean, I can't do anything.
[18:49]But I mean, I'm careful with my sleep and my diet
[18:52]and exercise and trying to keep.
[18:54]I mean, I'm lucky that I'm not working in jobs that's
[18:57]huge stress.
[18:58]I have one daughter at home.
[19:00]So I can leave it like now.
[19:01]So what am I going to do?
[19:04]I mean, you could feel a totally different way.
[19:05]I mean, I mean, I've come to the point in my life where
[19:09]I, you know, they say I know that 90% of stuff
[19:12]I worry about or even how it never happens.
[19:14]Yeah.
[19:15]So I'm trying.
[19:16]I mean, I'm still a huge warrior, but I'm trying not
[19:18]to do that.
[19:19]I love that.
[19:19]My dad called it catastrophizing or scripting.
[19:22]You know, why do that?
[19:24]Yeah.
[19:24]Because worry really doesn't cause anything.
[19:26]It doesn't help.
[19:26]I know.
[19:27]I know that.
[19:28]I know, logically.
[19:31]Right.
[19:32]Yeah.
[19:32]I'm working on it too.
[19:33]I feel like I'm getting better.
[19:33]It's like you're not like mellowing out a little bit.
[19:38]I mean, do you have any other parting advice
[19:41]to aspiring authors?
[19:43]A.M. Holmes once said to me, she doesn't have writer's block.
[19:47]She doesn't believe in it.
[19:48]She's like, there's not such thing, which helps me.
[19:50]I already said, go somewhere else.
[19:52]Writing is a good part.
[19:53]You know, publishing, it's a whole different thing.
[19:56]They're to their bifurcated.
[19:58]So, and if you.
[20:00]don't have to do it, don't, if that makes sense.
[20:03]You know what I'm saying?
[20:04]Like, if it's something that you don't do
[20:07]and you're kind of like, I really should be doing that,
[20:09]it's more painful not to do it than it is to do it
[20:13]if you're writing.
[20:14]If you're really believing yourself as a writer,
[20:16]you'll feel pain when you're not doing it
[20:18]and you know that doing it is the right thing.
[20:20]Does that make sense?
[20:20]Yeah, that makes sense.
[20:22]Awesome.
[20:22]Well, thank you so much.
[20:23]Thanks for sharing your story.
[20:24]Sorry for delving into your emotional statement.
[20:28]No, these people are so close to it.
[20:30]Sorry, so close for it.
[20:31]It didn't help somebody, you know, that's my, yeah.
[20:34]Somebody who knows somebody or...
[20:36]Yeah, that's when the only reason now
[20:37]to really share it, yeah.
[20:39]And your books are so good.
[20:40]This book was so good.
[20:41]Oh, thank you.
[20:42]Thank you so much.
[20:43]So I'm just so thrilled that it's taught you.
[20:45]Yeah, exactly.
[20:46]Thank you so much.
[20:47]I really appreciate it.
[20:48]You've been listening to moms and have time to read books
[20:50]with Zibi Owens.
[20:51]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com
[20:55]to get more updates about episodes like these
[20:58]and also lots of live events.
[20:59]Thanks again for listening today, everybody.
[21:02]And don't forget to check out wefoundtime.com.
[21:05]And it's also available on zibiowans.com as a tab,
[21:08]but also wefoundtime.com, check out the essays
[21:11]and go to Instagram at zibiowans
[21:13]and check out my Instagram Live's 11 a.m. to 12 p.m.
[21:17]Every weekday Monday to Friday during this quarantine
[21:20]where I interview four to five authors live
[21:22]for a few minutes each.
[21:23]Please check it out.
[21:24]And thanks for listening.
[21:25]I really appreciate it.
[21:26]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time
[21:29]to read books.
[21:30]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[21:33]for the Sound Editing.
[21:34]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[21:36]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[21:39]Thanks for listening.
[21:40]You could always email me at zibiowans.com.