Megan Angelo, FOLLOWERS
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[0:21]Today's episode has been sponsored by GoodPods. It's an really amazing app where you can follow
[0:26]your smartest, funniest, most curious podcast junkie friends and other people you admire to see
[0:31]what podcasts are listening to, and it's all by episode. So I know I have my own podcast,
[0:37]but even I find myself overwhelmed by how many episodes there are of other podcasts and what
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[0:57]listening to my podcast that would really be awesome. So anyway, GoodPods was founded by a friend
[1:03]I used to work with many moons ago in, I guess, 1999, which really ages me here. But anyway,
[1:11]JJ Ramberg and I used to work together at a big company called Idealab. If anybody heard of that,
[1:15]she was with the site called Cooking.com and I was with Idealab. And now she started GoodPods,
[1:20]among many other endeavors that she's done. And this she's done with her brother Brad Ramberg,
[1:24]who was also at Idealab with me. So all comes full circle. So anyway, thank you to JJ and Brad
[1:30]and everybody. I GoodPods for sponsoring this episode and for making a new searchable, listening,
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[1:45]Megan Angelo is the debut author of Followers, A Novel. Originally from Quakertown, Pennsylvania,
[1:50]she graduated from Villanova University. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times,
[1:54]where she helped launch comedy coverage, the Wall Street Journal, Glamour, L, and many other
[1:59]publications. She currently lives in Pennsylvania with her family. Welcome, Megan. Thanks for
[2:03]coming on Momstone. Have time to read books. Thank you for having me, Zippy. Thanks for coming up
[2:07]from Pennsylvania. That was really nice of you. No problem. I love the bus. Congratulations on your
[2:14]debut novel, Followers. Really excited. Thank you. How do you feel with the coming hands? It's so cool.
[2:19]It's crazy. I mean, you know, I think everyone feels this way to some extent, but for so long,
[2:24]it was just something on my desktop and now to walk into stores and see it as wild. It's so
[2:31]cool. So tell listeners, please, what Followers is about? Sure. So Followers is set half in 2015
[2:39]and half in 2051. In 2015, it's about two girls who find each other on Craigslist as roommates
[2:47]and had to scheme to get famous. And in 2051, it's about a woman named Marlow who has started
[2:54]the future version of a celebrity. She lives in a community that looks like it was built by Instagram.
[3:01]It's a closed community. They're on camera almost 24 seven. And the fun of the book is sort of
[3:06]about finding out what happened to America in between the two timelines and how all of the women
[3:12]are connected. Wow. I mean, that's a great description. Thank you. I've got to work everybody
[3:17]want to read that. I mean, that sounds great. Can you give any previews about what happens in
[3:22]America in between or? I can. It's something that will make you want to throw your phone in the
[3:28]Hudson. Okay. Could I try the East River? You could do the East River. Yeah. So I have options.
[3:34]You have not. Now I'm feeling control. So why this book? How did you come up with the idea for this?
[3:42]I came up with the idea for this sort of in pieces. I had been working in celebrity journalism and
[3:48]entertainment journalism for a really long time. And I don't even think I realized how much color
[3:54]was sort of accumulating in my head about how strange it is behind the scenes of a photo shoot or
[4:00]on the other side of the rope at the red carpet. But what really launched me into the story was
[4:05]thinking about the future. I was writing in my journal one day and I write in cursive. And I
[4:11]realized my kids would not be able to read it, definitely not my grandkids. And I just sat with it
[4:16]because I thought, oh, I'd love to write something that goes into the future. But I'm not a sci-fi
[4:21]person. I'm not a dystopia person. And I'd love to do something that feels more grounded and stuff
[4:25]like that where you, you know, your grandmother would be saying to you, well, this is how it was in
[4:29]my day. And it would just be this strange thing that didn't exist in yours. So slowly over time,
[4:36]all those pieces came together. Add in what was going on in the world when I started writing
[4:41]in late 2016. And you have followers. I loved it in the beginning when you were like, this is
[4:47]something known as an envelope. Like, what is this weird scratchy stuff? And I didn't actually know
[4:53]what you were talking about until at the end of the chapter. You're like, this is cursive.
[4:57]Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you really it's an interesting exercise just like step back and see,
[5:01]I feel like for years, I was just going around and looking at our world as like, what
[5:06]it feels like it really shouldn't be here anymore. Like, you know, the phone book still lands on
[5:10]my doorstep a couple of times a year. It's like almost like a prank gift. Like, you're like, what
[5:15]am I going to do with this? So it was fun to sort of see in acronyms in everyday life.
[5:21]Do you think that we're not going to? I mean, my kids still learn cursive at school.
[5:24]So mind go to public school and they don't. And it's interesting because this little origin story
[5:30]has brought out so many different things from interviewers. I've had some people who are like radio
[5:35]hosts, but also teachers tell me that no, their, their teenagers don't know cursive even now
[5:42]in high school. And I said to one of these guys like, how do they sign their names? And he was like,
[5:46]well, they basically just make up like a cursive adjacent thing for signing their names. But
[5:52]the otherwise they don't use it at all. And some moms have told me have like messaged me on
[5:56]Instagram. And so like, I send my kids to cursive camp in the summer. So yeah, I think it's sort
[6:01]of a varying thing. But I think my kids will be able to make it out because they'll be around
[6:06]the house with me. You know what I mean? Like they'll get a sense of it from me. But I don't
[6:10]know about like my grandkids or, you know, people who have sort of people who write in really
[6:16]sloppy cursive. I don't know if kids will be able to. Do you think that they'll be able to read
[6:20]hand like, do you think they'll write by hand? Do you think that'll go by the wayside too? And
[6:24]it's only only type. I don't know. It's funny because I mean, my son, I sort of look for ways
[6:30]not so like of a hand-ringer because it makes me feel old. So I don't want to be like, oh no, no cursive.
[6:37]My son who's in kindergarten does type a lot. But they do practice printing. And what I think
[6:43]is maybe an advantage of being born now and like going into the future is he's learning
[6:49]to print, you know, by hand to type. And he's learning like English and Spanish at the same time,
[6:54]which like we didn't grow up like that. Everything came later when our brains were like harder.
[6:59]And yeah. So I do think there's advantages to things moving on. But yeah, cursive was kind of
[7:06]where it all began. And when you think about the world in the future, like, this is a fun exercise for
[7:10]anybody to do. Like, what do we think the world would be like in 2015? I don't know. Like, how did you
[7:16]pick what to include? Like, how did you, there were no bounds. You could have put anything in there.
[7:21]Yeah, there were no bounds. And my poor agent had had to read the drafts where there were no
[7:28]because, you know, being a journalist, I sort of, I think I got really overexcited in the early drafts.
[7:35]And, you know, it was a mix of too much research and just the instinct to report, you know,
[7:43]there's like long passages about like famine and race and all these different things that didn't
[7:49]really go with the story. And so I had to have the confidence in later drafts to be like,
[7:57]okay, that's really nice. You can know it in your head for context. But this story is about fame
[8:03]and communication and women and motherhood and friendship. And so those are the parts of the future
[8:09]you need to see here. Wow. So are you getting, you must be getting a lot of questions about
[8:15]followers in general and Instagram and Facebook. And do you have a view? What's your party line on
[8:19]social media? I mean, it's hard because I'm not naturally suited to it. Like, I don't know how
[8:26]you feel. But to me, it is work. It is, I don't know if it's that I'm a little too old or if it's
[8:33]just not in my personality to be a little bit exhibitionist. But I don't like it. I don't like to
[8:39]use it, but I use it for work. So it's hard because I don't know. It's a lot of pressure. It's sort
[8:47]of like, especially now that I'm out here promoting a book. It's almost like a switch flipped
[8:52]the day the book came out and I'm supposed to act like I'm famous. Do you know what I mean?
[8:57]Like, I think I say something like this in the book when the character of floss is first getting
[9:02]started. She posts like pictures of her meals. And it's like, there's nothing really interesting
[9:07]about them. They're just supposed to be interesting because she's eating them. And that's kind of
[9:11]how I feel. Like, who cares about my day? You know what I mean? So it's a little bit of a struggle for
[9:19]me. But at the same time of every time I see someone follow me on Instagram, I'm like, well,
[9:23]that's nice. They're invested in the book. They're invested in me as a writer. And so I try to do
[9:28]it for them. But I don't like it. What do you think about? So sage in the very beginning,
[9:37]you have her face, you know, dead essentially. And like, I'm like, I'm giving too much away.
[9:42]No, no. So we're like on. And it's sort of like epitomizes the sort of stardom. You can
[9:48]have on social and how it can so quickly dive. And you have like teams of people following her.
[9:54]And her every move. And then next thing you know, that's it. What do you think about these sort of...
[10:00]I'm envisioning like a shooting star sort of diving into it like because people come in and out
[10:04]of popularity so quickly and then their stars fade and it's onto the next and some with disastrous
[10:10]consequences. Yeah, so sage who appears at the top of the book is sort of like this Lindsay
[10:16]low hand as character that Orla, one of the protagonist is tasked with writing about at her website a
[10:22]lot. And it's so funny. I don't I look back and I'm like it's interesting to see the things that
[10:28]surfaced after so many years of trafficking and this stuff as a blogger and you know as a journalist.
[10:34]I mean I always felt bad when people didn't like the things I wrote about them and I think that's
[10:41]how I knew I wasn't cut out to be a great journalist because if a celebrity called and said like
[10:49]you know I hit this made me feel bad or I wish you wouldn't have said that I took it really really
[10:54]hard. And even when I didn't know the person, I'm thinking specifically of Lindsay low hand because
[11:00]I can see myself sitting at my desk writing about you know not that I wrote any expertise or any
[11:06]original knowledge of the situation but I've had many jobs where it was my job to go on a computer
[11:10]and say Lindsay low hand was found unresponsive somewhere Lindsay low hand this and I always just
[11:16]felt terrible about it like it really got to me. And so I think that sage I wanted to put her
[11:24]in there to show that she's sort of the person that everyone sees but there's all these people
[11:31]behind that phenomenon and that's Orla. And then people have views on is that right to do that too
[11:38]like yeah is that should we be you know it's certainly not what I set out to do I mean do you know
[11:45]I graduated college in 2006 and my dream on your so yeah well every day I get older every day I
[11:53]every day I meet younger people but you know my dream was to work at Vanity Fair and the internet
[11:58]was not even a glimmer in my eye and then suddenly as soon as I became an adult it was like print
[12:06]was out the internet was in and I was scrambling to try to keep up and I mean did I envision that
[12:13]I would be sitting there you know regurgitating these depressing headlines know but it kind of became
[12:19]this rite of passage for people almost like replacing the act of like being an assistant or
[12:25]something like that although I got to be an assistant too so I did both and I I'm a strong proponent
[12:29]of the merits of being an assistant wait let me read this this quote which thank you for setting that
[12:33]up so nicely in this article for NBC news dot com that you wrote you talked about Natalie Beach's
[12:38]article about essentially impersonating an influencer because that was became her job is at the
[12:44]the end you write there are more Natalie beaches out there young people at the uncertain beginnings
[12:48]of their careers creatives who in a different time may have started by sorting mail or taking coffee
[12:53]orders at an agency or a magazine these jobs never made anyone feel glamorous anyone who ever had
[12:58]one remembers doing the crappy job math could you stick it out for six months a year two tops
[13:03]but people doing work like beaches have to factor in an added risk stay too long and you may
[13:07]forget when you go to pick her back up just where you put yourself down hmm good oh thanks
[13:14]no problem so tell me a little more about this in this particular situation and everything well
[13:20]I well this is I haven't really talked about this but I kind of gotten trouble for this oh okay
[13:25]we don't have to talk no no I think it's okay I mean because it's interesting it's sort of like an
[13:30]art imitating life right imitating art thing yes do you know who Caroline Calway is so Caroline
[13:36]Calway is an influencer and a writer and she sort of has attracted a lot of media attention
[13:45]for being I think pretty good at those things is kind of the gist of it but she got very upset
[13:50]about this article and kind of like you know did a lot of posts on Instagram mentioning me
[13:56]oh no it's fine I mean but I think it's good to talk about it here because what I did not do
[14:02]was respond on social media at all because I'm 35 and I'm just like I feel like I'm a little too
[14:09]old for influencer feuds on Instagram but you know that had an age cap but I'm glad to hear it
[14:15]well I am setting okay thank you great so I don't know and even that is revealing in my personality
[14:21]because it made me feel bad that like she didn't like that piece but at the same time
[14:28]it sort of gave her something to post about that day and even after all of this time trying to
[14:34]understand this world for the book I still feel like I don't really get it I'm always a step
[14:40]behind and I truly don't know if she was even really mad or she was just posting so that was kind
[14:46]of an interesting experience but I did find the Natalie Beach angle of it all to be really fascinating
[14:53]there was a big piece in the cut about Natalie and Natalie was essentially the person who helped
[14:58]Caroline establish her online presence and I do feel like that is something that is probably
[15:04]appealing to a lot of young creative people moving to the city right now who might have had these
[15:09]different jobs where even if it was really crap work was a little easier to qualify on your resume
[15:16]a little easier to be taken care of by a company so it's strange it's just one more way that
[15:22]Instagram is kind of replacing whole industries which is nuts to me it is nuts have you met
[15:27]Emily Gould we've never met I'm a fan of hers yeah I have to put you in touch because
[15:32]she used to work at Gocker I've read a lot of her okay well anyway yeah you have very similar
[15:37]in her book it's coming at you I'm so excited to read her book yeah so you have three kids under
[15:42]the age of five I do how is that going and how did you find time to write this book in the midst of
[15:48]all of that cast that's a really good question I mean so I've been doing like a lot of radio interviews
[15:55]lately and I sort of give this cute answer because I'm limited on time but I think I'm just going
[16:00]to be very honest please yeah no don't give them candy okay that's like a waste of both of our
[16:05]time good because you know these are not polished thoughts but here's the first thing I always
[16:10]like to tell people that there was a lot of Netflix involved on days where I had to rewrite
[16:16]there was a lot of days where I probably wasn't that good of a mom because I was preoccupied
[16:23]or pissed off about a note that I didn't want to take and so I would like snap at my kids
[16:28]and I don't mean to paint myself in such a dark way but I know how I would feel if I saw a mom
[16:35]who just like seemed perfect and then had just like written a novel during this crazy time
[16:40]so I want people to understand that like how I did it like the short answer is not elegantly
[16:47]at all and I hope my kids will forgive me for it but it's really hard I mean the time constraints
[16:54]are a hard thing but I can kind of roll with that like I would write while I was pumping even
[16:58]after two of the babies that were born during it and I'm okay on a little less sleep but now I'm
[17:04]trying to do it again and my one-year-old is still you know pretty high maintenance as one-year-olds
[17:10]tend to be my three and five-year-old boys are insane and I don't really remember how I did it
[17:17]and I'm thinking a lot about the ways you change after you have kids it changes you in great ways
[17:24]I think but I think I was really prepared for like not having the same body after having kids
[17:32]but I wasn't prepared for how it changed my mind like I feel like I'm not as sharp as I used to be
[17:38]I feel like I'm not as funny as I used to be I find myself writing like the wrong word in an email
[17:44]when I mean to say purpose I write purchase and I'm like oh my god and it's unnerving because
[17:50]like this is not the moment this is not the moment to feel like you're really down on your
[17:56]faculties but I feel like that a lot of days I actually called a doctor at one point because I was
[18:00]like all the words keep all the wrong words keep coming out of my mouth like I'm getting and I
[18:04]started like keeping a log like I keep saying garage when I mean garbage yes I was like I think I'm
[18:11]developing some sort of neurological disorder and I went and got like never I thought this stuff
[18:15]turns out I was just really tired and stressed out okay I mean we're like when you keep all
[18:20]this information in and dealing with multiple kids and just kids in general and lack of sleep
[18:24]and all the rest of it like your brain can only do so much and being creative I think all the
[18:29]yeah I think you're right and I'm like really comforted to hear that that has happened it still happens
[18:34]to me all the time I don't know so even the kids they know like oh it's you know you didn't get a
[18:40]lot of sleep all the wrong words you're coming out like I thought it was enough to be able to say the
[18:45]right words but like by the end of the day forget it definitely is a social experiment I mean I feel like
[18:51]in some ways I'm more trained up to forms of torture or anything anything unforeseen like that if I
[18:56]I'm somehow taken like a prisoner of war someday I feel like some of these things I'll be like
[19:01]you're gonna have to use a different one I mean because I haven't slept in six years and I can take
[19:06]a lot of noise stimulation so keep thumbing through the handbooks I love it I love it yeah I thought
[19:13]that too like okay I know how to survive now I know sleep yeah yeah yeah maybe seals here I come
[19:19]never mind that I'm useless I'm so close up but like here I am so what do you mean you're working
[19:28]on another one what are you working on now what's your next so I'm working on another book that's
[19:33]sort of set half in 1999 and half now the hook of it is that there's sort of these two friends
[19:41]who've been friends since high school something happened in high school where they accused a third
[19:46]girl of making up someone on AOL instant messenger if you can I can remember that travel on
[19:52]back with me and one day now they're in their 30s this person that they swore was made up consequences
[20:00]their friend just shows up and she's real.
[20:03]And it kind of unravels the truth of their friendship,
[20:06]the truth of the past 20 years of their life.
[20:09]And I don't know.
[20:10]I didn't know what it was about in a bigger sense at first,
[20:13]but now that I'm further into it,
[20:15]I'm really seeing it's like just me trying to make sense
[20:18]of what it meant to be a teenager at a time where
[20:22]like in some ways the internet was so prevalent,
[20:25]but it was still just something in the living room
[20:28]that you could get up and walk away from
[20:30]and have the rest of your life,
[20:32]and people could still disappear.
[20:34]So it's been a lot of fun.
[20:37]So I'm working on that,
[20:37]and then I'm working on some TV projects too.
[20:40]Yeah, I'm trying to sell a series
[20:42]about three moms who go to the same bar studio
[20:46]and who find out that it's like a front for something else.
[20:50]And it kind of is a trap door
[20:52]into this whole secret history of women in America.
[20:54]So just little tiny things to try
[20:58]between preschool, drop-off, and preschool pickup.
[21:03]And, wow, yeah.
[21:04]I'm really impressed.
[21:05]Thank you.
[21:05]I mean, I'm trying to say.
[21:06]I mean, you should just give yourself some credit
[21:09]for all the stuff you're doing,
[21:10]not to sound like, I mean, now that I know
[21:12]I'm a few years older than you,
[21:13]and now I can see why it's giving you advice.
[21:15]But I mean, I know what it's like having little tiny kids,
[21:18]and now that my kids are a little bit older,
[21:19]like that is the most crazy period of life.
[21:22]I mean, it gets different,
[21:24]but it's never that crazy and intense
[21:26]and like physically demanding as it is
[21:28]when your kids are that little.
[21:29]And to be taking on all of this creative work
[21:32]at the same time is like,
[21:34]I mean, you're gonna feel like you've trained at altitude
[21:36]once they get a little older.
[21:37]You're gonna feel like when they are all in kindergarten
[21:40]and older, you're gonna be like, wow,
[21:42]look at what I can do because now I have this time.
[21:45]Well, that, thank you.
[21:47]Because that makes me feel really good.
[21:48]And I feel like no one ever says that
[21:50]all anyone ever says to me is,
[21:53]it goes so fast and I'm like,
[21:55]it's not how fast it is.
[21:57]So, thank you.
[22:00]That makes me feel motivated and good.
[22:02]Oh, good, I'm so bad.
[22:03]No, I mean, I loved when I kids were little,
[22:05]but it was long.
[22:06]Those days were long to carry the twins.
[22:09]I mean, that was like ages ago, but I said to them
[22:11]the other day, I was like,
[22:12]do you even remember that I stayed home with you for years?
[22:15]Like, do you even remember that?
[22:17]I didn't do like anything when they're like giving me
[22:18]a hard time, like, oh, you have another podcast?
[22:20]I'm like, I didn't do anything hard for years.
[22:24]I really do, my dear member and my son was like,
[22:27]yeah, that was amazing.
[22:28]Oh, my gosh.
[22:30]Now I feel even worse.
[22:31]That's really sad.
[22:32]I guess.
[22:33]I mean, awesome.
[22:34]But I think it's good in the long run,
[22:36]even if you like can't get their juice
[22:38]right when they want their juice,
[22:40]I think it's good in the long run for them to see us
[22:42]as having like other things.
[22:45]Do you know what I mean?
[22:46]Because there will come a time when they're like,
[22:47]stop being so obsessed with me.
[22:49]And that's when we have to have our other things.
[22:51]Yes.
[22:52]It's a delicate balance.
[22:53]But I'm glad I stayed home when I did.
[22:55]I'm glad I'm doing other things now, even still at home.
[22:58]But every day it's like, how do we make this work?
[23:00]And yeah.
[23:01]The work from home, mom, is an interesting,
[23:05]I mean, I'm the same way, because I'm at home with them too.
[23:08]And it's very hard to draw the lines.
[23:10]I think there's probably in this economy
[23:13]a lot of women out there dealing with the same thing.
[23:15]So yeah, yeah.
[23:17]Well, anyway, do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[23:22]I guess I get my advice mostly from thinking about, you know,
[23:26]I was an aspiring author, like, 18 months ago.
[23:29]So it's very fresh.
[23:31]And I would say, just don't worry so much if it's bad,
[23:36]which sounds obvious.
[23:38]But if you are someone who has a full-time career
[23:41]and other family obligations and other life obligations
[23:45]and you're trying to write a book,
[23:47]you're probably a pretty ambitious person, I would imagine.
[23:50]And so you might be kind of in that perfectionist type A zone.
[23:55]And, you know, everyone can say, like,
[23:57]oh, just write the first draft and just vomit on the page
[24:00]and it'll get better later.
[24:01]I don't really like that either.
[24:02]Like, I feel like when I'm writing a first draft,
[24:05]I'm like, well, if I die and someone finds this,
[24:08]I want them to think I was as good as Heming might.
[24:10]Like, it's ridiculous.
[24:12]So with followers, I would get really, really down
[24:15]when I felt like it wasn't good.
[24:18]But you know what? It didn't matter because no one ever saw it
[24:21]until it was good.
[24:23]So I would say to aspiring authors, just keep that in mind.
[24:26]Like, if it's bad, no one's going to know.
[24:29]So let it be bad until it's good
[24:31]and then you can celebrate it.
[24:33]Nice. Here's the bad work.
[24:35]Yes.
[24:37]Thanks for coming on mom's time to read books.
[24:38]Thank you, Zippy.
[24:39]This was so fun.
[24:40]You've been listening to moms and have time to read books
[24:43]with Zippy Owens.
[24:44]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[24:46]at zippyowens.com to get more updates
[24:49]about episodes like these and also lots of live events.
[24:52]Thanks again to GoodPods for sponsoring this episode
[24:54]of moms don't have time to read books.
[24:56]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time
[24:59]to read books.
[25:00]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[25:03]for the Sound Editing.
[25:04]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[25:06]for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.
[25:09]Thanks for listening.
[25:10]You can always email me at zippyowens.com.