Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt, THE GIFT OF FORGIVENESS
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[1:43]podcasts. Hopefully like mine. Thank you. I'm doing a Skype today with Katherine Schwartz-Niger,
[1:48]Pratt, who is the best selling author of the gift of forgiveness, inspiring stories from those who
[1:53]have overcome the unforgivable. She's also the author of Bestseller Rock What You've Got,
[1:58]Children's Book, Maverick and Me. And I just graduated now what? She's an animal advocate,
[2:03]who serves as an ambassador for Best Friends Animal Society and the ASPCA. And according to her
[2:09]website, she calls herself a daughter, sister, wife, and stepmom. She currently lives in Los Angeles
[2:14]with her husband, Chris Pratt, the actor, and their family. Welcome, Katherine. Thanks so much
[2:18]for coming on mom. Don't have time to read books. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[2:22]Would you mind telling listeners what your latest book, the gift of forgiveness, is about and the
[2:27]subtitle is Inspiring Stories from those who have overcome the unforgivable. So I'm giving a little
[2:32]clue. But yeah, it's a collection of different interviews that I've done over the past two years
[2:38]with 22 really inspiring people who have practiced and struggled with forgiveness in different
[2:44]ways. And the goal with it is really just to have people read the book and be inspired to
[2:51]practice forgiveness in their lives. And when I personally was struggling with forgiveness,
[2:57]the most helpful advice to come from people's personal experiences with forgiveness and being able
[3:04]to apply their nuggets of wisdom to my own journey. So I wanted to turn it into a book to get as many
[3:11]people, you know, help in their forgiveness journey as possible. And tell me about what happened
[3:15]with your best friend in the introduction you talk about how some conflicts you had with her is
[3:20]basically what inspired you to go on this sort of quest for other people's ways of forgiving people.
[3:25]Can you say what happened? Well, I had a falling out with a best friend that really triggered
[3:30]my interest in forgiveness and also my curiosity around what forgiveness meant to me at that point
[3:37]in my life and figuring out how I struggled with it, what the role it would play in my life
[3:43]and how to practice it for me personally. So there have been a variety of different things in
[3:50]life in general that require forgiveness or bring up forgiveness. But for me, I felt like that was
[3:56]the point at which I was struggling the most with it. So I started wanting to kind of go and
[4:01]find books or inspiration or seminars that kind of died me through my forgiveness journey. And I
[4:07]found talking to other people about their journeys was the most helpful. And how did you
[4:12]select the 22 to include in the book? Did you interview way more people than this? But these are
[4:17]the ones you ended up with. And how did you, I mean, you range from a victim of Larry Nasser's to a
[4:23]man whose family was killed in the car accident, Elizabeth's smart mother of a Columbine. I mean,
[4:29]there it was all over the place. How did you find them and how did you choose?
[4:33]Well, I wanted to come up with a really great list of people who I thought had a variety of
[4:38]different ways that they have struggled with forgiveness or practice forgiveness because I think
[4:43]it speaks to how complicated the topic of forgiveness is for all of us and how all of us have
[4:48]such a unique relationship with forgiveness and a unique take on it and the role that it plays in
[4:55]our lives. So I myself kind of put together an ideal list of people who had, you know,
[5:04]spoke about forgiveness or people who had been referred to me about their forgiveness
[5:09]journeys and haven't necessarily spoke about it on a public level before. So I blindly reached
[5:13]out to a bunch of people and these 22 people all agreed to be a part of this project,
[5:18]really with the hope of sharing their story to help another person in their forgiveness journey.
[5:23]So I think because they all have a common desire and goal to be of help and have serviced other
[5:30]people in their forgiveness journey. It made the book that much stronger and also allows for us to
[5:36]end up with a book that had a really great variety of different forgiveness journeys,
[5:41]so I was really excited about that. And you mentioned in the book this term,
[5:45]conscious forgiveness. So let's say I'm struggling to forgive a friend or something.
[5:49]How can I practice conscious forgiveness? I think conscious forgiveness is really just like
[5:54]the idea that you are opening your life and your heart to forgiveness. There are so many people
[6:00]that I've encountered along the way that are very closed off to the idea of forgiveness in
[6:05]their life and, you know, and forgiveness with a specific person or a specific incident. And so I
[6:11]found that when you are even open to forgiveness in the first place is the first best step
[6:18]toward being able to practice forgiveness. And even when we have moments of, you know,
[6:23]triggers in our lives that take us back to feeling sad or angry about a specific situation
[6:30]and about incidents that had happened that we thought that we had practiced forgiveness with,
[6:34]I think, you know, it's important to be gentle with yourself in that process and to, again,
[6:39]have conscious forgiveness to bring you back to a place of living in a forgiveness mentality.
[6:44]So that's really what I mean by conscious forgiveness and making a choice to live in a place of
[6:51]forgiveness. And it's funny because sometimes when I think about forgiveness, it's what that will
[6:56]do for the other person. But forgiving actually has so many benefits just to yourself, which is
[7:01]something that you might not necessarily consider when debating whether or not to forgive someone. I
[7:05]don't know if people even have this consciously top of mind, like will I or won't I forgive this
[7:09]person? But I think how you shine the light on sort of, you know, like in particular, Chris Williams
[7:15]is essay when you say holding on to anger is like keeping the wound fresh and open, you never give
[7:20]a chance to heal, right? Like if you hold on to the pain, it's your loss as well. So tell me more
[7:26]about that. Right. Yeah. I think that well, for me, I kind of went into this book feeling just like that
[7:33]that forgiveness was something that I was going to be giving to another person and that comes with
[7:37]a lot of really complicated feelings because you feel like, okay, if somebody just caused me harm
[7:43]or pain and I'm giving them a gift of forgiveness or I'm giving them something, then what is
[7:49]the purpose of that? And like, why would I do that because they just inflicted pain upon me? So
[7:55]it's a confusing thing. But then when I started doing this book and talked to a lot of the amazing
[8:00]people in this book, I was, you know, quickly told and explained to you that forgiveness has
[8:06]nothing to do with giving another person anything. It is only about giving yourself a gift and
[8:11]that is the gift of forgiveness. So I think when we're able to shift our mentality and allow ourselves
[8:17]to really understand what the rule of forgiveness plays in our lives and see that it is a gift
[8:25]that we're actually only giving to ourselves. And while it might have, you know, a great ripple effect
[8:31]on people surrounding our lives, it's not a gift that you're giving to anyone but yourself
[8:37]and not as a gift of freedom. So when I was able to kind of shift that mentality in my head,
[8:42]it really allowed for me to be able to welcome forgiveness into my life in a totally different
[8:48]way that felt much more empowering and much more, you know, much more like I was taking my power
[8:55]back and I was in control than me giving anybody any gift per se. I love that. And it's so
[9:01]important. I feel like, especially with all of us now at home, I mean, we have all this extra time
[9:06]perhaps to reflect, right? Like, what are my flawed relationships? What grudges am I keeping? Like,
[9:11]maybe there's some way. It's almost, it's nice. Like, it's a, you know, it's like shedding a layer of
[9:16]clothing, right? Taking off all those, all the baggage of the people you haven't forgiven, even for
[9:21]tiny slights, right? As opposed to massive things like some of the ones in your book. So I think
[9:25]your book is particularly useful at a time like now and when we can sort of go inside more and
[9:31]think things through, like, this is such a, like your gift of forgiveness is something you can
[9:35]actually give everybody right now. So it's perfect. Yeah, it's actually interesting because I think
[9:40]when I came out with my book a couple of weeks ago, it was kind of just at the beginning of
[9:44]this whole coronavirus pandemic, which is, you know, been really challenging for a huge amount
[9:51]of people and there are many people who are at home in quarantine and then, of course, a lot of
[9:55]people who are not able to be at home in quarantine and are working and are in hospitals
[10:00]really on the front lines. And so I have nothing but respect for all of them. And I think
[10:06]a lot of people who are at home and in quarantine and are having all of this time and
[10:14]solitude or time with their family or whoever they're with, it's giving people a lot of
[10:20]time to reflect on ways that they can better themselves that we normally would never give
[10:25]ourselves in our fast-paced society. So I think the silver lining there definitely is that
[10:31]we might be able to focus on things like forgiveness and you know who we might need to still
[10:37]forgive in our lives that normally had we not been put in this quarantine or state of you know
[10:43]being locked in our health and not being able to do anything, we never would have really
[10:47]sat down and given ourselves the time to think about. So I think that there's a little bit of beauty
[10:52]have you thought of anybody new you can forgive or have you basically crossed everyone off your
[10:57]list in the process of writing this book? I definitely don't have deep dive of forgiveness while
[11:02]writing this book so but I'm always excited to be able to talk to people and to kind of grow and
[11:09]continue to learn when it comes to forgiveness which I think is really important. And I love how
[11:13]at the end of the book you even include like a fill in fill in your own letter to someone type of
[11:18]activity that you can do to you're like totally empowering the reader to not just like read the book
[11:23]but then have an actionable response at the end which I think is great right because that's really
[11:27]what you are trying to I mean I'm assuming that what you're trying to do and you can speak to this
[11:32]is trying to get other people to benefit the way you have right? Yeah I mean I think that one
[11:37]thing that I really realized in my two two and a half years of writing this book and working on
[11:41]this project is that when you bring up the word forgiveness with people whether it's somebody that
[11:47]you know really well or someone that you don't know at all when you you know talk about forgiveness
[11:54]it's not something that you know obviously we're sitting around talking about frequently and oftentimes
[12:00]people go back to a specific incident that you know that they need to work on or that's still
[12:07]troubling them or maybe they didn't know it's still troubling them and so it's been really
[12:11]interesting to me to see reactions from people where you know you say I'm working on a book on
[12:17]forgiveness and people go back to somebody who bullies them in high school and it's been 30 years
[12:21]and they realize that they're still not over it or you know someone that hurt their feelings five
[12:25]years ago or wrongs them five years ago and that they realize that they still are carrying that
[12:30]around and really want to let that go so it was important to me to be able to have that blank page
[12:36]section at the back of the book because after reading all of these people's stories you will be
[12:42]you know you certain people's stories will resonate more with you than others and you will also
[12:46]be triggered to think about specific people or situations in your life that might you know be helpful
[12:53]to have a place where you could write down their names write someone specific a letter you know
[12:57]or just kind of get your thoughts flowing when it comes to your forgiveness journey so it felt
[13:04]helpful to kind of have that in there. And I loved how you included Deborah Copaykin's story.
[13:08]Deb was on my podcast and I adore her and we've become friends but her essay about how well not
[13:14]not her essay your chapter about how she forgave her rapist from years before and reached out
[13:20]and wrote him a letter after so many years and how your point of that whole chapter is there's
[13:24]no time limit on forgiveness so it doesn't have to be something that happened in the last couple
[13:28]years but even something from your way back in the day can be beneficial to sort of
[13:33]assume and then sort of address even now. Yeah I think it's really encouraging for people to be
[13:39]to hear that you know someone like Deborah Copaykin wrote her rapist a letter and was able to
[13:46]process forgiveness 30 years later and when I had asked her that you know I said like oh do you
[13:51]wish you had done this sooner she was like no I don't because I would not have been able to be
[13:55]ready for it or have welcomed it in my life any earlier than what I've been able to do now so I think
[14:03]it's a lot of us feel I think like oh you know I haven't been able to practice forgiveness with
[14:08]this person and it's been you know five years or ten years and will I ever get there and to be
[14:13]able to see that there are people who are you know still struggling with it people who get there
[14:17]after 15 years 30 years whatever it is or 50 years and it's still okay to do that and that to me
[14:24]was really encouraging because it shows that there's no time limit on your forgiveness journey
[14:30]and it's not about you know hurrying up and doing it you know the week that something happens
[14:35]or the day that something happens you really do it in your own time. What should we do if there's
[14:39]someone who hasn't forgiven us like let's say there's some of this is about control right like
[14:44]I'm taking the control back on the incidents that have happened and by forgiving someone it's
[14:49]essentially like you know I'm taking ownership of my part in this and I'm closing the loop on
[14:55]this incident because I've forgiven it so now I've in my head put it to bed right and it's lifted
[15:00]this load from me but what if somebody hasn't forgiven me now I'm trying to think of somebody who
[15:04]maybe hasn't forgiven me I have a couple things I'm stewing about in my head but is there anything
[15:09]aside from knowing them a copy of your book what can we do? I mean I think it's really about after
[15:15]you ask where someone else's forgiveness is really then about you know you practice things
[15:20]self forgiveness which is incredibly challenging and we talk a lot about that in the book because
[15:25]it is such a complicated topic and and it's one that people you know most of us struggle with
[15:30]throughout our entire lives so I think once you've asked someone for forgiveness and that's totally
[15:36]up to them and and you know what they decide to do or how they decide to handle it and then at the
[15:41]end of the day you can't control another person so you really have to just focus on self forgiveness
[15:45]and that is really the only place to go to after you've asked someone else and realize that it's
[15:52]not in your control any longer. So at the end of the book you say and I'm going to quote you
[15:56]I'm a different person today because of the stories in this book and now that you've read it
[16:00]perhaps you are too so how did the book change you and here's my assignment is try to answer this
[16:05]question without using the word forgiveness. I mean the book has changed me because it's shown me
[16:12]other people's experiences and other people's journeys that have broadened my view of a variety
[16:19]of different ways to live life welcome certain things in your life be closed off a certain thing
[16:25]in your life and how being open to certain acts of empowerment and power in yourself self power
[16:37]self it really focuses a huge amount on how to use the word forgiveness because that's what the
[16:42]book is about but it really opens it opens your view on how complicated the topic of forgiveness
[16:49]really is and also allows yourself to be really encouraged to be able to practice it in a variety
[16:55]of different ways so I think it shows you and it showed me really that that all of these people
[17:02]were so willing to open up to me and be vulnerable and just express themselves and go really
[17:09]deep into their you know pain and heartache and experiences just to be able to give other people
[17:16]the gifts of their journey and their experience with forgiveness so I think it showed me that
[17:21]that writing this book showed me how much I had to learn when it came to forgiveness how many
[17:28]types of ways there are to practice it and to not practice it and just struggle with it and
[17:33]you know coming out with this book and talking to different people has really allowed me to see
[17:38]how needed the conversation around forgiveness really is so it's all been a really you know
[17:45]dramatically life-changing experience for me and who's been really moving and emotional for me
[17:51]to be able to see people connect to the topic that this book is really about I love that that's
[17:58]amazing can you talk to your process of writing the book how long did it take and like where did
[18:04]you like to write it and help you know what was your process like yeah I mean I tend to be most
[18:08]productive in the morning so I tried to do a lot of my work early in the morning and I'm an
[18:14]early riser so that helps me a lot and I would kind of put myself I would make myself structured
[18:21]hours so whether it was working from 8 to 3 or from 7 to 3 I you know whenever I would be able
[18:30]to have structure in my life that really helps with a writing process because I think anybody
[18:35]that you cross to that the writer will tell you sometimes that you know not having structure in your
[18:42]day can make the whole process much more challenging so I do really well with structure so I kind
[18:47]of help it helps to have that and to be held accountable and I would also try and have you know
[18:54]friends who are also writing that we could all sit and write together so we would hold each other
[18:59]accountable for getting things done and when I would do the interview with people I was really
[19:04]just depending on other people's schedule so you know whether it was doing interview over the
[19:08]phone or going and meeting somebody and doing interview in person it was a really amazing experience
[19:14]and one where you know a lot of the time after an interview I needed to sit and digest the information
[19:20]and sit with all of these incredible stories and inspiring stories and see how they resonated and
[19:26]sat with me in my life so it was a great experience and a different one than my previous book so
[19:32]it was an eye opening one for sure. And do you have more books in you do you have any other projects
[19:37]on the horizon? I mean I hope so I'm really focusing on you know making sure that this book is
[19:44]my priority right now because I've worked on it for two and a half years and anybody who's
[19:48]done a book will tell you that birthing a book is a really wild process and one that you put
[19:56]a huge amount of time and energy and work into so I want to meet.
[20:00]sure to, you know, not get off focus and go try and work on another book right away
[20:05]because it's really important to me to, you know, do these 22 people there and be able
[20:11]to, you know, spread the message that they put in this book and talk about their book.
[20:16]I mean, talk about their stories and talk about this book in a really important way
[20:20]because I think it's really needed especially right now, even though we're all at home.
[20:23]So that's my main focus right now, but I definitely hope to do more books in my future.
[20:29]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors? I mean, I would tell them to, you know,
[20:33]to work hard at it and that if somebody doesn't believe in your, in your idea or your desire
[20:39]to write something specific that keep trying because it only takes one person to, you know,
[20:45]say yes and then also there are a huge amount of people who are doing self-published books now anyway.
[20:49]So I think it's a really exciting time for writers and for authors and in empowering time as well.
[20:55]Thank you so much and I hope that my podcast can help a little bit and getting the
[21:00]message of your book out and, you know, I'll do my part because I think that I think that the
[21:04]message of your book is really fantastic and that the stories inside, like you said, are,
[21:08]you know, they make you stop in your tracks and think about your life and what it means to
[21:13]sort of love and forgive and, you know, really just interact with others and it's really a beautiful
[21:18]book especially for now. So I really thank you for writing it and bringing these stories to life
[21:22]and letting me help you usher it out out out there in the small way that I can. So. Awesome. All right.
[21:29]Thank you so much. All right. Thanks a lot. Bye bye.
[21:32]You've been listening to moms don't have time to read books with Zibi Owens. Please make sure
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[21:51]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing and thank you to
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[22:01]You can always email me at zibiatzibiowens.com.