Special Re-Release: Carla Naumburg, HOW TO STOP LOSING YOUR SH*T WITH YOUR KIDS
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[1:19]Thanks so much for being a sponsor. Okay, I don't know about anybody else,
[1:23]but it is hard being at home with all the kids and no school
[1:27]and life and work and everything. So I thought I would re-release this
[1:31]episode with Carla at Nomburg called, how to stop losing your
[1:35]shit with your kids. It's so funny. It's so good and it really has specific
[1:41]actionable tips that I have taken when I feel like I'm about to implode.
[1:46]It's about managing your own triggers and not letting yourself get to that
[1:50]point. And when you do get to that point, what you should do about it.
[1:53]And if there is ever a time where this book is helpful,
[1:56]it is now while we were all stuck at home. So enjoy it,
[2:00]take Carla's tips for what they are. Try to implement a few of them and
[2:05]know that you are not alone with the lack of patience and that we will all get
[2:09]through this and just be kind and try to keep, try to keep it together.
[2:15]Enjoy the episode. I'm here today with Carla Nomburg, PhD, who's a writer,
[2:20]speaker, and clinical social worker. And the author of How to Stop Losing Your
[2:23]Shit With Your Kids, a practical guide to becoming a calmer, happier parent.
[2:27]She's also the author of two other mindfulness books. She's contributed to the
[2:31]New York Times, The Washington Post, Half Post, and Mindful Magazine.
[2:34]She currently lives with her husband and two daughters outside of Boston.
[2:37]Welcome Carla. Thanks so much for coming on Moms. Don't have time to read books.
[2:41]I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
[2:44]So I have to tell you my daughter, who's fine. Now she's six now,
[2:48]loves the title of your book. I think she thinks it's like the funniest thing.
[2:51]And I told her this morning, I was interviewing you and she's like, oh my gosh, that's amazing.
[2:56]She may sneak in at some point, but you have a lot of fans. Perhaps I lose my
[3:00]shit with my kids too often and they think it's funny, but I just wanted you to know.
[3:05]One of my friends was reading this book and her daughter who I think is in second grade
[3:08]found it and was like, when is she going to write a book called How to Stop Losing Your
[3:13]Shit With Your Parents? That's the one I need. Oh, that's funny. I like that.
[3:18]That is cute. So tell me how to stop losing your shit with your kids is about and what
[3:24]inspired you to write it. So, you know, it's basically what it says it is. It's a book exploring
[3:30]how we parents can be more patient and present and not exploded our children quite so often.
[3:36]And it also talks about what to do after the inevitable explosion happens because we're all
[3:43]going to lose it sometimes. I mean, I wrote the freaking book and I still lose it with my kids
[3:46]sometimes. And that's okay. That doesn't make you a bad parent. It's not a problem to be solved.
[3:51]It's just part of reality with kids. But if you feel like your temper is becoming sort of the
[3:57]predominant way that you're interacting with your children or you're exploding on a daily basis
[4:04]or just more often than you're comfortable with this book might be helpful for you.
[4:08]And the way I came about it, I don't know. I guess the topic of this book has basically been
[4:13]my personal and professional life's work for the past 11 years. I mean, I have two daughters. My
[4:19]older daughter is almost 11 and God helped me if I call her 10 years old. And my younger daughter
[4:25]is nine. And parenting is hard, man. It's really hard. And, you know, before I had the kids,
[4:31]I really wasn't a yellow, except maybe at my sister in high school, but that totally doesn't count.
[4:36]And I found myself exploding at my kids. And I was like, ooh, this is not awesome. And it's
[4:41]was when they were little. They were so little. And I was yelling at them. And you'd think that
[4:46]as a clinical social worker, I would totally know how to handle this. And yet there was one night
[4:51]that I refer to in the book when it got so bad. I think my girls were like two and three years old
[4:56]that I sat down and literally started googling. How do I stop yelling at my kids? I mean,
[5:01]I have a PhD in clinical social work and I couldn't figure it out. And to that night sort of
[5:06]set me on this journey that took a few years. But I finally came up with a few ideas and practices
[5:11]strategies that have been really helpful. And that's where the book came from.
[5:15]That's amazing. I love it. And it's such a helpful book. You start with six truths that will
[5:21]help you keep your shit together instead of losing it. So I just wanted to run through those and
[5:25]ask you about a few of them. So your six truths are one, parenting is hard.
[5:30]Two, every parent loses their shit sometimes. Three, contrary to what you may think, you probably
[5:35]haven't broken your children for even so losing your shit sucks. It's not a matter of willpower.
[5:42]And six, you can learn how to lose your shit a whole lot less often. So the one I want to talk to
[5:47]you about first is number five, it's not a matter of willpower. Because I feel like, you know,
[5:51]I have four kids and sometimes I try hard not to lose it, but sometimes you just do. And I feel
[5:57]like, oh, only I had tried harder. So tell me how it's not only about willpower and there's more
[6:03]to it than that. Oh, yeah. Look, willpower, I met, I met a mom once who was like, you know,
[6:09]I just decided to stop yelling at my kids and I stopped. And I was like, what, what, I don't
[6:15]always speak in the same language. Like, are you a human? If I turn you around and open like
[6:19]the little door on your back while I push buttons and there's like little wires in back.
[6:22]Because I don't understand how that works. Because if I could have done that, I would have done
[6:27]that. That's what I call a code of what a strategy. Look, willpower is kind of like a muscle.
[6:34]And when we use it too much or even at all over time, it gets tired. And by the end of the day,
[6:40]it basically doesn't work, which is why we stand in front of the fridge trying to decide what to
[6:43]eat. We end up like, you know, eating chips for dinner. Because it even takes willpower
[6:48]to make a decision like, should I eat this or that? Should I get out of bed or should I hit,
[6:53]you know, the snooze alarm? All these little things we do during the day, am I going to fight
[6:56]with my kid about the shoes or let him wear flip-flops to school? Every single little thing,
[7:01]you know, takes willpower. And by the time we get to the end of our day, we're exhausted,
[7:06]we have numb left. And that's often when parents are losing it with their kids.
[7:10]The other thing is that our willpower is a function of our prefrontal cortex, which is the part of
[7:14]our brain that's sort of right behind our forehead. And I think of it as the adulting part of
[7:19]our brain. So that's the part of the brain that helps us make good decisions and moderate our motions
[7:24]and plan ahead and stay calm even when it's hard. And when we are triggered, which is something
[7:31]I talk a lot about in the book. And my super clinical definitions, very scientific here,
[7:36]as it be, is my super clinical definition of being triggered is anything that makes you more likely
[7:41]to lose it with your kids, right? So when we are triggered, we're more likely to lose it with
[7:45]our kids. And when we are triggered, it essentially sends us into what I call the fight, flight,
[7:50]freeze or freak out response, which lights up our limbic system, which is sort of like the toddler
[7:56]part of our brain. You know, we're born with it. It's there to keep us alive. It puts us into survival
[8:02]mode. And when our limbic system is online, our prefrontal cortex goes offline. So when we are
[8:09]triggered by any number of a million things that can trigger us, whether it's chronic pain or a
[8:15]stressful interaction with a colleague at work, or we haven't slept in like a decade, or, you know,
[8:21]we have to pay a bill and we're not sure where we're going to find the money to pay that, or,
[8:24]you know, a difficult phone call from a family member or, you know, you stubbed your toe. It doesn't
[8:29]matter. When we are triggered, our limbic system is more likely to come online. Our prefrontal cortex
[8:35]goes offline and willpower. See ya. So we really want to set up these strategies and systems and
[8:42]that are going to make all that less likely to happen because when we focus on willpower,
[8:46]that's kind of a set up for failure in a lot of cases. By the way, I love how on Instagram,
[8:51]you're always like, I just got back from whatever situation full of triggers. Like you're always,
[8:56]it's no, I love it. It's so awesome because you're just so open about it. Right? Like,
[9:00]trigger city, this is what's going on. So it's like, yes, some situations are just, they're, you know,
[9:06]their mind fields for your own sort of sanity. I mean, I think that's one of the things I
[9:11]was expecting the least as apparent was that my own sort of emotional regulation would have to be
[9:17]so fine tuned to deal with the constant inputs, really, of all these changing things, right? I mean,
[9:23]it's a lot. And you know, it's not that way for everyone. My husband, thank the Lord for the
[9:27]sanity of our home is not this way. And what I've learned over the years is that I am what some
[9:31]researchers call a highly sensitive person. And this is sensitive not only in terms of like,
[9:38]what's going on with this other person, like kind of relationally in tune to people, but
[9:43]loud noises are triggers for me. People touching me as a trigger for me and anybody who's spent
[9:47]five minutes with a toddler knows and baby, they're, they touch you all the time. And as much as
[9:52]you love that touch, it's a trigger. Strong smells are a trigger. I don't like most foods,
[9:57]not a fan of flavor over here, which my poor.
[10:00]or foodie husband dies.
[10:01]I think a little bit every time I'm like,
[10:03]ooh, can we just have something really,
[10:04]like don't, don't spice the chicken.
[10:05]I'm the same way, just like, oh my gosh.
[10:08]And big emotions.
[10:10]I feel all the feelings.
[10:12]Somebody I think described it as having your nervous
[10:14]system kind of on the outside of your skin.
[10:16]I feel all the feelings all the time.
[10:18]And a lot of this exists in my body.
[10:20]So what I talk about in the book is that triggers make
[10:23]your buttons big and bright and super sensitive
[10:26]and all lit up.
[10:27]And is anybody who's ever been an elevator
[10:29]with a little kid knows they see a button and they push it
[10:32]and then they push it again.
[10:32]And then, you know, we'll be standing on the sidewalk
[10:34]and the girls are like pushing the crosswalk button 27 times
[10:36]until I freak out and explode at them.
[10:38]But I've had to learn what I need to do
[10:42]to get my buttons dim again.
[10:43]So they're not so pushable.
[10:45]And since for me, moving my body,
[10:47]like exercise every day has become basically a non-negotiable
[10:51]and worth the point now where the girls will look at me
[10:53]be like, mommy, you seem kind of grumpy.
[10:55]Have you exercised today?
[10:56]And I kind of want to kick them in the teeth.
[10:58]But I don't.
[10:59]I don't have them and they're right.
[11:01]So yeah, trigger town USA over here.
[11:04]That's interesting.
[11:05]I also have like passed the test for highly sensitive person
[11:09]read the book.
[11:09]I relate.
[11:11]Well, which is why we both love books so much.
[11:13]Because those are like not triggers totally sensitive people.
[11:17]Totally.
[11:18]I kind of wish I had been a therapist as well.
[11:21]But so tell me about you came over these two acronyms
[11:24]in your book, Farts, Farts are fart and burp, fart,
[11:28]feelings, automatic, reactive, and toxic,
[11:30]and burp, which I forgot to write what that stood for.
[11:33]So tell me about these two and how we're
[11:35]supposed to use these to help ourselves.
[11:37]Yeah, look, first, I want to explain why I chose these words.
[11:40]A big part of this book, I didn't include all this profanity
[11:43]and potty talk in the book just for fun,
[11:45]although it was pretty fun and that helped.
[11:47]But I want to constantly remind parents
[11:49]that this parenting thing is far too serious
[11:52]to be taken seriously.
[11:54]We have to laugh at ourselves.
[11:55]We have to remember how ridiculous this is.
[11:58]I mean, I remember when my daughters were really little
[12:00]before they were potty trained.
[12:01]And I was thinking to myself, there are people on this planet
[12:04]other than doctors and nurses and health care workers
[12:07]who don't regularly come in contact with other people's
[12:10]bodily fluids.
[12:11]They just don't.
[12:12]And yet that is literally my life all the time.
[12:15]And I just, I think we have to be able to laugh about it
[12:18]and stay silly and remember that it's all so crazy.
[12:22]And that's the beauty of it.
[12:24]And it's also the challenge of it.
[12:26]So the acronym FART is one I use to kind of describe some
[12:29]of the features of a parental meltdown, let's say.
[12:33]Because look, if your kid is about to jump into like ongoing
[12:37]traffic and you reach out and grab them really hard
[12:39]and pull them on the street and maybe snap at them,
[12:41]I wouldn't actually call that like an inappropriate explosion.
[12:44]Like you were responding appropriately
[12:46]to the moment, to the intensity of the moment,
[12:49]keeping your kid safe.
[12:50]So let's talk about what are the features of the explosions
[12:54]that I'm worried about.
[12:55]Well, F is for feelings.
[12:56]Like obviously, there are a lot of emotions involved
[12:59]when we explode in our kids.
[13:00]Now, the thing is we may or may not be aware
[13:02]that we're having those emotions.
[13:04]So there could be anger, guilt, powerlessness, shame,
[13:08]anxiety, frustration, confusion, all of these or some of these.
[13:13]And they may or may not have anything
[13:14]to do with our children, right?
[13:16]It could be something that happened at work
[13:18]or maybe another mom at pickup gave us some weird look
[13:21]or sent to snarky email and we're like,
[13:24]we're still kind of processing that,
[13:26]but there's emotions somewhere happening for us.
[13:29]And one of the things that I think many of us think
[13:32]is that we can somehow control our feelings.
[13:34]That we can like choose to be happy or choose to feel better.
[13:37]And I just, I call BS on that.
[13:39]You can't control your feelings.
[13:41]And no feeling is ever wrong.
[13:42]That's what we talk about in our family.
[13:44]The behaviors, right?
[13:45]Those may be problematic.
[13:47]But every feeling is okay.
[13:49]So adverse for feelings.
[13:50]All right, A is for automatic.
[13:52]And this is just my way of pointing out
[13:54]that for most people, it's not like you walk in the door
[13:56]from work after a rough day and think,
[13:57]huh, today's a good day to lose my shit with my kids.
[14:00]I think I'm gonna go ahead and do that.
[14:01]Like we don't do that.
[14:02]It's, you know, once we are triggered,
[14:04]once our fight, fight, freeze, freak out response kicks in.
[14:07]It's a pretty automatic behavior that happens
[14:10]and it can happen very quickly,
[14:11]which is why it really is a practice.
[14:14]It's something we have to work on over and over again
[14:16]to get better at catching ourselves
[14:17]and stopping that response,
[14:19]which is something I talk about later in the book.
[14:22]R is for reactive.
[14:23]And all I'm saying here is that something has triggered this, right?
[14:27]We are reacting to something.
[14:29]And many of you may say, actually, I'm reacting to my kids.
[14:32]My kids are annoying.
[14:33]They're being obnoxious.
[14:34]They're nagging me.
[14:35]They're having meltdowns in public.
[14:36]They're mouthing off.
[14:37]They're being uncooperative, whatever it is.
[14:39]And I say, yeah, that's probably true,
[14:41]because that's what kids do.
[14:43]But the problem is, if we say, I'm only losing it
[14:46]because of my kid's poor behavior,
[14:48]then essentially what we're saying is,
[14:50]until my kid behaves better,
[14:52]I'm going to keep losing it.
[14:53]And we're letting our children's behavior control our own.
[14:57]And what every parent says to their kids is,
[15:00]you can't control anybody else's behavior.
[15:02]You can only control your own.
[15:03]Well, that's true for us too.
[15:04]So we need to figure out what we're reacting to,
[15:07]what is triggering us so that we can start
[15:10]to figure out a better way to respond.
[15:11]Okay, so that's R.
[15:13]And then is this idea that our parental explosions are toxic.
[15:17]And what I mean by that is that it's a disproportionate
[15:21]response to what's happening,
[15:23]and it's scary and confusing for the child.
[15:26]So if you grab your kid because they're about to run
[15:28]in the street, there's a pretty clear narrative
[15:30]about what happened there.
[15:32]Child was making an unsafe decision,
[15:34]parent reacted strongly to save their life, right?
[15:37]But let's say your kid spills the milk,
[15:41]and for you, when you were a kid spilled milk,
[15:44]caused a very strong reaction to your parents,
[15:46]they screamed, they yelled, they got really mad.
[15:49]And so you find yourself exploding over spilled milk,
[15:51]that's confusing and scary and pretty unpredictable
[15:54]and out of proportion.
[15:55]So your kid is gonna be like, what is the story here?
[15:59]And they're not consciously thinking this
[16:01]because little kids don't, but they get very confused.
[16:03]And they start to think that things are unpredictable
[16:05]and that small mistakes can cause major problems.
[16:08]So does that make sense for fart?
[16:10]Totally.
[16:11]No, it totally makes sense.
[16:12]And I love in particular what you just said about feelings
[16:14]and how there are no wrong feelings.
[16:16]And I feel like my kids, no matter how I try to mask them,
[16:20]if I'm upset about something,
[16:21]it's like they pick up on it right away.
[16:24]Like I try to be like, no, I'm gonna smile
[16:26]and pretend that this bad thing is not going on.
[16:29]No, it's like they can see right through me.
[16:31]It's like, it's freaky.
[16:33]Kids know us, they know us so well.
[16:35]And it really is an evolutionary thing for them.
[16:38]They literally depend on us for survival.
[16:41]And so the way they survive is they know,
[16:44]are every little thing.
[16:45]I mean, I raised an eyebrow the wrong way
[16:47]and my older daughter will be like, okay, what's wrong?
[16:49]And I'm like, oh, I don't wanna talk about this.
[16:51]But they really do know.
[16:53]And their fingers are perfectly,
[16:56]perfectly match for our buttons, right?
[16:57]And they find buttons.
[16:58]We didn't even know we had, they push, push, push.
[17:00]But yes.
[17:02]And the thing is, if we try to,
[17:04]I think we do our children to disservice
[17:06]when we try to hide our experiences from them.
[17:09]Because number one, it's confusing
[17:11]and it feels distancing when you're like,
[17:14]I know something is wrong with you,
[17:16]but you're not telling me.
[17:18]And the message we're inadvertently sending our children
[17:21]is you always have to put on a happy face.
[17:24]And Zibi, I think for you and me
[17:26]and for our mom listeners out there,
[17:28]this is a woman thing.
[17:29]And I'm not saying it's a woman, it's our fault thing.
[17:31]I'm saying it's a societal expectation of women
[17:34]that we always look happy, right?
[17:36]Smile more, don't, they always say that in the media,
[17:38]it's the politicians, you gotta smile more.
[17:40]I get very cranky about that.
[17:42]So I think it's okay.
[17:43]And obviously you wanna say things to your children,
[17:46]oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, backing up thought.
[17:48]I think the other reason why we do our kids
[17:50]at disservice when we try to hide feelings from them
[17:54]is not only are we teaching them
[17:56]that they should always be happy
[17:58]and if they're not happy, they should hide it
[17:59]or try to hide it.
[18:01]But kids are by nature very egocentric.
[18:05]They think the world revolves around them
[18:07]and they think that they are sort of the cause
[18:09]of everything and it doesn't mean
[18:10]they're little psychopaths.
[18:11]It's just developmentally very typical, very normal.
[18:13]And so if a parent consistently seems unhappy
[18:19]and the child doesn't have an accurate narrative
[18:22]to explain why they'll go with I did something wrong.
[18:25]Mom or dad has mad at me, I must have done something wrong
[18:29]and then that creates anxiety for them
[18:31]then they get triggered,
[18:32]they may be more likely to lose it, it's very confusing.
[18:35]So with my kids, you wanna frame your explanation
[18:39]in sort of a developmentally appropriate way.
[18:41]So you wouldn't say to like a four-year-old,
[18:43]I don't know, your grandmother was being a bitch to me
[18:45]and it really stressed me.
[18:46]Oh my God, I can't believe, but you might say,
[18:50]yeah, mommy's having a hard day.
[18:51]Like, I was really busy today
[18:53]and I got to had a lot of work
[18:55]and I'm pretty tired or whatever it may be.
[18:57]You don't wanna like, but now I'll say to my daughters,
[19:00]I had a really stressful day at work.
[19:02]I had a phone call that didn't go well
[19:04]or I don't know, because they're older now
[19:07]and they can understand.
[19:08]And so when it's appropriate,
[19:09]I'll try to give them a little more insight
[19:11]into what's going on.
[19:12]I love that.
[19:13]Excellent.
[19:14]Wait, so then what's burp?
[19:15]Oh, we gotta talk about burps.
[19:17]Zibi, I gotta tell you, I'm super proud of this acronym
[19:20]because I think it just really worked.
[19:22]Burps stands for button reduction practices.
[19:26]So one of the ideas in the book is that when we are triggered
[19:29]our buttons get big and bright and super pushable.
[19:33]And so burps are these basic practices, guys,
[19:36]this is really not rocket science here,
[19:39]that help those buttons get smaller, dimmer, less obvious
[19:43]and less pushable so that when our kids come along
[19:45]with their little fingers out, there's nothing to poke, right?
[19:47]There's nothing to push.
[19:49]So I've got like 11 practices
[19:50]and they're all pretty straight bored.
[19:53]It's things like getting enough sleep at night,
[19:54]stretching your body.
[19:56]So going for a walk, getting some exercise,
[19:58]doing some stretches, whatever it is.
[20:00]slowing down, right?
[20:02]We are much more triggered when we're rushing.
[20:04]And I have found that a lot of parents,
[20:06]and I don't know if this resonates with you,
[20:08]but I've gotten in the habit of rushing
[20:10]even when I don't really need to rush through transitions,
[20:13]I'll be like, we gotta go, we gotta go.
[20:14]We gotta go.
[20:15]And then I'm like, oh, we actually have several more minutes.
[20:17]We're fine.
[20:18]Part of that is I hate being late.
[20:19]But.
[20:20]I put all these false deadlines,
[20:21]and then I make us early.
[20:23]And they're like, why did you rush us so much?
[20:24]But I don't know.
[20:25]Yeah.
[20:26]But you've never been late.
[20:28]I know.
[20:29]I just, I need to talk to your person who hates being late.
[20:31]Yeah.
[20:32]Yeah.
[20:33]So slowing down is a big one.
[20:34]Having a lot of support.
[20:36]Support is a major burp, but in reduction practice,
[20:38]when you have the people around you,
[20:40]whether it's your best friends that you can text
[20:43]all the snarky videos to at the end of the night,
[20:45]or it's just the other parent that you're like,
[20:47]hey, I'm going to be five minutes late to school.
[20:48]Can you grab my kid and hang out?
[20:50]So anyways, I've got 11 of these different practices
[20:53]that can really help us kind of calm down,
[20:57]feel less stress, less tense, less kind of triggered.
[21:00]And they're very helpful.
[21:02]Awesome.
[21:02]So what do you do if you do lose your shit with your kids?
[21:07]So first of all, the first and most important step
[21:10]is to get calm.
[21:13]You have got to calm yourself down first
[21:16]because until you are calm,
[21:18]if you try to re-engage with your children,
[21:21]you're going to end up exploding at them again.
[21:22]And here's what this looks like.
[21:24]you're still triggered and you decide
[21:27]that it's time to go re-engage with your kids.
[21:30]And so you go over to them
[21:31]and you sort of do this kind of half-assed apology,
[21:33]which is like, I'm really sorry I lost it with you,
[21:36]but I asked you 27 times not to throw that ball in the house
[21:38]and then you ended up breaking my favorite base.
[21:40]And that's actually not an apology.
[21:42]That's just sort of losing it again
[21:44]and you're throwing the word sorry in there.
[21:46]And the other problem with trying to reconnect
[21:48]with your kids before you're calm
[21:50]is that if you go over there
[21:52]and you're expecting your child to apologize
[21:55]or you're expecting your child to say something nice to you
[21:57]and they don't do it,
[21:59]you're much more likely to explode at them
[22:00]because you're still triggered.
[22:02]So the first thing, not negotiable
[22:04]that you got to do after you blow up at your kids
[22:07]is you need to get calm.
[22:08]And two of my favorite strategies for that
[22:10]are getting curious about your own experience
[22:13]or having a lot of compassion for yourself
[22:14]because this parenting thing is really hard.
[22:17]And I give a lot of strategies for that
[22:19]because what I find is what most parents do
[22:22]after they blow up is they go into this like shame spiral.
[22:25]And they feel terrible.
[22:26]They're like, I'm a terrible parent.
[22:27]I can't believe I lost it with my kids again.
[22:29]I'm never going to get this right.
[22:31]They're going to be a mess.
[22:31]I better start funding the therapy jar now.
[22:34]You know, I used to go in the kitchen
[22:35]and just search for chocolate.
[22:37]That's what I would do.
[22:37]Just feel awful, shove the chocolate in my face.
[22:39]It didn't really help tasted good, didn't help.
[22:42]And so what I really encourage parents to do now
[22:45]is to find a way to calm themselves down
[22:46]with a whole lot of compassion.
[22:48]Curiosity can help if you can save yourself.
[22:50]What just happened?
[22:51]Am I tired?
[22:52]Am I hungry?
[22:53]Am I triggered?
[22:54]Is my child triggered?
[22:55]What do I need right now?
[22:56]You can actually get some actionable information
[22:58]about what's happening for you.
[23:00]And then you go apologize and reconnect to your child.
[23:03]And let me be very clear.
[23:05]I'm a big fan of apologizing.
[23:07]It's a thing in our family.
[23:08]And sometimes after the apology,
[23:10]there is another conversation about limit setting.
[23:13]I am sorry for my behavior.
[23:15]I shouldn't have behaved that way.
[23:17]You know, we love the eye messages,
[23:18]taking responsibility for our actions.
[23:20]And the other side of this coin kiddo
[23:21]that we need to talk about is that, you know,
[23:23]I was very clear with my expectations about your cell phone use
[23:26]and you didn't follow them.
[23:28]So we're gonna have that conversation now.
[23:30]So just because you apologize to a child,
[23:32]doesn't mean you can't then set limits with them.
[23:34]Interesting.
[23:36]So you have this one tip from actor Jack Black
[23:40]where he says, never give a happy child ice cream,
[23:43]which I just love that that was so funny.
[23:45]Are there any tips like that that you've gleaned from other people
[23:48]or having all your experience in your practice
[23:51]that you've really internalized?
[23:53]Yes, I would say there are two.
[23:55]First of all, yeah, the happy child ice cream
[23:57]has become like a mantra for my husband and I
[23:59]because we'll see the girls.
[24:01]They're happy they're playing,
[24:02]whether we're out of the house or in the house.
[24:03]And one of us will have this inclination
[24:06]to go over and play with them or offer them something
[24:08]or be like, let's do this.
[24:09]Let's increase their fun.
[24:11]And then the other parent will look at my partner
[24:13]or he'll look at me and be like, ice cream, ice cream.
[24:16]Like that's our little code for, leave them alone.
[24:19]Don't get involved, do not make eye contact,
[24:21]back slowly away.
[24:23]Don't try to add more joy on if they're already happy
[24:25]because inevitably you will lead to a meltdown.
[24:27]So the other two tidbits of wisdom I would say
[24:30]that have become really powerful for me is
[24:33]the first one was actually from my grandmother
[24:34]who was a mother of seven and many, many grandkids.
[24:37]And I called her up many years ago just a mess
[24:40]because I couldn't teach my girls how to swim.
[24:42]Every time I tried to bring them into the pool with me,
[24:45]they would cling to me like these terrified monkeys
[24:47]and we weren't getting anywhere.
[24:49]And she said to me, you know, Karla,
[24:52]it's not your job to teach your kids everything.
[24:54]You can't teach your kids everything.
[24:55]Go find someone else to teach them to swim.
[24:58]And that was like sort of this mind-blowing moment
[25:01]because I thought as the mother and the default parent
[25:04]because I was only working part time.
[25:06]So I was the one doing the drop-offs
[25:07]and the pickups and the whole on yards
[25:09]that it was literally my job to teach my kids everything.
[25:11]And I was like, when she said that,
[25:14]I really literally felt this burden
[25:16]lived for my shoulders like, oh, it's not my job.
[25:20]And guess what?
[25:21]We paid for someone else to teach them how to swim.
[25:24]And it was amazing.
[25:25]And they were not nearly as clingy and anxious
[25:26]with this other person.
[25:27]So it was fantastic.
[25:28]And you also say in the book,
[25:29]it's not your job to make your kids happy either.
[25:32]Like that's also not your full responsibility.
[25:34]Look, we are not responsible for our children's emotions.
[25:38]We're not responsible for anybody else's emotions.
[25:43]I mean, God, we're barely responsible for our own, right?
[25:45]It's not like we can control that.
[25:47]So look, we live in a culture of,
[25:50]with a glorifies happiness, right?
[25:52]We should all be happy.
[25:53]Happiness is the goal.
[25:54]And if we're not happy,
[25:55]it's because we're not working hard enough
[25:57]or doing the right things to be happy.
[25:59]And what I would say to parents is again,
[26:02]I call baloney on that one.
[26:04]Because like really unhappy things happen in life,
[26:07]whether it's a scary diagnosis or a car accident
[26:10]or again, a bill we can't pay or a divorce
[26:13]or what, like, there are things that are really
[26:16]legitimately good reasons to be unhappy.
[26:18]And I think it's okay if we feel unhappy
[26:20]and I want my kids to learn that.
[26:23]So, you know, of course I want my children
[26:25]to be happy when they grow up,
[26:26]but more important than that,
[26:28]I want them to know that they can keep functioning
[26:31]and know what to do when they are unhappy
[26:33]or when they're having difficult emotions.
[26:34]So yeah, it's not my job to keep my kids happy.
[26:37]It is my job to keep them safe.
[26:38]It is my job to teach them what they know.
[26:40]It's my job to be present with them
[26:42]as often as I can without losing it
[26:44]because too much and I lose it.
[26:46]But their emotional state is not my responsibility.
[26:50]I hope that makes sense.
[26:51]This is all just such amazing advice.
[26:53]Like an advice I wish I had heard a few years ago,
[26:56]I have my older kids or 12 already.
[26:58]And obviously, as you can see,
[26:59]I have my little daughter here who's six
[27:01]and then I'm almost five-year-old.
[27:03]And if I had read your book,
[27:04]I feel like when my kids were just starting out
[27:07]when I really felt I didn't have a handle on it,
[27:09]I would have been a far better parent,
[27:10]but anyway, whatever, we'll go from here.
[27:14]But also just to be clear,
[27:15]it's so easy for me to say all these things on a podcast, right?
[27:19]My kids are away at school.
[27:20]They're not here.
[27:21]I just went for exercise.
[27:23]I'm thinking pretty clearly.
[27:24]I've got my trusty coffee.
[27:26]It's easy to say all these things.
[27:27]In the moment, they don't come naturally.
[27:30]When I'm with my daughters and they're sad,
[27:32]my first inclination is I want to make the bad feelings go away.
[27:36]Of course, you know?
[27:37]And then I have to catch myself.
[27:40]I have to work hard and say no.
[27:41]It's okay for my daughter to feel sad.
[27:43]My job here is to not make her happy.
[27:45]My job is to sit with her and let her know it's okay to cry.
[27:48]But that is not my gut mommy response, right?
[27:51]And so if there are listeners out there
[27:52]who are like really struggling with this,
[27:54]yeah, come over, we'll hang out
[27:55]because I'm struggling with it too.
[27:57]You know, it's an, when I say it's a practice,
[28:00]I literally mean it's a thing we start out with
[28:02]being really bad at and the more we practice it,
[28:05]we get better, but this is the work of a lifetime.
[28:08]And how did you fit in writing this book
[28:10]in the midst of everything else?
[28:12]When did you do it?
[28:13]Like, where do you like to write?
[28:14]Do you write at home?
[28:14]Did you go out to write?
[28:15]How did the process look for you?
[28:17]Oh, it was a messy, messy process as all my writing is.
[28:22]Look, I would love to say that I'm one of those writers
[28:25]who's like, I get my kids off to school,
[28:27]then I make my coffee and I sit down at my desk
[28:29]and I write from nine and 10 to 12
[28:30]and then I have a healthy salad for lunch
[28:32]and then like that is, no.
[28:34]You know, I fit it in where I could
[28:35]and I try to write most days a week.
[28:38]I do write at my desk at home.
[28:41]I have a fantasy about having a little writing office
[28:43]somewhere, but it turns out nobody wants to give you
[28:45]that for free.
[28:46]You need to be ready.
[28:47]I'm rude, really, really, really, yeah.
[28:50]But the thing that kept me writing is that I had
[28:53]an editor and deadlines.
[28:54]So that was the thing that really helped me keep this
[28:57]a priority because otherwise it's a little harder
[28:59]to stay focused because I have kids who get sick
[29:03]and I have random events at school
[29:06]that pop up in the middle of the day.
[29:07]And they're like, we really need you here
[29:08]for this native American fair
[29:12]that we're going to announce today
[29:13]and can you bring 27 pounds of maize tomorrow?
[29:17]Or whatever.
[29:18]I'm like, that is not a thing you can buy
[29:21]and I don't know where to buy it.
[29:22]It's like, no, hey, listeners who know
[29:26]where my kids go to school, I love the school,
[29:28]I love the teachers.
[29:29]But I just want to be realistic that it was a lot
[29:33]to fit in, I had to work hard to fit it in.
[29:34]And there were some days when I would say
[29:36]to my husband, like, he'd walk in the door from work
[29:39]and I'd be like, I'm out, I gotta go to the library
[29:41]or somewhere and do work.
[29:41]So he was incredibly supportive
[29:44]and the teachers at my daughter's school
[29:46]made it possible for me to write this book
[29:47]because they kept them all day and taught them things.
[29:50]And while my kids were at school, I worked,
[29:52]I've always had a part-time job in addition
[29:54]to the writing.
[29:55]And so it's busy, but when you're doing what you love,
[29:58]it feels a little bit easier.
[29:59]And what advice?
[30:00]I said you have two aspiring authors
[30:02]who are trying to do this as well.
[30:04]I guess my first piece of advice is
[30:06]if you're in it for the money, find something else.
[30:08]It's very, very hard to make money writing,
[30:10]like real money that people can live on.
[30:12]But if you're a person like me
[30:14]who has always written and can't imagine doing anything else
[30:17]and this is the only way to scratch that itch,
[30:19]then you gotta do it.
[30:21]But you should probably have a job at the same time
[30:23]unless you have a winning lottery ticket.
[30:25]And the other thing I would say is read a lot
[30:28]in the genre you wanna write in.
[30:30]If you wanna write a parenting book,
[30:31]you gotta read the parenting books.
[30:33]You need to know what's out there,
[30:34]you need to know what's getting published,
[30:36]you need to know what the trends are.
[30:39]If you look in the New York Times bestseller list
[30:42]for sort of how to miscellaneous,
[30:44]there's a whole lot of books in there with swear words
[30:46]in the title and you bet your Toshi
[30:48]that that inspired me a little bit in this book, right?
[30:50]So you gotta follow the trends.
[30:52]And the other thing I'd say is right with the voice
[30:54]that is who you are and what feels most authentic.
[30:57]So my first two books did not have any profanity.
[30:59]They had a little bit of humor,
[31:01]but they were much more sort of straight-laced parenting books.
[31:03]And they're good books, but this book, this is me.
[31:06]You read this book and then you come meet me
[31:08]and you know the kind of conversation we're gonna have.
[31:10]And that doesn't work for everyone, right?
[31:13]So I was terrified to write this book
[31:15]because I, and I was talking to a friend
[31:17]and I was like, there are people who are gonna hate it.
[31:18]And I expected to be like, no,
[31:20]everybody's gonna love your book.
[31:22]And instead she said, yeah, there are people
[31:23]who are gonna hate this book.
[31:24]There are people who are not gonna wanna read this book.
[31:27]And those aren't your peeps.
[31:29]And that has to be okay.
[31:30]There are other parenting books for them.
[31:32]But there are people who have been looking for this book
[31:34]and haven't found it yet and they need it.
[31:35]And as soon as my friend said to me, yes,
[31:39]there are people who are gonna hate your book
[31:40]and it's gonna be okay.
[31:41]Like I was so liberated.
[31:43]So no, no matter what you write,
[31:45]somebody's not gonna like it, right?
[31:48]And that has to be okay.
[31:49]And the thing that will let you continue
[31:52]in that writing process is knowing
[31:54]that you are writing what's true for you.
[31:56]Something that is authentic and real
[31:58]that you really believe in.
[31:59]And that's what's gonna keep you motivated
[32:01]even knowing that it's a challenging process.
[32:04]And by the way, everyone I've mentioned your book too
[32:07]is like, I have to get that book right away.
[32:09]So my peeps appear to be your peeps.
[32:12]So, well, thank you so much for coming on the show
[32:17]and for writing your great book and for all this advice.
[32:20]And honestly, just being so real
[32:23]and showing all of us, like this is what it's like
[32:26]and it's okay and we don't have to be perfect.
[32:27]And I think the more that we all as a mom community
[32:31]sort of adopt that and feel better,
[32:33]the better off we'll be and the better our kids will be.
[32:35]Oh, thank you.
[32:37]And thank you for all the work you do
[32:38]to support authors and writers and books
[32:41]and support moms who think they don't have time to read.
[32:43]Yeah, you're welcome.
[32:45]All right, well, it was great to meet you.
[32:49]And thank you so much.
[32:50]You've been listening to moms
[32:51]and have time to read books with Zibi Owens.
[32:54]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[32:56]at zibiowans.com to get more updates about episodes like these
[33:00]and also lots of live events.
[33:01]Thanks again to Kiyuchi for sponsoring this episode
[33:04]of moms don't have time to read books.
[33:06]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time
[33:09]to read books.
[33:10]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[33:13]for the Sound Editing.
[33:14]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[33:16]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[33:19]Thanks for listening.
[33:20]You could always email me at zibiowans.com.