Jen Gotch, THE UPSIDE OF BEING DOWN
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[1:05]I'm so excited to be here today with Jen Gotch, who's the founder and chief creative officer
[1:09]of Band-O, the multi-million dollar lifestyle brand. She's a mental health advocate,
[1:13]reluctantly as you'll find out, and the author of the book The Upside of Being Down.
[1:18]How mental health struggles led to my greatest successes in work and life.
[1:22]She used to host the podcast, Jen Gotch is okay sometimes. She currently lives in Los Angeles.
[1:27]Welcome, Jen. Thanks for coming to you. I'm very excited to be here.
[1:33]I'm very excited to have you. Can you please tell listeners what the upside of being down
[1:38]is about? And I won't even read the subtitle because I don't want to give it away.
[1:41]Yeah, I also feel like the subtitle is really a hard one to get out. And when I have to say it,
[1:48]I'm just like, let's just call the upside of being down. I think we'll scratch it off.
[1:53]Yeah. Why do I even use it? So, you know, in my mind, it's a self-help memoir. And the intention
[2:00]of the book for me, which says it's thriller. That's amazing. It's a horror piece.
[2:07]Like part of the process was a horror piece. But the book itself was, you know, I wanted to
[2:13]share my stories in the hopes that it would help people that are struggling with mental health issues,
[2:18]feel less alone. Also, speak to entrepreneurs. And I share a lot about building my brand Band-O
[2:26]and then offer up some potential solutions along the way. And so really, the intention was just
[2:31]to build self-awareness in the reader. I feel like after 20 years of therapy had some wisdom that I
[2:38]wanted to impart and to do it in a way that I feel like my approach is probably more light-hearted
[2:44]than most for a difficult subject matter, but still in treating it with respect. So,
[2:51]yeah, I just wanted it like an accessible mental health memoir.
[2:57]And why now have you been thinking about this for a while?
[2:59]I feel like I've been thinking about writing a book since I was a child. And my editor
[3:05]actually approached me in 2015 to write the book, which I just didn't feel like it was the
[3:11]right time. I was very consumed with my business at the time. And through a series of emails
[3:17]over the years, we eventually synced up. I think it was like maybe mid-2018. And then I just like
[3:24]felt like I was in a better place with the business like to be able to take that time away. And
[3:29]had had so many more life, you know, married, divorced. The business had changed. I feel like
[3:36]it had gained more wisdom just in general. So it just felt like the time to do it. So it certainly
[3:41]was something I had always thought about, but I was really wanted to commit to it being the right
[3:46]time. Speaking of your divorce, when I went on your website, I learned more about you. And I'm just
[3:52]waiting for him to see that, which he may have heard. So on Jen's website, it says, my ex-husband has
[3:59]the password to my website. So I can't update it. I had to wipe the whole thing out. It's
[4:04]starting to spread. And then he went on and on. Like we have a nice relationship, but it's not
[4:09]really good enough for me to ask him for the password. So I've asked several times. He just,
[4:16]and like it is, it was like conscious on coupling. Like it's completely amicable. I mean, he lives
[4:21]in Australia now. So we don't like run into each other at the market. But it just couldn't seem
[4:27]to extract that one, one little bit of information. And it's been years. And finally, I was like,
[4:34]why am I, why am I pushing for something I'm never going to receive?
[4:39]Let's just, let's just do this. I can let go of the website that I really loved because I can't
[4:45]get in it in years of emails that I've no access to. And it was fine. But I just thought, I mean,
[4:51]it's pretty much a very aligned with who I am as a person to share. Just right out of the gate.
[5:00]Like this is so unbranded for her. But I did want to like get on the phone with customer service.
[5:05]And I'm like, I feel like I could figure this out for her. I feel like there's a work around here.
[5:09]I could do it. You tried everything. So I mean, so many things. And then I was just like,
[5:15]they're just, I feel like when you get to that point with anything in life, it's just like,
[5:19]why, yeah, maybe it's meant to be, yeah, maybe you needed to start from us. And this is
[5:23]agreed, you know, a sign from us or a sign from customers or a sign from my ex-husband.
[5:30]So in case people don't know what Bandau is, this is my biggest challenge in life,
[5:37]trying to describe what Bandau is because I feel like, well, I am just not great at like
[5:41]elevator pitches or short descriptions of anything. As you'll find the more questions you ask me,
[5:46]I could take a stab at answering. I will definitely have you do it. Like, I actually think that's
[5:51]fun to hear. But what I came to realize not that long ago is outside of the things that we can
[5:58]explain what it is. It really is a state of mind and like for me specifically. So I always have a
[6:04]hard time trying to encapsulate. It's like trying to put a cloud in a jar. It's just like, I,
[6:10]it's so much more than what it like physically is. But if I was to talk about what it physically
[6:15]is, it's let me say primarily a women's lifestyle brand. And we focus on sort of holistic
[6:23]betterment for lack of a better term and really work to evoke joy in our community through
[6:32]a lot of products that we make that I'm told are joy-voking. So I was going to say a lifestyle
[6:38]brand and a movement. I love that. So we're, I mean, I feel like towards joy. Thank you for saying
[6:43]that. Yeah, I feel like we're on the same page. Yeah, we've worked hard to get to that place,
[6:48]but that's what it is. Awesome stuff. Thank you. Yeah, I think it's, I feel like it's pretty great.
[6:54]And there have certainly been times where I've resisted. I think a few years ago when I was
[6:58]really trying to open up to like, open the brand up a little bit broader than just like fun. I was
[7:03]like, can we stop making products? Because I was like, I felt like I wanted it to be more
[7:09]content and like informational. They were like, we're consumer products business. Like we can't,
[7:14]we can't stop making. I was like, I will go to the warehouse and set the stuff on fire.
[7:19]And they're like, okay, please stay put. You're just having an emotional reaction. And they were
[7:26]right. So we were able to include some other items in our product line that I felt like we're
[7:32]much more like directly correlated to how I was wanting us to portray ourselves in a more
[7:39]clear way, instead of just being gobbled up by the fun. So do you feel like you have events and
[7:45]like things that you're super excited about now, totally in that direction? Yeah. Yeah. And I,
[7:50]and actually I think the book is going to be really helpful for that to give our community,
[7:55]especially like a better look at me and like sort of like the person behind this company and
[8:02]start to put it all together. Like, oh, I see it's like fun is a huge part of it. I feel like that
[8:08]comes through for me. It's a huge part of my life, but that there are all these other things too.
[8:12]So, and I think it's starting, like it's definitely clicking for people. But yeah, there's a lot
[8:18]that's in the works that will help. And certainly now after the products have sort of veered into
[8:23]that direction, we're really focusing on events like we have our community, even we did a
[8:29]warehouse sale out here last year. And just the way people show up for us and just like the people
[8:35]that come and like how diverse they are, but like that they're all sort of connected through this
[8:40]through line of just like wanting to feel accepted and happy is so energizing for us. So we're like,
[8:46]how can we do more of that outside of a warehouse sale, which is I think are the most stress-free
[8:51]warehouse sales that there are. And I've been told that, but obviously we'd like to do things
[8:57]not just around products. And I saw on your website, you sell some books too, including
[9:02]joyful. And I had, yeah, I love ingrid. She's done, she's actually done quite a few things for us.
[9:08]And she came and did a workshop for the girls at Bandel. Yeah, when I saw her TED Talk, one of the girls
[9:14]who works at Bandel, her mom sent it to her. And then she sent it to me. And I'm like, oh my gosh,
[9:19]she's explaining everything that we stand for in like a scientific way. Like we have to talk
[9:24]to this woman. She's so amazing. Yeah. I'm redoing my website now. And I'm like, oh, read all the parts
[9:31]of joy. Yeah. Like go through this matrix and let's include them all because it's so
[9:36]important to me. So you know, just that vibe of making people feel good. And I agree. I mean,
[9:41]I also think like you seem like someone who embodies that. So I feel like it's interesting to see
[9:46]when you just do what you're got. So as a man, like, like, oh my gosh, I'm like hitting all of those
[9:52]points. Like it just, yeah, if you haven't read that book, you should read it. I mean,
[9:56]read yours too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think that's a given. Please.
[10:00]It would be, it would be a gift to give somebody to the two of them.
[10:05]Yeah.
[10:06]Yeah.
[10:07]Especially for somebody who's a little bit sad.
[10:08]Yeah.
[10:09]Next thing I'm recommending books for somebody who's sad, these are going to be like,
[10:12]oh, good.
[10:13]It's a good packet.
[10:14]Great.
[10:15]It's like a good, the hard facts.
[10:16]And then me.
[10:17]I mean, different ways to bring joy.
[10:18]No.
[10:19]I mean, I mean, I would dress the last thing.
[10:22]I was particularly, I mean, I was interested in so much, but the entrepreneurial stuff struck
[10:26]a chord with me because I'm trying to like build up my new business and whatever
[10:30]myself.
[10:31]And you said something when you realize that you are sort of glamorizing success in a way
[10:34]that was unhealthy and that obviously you're not the only one who does this and everybody's
[10:37]talking about how busy they are all the time.
[10:39]And you wrote, being busy all the time is bullshit.
[10:41]Danger is bullshit.
[10:42]I know I said it twice, but that's how strongly I feel about this.
[10:46]That's really about the time.
[10:47]Yeah.
[10:48]Well, I think, you know, I also think there was so much energy around female founders and
[10:54]like business growth.
[10:56]And I was certainly a part of that like when that all started.
[11:00]And so there was so much about being busy.
[11:03]I mean, I hear it now.
[11:04]It's just like people are like, I know you're very busy or I'm so busy and I'm like,
[11:08]I'm actually not that busy.
[11:09]I'm like, I'm available.
[11:12]But you know, you're an obvious.
[11:14]Yeah.
[11:15]Yeah.
[11:16]Yeah.
[11:17]That's okay.
[11:18]But I feel like I understand my relationship to busyness now in a way that like the busier that
[11:21]I am is not indicative of like how successful I am as a person and also like what is
[11:26]success anyways.
[11:27]So I feel a lot better.
[11:30]And I think the reason why I was so emphatic about that is because it just for me and
[11:34]I think for many people, it's like mentally and physically very unhealthy.
[11:39]And the reality is like there's really only so much you can do on any given day or in
[11:44]your lifetime.
[11:45]And like the idea that if you just pack more in, you're going to get further.
[11:51]And I just don't now that I can look back on that.
[11:54]I think it's a very common feeling that entrepreneurs, especially when you're starting
[11:57]a company feel and I went through that, but it really took a toll on me.
[12:02]And again, I just feel like it's still not something that people talk about because I think
[12:08]that type of growth and success and like she's here one day and they're the next and it
[12:13]is still really being glamourized and I just, I don't think it's fair for people that
[12:18]are starting to think like that's, that's what I want to attain.
[12:23]So I'm working really hard to like debunk that whole thing.
[12:29]And do you really, you said in the book that you put fun in your calendar every Wednesday
[12:33]night from last night, is that true?
[12:35]It's, it's off the counter now because I have a much better relationship with sort of like
[12:39]personal boundaries and like understanding that like fun is an important part of your
[12:46]life.
[12:47]Like, you know, but I told the story about when when I went to the doctor and she was like,
[12:54]what do you do for fun?
[12:55]And I was like, what do you mean?
[12:57]I work and I'm like, my work is fun anyways and I'm very busy like I remember having
[13:02]this conversation.
[13:03]She sort of just looked at me like, you don't get it.
[13:07]She was like, you absolutely have to build like if you feel like you're tethered to your
[13:11]schedule, you have to put fun into your schedule.
[13:16]And then she went on to explain what fun was, which is so ironic because of the brand
[13:20]that I have, you know, I just was like, I felt like I was enjoying my life.
[13:25]So I didn't realize that there were times where I just would have to let go of all of that.
[13:29]So I had it in my calendar for many years.
[13:32]And then now I feel like I find all the time like, you know, I'm like very my relationship
[13:38]to all of that has changed so much.
[13:40]But I would highly recommend that, especially when you are starting, I mean, even or if
[13:45]you're at the end, I just think like way you can get very like, well, this is my schedule
[13:50]today.
[13:51]And I think just putting that in sort of helps you honor it and like gives it the weight
[13:56]that it actually deserves in life.
[13:59]Yep.
[14:00]And just that permission.
[14:01]Yeah.
[14:02]And not just for people who are working, but even just for like anybody who's just
[14:05]in general going through life and trying to cross things off the list all the time to know
[14:09]that like, okay, well, yeah, maybe today's not so fun.
[14:12]But Wednesday at 6 or 10, I'm going to be having a blast.
[14:14]Yeah.
[14:15]That makes it all worth it today.
[14:16]And I don't even think it, I think fun can come in many forms.
[14:20]Like I don't think it's like you have to go wild.
[14:22]I just, I feel like even with Band-O, I found early on that people really felt like fun
[14:27]fun is a juvenile thing.
[14:30]And I just never understood that in general.
[14:33]But I do think it's something we sort of deprive ourselves unless obviously I don't
[14:37]have children.
[14:38]But I know that my, you know, my friends that have children are getting like second
[14:42]hand fun because they're like taking their kids.
[14:45]But it's like what's really going to be fun for you and understanding that and doing
[14:49]it.
[14:50]I just think it's such an important thing to give yourself.
[14:52]Every so often, and I'm debating like the 8 million different decisions, right?
[14:56]And I'm like, I could do this and I could do this person here and I could do this and
[14:58]do this.
[14:59]Every so often, I'm like, what do I actually want to do?
[15:01]And I'm like, I don't want to do any of this things.
[15:03]This is what I want to do.
[15:04]And then if I actually do that, it's like everything is better changing on like everything
[15:09]is better.
[15:10]Yeah.
[15:11]I mean, it's a whole, I feel like for different reasons, I've been really focusing on that
[15:14]too.
[15:15]Like what do I want?
[15:16]Like what do I want or what do I need right now, which is like such a foreign concept
[15:22]for me.
[15:23]Usually like what does everyone else want?
[15:24]And that feels really good to serve them.
[15:26]And I'm like, I'm actually not doing what I want.
[15:31]And I'm kidding myself that sometimes what I want is something different.
[15:35]And like in doing it, it's been really interesting to give that permission across the board.
[15:39]Like absolutely, it's not just about fun.
[15:41]It's like maybe what I want is to go to sleep right now and everyone else wants me to
[15:44]go out to dinner or, you know, whatever.
[15:47]But I think it's like a really powerful thing to start to like, yeah, get in touch with
[15:51]that.
[15:52]You know what?
[15:53]I'm not sure even like going out to dinner anymore.
[15:54]Yeah.
[15:55]I don't either.
[15:56]Go out to lunch.
[15:57]Yeah.
[15:58]Why don't we go to breakfast?
[15:59]Yeah.
[16:00]Maybe I'm just not a go.
[16:01]Yeah.
[16:02]Well, I think it's like, I mean, that's the whole thing with self awareness.
[16:05]It's just like the more you can get in touch with yourself and understand like it just
[16:10]sets you up for just like a different life in my opinion.
[16:14]Like it's just, I've just seen so much connected to that.
[16:18]And like, I think if you don't have that, it's hard to even identify what you really
[16:23]want or need.
[16:24]So, so tell me about your mental health advocacy.
[16:26]Mm.
[16:27]Well, you know, it's funny.
[16:28]I feel like I'm certainly getting more accustomed to that title mental health advocate.
[16:35]But it, but it sounds good though.
[16:37]Yeah.
[16:38]It's not, I'm like very contrarian as a person.
[16:41]So like, I'm just like, that sounds like I'm in a group of people doing the same thing.
[16:45]Like my brain does something very strange with something that's awesome.
[16:49]Like it, and so I think I had to come to terms with that.
[16:52]And also it was all very inadvertent.
[16:55]Like I'm not necessarily like a goal person to be like, I want to do this or become
[17:00]this.
[17:01]Like everything has been like sort of semi accidental falling up.
[17:05]And so I think because it was such an informal thing for me, it was just like me doing
[17:12]what came naturally to me.
[17:14]I just had a hard time identifying with that now, obviously, written a book about it.
[17:19]I had a podcast about it.
[17:20]I certainly use my platforms to speak about it.
[17:24]So I feel like it's become going from something that I was sort of rejecting to like
[17:29]really being able to not only embrace it, but like feeling responsible in the best way possible
[17:35]to continue because I feel like I don't know if gift is the right word, but I'm just
[17:41]like have the luxury of not feeling any shame or stigma around it for myself.
[17:46]So it makes it really easy for me to share things that as it turns out are like very scary
[17:51]for other people to talk about like I just didn't, I didn't realize that.
[17:55]Like I honestly did not have a good sense of like mental illness, mental health and how
[18:01]it relates to like actually to society and people on an individual level.
[18:05]Like I was so just in my thing and have always just had the luxury of like really feeling
[18:10]safe with it.
[18:12]So so is it the kind of thing where you just would go up to whoever you're talking to
[18:16]and like share your like this is my medicine and this is what yes, yeah, probably.
[18:23]And now all of a sudden you're a mental health advocate and you don't know how you get
[18:27]here.
[18:28]It's kind of yeah, you just met me, yeah, that's exactly how I operate.
[18:33]Awesome.
[18:34]I love this one scene with your mom not to keep jumping around here, but when you were
[18:37]growing up, you had this quote, you had this very difficult, you know, fighting type relationship
[18:42]and you go fighting was our cardio and neither of us really like to exercise, which is
[18:46]one of my favorite things.
[18:47]It's like you didn't want to be fighting, but yeah, you got so much out of it, like it
[18:51]just, you know, and your grandparents actually, which is heartbreaking had this terrible
[18:56]suffering and Holocaust, which informed their parenting, of course, would be your mother
[19:00]and then her parenting of you.
[19:01]So you just wanted to have you done that for a second.
[19:04]Yeah, I'm still trying to find the bottom of that story, like I thought when I was writing
[19:11]the book, I'm like, oh, I figured it all out and now I'm like, oh, wait, there's more
[19:15]I can go deeper.
[19:17]But I think, yeah, obviously having an experience like that and my grandfather had a wife
[19:24]and children that were gone and so didn't meet my grandmother until after they had been
[19:30]liberated.
[19:31]But so certainly his relationship as a parent was distant.
[19:35]He was a wonderful man and that's a grandparent was like amazing.
[19:38]But like my mom always said, like there, you know, he obviously was not going to connect
[19:44]in a way that maybe someone who had not suffered that trauma, I mean, and also like given
[19:49]the time, like there was no access to any information or like, you know, and you know,
[19:53]my grandma was just like not an emotional person and was very just like hard.
[20:00]in sort of critical.
[20:02]And it's not that it didn't seem like she didn't love my mom
[20:05]or us, but like the tone of their relationship was not easy.
[20:10]And a lot of that was mirrored sort of a slightly
[20:15]different mirror into my relationship with my mom.
[20:18]And so I think it's like not necessarily
[20:21]about loving or not loving, but just like this is how
[20:26]I was related to from my parent.
[20:28]And I think that's a really hard thing to unwind from.
[20:31]And honestly, like part of the contributing factors
[20:35]to me not having children was like,
[20:36]I don't know that I'm not continued that legacy.
[20:39]And I just don't want to.
[20:41]Like I'd rather some of my life trying
[20:43]to figure some of that out.
[20:45]And I just didn't feel like the right thing.
[20:49]So not just say like, my mom made me not want to have children,
[20:52]but I just, it's like, I think that's hard.
[20:55]I mean, we're all affected by our parents,
[20:56]whether they're like descendants of people
[21:00]that have suffered major trauma,
[21:01]or their parents had a great life.
[21:03]They're still inadvertent damage that can be done.
[21:07]And I think that's also like a big theme of the book.
[21:09]It was like, I had great parents.
[21:11]And they certainly were not like,
[21:13]they were not trying to hurt me in maybe in the way
[21:15]that I was hurt, but I was still hurt.
[21:19]So it's like, I don't feel resentment,
[21:21]but it's like still something that needs to be dealt with.
[21:23]So how do they feel about the book?
[21:25]They really like it.
[21:26]My mom, I think, honestly was relieved.
[21:29]I feel like she, cause I didn't have them read it
[21:33]while I was writing.
[21:33]I mean, I was always like,
[21:34]if I felt like I was touching on something sensitive,
[21:37]I would just ask my mom like, what within this are you happy
[21:40]for me to include and what are you not comfortable with.
[21:42]And she was like, I don't know that there was even anything
[21:44]she was like, don't put it in.
[21:46]But I really didn't want her to read it until it was locked in
[21:50]because I felt like then in reading it,
[21:53]she might want to like change things.
[21:55]And I wanted it to be very true to my story.
[21:57]And so when she read it, she said,
[21:59]I thought it was going to be toxic, but it was tonic.
[22:02]And I was like, oh,
[22:04]but that wasn't the back of it.
[22:05]I was just gonna say you said that you're having a blurb.
[22:07]Yeah.
[22:07]So I feel like she had a real sense of relief
[22:12]that it wasn't like me tattletailing on my mom
[22:14]because it's like, what is the point of that?
[22:16]That's not really that.
[22:17]And my dad, who's just a true champion,
[22:20]was, I loved it, took him a long time to read.
[22:23]He doesn't read, he's, I mean, he's a doctor,
[22:25]but he's like, I've never read a book, cover to cover.
[22:27]So it was a huge deal for him.
[22:29]He would call me and be like,
[22:30]I got through eight pages today.
[22:32]Whoa.
[22:33]Whereas my mom just like devoured it in like a day.
[22:36]So on your book.
[22:37]What's that?
[22:38]Yeah, that's what I said.
[22:39]I was like, dad, you can just wait.
[22:40]But he was like, no, I want to know what's in there.
[22:43]So yeah.
[22:44]And we were just saying how great it is
[22:45]that you got to record it yourself.
[22:47]Yeah, I set out to have it be the best audiobook ever recorded,
[22:52]which I will say it's not.
[22:53]But it's not the worst.
[22:55]I feel like I was working with some very experienced,
[23:00]professional people that were not going to let me fail.
[23:04]And like we were discussing,
[23:07]I felt like because of the subject matter.
[23:10]And like it's also very like tonally in my voice
[23:13]that like, yeah, who else.
[23:15]And from having the podcast,
[23:16]a lot of people actually have asked like,
[23:18]are you doing, are you doing the book?
[23:20]Like I want to hear you talk about it.
[23:21]So it's just an interesting thing when you read a lot,
[23:25]but you don't read aloud.
[23:27]And you're not being recorded
[23:29]and people aren't staring at you when you're doing it.
[23:31]And then like a lot of times I would read a sentence
[23:33]and I get to the end.
[23:33]I'd be like, oh, wait, we got to go back.
[23:34]Like that sentence ended in a much different way.
[23:38]It turned out it was a question and not a joke.
[23:40]And so like, it was a really interesting process,
[23:45]but I'm very excited to be able to offer that
[23:47]as an option to or in conjunction.
[23:50]I usually do audiobook and regular book
[23:53]when I'm really interested in a book
[23:54]because I feel like it helps.
[23:55]I mean, I read a lot of self help too,
[23:57]but I feel like it just helps like really solidify
[24:00]some of the concepts.
[24:02]So what's coming next for you?
[24:04]What's on your little idea?
[24:05]I mean, and intentionally really have no idea.
[24:08]I mean, there's certainly, I'd love to write another book.
[24:11]I'd love to do more public speaking
[24:14]and share some of these stories in real life.
[24:17]Continue to stay ahead of Bandau as the visionary
[24:20]and like seeing where we can go.
[24:22]But I also just feel like I'm entering into this like moment
[24:25]in my life where anything could happen.
[24:28]Nothing could happen.
[24:30]Some surprise left turn could be offered to me.
[24:34]And so I feel like myself and even everyone at Bandau
[24:38]is like, no need to really plan or I'm really trying
[24:41]to operate without expectations anyways.
[24:43]I just think it's like a healthier place to be.
[24:46]So it's like, who knows?
[24:47]I'll have to come back and tell you because I don't know.
[24:50]That's sort of fun though, right?
[24:52]I love it.
[24:53]I feel like we normally feel like we know,
[24:55]even though we don't like this is the time
[24:57]where it's actually very clear that I don't know.
[25:00]And the ability to be at a place in my life
[25:03]where I can just embrace that is a new feeling for me.
[25:05]Like that, you know, had we met a year ago,
[25:08]I would have been like, oh, I don't know.
[25:10]And this is driving me crazy.
[25:11]Like now I'm just like, yeah, that's cool.
[25:14]It would be good and bad and who knows.
[25:16]I mean, now you have this book coming out.
[25:18]So that's right.
[25:18]You don't even have to worry.
[25:19]This is like the great night
[25:20]and ride the wave and it's all hot.
[25:22]I hope it's a big wave.
[25:23]I feel like I would love for it to be successful
[25:26]because I really wrote it with the intention
[25:28]of like helping people and I know the more people
[25:30]that read it or share it with their friends or family.
[25:33]So I'm excited to like offer that up to the world
[25:36]and like see the feedback and like gain insight
[25:40]for whatever I do in the future.
[25:41]Like it's so helpful for me to hear like what resonated
[25:43]with people and like what their,
[25:45]how it reminded them of something in their life
[25:48]and realize how connected we all are
[25:50]without everything, you know, your experiences feel
[25:53]so singular, especially with mental health issues
[25:56]and like to know, like there's so much that's connected.
[26:00]I don't know.
[26:01]Yeah, I'm excited.
[26:02]We'll see.
[26:03]I know I mentioned earlier.
[26:04]I'm on the board of the Child's Mind.
[26:05]Yes, ChildMind.org and one of our main missions
[26:09]is destigmatizing mental illness for children.
[26:11]And so I feel like this book is just like.
[26:14]Yeah.
[26:15]I want to give it to like everybody.
[26:16]Well, let me not.
[26:17]Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[26:18]I'd like you to give it to.
[26:19]Yeah.
[26:20]Okay.
[26:20]How many people with that?
[26:22]Yeah.
[26:23]No, I really do.
[26:24]I mean it would be great.
[26:24]We have a lunch coming in.
[26:25]Yeah.
[26:26]Take a tip.
[26:27]Yeah.
[26:28]I would love that.
[26:29]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[26:30]Oh, what a process that is.
[26:34]I would say as challenging as people tell you it's going to be,
[26:39]it's more challenging than that.
[26:41]And if that doesn't cheer you, you should still write the book.
[26:47]Because I was like, that's fine.
[26:49]It'll be fine.
[26:50]I understand challenging whatever.
[26:52]And it's like the depths of that challenge.
[26:56]I think it's just like, I mean, obviously, a memoir,
[26:59]I think is like the deepest of the depths.
[27:01]But it's like you're going into this unknown that there's
[27:05]no way you could have none existed.
[27:08]And it's a very solitary place to be.
[27:12]And so it's just like your brain will sort of do things.
[27:15]I don't know.
[27:16]I think it's like expect the unexpected.
[27:18]Probably if I was going to say it in the sound bite.
[27:21]Both good and bad, but certainly.
[27:23]I liked the long version too.
[27:24]Yeah, good.
[27:25]Yeah.
[27:25]We were definitely friends now because not everyone likes the long
[27:29]version of anything I say.
[27:31]But well, that's what makes life interesting.
[27:33]Yeah, I love it.
[27:35]I see this is completely off topic, but I see you have Rachel's
[27:37]book.
[27:38]I do.
[27:39]She worked on my book.
[27:40]I don't know if you noticed that.
[27:42]No.
[27:43]Yeah.
[27:44]Rachel Burched wrote a book called, The Kids Are in Bad
[27:46]and Bad to Interview Her.
[27:48]Oh, you are?
[27:49]Yeah.
[27:50]This is like my interview prep pile over here that I do.
[27:52]Oh, my God.
[27:53]That's amazing.
[27:54]Over this weekend.
[27:55]Yeah.
[27:56]She so when I very far into the process was like, I'm
[27:59]actually not good at certain parts of this book.
[28:01]Like, I had written probably 100,000 words.
[28:05]And I think it was supposed to be 60.
[28:08]And I really just don't have the type of brain
[28:11]to make sense of that.
[28:12]Or I'm told the book really flows.
[28:15]And I'm like, that has literally nothing to do with me.
[28:17]Like, Rachel came in and really did that for me because she's so
[28:22]yeah.
[28:22]She's like, her brain is so amazing and so different than mine.
[28:28]Like, I can flow and just like pour it all out and like,
[28:31]have it be funny and weird and all of that.
[28:34]And she was able to digest all of that and actually
[28:37]make sense and like towards the end, work with Lauren, my
[28:40]editor, to like really offer up something that is digestible in a
[28:45]way that like, not really my strength, especially with the written
[28:48]word.
[28:49]So yeah, I'm excited for you to meet her.
[28:50]She's, I mean, I think my lucky stars that that she came into
[28:55]my life and was like, really, really what got me to the
[28:58]finish line.
[28:58]I think I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do.
[29:01]And people were like, you know, you can ask for help and receive
[29:04]help.
[29:05]And I was like, well, it's not my strengths.
[29:07]But I think at the end, I was faced with like, if you would
[29:11]like to have a finished product, you're going to have to have
[29:14]some like someone come in and do some heavy lifting.
[29:16]So yeah, she was, I think it goes back to what you said earlier
[29:20]about how you surround yourself with really smart people who
[29:22]won't like you fail.
[29:23]Yeah, at least try not to at least try this.
[29:26]Yeah.
[29:26]Well, and I think like, you know, back to the entrepreneurial
[29:30]piece, I think, and the female founder thing, there is the
[29:32]sense that like we're all just going at a loan and like,
[29:35]where these powerhouses and like everything else sort of
[29:39]like fades to black.
[29:41]And it's just like so not the case.
[29:44]And I think like with a book, I didn't even realize like I
[29:49]feel like when we were doing the photoshoot for the cover, my
[29:51]friend was like, so who's writing your book?
[29:52]And I'm like, what do you mean who's writing my book?
[29:54]She's like, there's like ghost writers that will write your
[29:57]book.
[29:57]I'm like, this is my dream.
[29:59]Like, why would I?
[30:00]I, you know, but I think it's like, it's just like everything else.
[30:03]It's like, so I'm just going to show up with this written book and be like, I did it.
[30:06]And I'm like, oh, we need to talk about like the fact that like, no one does anything
[30:11]alone.
[30:12]And so when you're in one of these things, whether it's starting a business or writing
[30:17]a book or any big project, like the idea that you're expected to like the only way you're
[30:21]like a true champion is if you did it alone and I actually think it's the counter.
[30:26]You know, I feel like being able to like receive that and trust is like one of the
[30:30]most powerful things you could do.
[30:32]So yeah, I'm incredibly happy to have her help.
[30:35]Awesome.
[30:36]Yeah.
[30:37]Well, thank you so much.
[30:38]Of course.
[30:39]I was like incredibly, incredibly honored because I think I'm still getting used to like being
[30:44]an author.
[30:45]Oh.
[30:46]But this is like an official book podcast.
[30:48]I don't get an author now.
[30:50]Yes.
[30:51]I mean, we're surrounded by hundreds of books right now, so that this is my all-time
[30:55]favorite genre.
[30:56]It's like memoir.
[30:57]Oh, good.
[30:58]And this is like, you know, my whole thing is like, I'm only do books and if I'm at a
[31:02]bookstore, I would actually pick up.
[31:04]That's amazing.
[31:05]And this is like, I was like, oh, yes, I want to do that one.
[31:07]Oh, good.
[31:08]I'm so glad.
[31:09]Anyway.
[31:10]All right.
[31:11]Well, thanks for speaking.
[31:12]Thank you for coming.
[31:13]Yes.
[31:14]You've been listening to moms and have time to read books with Zibi Owens.
[31:15]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com to get more updates about
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[31:23]Thanks again to Dear Annabelle.
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[31:33]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time to read books.
[31:37]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound for the Sound Editing.
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[31:45]music.
[31:46]Thanks for listening.
[31:47]You can always email me at zibiatzibiowans.com.