Janice Kaplan, THE GENIUS OF WOMEN

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[1:21]I'm here today with Janice Kaplan, who's the author of 14 books,

[1:24]including the New York Times bestseller The Gratitude Diaries,

[1:27]and her most recent book The Genius of Women, from overlooked to changing the world.

[1:32]Janice was formerly the editor-in-chief of Parade Magazine,

[1:35]Deputy Editor of TV Guide Magazine, and the executive producer

[1:38]of the TV Guide Television Group, where she created more than 30 TV shows that aired on

[1:42]prime time on major networks. She began her career as an award-winning producer at ABC's Good

[1:47]Morning America. Janice is a popular speaker at conferences and events around the country.

[1:51]She has appeared on Good Morning America today, CBS this morning, and entertainment

[1:56]tonight, among others. A graduate of Yale University, she currently lives in New York,

[2:00]with her husband, Ron. Welcome, Janice. Thanks for coming on mom's and have time to read books.

[2:04]It's exciting to be here. Thank you. So can you please tell us,

[2:07]near as what The Genius of Women, your latest book is about?

[2:11]Sure. Well, I think of it as a multi-layered book, but I think at its core,

[2:15]it's really about the women in every generation who have done extraordinary work,

[2:19]and who have done extraordinary things, despite all of the obstacles that might have been in

[2:23]their paths. And I use their stories as part of sort of a bigger narrative about the biases

[2:30]and problems and social expectations that we all have to deal with.

[2:35]I loved when you mentioned that Mayim Bialik, Blossom put PhD in neuroscience under

[2:41]other in her resume, because she said she just didn't know where to put it.

[2:44]And it's just such a perfect example of women not really taking ownership of the fact that they're

[2:49]super bright, and genius is really. So tell me, what do you think that's about? Why is that?

[2:55]Well, in Mayim's case, she had been an actress. She had been the star of Blossom, as you said,

[2:59]and then she stopped acting, and she went on got her PhD in neuroscience. Now,

[3:03]you have to be serious to do that. You know, that's not just dabbling. A PhD is a big deal,

[3:07]and then she decided to go back to acting. She told me it was because she needed health insurance,

[3:11]and so she thought she better get that through acting, and her age and put her up for a job

[3:16]at the Big Bang Theory. And yes, as you said, when she was putting her resume together,

[3:21]she thought, well, I have this PhD. Well, in Hollywood, that's about as important as, you know,

[3:26]knows how to rollerblade. So she stuck it. So she stuck it under other, and because it was for

[3:31]the Big Bang Theory, the producers assumed it was a joke. It didn't even occur to them that it could

[3:36]be real. But she did get the part, as we well know, that show has been on to be a huge success,

[3:41]and they changed the part that she was playing them of Amy, so that she would be a neuroscientist.

[3:46]And my him said that she thought it was so that she could correct any mistakes that

[3:50]the writers made. That's so funny. And you mentioned early in the book,

[3:54]how women will never say they're a genius. Like, if you ask any woman in a matter of how smart,

[3:59]there was this tiny percentage that would say, yeah, yeah, I think I'm a genius. Whereas men

[4:03]might have a different response to that. Right. Well, you know, the book whole book started

[4:07]with a survey that I had, a friend of mine did, actually Mike Burland, who's a wonderful

[4:11]pollster and strategist. And he did a survey where he found that 90% of Americans think that

[4:17]genius is tend to be men. And when asked to name a female genius, virtually the only name anybody

[4:23]could come up with was Madam Kerry. And to your point also, then he asked, do you think you are a

[4:29]genius? And no women said yes. And I forget the percentage of men. But you know, it was fairly

[4:35]small, but there was a percentage of men who said, yes, I'm a genius. Now, perhaps they were delusional.

[4:41]Understand that. But the bigger point is that you can't be a genius. You can't achieve at

[4:48]anything unless you think you can, unless you believe that you can do it. And women do have this

[4:54]tendency for self-deprecation. And to think that there's something that they're supposed to

[5:00]suggest that they're not quite as good as they really are. I'll tell you one quick story about that,

[5:06]which is one of the wonderful women I interviewed, Megury, who had been a NASA scientist and was

[5:11]hired away by Yale to be the first head of the physics department. And she was telling me about

[5:16]a meeting she was at at Yale with a group of tenured professors. And she started the meeting by

[5:21]asking them all to mention it was a group of women tenured professors by asking them to all say

[5:26]what they were an expert in. And she said the meeting started and the first woman said, well,

[5:30]I wouldn't call myself an expert, but my field is where I'm really good is. And each woman did

[5:37]some version of that same comment and Meg said she was outraged. Being a tenured professor means

[5:44]you're an expert in a field. And the currency of academia is expertise. So even in something

[5:51]as straightforward as that, women are afraid to say, yeah, I'm darn good at this. And it's

[5:57]something that I learned as I was doing this book. I've always been self-deprecating. I've always

[6:02]thought it was a way to ingratiate yourself and to make people like you to be a little bit self

[6:07]deprecating. And I'm not going to do that anymore. Now I just see all of the wrongness of doing that.

[6:13]So if someone asked you if you were a genius, if I said are you a genius, would you say yes?

[6:17]Well, no, I would not because I don't think I'm a genius in the same way that the women I

[6:23]interviewed are, but I think at this point I could say, I'm not a genius, but I'm really smart.

[6:28]And I'm a good writer. Okay. All right. Let's close enough. Close enough. Oh, that was so hard to say.

[6:33]I don't know. I mean, it's drawing the line of who's a genius and who's really smart.

[6:38]That's tricky. There seems to be some sort of level of innovation or creativity usually,

[6:43]which people attribute to geniuses, right? It's not just like they're really good at something

[6:47]that exists almost. I mean, you had a quote, which I thought was really interesting. You had

[6:51]drinks with a man named Charles in London, I think, and you had asked him about the definition

[6:55]of genius. And he said, I suppose that would be where extraordinary ability meets celebrity.

[7:01]So there is that kind of acknowledgement from the public that what you're doing,

[7:04]are there secret geniuses? Does a genius have to be out and about? What is a genius, really?

[7:10]Well, it's a great question. And I was so taken with Charles's comment. It was Charles Jones,

[7:16]who's a professor at Cambridge. And we were talking about a different subject, actually.

[7:20]And I was just starting my genius research. And so I brought that up. And he came up with that

[7:26]formulation that geniuses were extraordinary talent meets celebrity. Now, Charles is, as I said,

[7:32]an academic. He's an English academic. He's an English older academic. He did not mean celebrity

[7:38]in a Kardashian sort of way. He's probably never watched reality TV. But what he meant is that

[7:44]genius and talent needs to be recognized. It needs to be noticed. And over and over again,

[7:51]now and throughout history, women have had only half the equation. They've had the extraordinary

[7:56]talent. But it hasn't been noticed. It hasn't been recognized. And it's true in academia.

[8:02]It's true in corporations. It's true in art and writing in every field that you can look at.

[8:07]And one of the exciting things for me in doing this book was looking back at some of these women

[8:12]who did have this extraordinary talent and where it was wasted sadly in some or where it was,

[8:18]they were able to use it, but it wasn't recognized, where they didn't win the Nobel Prize that

[8:22]they should have. And only years later, where they recognized, we know those stories historically.

[8:28]We've heard them. But we think they're not happening anymore and they are. And that perhaps to me

[8:33]was the most surprising to realize how easily we still push aside the achievements of women,

[8:40]not consciously, far less consciously than we once did. But it still happens.

[8:44]And why do you think just cultural biases and just gender stereotypes? Why does it keep going on?

[8:50]And what can we really do about it? What do you think? Well, aside from writing books like that.

[8:56]I think it helps to draw attention to it, of course. But I think part of the problem is that

[9:01]women do it to themselves as much as men do it to us. And I have a line at the beginning

[9:06]where somebody says the patriarchy lives in us. And I think that's so true. We don't realize how

[9:13]deeply we buy into those stereotypes and those expectations. And we think that we're

[9:18]giving, teaching our daughters to be so strong and powerful. But then there are so many other

[9:24]social messages that we're sending them that tells them to wear princess costumes and to carry

[9:29]their little mermaid backpacks. And all of these things that put them in a corner that's really

[9:35]not going to allow them to flourish. And kids hear those messages so much more than they read the

[9:42]girl-powered t-shirt that they're wearing to accompany it. And what do you think? I mean, when you

[9:46]were a kid, you had a doctor tell you that you were too smart for your own good. Now, I think people

[9:51]have evolved. I like to believe people have evolved enough that nobody would say that to a child now.

[9:55]But what do you think? What did that comment do to you? Do that inspire you to like, you know,

[10:00]Show them or did it just make you want to retreat more I completely didn't understand it at the time because up till then I think I was about nine years old and up till then the fact that I was a voracious reader and I was the smart kid in the class seemed like a great point of pride, you know, I thought that was a good thing, but when the doctor said that to my mom, she just nodded, she got it, you know, and, and it was one of those lines that I think rings in your head for forever.

[10:27]This is this is many years later. And as I was starting to write this book that seemed completely came back to me. So you're right. We don't tell girls that bluntly anymore, but I'm afraid that we tell it to them in a thousand different ways. One of the women I interviewed was named Cynthia Brazil and she's a roboticist at the MIT Media Lab and she created the first social robot.

[10:50]And she had the wonderful line where she said we live in the age of a thousand nudges. And so no, we don't tell girls they can't be good in science, but you know what, if your daughter doesn't do so well in science, maybe it's okay and you tell her to worry about it.

[11:07]You're doing so well in drama. Whereas if a boy isn't doing well in science, you might say, well, should we get you a tutor or should we work on this together or how can we make this better?

[11:17]It's those little nudges, it's those little excuses that we give girls that we don't give boys. And Cynthia's point was that in some ways that's harder to face.

[11:28]Yeah, if a doctor tells me you're too smart for your own good, I'm going to say, what does that mean? And that's ridiculous. And I like being smart and that's okay. And if society doesn't want me to be smart, then I'm going to stand up for myself anyway.

[11:42]But if you're just nudging and nudging and nudging, you're not even aware of it. And I think that's the position that too many children parents and all of us are in right now.

[11:52]I think back to this one moment in high school, I went to a party with, I think we were in 10th grade and there were some older boys there and whatever and one friend and we went to this, you know, it's very good school in the city like they all are basically.

[12:03]And one of the girls who I was friends with was there was kind of acting a little ditzy even though she was very bright. And one of the guys said, you know, we like smart girls too.

[12:12]And I thought that was so awesome. I just, I don't know why I mean we think of this, but that you don't have to like the whole, let's be a damsel and distressing like that does not fly anymore even for the guys most of the time.

[12:24]Well, that's great. And one of the things I found was that one of the traits that genius women seemed to have in common was that they had grown up overlooking gender where gender was sort of not a part of their lives.

[12:36]And boy Chiki, who's the CEO of 23 and me, told me that she grew up on the Stanford campus. And so, you know, she described her neighbors as all being a bunch of misfits and in a nice way.

[12:47]And she said that her, her friends were all male and female completely mixed, her study groups in high school were boys and girls together and it never occurred to her to think of herself in any different way.

[13:00]And I think that's so important being able to have men and women boys and girls see each other as colleagues and friends.

[13:08]And she described getting to college and meeting some guy who made some comment to her about being a woman or that you can't do that because you're a woman.

[13:17]And she said, she sort of looked at him as like a sociological species that she should be studying like, oh, you're one of those people who thinks that there's a difference.

[13:27]And I think if we're able to do that and if it's a great gift that we can give our children.

[13:33]And there was one thing you said at the end about believing in yourself.

[13:37]You said beyond genes and chromosomes and DNA profiles beyond parents and mentors and teachers.

[13:43]The secret to letting genius flourish seems to be a powerful belief in your own ability.

[13:48]So that was seemed to be your conclusion from the book.

[13:51]Believe in yourself, put yourself forward, go get it, go get it, right?

[13:57]Is that overly, I know it's overly simplistic from your years of research and all the rest.

[14:01]But that was one of the main takeaways for me is just if you believe in yourself, you can do so much more.

[14:06]I think that is a main takeaway and I would temper it only to say that there are structural issues in the society that need to be changed and we all recognize those and they do need to be changed.

[14:16]But right now, you only have your own life that you can deal with.

[14:20]And until you can get to the position where you might be able to do something about those structural issues.

[14:25]The women that I met who were successful were the ones who just believed in themselves.

[14:30]Francis Arnold, who Dr. Francis Arnold, who won the Nobel Prize in chemistry a couple of years ago,

[14:36]was just a wonderful, wonderful woman and she had come up with a totally new way of figuring out how to create chemicals.

[14:42]It's called evolutionary dynamics and everybody told her she was wrong when she was starting this 20 or 30 years ago.

[14:49]And that this was impossible and she was crazy.

[14:51]And I said to her, well, how did you have the courage to go ahead and do it?

[14:55]And she said, I did not doubt myself.

[14:59]And I thought, wow, you deserve a Nobel Prize just for being able to say that.

[15:03]But in one form or another, I heard that over and over again to be a genius means being an outlier.

[15:09]It means disrupting things.

[15:11]It means doing things a little bit differently than everybody else does.

[15:14]And yes, everybody's going to tell you that you're wrong.

[15:17]And the women who were able to reach that highest levels were as you just so nicely,

[15:22]quoted the people who believed in themselves who said, I'm not going to let the world tell me what to do.

[15:28]I'm going to tell the world what I want to do.

[15:30]Well, that's helpful even as a parent messaging to like what you can tell your own daughters, right?

[15:35]Absolutely.

[15:36]And I also loved the gratitude diaries your previous book.

[15:40]There's one section that I just wanted to talk about more.

[15:42]And you wrote an entire book called, I'll see you again about Jackie Hans who lost tragically her three daughters in a car crash in the same day.

[15:48]And then you included a passage about her in the gratitude diaries because despite all of that,

[15:53]she seemed to find things that she felt lucky and grateful for and that enabled her to get out of bed.

[15:58]So I just wanted a little snippet about that whole experience of getting to know someone who has suffered sort of the most unspeakable loss.

[16:05]You can think of and how they kind of rose from the ashes and were able to keep going because of gratitude.

[16:10]So I just wanted to hear a little bit about your experience of her.

[16:13]Sure. No, Jackie was was amazing.

[16:15]And somebody actually had ABC who had been trying to get an interview with her had connected us.

[16:19]Jackie had not been doing any interviews, but she was starting to think she might want to write a book.

[16:23]And I met with her.

[16:24]We really, really liked each other.

[16:26]I spent a lot of time with her.

[16:27]She was the most vulnerable and fragile person you could imagine at that moment.

[16:33]And I decided I didn't want to do the book because I just didn't see how I could spend a number of months or a year reliving this horrible story.

[16:41]But it got to the point where there was so much interest in the story.

[16:44]I was so taken by it that we decided to do it and it did go on to be a big book and a bestseller for many weeks.

[16:51]But Jackie was so striking to me because here she was, as I said, so fragile and vulnerable.

[16:57]And even in that very first conversation we had, she would say to me, but I'm so grateful for my friends who got me through.

[17:03]And I'm so grateful for my husband was wonderful at that time too.

[17:07]And then actually there was a doctor who wasn't going to be able to have any more children.

[17:12]And then there was a doctor who donated his services and his very expensive fertility services.

[17:17]And now she has another wonderful daughter and she was endlessly expressing her gratitude to him.

[17:22]And I thought, wow, you know, if all of us can sit around and complain about the teeny little problems that we have in our lives,

[17:30]what a wonderful perspective to start to be grateful and to use gratitude sometimes to get over really horrible situations.

[17:38]And sometimes to just get you through a rainy day.

[17:41]Like today.

[17:42]And you also talked about how gratitude helped even in your own marriage with your husband and how you would point out little things that he did.

[17:49]And he would point out little things that he did and it becomes this very productive cycle where all of a sudden you're complimenting each other.

[17:55]How did that affect your relationship?

[17:58]It affected it any enormously.

[18:00]I was in the course of writing this book.

[18:02]My plan was to be grateful for something different each month.

[18:05]It's going to be grateful to my husband for the first month.

[18:08]That seemed to me like more than enough time.

[18:11]My husband, but it did have such a great effect on our marriage and our relationship that it not only lasted for the whole year.

[18:19]It has continued.

[18:20]I mean, last night we were at it dinner and I stopped to tell him how.

[18:23]And this is it's true.

[18:24]He's been so wonderful in support of the genius of women and care so much.

[18:28]And just to tell him how much his support means to me.

[18:31]You know, he appropriately rolled his eyes and said, oh, you know, Pishan, I said, no, wait a minute.

[18:35]Let me actually say it.

[18:36]And I think those moments matter.

[18:38]You know, because we do tend to stop appreciating each other.

[18:41]We stop noticing each other.

[18:43]You know, we're more likely to say thank you to the barista, the coffee shop.

[18:47]And we are to our own spouse or the person that we're supposed to love the most.

[18:51]So it's not a question of being fake.

[18:53]It's not a question of making something up.

[18:55]It's a question of you're with this person for a reason.

[18:59]Let them know why.

[19:01]And let yourself know why.

[19:03]Let yourself stop and appreciate if the marriage is wrong.

[19:06]If there's nothing to appreciate, get out, shake it.

[19:09]You know, we have that option.

[19:11]But when you make a decision to do something, appreciate where you are and let the other person know that you do too.

[19:17]It's also goes back to the whole golden rule, right?

[19:20]If you want somebody to appreciate you, you also need to appreciate them.

[19:23]If you like so many advice books, talk about what we can do to get our spouses to pay attention to us.

[19:28]Or, you know, have better communication or all this, all of this.

[19:31]And really, a lot of it just starts with us, right?

[19:35]I mean, we have half the ownership of them.

[19:37]I can't just wait for people to, you know, get off the couch and start doing the dishes.

[19:41]No, that's exactly right.

[19:42]That's exactly right.

[19:43]And gratitude does come in a big circle.

[19:45]If you start appreciating somebody or saying thank you to them, they're going to do it back.

[19:49]They just naturally do.

[19:50]If they don't, maybe you do have a problem.

[19:52]But, you know, most of us know how to make somebody feel good, right?

[19:57]And we make that decision all the time.

[20:00]Whether we're going to overlook something that a spouse or a partner has done,

[20:04]whether we're going to appreciate it.

[20:05]And if you want things to, if you, you're exactly right.

[20:08]If you want to be appreciated, you have to, we have to send it out first.

[20:11]It's true.

[20:12]Tell me about your whole background in TV.

[20:14]You've had such an interesting background in general.

[20:16]You were the editor in chief of parade and you were the editor of TV guide magazine.

[20:21]And then you did 30 shows that aired on prime time on major networks through TV guide.

[20:26]Tell me about that.

[20:27]That's so cool.

[20:27]That's just so cool.

[20:29]So what were some of the shows and how did you want, did you originally want to be a writer?

[20:33]Did you want to be in TV?

[20:35]Like, how did your career evolve in the way it has?

[20:38]Yeah. Well, my career, I did start very early.

[20:41]When I was in college, I was a columnist at 17 and then I was starting.

[20:44]I was on the CBS radio as a reporter, but when I was still a senior in college.

[20:49]So I was ambitious early and I wrote my first book, which actually was called Women in Sports,

[20:53]the year I graduated college.

[20:55]I had a fellowship to write that book.

[20:56]So in some ways, it's a nice circle back

[20:58]to be doing women's topics again.

[21:01]But I always was back and forth between television and magazines and writing.

[21:05]And at some point, I thought to myself, like, wow, maybe if I picked one,

[21:09]I would be more successful at it.

[21:11]But then very quickly, all of media sort of has merged and blended.

[21:16]And so having that, those many different ways of approaching things has been great

[21:20]and has been fun and also meets the fact that I have a very short attention span.

[21:24]So I always loved being a journalist because you get to explore something

[21:28]and discover something.

[21:29]Those 30 TV shows were wonderfully fun.

[21:32]I did some big award shows on Fox Network, actually.

[21:35]I did some music specials on ABC.

[21:38]I did shows on VH1.

[21:40]I did a food series on Food Network.

[21:43]So it was a big variety of shows and just a lot of fun to create the shows

[21:47]and come up with new things to do.

[21:49]And the best was the award show because I got to borrow some really gorgeous dresses

[21:55]and jewelry to walk down the red carpet.

[21:58]And I had little kids at the time, so you didn't get to do that a lot.

[22:03]And maybe your short attention span is why you try all different types of writing.

[22:08]I mean, you've written so many books, 14 books,

[22:11]young adult, mystery, non-fiction, reported pieces, more memoir.

[22:16]You're all over the place.

[22:17]It's amazing.

[22:18]How do you keep coming up with all these ideas and what leads you from book to book to book?

[22:23]Well, I did fiction early on.

[22:25]Most of my career was fiction.

[22:26]And then after I left as editor-in-chief of parade,

[22:28]I started doing non-fiction.

[22:30]And I've just loved doing the non-fiction and the journalism because

[22:34]I'm curious about things.

[22:35]And so the last few books I've done tend to start with a question,

[22:40]with gratitude.

[22:41]It was what would happen if I spent a year living gratefully?

[22:45]Could I really change the way I feel about the world?

[22:48]And with genius, it was, why do we not consider women geniuses?

[22:52]What's going on here?

[22:54]And so that allows me to explore, to interview people, to travel.

[22:59]And I try to take my readers along with me when I'm doing that.

[23:02]I don't just report, give quotes about an interview.

[23:05]I usually take you into the room with me and you get to meet the person with me and see how we're

[23:11]all talking together.

[23:12]So that's just been a lot of fun and I love writing.

[23:16]It's what I've always done.

[23:17]It's sort of my hobby as well as my career now.

[23:20]And where do you like to write?

[23:21]Do you like to write at home or do you like to go out or the office, coffee shops?

[23:25]Like, what's your process?

[23:26]Like, well, I write everywhere.

[23:28]But particularly when I'm doing a book like this one,

[23:30]I find that I'm thinking about it all night.

[23:33]So my husband, the good doctor, gets up and gets dressed.

[23:36]And he's gone from the house at 7.30 in the morning.

[23:39]And I usually take my laptop into bed at that point.

[23:42]And because I've been thinking about things and I want to get them down

[23:46]before I lose it.

[23:47]And then usually sometime around noon, I go, you better get out of bed.

[23:51]This is not a good look.

[23:53]And often I'll work at the Yale Club just to get out of the house and go somewhere.

[23:57]But I can write anywhere.

[23:58]I can write on trains and I can write in coffee shops and I can write in between meetings.

[24:04]And what's coming next to you?

[24:05]Do you have another book that you want to do after this?

[24:07]Any other big questions or burning for answers?

[24:10]And you know, I've always known the next book I was going to do.

[24:14]as soon as I finish the one I had and I don't on this one.

[24:17]I care so deeply about this subject.

[24:20]And I think it's so important.

[24:21]And I look forward to getting to talk about this book extensively

[24:25]and to try to develop it in further ways and to try to get this message out.

[24:28]Because I think it's crucial to all of us right now.

[24:32]And I just really want to focus on this and try to get people,

[24:36]try to get that celebrity side or at least the attention side to this work

[24:40]because I think it's important.

[24:42]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?

[24:44]Right.

[24:46]Write about what you love.

[24:47]Don't try to figure out what the market wants.

[24:50]Write about what you care about and what you're passionate about.

[24:52]If there's a small corner that you can explore, do it.

[24:56]And try to learn about the world.

[24:58]Try to go out and explore things.

[25:00]It's not just your experiences.

[25:01]There's a whole big world out there and world of people to talk to and to discover

[25:06]and go out and find what's important to you.

[25:08]Great.

[25:09]Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[25:11]Thank you, my pleasure.

[25:12]You've been listening to Moms don't have time to read books with Zibi Owens.

[25:15]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com to get more updates about episodes

[25:21]like these and also lots of live events.

[25:23]Thanks again to Kiyuchi for sponsoring this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[25:28]You can follow me on Instagram at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[25:32]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.

[25:36]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and natural music.

[25:40]Thanks for listening.

[25:41]You could always email me at zibiatzibiowens.com.