Kate Elizabeth Russell, MY DARK VANESSA
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[1:09]I'm thrilled to be here today with Kate Elizabeth Russell, who's the debut author
[1:12]of My Dark Vanessa, a novel which will be published in 20 plus languages.
[1:17]Originally from Maine, Kate earned an MFA from Indiana University and a PhD from the University
[1:22]of Kansas. Her fiction and nonfiction has appeared in a necessary fiction, quarterly West,
[1:27]mid-American review, Hayden's fair review, and other journals. She currently lives in Wisconsin.
[1:32]So welcome, Kate. Thanks so much for coming on, Momson. Have time to read books.
[1:35]Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
[1:38]Oh, so excited to discuss My Dark Vanessa. Not stop thinking about this book.
[1:43]Can you please tell us, Nair is what it's about?
[1:45]Sure. So My Dark Vanessa, it tells us the story of Vanessa Y, who at 32 years old, she learns that
[1:54]her high school English teacher, Jacob Strain, has been accused of sexual abuse by another former student.
[2:01]And this accusation, it rattles her to her core because she had a relationship with this
[2:08]teacher, starting when she was 15, but in her eyes, it wasn't abuse. It was love, and she feels
[2:15]very, very short of that. And so the novel, it then moves back and forth in time between
[2:21]the present day and this accusation, and then back in her teenage years.
[2:26]Showing how the relationship started, how it continued, and then at the same time showing the
[2:31]long lasting consequences on her adult life. How did you come up with this plot?
[2:38]Well, I worked on the book for a really long time, a really, really long time, and so,
[2:42]like, giving a ballpark. I started writing out when I was a teenager.
[2:46]And would drew me to this story then, though it took a very different form back then,
[2:54]but that was around the age that I started to become aware of how teenage girls were sexualized
[3:01]in our culture, and that was confusing being a teenage girl myself. And so writing fiction was my
[3:08]way of making sense of that. And so that was sort of the seed of it, how it started. And then
[3:15]over the years, draft after draft, it's sort of evolved, but I had a real breakthrough
[3:21]when I was around my 30th birthday, which coincided with starting a PhD program and creative writing.
[3:29]And it was then that I figured out this present day plot line of another student coming forward
[3:35]and accusing that teacher. And once I figured out that plot line, it gave me the answer to
[3:42]this question of like, why tell the story now? And what is sort of propelling the story forward?
[3:48]It gave the whole narrative a sort of urgency. And then after that, me too, started to happen,
[3:57]which is, I guess, a whole other conversation, but that was one of the most surreal things about
[4:02]the writing process was sort of arriving at this plot line and then seeing something really similar
[4:07]play out in the real world at the same time. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
[4:16]I was just really freaked out at first because I wasn't quite sure how to handle
[4:23]that. Or it took a while for me to figure out how to address it. And once I realized really that
[4:33]my book would be read in this context of me too, sort of whether I wanted it to be or not,
[4:40]and realizing how important this cultural moment was, I really tried to lean into it.
[4:47]You know, not too hard. You know, people are calling it like a me too story. And I think that
[4:54]that's understandable, but I am also trying to show a story that isn't the type that we necessarily
[5:01]have heard that often because Vanessa is a protagonist who she doesn't want to come forward.
[5:06]She doesn't want to post or story on social media or talk to a journalist and fiction is a way
[5:12]to gain access to a story like that. Vanessa also had a lot of sympathy towards Jacob's dream.
[5:19]Absolutely. And if she didn't view it as abuse, she didn't think it was. She felt like he had a
[5:24]problem and she understood it and she was there to soften the blow in a way. Yeah, that's an
[5:30]interesting way to put it. I think I really wanted to make her perceptive, especially as a teenager,
[5:38]because even though he's manipulating her and grooming her and coercing her in ways that she doesn't
[5:45]totally understand at that age, she also sees him pretty clearly. And in some ways I wanted to make
[5:56]even more perceptive as a teenager than she is in her 30s because in her 30s I think she has
[6:01]these blinders on by, you know, out of necessity because on a certain level she knows better
[6:09]at 32. Like she knows on some level that she was abused, that this was wrong, that this has
[6:16]deeply harmed her life. But at 15 her naivete I think gave her the ability to have a lot of empathy
[6:25]for him and able to romanticize him in this quote unquote problem that he has.
[6:31]I feel like by the time she got into her 30s you had more of the question mark of is she,
[6:37]does she have any mental illness of her own? Yeah. Is this caused by what happened? I feel like
[6:42]you danced around, you showed us some of the symptoms where maybe question mark was right.
[6:48]Yeah, I tried to do that in some different ways, definitely with her. Like I wanted the book to be
[6:55]read and to be fairly clearly she's suffering from trauma in her 30s. But she's suffering from it
[7:01]in these ways that are kind of grotesque. Like her, you know, they're just slovenly apartment
[7:07]and her struggling to do sort of the basic necessities of life. But then also as a teenager
[7:15]I wanted to show her being like disorganized and having trouble concentrating and sort of not
[7:22]being the best student but also being really smart. And I knew that readers would come into this
[7:30]book looking for sort of an explanation of why this happened to her. Like what made her so
[7:36]susceptible to this man. And I think there are sort of easy go to answers for that. Like oh,
[7:48]were her parents like not paying attention to her or was she, was this girl in question not even
[7:54]necessarily Vanessa, but just thinking of a kid who finds themselves in a situation like Vanessa does
[8:00]like was she already promiscuous? Was she already sexually experienced and like looking to these
[8:05]answers? Like that's the reason why. And I didn't want to give the reader any one thing that they
[8:11]could point to. I mean like oh well that's why she, you know, was convinced by him or or tricked
[8:17]by him. There are I think different things that you could pick up on in the book but I didn't want
[8:24]any of them to be like and that's the answer. And that's why this happened. I don't think it
[8:29]could ever be so simple anyway. Right. Right. Right. That's more true to life. I feel like I read this
[8:34]as not only in Vanessa's shoes but also from the point of view of her parents as a parent myself
[8:40]and thinking, you know, what did her parents do wrong? Like did you see them as enablers which
[8:45]effectively they were? Was there anything they did raising her that made her, as you said, more
[8:50]susceptible? Was it just a confluence of a lot of different factors? Yeah. I think that was my
[8:55]thought that it was just a lot of different factors. And with her parents, you know, I thought of
[9:00]the relationship with her and her parents as not great but not bad kind of just ordinary and
[9:08]especially as a teenager and you know feeling like you enjoy spending time with your parents
[9:15]to a certain extent but on the other hand you kind of want them to go away and completely leave
[9:20]you alone. But I do think that choices in that are made in the book by her parents, maybe especially
[9:27]her mother, could be seen as enabling but I think could also be seen as just wanting to protect
[9:35]and knowing like it's an impossible situation. Like if you suspect your kid is being abused
[9:43]then what do you do? You would like go to the police but then what does that like that would enter
[9:49]that would invite in another round of trauma inevitably even if justice is eventually served it would be
[10:00]would be putting your kid through something.
[10:01]And so that was what was on my mind as a writer
[10:04]when I was crafting those scenes with her mother,
[10:08]but it's difficult.
[10:09]And there's room for disagreement there,
[10:12]which was important to me to leave that room
[10:15]for disagreement for the remainder
[10:16]because I think that's what makes people want to talk
[10:19]about a book, is if there's different,
[10:21]there's room for different interpretations of it.
[10:23]What are the other secrets to writing a book
[10:25]that everybody's talking about?
[10:26]Since we're on that topic,
[10:28]I mean, this book has gotten so much attention
[10:30]and it's on every list of anticipated books.
[10:33]Are you even ready for the, I don't even know the word,
[10:37]are you ready for all the media attention?
[10:39]And what, let me say that again, are you ready
[10:43]for all of the excitement and attention
[10:46]around the launch of this book?
[10:48]I mean, I don't know if I can be totally ready
[10:51]for it because this isn't, it's all new to me.
[10:54]And it's overwhelming, but really exciting,
[10:57]but mostly I'm just, I'm so anxious and excited
[11:01]for the book to be out and in the hands of readers
[11:05]and for the book to do whatever it's going to do
[11:07]and for readers to respond to it,
[11:09]however they're going to respond.
[11:11]And I know that I'm tasked with helping bring the book
[11:14]into the world, but I'm really looking forward to
[11:17]when I feel like the book can really stand on its own
[11:19]and I can just kind of stand back and watch it.
[11:23]And it's, in terms of like writing it
[11:27]and all of this is surprising to me.
[11:29]I, especially because I worked on it for so long,
[11:32]I always figured this subject matters is dark and difficult.
[11:36]And so because of that, I never really anticipated it
[11:40]finding a really wide readership,
[11:42]but people want to talk about this subject matter right now.
[11:45]I think people want to engage with it.
[11:47]And so I think that is certainly part of
[11:50]what is fueling interest in it,
[11:53]but I also tried to write the best book I possibly could.
[11:57]I wouldn't sell yourself for it.
[11:59]I think it's the book itself.
[12:00]I think this book would be a phenomenal book,
[12:02]regardless of what was going on in the cultural climate.
[12:06]So guys, it's a fine lie, you know,
[12:08]trying to balance how right,
[12:10]trying not to sell yourself short,
[12:12]but at the same time knowing like it is timely.
[12:14]It's timely.
[12:15]And I'm still, I'm still on some level struggling
[12:20]to believe that this is all really happening.
[12:22]I'll just keep reminding.
[12:25]Okay.
[12:26]You're an occasional type of concern.
[12:29]It's on.
[12:30]It's another day.
[12:31]This is really kidding aside.
[12:33]What you were saying about how you craft something
[12:35]that people want to leave room for interpretation.
[12:38]You have a PhD creating.
[12:39]Yeah. Are there things that you learned
[12:41]or you got out of that program or just your lifetime
[12:44]that you think contribute to making a great book
[12:47]that you in the back of your head said,
[12:48]oh, I have to make sure to include this element
[12:51]or this, I want this in my book in some way.
[12:55]Yeah. I mean, so much of it.
[12:57]And I think this is a common thing that writers say.
[13:00]So much of it comes down to character
[13:02]absolutely when writing a book that you want
[13:04]to be considered literary.
[13:06]I feel like you, for me, I really have to lean
[13:09]into the characters as much as I can.
[13:11]Even characters that you don't necessarily want to.
[13:12]Like I, the amount of time I had to spend
[13:15]thinking about strain and trying to get into his head,
[13:19]even though the book is never from his perspective,
[13:21]I still try to think about him as closely as I could.
[13:25]That wasn't something I necessarily wanted to do,
[13:28]but I knew that the book needed it.
[13:30]And so spending a lot of time learning as much as I could
[13:33]about the characters, even if that, what I learned
[13:37]doesn't end up explicitly on the page,
[13:39]just me knowing the characters
[13:41]and in ways that like the reader never necessarily will,
[13:44]that was really important through the writing process,
[13:48]but also being as invested in the plot
[13:52]as I possibly could, which doesn't always come naturally to me.
[13:55]So that was hard work of having big whiteboards
[13:59]and markers and different colored markers
[14:02]and keeping track of all of the subplots
[14:05]and making sure that I didn't lose track of anything
[14:07]and trying to make sure that everything wasn't necessarily
[14:11]resolved, but at least would feel satisfying
[14:14]to the reader by the end of the book.
[14:16]That was a really, I knew that that was necessary,
[14:20]but that was maybe the hardest thing was
[14:23]was trying to keep up with a really,
[14:25]make the plot really propulsive,
[14:28]really propulsive as much as I could, though,
[14:30]as a literary writer that can be tough.
[14:33]So even working on this for years over a decade.
[14:38]Yes, yeah.
[14:39]I'm sure you've worked on it in all different types of places
[14:41]and different times, but in terms of your process
[14:44]and the visual that you can create
[14:46]of you sitting and writing this book,
[14:48]are you a person who likes to go to coffee shops
[14:49]and write, did you do it always at night?
[14:52]What was your process in terms of the actual writing of it?
[14:55]Definitely coffee shops and libraries.
[14:58]I write best when I get out of the house,
[15:01]especially if I'm struggling,
[15:02]I finally getting out of the house
[15:03]and being in a coffee shop, especially,
[15:06]I feel some kind of, I feel more compelled to work
[15:10]or obligated to work if I'm in a coffee shop
[15:12]because I feel like people can see my computer screen.
[15:15]Not that anyone's looking at me,
[15:16]but I just feel like if I'm just messing around
[15:19]on social media, people will see
[15:21]whereas it gives me more accountability, I guess,
[15:25]and also in the background noise.
[15:27]But also, once I was really, really deep
[15:30]in the writing process,
[15:31]I would just set up on the couch and write all night,
[15:36]which that was the best.
[15:37]That was the best feeling.
[15:39]The feeling of not wanting to sleep
[15:41]because the writing was going so well,
[15:44]that I really missed that.
[15:45]I can't wait to get back to that point
[15:48]when I'm writing again.
[15:49]But anyway, coffee shops, I always might go to place.
[15:52]And there's food and drink there, you know.
[15:54]Why not?
[15:56]Have you ever written any short stories
[15:58]or worked on any other projects along the way
[16:00]while you were constructing this beautiful novel?
[16:02]Yeah, I mean, so I was in my PhD program
[16:07]from 2013 to 2018.
[16:11]And during that time, I took two years of coursework
[16:14]and then I had my doctoral exams,
[16:18]which was like three reading lists of,
[16:20]I think it was like maybe 200 books on articles
[16:24]that I had to read and have an exam on
[16:27]and then I got to write the dissertation.
[16:29]Finally, I had three semesters of just writing
[16:32]the dissertation slash novels, so that was great.
[16:34]But the years leading up to that,
[16:36]I always just wanted to work on it,
[16:38]but I had to do the coursework.
[16:40]I had this study for exam,
[16:41]so I always felt like I had all these other obligations.
[16:45]And on top of all of that,
[16:46]I was teaching the whole time.
[16:48]So I had a lot to juggle and it was always like,
[16:52]I can't wait, I can't wait until I'm at the dissertation stage
[16:55]and then I can just totally devote myself to writing this.
[16:58]And I think when I finally got to that point
[17:01]where writing the book was my job,
[17:06]I just threw myself into it
[17:08]and tried to take advantage of it as much as I could,
[17:10]because I was like, when else am I gonna have
[17:12]be in the position where this is my job?
[17:14]But now suddenly I find myself in that.
[17:18]When my next book is gonna be able to be written
[17:20]in that situation too, which is such a gift
[17:23]and I don't take it for granted, even a little bit.
[17:26]Mm.
[17:27]And is your goal or was your goal to be a professor at all
[17:30]or an academic course?
[17:31]I mean, when I was really young, yeah.
[17:34]Or even when I was an undergrad, I still wanted that.
[17:38]I still thought of that as a goal.
[17:40]But then once I got into grad school
[17:42]and the realities of the academic job market
[17:45]were sort of, I was confronted with them.
[17:47]I was like, I don't know.
[17:48]I didn't see myself as competitive or qualified,
[17:52]but now I have a book.
[17:54]Maybe I would be so it's having to rethink that.
[17:59]But now I'm like, is that really what I wanted to
[18:00]still figuring it out?
[18:01]But I do miss teaching.
[18:04]But being a professor, there's a lot of other stuff
[18:08]like on top of teaching that you have to do.
[18:10]So we'll see.
[18:12]And you mentioned earlier before we started
[18:14]recording that you follow your husband.
[18:16]Yeah, for his academic life, which I'm so happy to.
[18:20]And I'm in such a privileged position right now too,
[18:23]that I can.
[18:24]And I was always up for that.
[18:26]But now we view ourselves as very, very lucky
[18:30]in that case that we can be really flexible
[18:32]and open-minded about where we end up.
[18:36]And I just hope that we end up somewhere
[18:39]where we're happy and that we like.
[18:41]And we'll see.
[18:42]We'll see what the future holds.
[18:44]You are a far better wife than me.
[18:45]I would not do.
[18:47]I mean, where are you going to go?
[18:48]I like it.
[18:49]I like think the restaurants you get to.
[18:51]I can't even like, I can't don't get anything.
[18:53]So I'm going to make my husband listen to this.
[18:55]So I mean, you get the major points in my book
[18:58]that you're like a, you know, wife, I don't have mine.
[19:03]Not to delve into your own past.
[19:04]And I know the page in the beginning of the book
[19:06]says the spares no resemblance is all fiction and everything.
[19:10]But you did attend a private day school
[19:13]in Maine as Vanessa did when she went to a boarding school.
[19:16]But you went to a private day school
[19:18]in 9th and 10th grade.
[19:19]And then you left for personal reasons.
[19:21]That, that, that, that.
[19:23]Can you talk about what happened then
[19:25]or any similarities or even did some,
[19:27]did you know someone that's happened to or is there anything?
[19:31]Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't want to talk about
[19:34]personal stuff necessarily.
[19:36]But, but regarding the, the note at the beginning of the book,
[19:39]I just, I wanted to be upfront about the book being fiction
[19:44]because it would miss represent the book,
[19:47]miss represent myself to, to call it anything other than fiction.
[19:50]And also I, I really think it does a disservice to the reader
[19:55]by letting the book be viewed as anything other.
[20:00]then fiction. Because I want this book to be something that readers can engage with in a way
[20:08]that, like I said, leaves room for disagreement or I think a reader viewing Vanessa as frustrating
[20:14]and disappointing and doing the wrong thing, I think that's totally valid, totally valid.
[20:19]And I think that type of reading response to nonfiction is trickier because then you're dealing
[20:25]with someone's actual life. And especially a story or a piece of nonfiction that deals with trauma,
[20:30]that's an ethical gray area for me and people might disagree, but this book is fiction.
[20:37]But at the same time, there are parallels between Vanessa and I, some of which are obvious,
[20:42]like even if you just read my bio, I grew up in Eastern Maine, like Vanessa. And I know the way that
[20:49]we read debut novels, maybe especially debut novels written by women, we tend to read them as
[20:56]autobiographical and I know that. And so wanted to be clear about it being fiction as clear as I
[21:02]possibly could. But your question about witnessing this type of behavior on the part of the teacher,
[21:09]I was a student for 25 years of my life overall. And as a young woman in the academic setting,
[21:17]I don't think is possible to not be on the receiving end of inappropriate behavior. So absolutely,
[21:23]I saw it. I was on the receiving end of it. But it takes a lot of different forms. And it's not
[21:30]always as dramatic as being seduced by your middle-aged English teacher in high school. It can
[21:38]be a professor who was always great, but then there's that one interaction alone in his office
[21:45]and you don't know how to make sense of it or it can be taking a workshop where the professor says,
[21:51]let's all meet at the bar. And then it's a class, but you're all drinking and it's not on campus
[21:56]and the lines seem to be blurred. And so what I tried to do when I was writing the book is to not
[22:04]look at these things in terms of a hierarchy and say, okay, this is worse and then this isn't
[22:10]quite as bad and maybe this is okay, but rather to just think about how all of these instances
[22:17]of inappropriate behavior that are so common, how they're all connected and how they all sort of
[22:24]speak to the same problem. And that's why it was important for me to show Vanessa in college
[22:31]because that's another academic setting. That's really similar to our boarding school,
[22:35]but she suddenly finds herself in a situation where like it's it's okay for professors to marry their
[22:43]students here, whereas then to her boarding school that clearly wasn't okay. And so it's showing
[22:49]how difficult it is for someone who has been through this kind of trauma to navigate the social norms
[22:57]that feel like they're shifting under her feet. I could listen to you talk about. You talk in
[23:03]complete well-crafted paragraphs. It's really amazing. I'm just like marveling at the structure
[23:08]of her. It's like amazing as I ramble on myself. I just want to read one quote of yours in the
[23:16]book. You said, so strain says as a culture, we treat victimhood as an extension of childhood.
[23:21]So when a woman chooses victimhood, she is therefore freed from personal responsibility,
[23:26]which then compels others to take care of her, which is why once a woman chooses victimhood,
[23:30]she will continue to choose it again and again. Vanessa goes on to say, I'm not a victim
[23:35]because I've never wanted to be. And if I don't want to be, then I'm not. That's how it works.
[23:39]The difference between rape and sex is state of mind. You can't rape the willing, right?
[23:44]So what do you think about that? With I with the quote from strain or Vanessa remembering
[23:51]strain saying those things about victimhood, I think that it makes sense for him to see victim
[23:58]in that way, that it's something that women choose and that they find comfort in because
[24:06]string goes on to say like the world has a vested interest in keeping you helpless. You
[24:11]meaning young women. But so does he. He has, he's very invested in keeping her helpless. And so I
[24:19]imagined strain seeing victimhood, even just the idea that as something potentially really
[24:27]appealing to Vanessa and something that would potentially give her a lot of strength. And so it
[24:34]made sense in to me to have him be trying to undercut the very idea of it in this really manipulative
[24:41]way. But the way that Vanessa thinks about it, I think, you know, when she says, I don't want
[24:48]to be a victim and the difference between rape and sex is state of mind. That's how I was taught.
[24:54]That's how I was taught to understand consent. And it's difficult to argue with because I
[25:00]think that's the way that a lot of us were taught it. But what I wanted to do in that moment was
[25:05]to show how flawed that thinking is and how incomplete and how easily it is for someone who has
[25:13]been victimized to sort of parrot back these things that we've all been taught, but show how
[25:21]easily they can be twisted into sort of excusing an abuser. And is part of your goal in the book
[25:29]helping people who might be going through this situation now or who have have gone through it in
[25:33]the past or might encounter it and then have some background and framework to process it?
[25:40]Yes and no. I mean, that definitely wasn't it wasn't the goal when I was writing it.
[25:46]Always the sort of mean goal was just like getting the story down and engaging with the
[25:53]this is going to sound wrong because the book is so difficult. But the enjoyment I got from
[25:58]just writing it, the enjoyment I get from writing anything. That was your last, your last.
[26:03]Your job is okay. It's okay. But I wanted to, the ideal reader I had in my head was someone,
[26:12]not someone who's necessarily experienced what Vanessa has, but someone who would find comfort in
[26:19]seeing a portrayal of a victim who is engaging with her own abuse in ways that we don't usually see.
[26:28]That was really important to me. But that's also pretty broad. It doesn't have to be the exact
[26:35]circumstances. It's just trying to honor the complexity, the complexity of it. Do you have any advice
[26:43]for aspiring authors out there? Always, I mean, it's easy, easy go to any answer, but I think
[26:50]perseverance is so important. It took me such a long time to get this book right. And I was never
[26:57]afraid of tearing it apart and starting over. I was maybe a little too eager to start over
[27:04]to the point where I wrote so many different openings to this, but probably a couple dozen
[27:10]different attempts and the setting would change and the point of view would change. But I was
[27:18]never afraid of that work and never afraid to stick with it. And that was really important.
[27:24]But also viewing the process, even if you have to throw away hundreds of pages of work,
[27:32]the process is always teaching you something. And if you keep at it by the time you do get the
[27:39]book where it needs to be, you're going to be so experienced as a writer because of all those
[27:46]failed attempts. That's that's my best piece of advice. Just like don't be, don't be afraid of
[27:52]the failure because it's helping you all along the way. Well, thank you so much for sharing your
[27:59]thank you so much and for writing this book, which I will not stop thinking about. Thank you
[28:05]such a good book. All right, thanks so much. Thanks. You've been listening to Momstone of Time
[28:09]to read books with Zibi Owens. Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[28:15]to get more updates about episodes like these and also lots of live events. Thanks to Lauren
[28:20]and her innovative PR company, Tink, for sponsoring today's episode, please check them out at
[28:25]tinkmedia.com. You can follow me on Instagram at momstonehavetimetoreadbooks. Thanks so much to Steve
[28:31]and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for
[28:36]providing this fantastic intro and now trim music. Thanks for listening. You could always email me at
[28:41]Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.