Glory Edim, WELL-READ BLACK GIRL
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[1:06]book podcasts out there. And all types of podcasts. I'm here today with glory at M who's the founder
[1:11]of well-read black girl, a Brooklyn-based book club, an online community that celebrates the
[1:15]uniqueness of black literature and sisterhood. In the fall of 2017, she organized the first ever
[1:20]well-read black girl literary festival. She's the editor of the anthology, well-read black girl,
[1:25]finding our stories, discovering ourselves. Glory has a background in startups and creative
[1:30]institutions, including Kickstarter, the Webby Awards, and the New York Foundation for the Arts.
[1:34]She received the 2017 Innovators Award from the Los Angeles book prizes for her work as a literary
[1:39]advocate. She serves on the board of New York City's housing works bookstore and she currently lives
[1:44]in Brooklyn, New York. So welcome, Glory. Thanks for coming on momstone. Have time to read books.
[1:48]Thanks for having me. Of course. So well-read black girl, finding our stories, discovering ourselves.
[1:54]Tell me about this book. Yes. So this all started from me developing this community well-read
[1:59]black girl online and I had this love for books that I had read in my childhood and at my college,
[2:06]Howard University. And I wanted to like share that same feeling of being this well-read, educated,
[2:13]vivacious, curious black girl in the world. And I felt like there weren't enough representations of
[2:19]black characters. And by starting a book club, starting this like online platform on Instagram and
[2:26]Twitter, I was able to kind of pull everyone together. And we were just sharing the love of our
[2:30]first books, whether it was Toni Morrison or Alice Walker or Maya Angelou. We were just having these
[2:36]great conversations about what it means to be a black woman in the world and what it means to be
[2:42]sometimes feeling a little bit isolated and how we can come together and just like change the
[2:47]perceptions of what it meant to be a black woman. And it really really started because my partner
[2:53]made me this shirt that said well-read black girl. And I would wear it on the subway and people would
[2:58]start like having conversations with me and talking to me. And I was like, there's something here,
[3:03]like I want to really elaborate like and expand what this means to be a well-read person. And now
[3:09]it's turned into like this whole literary movement from that one shirt and then one idea. It's really
[3:14]grown into this whole other new experience. So take me step by step. Yeah. Where are the t-shirts?
[3:21]People keep coming up to you on the subway. Right. Right. Then what happened? Then you got the
[3:25]you decided to make an Instagram account. Yeah. So my background has always been in marketing
[3:29]and media. So I studied broadcast journalism at Howard. And I've always loved writing. And I never
[3:36]until recently now I'm calling myself a writer and editor. But I was just always someone was
[3:41]passionate about literature and creative writing. And so I'm wearing this shirt and having these
[3:46]conversations. And so Instagram was like a new medium that I was like playing around with. And I'm
[3:51]curious about when was this? 2015. Yeah. So my birthday's in December. So the December of 2015,
[3:59]my partner got me the shirt. And then in 2016 the spring I actually started a book club. And the
[4:05]first book club actually was not a book by a black woman. We read Tana Hasey Coates between the
[4:11]world and me. Yeah. And so and I had I just had like maybe like eight or 10 people friends of mine.
[4:17]It was both men and women. And we were talking about the book. And Tana Hasey is also alumni
[4:22]of Howard University. And so we were just like really moved by the storytelling and the structure
[4:28]and just like our experiences at Howard. There were a couple of book club attendees that were also
[4:32]alumni. And it was just like this really great fun experience. Also, I was new to New York,
[4:37]which is like a big thing too. I just moved from DC where I'm originally from. And so I was
[4:43]like craving like fellowship and trying to meet new people. And a book club just felt like the
[4:48]easiest way to kind of like gather new people. And so when you're in a book club, it's like
[4:52]a little bit comfortable to talk to a stranger because you're like, okay, our common like bomb
[4:57]here is this book. And we can go beyond that. So that's how it happened. And where did you have the
[5:01]the club? We did it. And at the time I was like, I was working in Dumbo. And there was a space.
[5:08]There was actually, it was a book space of far so bum books. They have a space in Dumbo. And so we
[5:13]hosted it there at a friend who like had access that space. And so yeah, we hosted it there. And
[5:19]it was like, it was really great. And after that experience was like, okay, I want to do this again.
[5:25]And I was reading a book called The Star Side of Bird Hill, which was the debut book of
[5:31]Naomi Jackson. And she is a native of Brooklyn. She's also from the Caribbean. And the book
[5:37]is beautifully written. It just talks about these two young girls who their mother experiences
[5:42]depression. And just like all these kind of just like unexpected circumstances. And suddenly
[5:47]they have to move from their home in Brooklyn. And they have to move with their grandmother in the
[5:50]Caribbean. And it's a beautiful coming of age story. And so I read that book. And then I went to
[5:56]green light bookstore where Naomi was signing books. And at this time, I probably had like, I don't
[6:02]know, I had less than 100 people on my Instagram. But I was kind of documenting everything. And so I
[6:07]showed her my Instagram. And I was like, I really love your book. It's beautifully written. Me and
[6:11]some friends are going to gather for a book club. Would you like to join us? So Naomi was the first
[6:16]person to come to like the official well word background book club. And I did a newsletter and invited
[6:23]people. And just wasn't, I wasn't thinking like too many of people would come as like someone
[6:27]sees this and they join a great, but you know, again, I didn't have like these really high expectations.
[6:33]And just was like, okay, I'm going to do it and to see. And so she came, she said yes immediately.
[6:39]And it was so beautiful. And she came. And not only did she talk about the book, but she talked about
[6:45]her experience as a writer, like, you know, being an MFA programs, her writing process, like
[6:51]all these things that I wasn't expecting. So it turned into and a lot of the women that attended were
[6:57]like inspiring writers. And they were also from the same area that she was from. And so like it just
[7:02]again, we're talking about the book, but it spins off into these other beautiful conversations about
[7:07]identity and about motherhood. I have a really complicated relationship with my mom. So there were
[7:13]themes in the book that stood out to me and resonated with other readers. So that was the one that
[7:19]the book I really solidified. Okay, like book up for sure inviting the author to join us.
[7:25]Having to be a debut author because that also added to the eagerness of her joining us. It was her
[7:30]first book. And she was really excited that this group of black women can't come to like rally
[7:34]behind her and we're supporting her. And it was like this reciprocal just like love for both of us.
[7:39]And now I mean, I have great friends. And it really just started from that one moment where I was like,
[7:44]do you want to come to my book love at green light? You know, like I would have never predicted it
[7:49]would like morphed into this whole other thing simply because I had like the courage to say,
[7:55]you know, do you want to like, well, can you join us? You know, yeah. And luckily I have that
[8:01]moment that's very special moment documented because my partner is a filmmaker. And he was like,
[8:06]oh, this is cool. Like I'll record a little bit. And so he did a little bit of video of all
[8:11]I was talking and Naomi. And he like put it together. Like almost like a little trailer of the
[8:15]book club. I was like, we were kind of playing with it as just like a creative kind of side project
[8:20]where we were doing together. Since he made the shirt for me and you know, like my love for books and
[8:24]like, well, we're a black girl. It's a little bit of a nickname for what he calls me because I'm
[8:28]always like reading, especially like before we go to sleep. I like done something to me.
[8:32]Like I'm just trying to read a little bit before bed. Yeah, that's how it started from, yeah,
[8:38]that one question. Wow. And now you have an agreement right with the ABA that you did.
[8:42]Yeah. Yeah. So I, at one point, I was like, this is growing beyond me. And I want to make sure
[8:51]that indie bookstores are represented. I want to make sure that this was something because that's,
[8:56]I love independent bookstores. I'm from DC. So politics and prose is one of my favorite bookstores in
[9:03]and now in New York, I tend to go to green light a lot as well as word and books are magic.
[9:09]So I like, I love independent bookstores. That's how I buy my books. And ABA is the American
[9:15]Books, I was association. And I was at a conference and I was talking to one of their lead strategists
[9:20]about just like how I could expand. And she's like, you know what, we should do a partnership
[9:24]in her name is Joyce. She's just amazing. She's actually there. Now she's their COO, I believe.
[9:30]You can only fact check that for me. But Joyce, so amazing. And she just was like, okay,
[9:34]we, we like work with every single bookstore in the country. Like what's like, why don't we do a
[9:40]partnership where you share your recommendations and you can work directly with the bookstores
[9:44]and the booksellers. And I was like, okay, great. So we did like a pilot and we kind of,
[9:48]you know, figured out like how to do a newsletter. And I went to their Institute this year,
[9:53]which was awesome. And that everyone is just so excited. Like it ranges from like, you know,
[9:58]bookstores in West Hollywood.
[10:00]who had like book soup to small bookstores in Maine
[10:03]or in Atlanta Chicago, like everyone kind of,
[10:07]they're, I'm giving them the books
[10:08]but they're able to adapt and make the book clubs
[10:11]to fit their community.
[10:13]So for example, one book club, it's a well-read background book club
[10:16]but they're really focused on teens.
[10:18]So they do all YA books and they read stories that I suggest
[10:23]but they also come sometimes pick some classics
[10:25]and kind of adapted to what they're interested in.
[10:28]And I've gone to visit some of the bookstores.
[10:30]Like I went to Detroit to go visit the booksellers
[10:32]has source books, which is really awesome.
[10:34]I'm definitely gone to, you know, I'm in LA a lot.
[10:37]So I love visiting book soup.
[10:39]They've like found a really great way
[10:41]to integrate it into their marketing
[10:43]so they do a lot of social media.
[10:44]So everyone kind of like does their own thing with that
[10:47]but it's still under like the banner of well-read black girl
[10:50]and the focus is still supporting black women writers
[10:54]as well as non-binary writers
[10:56]and, you know, writers of color.
[10:58]And it's really about like pushing the diversity initiative
[11:01]in a way that feels genuine
[11:02]and really is making like real change.
[11:05]Like you can see the conversations,
[11:07]you can see the bodies in the bookstore
[11:08]that are introducing new communities,
[11:11]some bookstores have started partnerships with schools
[11:13]and community centers and people are being innovative
[11:16]on about how to just introduce new diverse books
[11:20]into their stores and to their communities.
[11:22]And it's not just about like saying,
[11:24]oh, we have this cover where there's a lovely person
[11:27]on the, you know, person color on the cover.
[11:30]It's like, it's more than that.
[11:31]It's like actually like introducing these books
[11:33]and having conversations and dialogue
[11:34]and it's really community driven and intergenerational as well.
[11:38]Like I love the fact that like moms and daughters
[11:40]come in together and they have conversations
[11:43]and it's just more, it's again,
[11:45]and it's like something I could not have predicted, right?
[11:48]Like that conversation would joy,
[11:50]really change my perspective on how I could expand
[11:52]and how I can grow
[11:53]because I still do a lot of stuff by myself.
[11:55]You know, it is like myself and volunteers.
[11:58]I'm still trying to figure out the infrastructure
[12:00]of like the business,
[12:01]but ABA has been an awesome partnership.
[12:04]It's been so cool.
[12:05]And telling that the literary festival.
[12:07]Oh my gosh, so okay, so much to talk about.
[12:11]So two years in in 2017,
[12:14]after the book club I've been going
[12:15]and I've been pretty consistent for two years,
[12:17]I decided that I wanted to do another thing.
[12:21]I was like, we should do a festival.
[12:23]And this idea came about
[12:25]because I was having a conversation with T.R. Jones
[12:28]who I'm a huge fan of her work
[12:30]and I had the opportunity to meet her at a gala
[12:33]where I was there because I'm Tony Morrison.
[12:35]We were honoring Tony Morrison.
[12:37]It was the author's guilt gala.
[12:39]And it was like the first kind of like fancy event.
[12:41]I was like going to as lower a black girl representative
[12:44]and I was a very shy.
[12:46]Of course I was like kind of waving in the corners,
[12:48]like you know, bowing down to Miss Morrison
[12:51]and Terry just came up to me
[12:53]and we started having the conversation
[12:55]and she just was so warm and glowing
[12:56]and I'm like fangirling inside,
[12:59]kind of like doing like cartwheels
[13:00]because I love this author.
[13:02]Like I've read all her books.
[13:03]I love like silver sparrow.
[13:05]And at that time she had not published American marriage yet.
[13:08]It was like just about to come out to that book by the way.
[13:11]So incredible, so incredible.
[13:13]And so, but she like her presence and her warmth is just,
[13:19]she's like sun.
[13:20]Like she just like fills you with so much warmth.
[13:22]And I met her and immediately felt like I had a new friends.
[13:26]And so we were having this conversation
[13:29]and I was writing.
[13:30]We decided to share a cab home together
[13:32]because we were uptown and we were going back
[13:34]to Brooklyn together.
[13:35]And in that car we were just having these great conversations.
[13:38]And one, I told it as ideas.
[13:39]Like I think at one point I wanted to a literary festival.
[13:42]But again, it was like 2017.
[13:44]So I was like planning for next year.
[13:46]And she looks at me like you should do it this year.
[13:48]And I was like, I don't know.
[13:49]I don't think I could do it.
[13:50]I have to do a keynote.
[13:51]I have to do all this stuff.
[13:52]I was like, I don't know if I have this time.
[13:53]And she's like, plan a festival in six months.
[13:56]And she was like, no, you can do it.
[13:57]She's like, I'll come.
[13:58]I'll be like one of the main people.
[14:00]I'll help you.
[14:01]And I was just like, what, again, we had just met.
[14:05]So just like, oh my God, I don't know.
[14:06]It gets a lot.
[14:08]But she was just so adamant about it.
[14:10]And her passion and her excitement
[14:12]made me confidence that I could do it.
[14:14]So I was like, okay, so two weeks later
[14:18]I planned a Kickstarter.
[14:19]I did a crowdfunding campaign.
[14:21]I reached out to the authors that had already participated
[14:24]in the book club in the past to see if they would
[14:26]be available to be part of it.
[14:28]Everyone was so gracious.
[14:29]The community was on board.
[14:31]And it worked.
[14:32]It's like we ended up raising like $30,000.
[14:35]We had scary there.
[14:36]We had Jacqueline Woodson.
[14:38]We had Morgan Perkins.
[14:39]We had Ashley Ford.
[14:41]All these people I definitely consider
[14:43]just like amazing authors and friends now
[14:46]I've looked throughout the years.
[14:47]Okay, you're gonna have to like connect me
[14:48]to some of these people.
[14:49]Oh my God.
[14:50]Dying to have on this podcast.
[14:52]Yeah, of course.
[14:52]They were so poor.
[14:53]It was just like all these amazing people
[14:57]are in the room and we were having this conversation
[14:59]and then thankfully there was amazing press too.
[15:03]So it just was like this movement
[15:04]that everything was kind of falling into place.
[15:07]And so now that was in 2017
[15:09]and we just did our third festival last year in 2019.
[15:14]And I added a second day.
[15:16]So I added a family day.
[15:17]Cause mom, so I'm foreign to like health and moms
[15:21]and the kids.
[15:22]And so I added a family day this year.
[15:25]And I just can't wait.
[15:26]Like I can't wait.
[15:27]I'm trying to figure out this year.
[15:29]Like I'm still doing a little just six of the venue
[15:31]and stuff where we're gonna have it in November.
[15:33]And it's gonna be great.
[15:34]Like I think like I'm excited about year four
[15:37]but I think year five is really gonna be it.
[15:38]You know, I'm just like five is like our big year.
[15:41]We're gonna have plenty of it.
[15:42]You know, I'm just really, it's been great.
[15:45]And so that's kind of the outside of the book clubs.
[15:48]The festival is really like our banner event.
[15:51]Everyone comes in.
[15:52]It feels like a big banner reunion of sorts, everyone.
[15:55]And we have, now I've been able to find a way
[15:58]to really produce it in a way where I understand
[16:00]how things work now.
[16:01]So I'm like really focusing on genre.
[16:03]I've invited a lot of academics to participate.
[16:06]This year we had Sidea Hartman come,
[16:08]which was just like so inspiring.
[16:11]Her book, Wayward Lives, really changed the way
[16:13]I've been looking at how one uses the archive
[16:16]and how we can tell our histories through preserving,
[16:20]you know, images and photos of the past.
[16:24]And it just has opened up my mind.
[16:27]So many great things.
[16:28]So many great things.
[16:28]So that's the festival.
[16:30]Yeah.
[16:31]So how like, this is like a silly question.
[16:33]Like how inclusive versus exclusive
[16:35]is this event to all sort of racist?
[16:37]Cause like I'm obviously not black.
[16:39]I'm white, but this is like an amazing event.
[16:41]I'd wanna take my kids to the same day.
[16:43]That is it only for black people?
[16:44]Well, you know, it's a space that is like centered
[16:47]on the stories and narratives of black women
[16:50]and black families.
[16:51]And we do definitely invite allies to participate
[16:54]and join us.
[16:55]And I think it's really about having people centered
[16:57]on the mission.
[16:58]So if you are supportive and understand that
[17:01]this is a space for black women to congregate
[17:04]and you wanna be, you wanna join in
[17:06]in order to look uplift and to learn more, definitely.
[17:10]I think also another thing that I'm very keen of
[17:12]that there's so many children mothers
[17:15]that we, everyone has like a different family.
[17:17]So there's like biracial families.
[17:19]There are people folks that adopt black children.
[17:21]And so I don't wanna isolate like people
[17:25]on those privacy that there's like,
[17:26]this is only for black people.
[17:28]But you have to understand like this is a space centered
[17:31]on blackness.
[17:32]And if you want to be in it, you have to be,
[17:35]there's a mindset that you have to kind of like adopt
[17:37]in order to, you know, de-center yourself, you know?
[17:41]So it's like so many times when I'm walking to the room,
[17:43]I am the only black person,
[17:45]whether it's an corporate environment
[17:47]or I mean, with the exception of my college experience,
[17:49]I definitely decided to go to a historically black college
[17:52]because I wanted to kind of figure out
[17:54]who I was in the world when I wasn't being compared
[17:57]to someone else, what I didn't feel like
[17:58]I was being tokenized, you know?
[18:00]And that experience in college really,
[18:02]I am confident there's no way I could have developed
[18:06]well with black girl without that
[18:07]because I feel confident in every space.
[18:10]And I don't feel like I'm like minimizing myself
[18:13]or trying to code switch, you know,
[18:15]as people call it, like I'm always just being myself.
[18:17]And so yeah, like I think that when it comes
[18:20]to people entering, it's just like if you understand
[18:22]and if you really want to learn
[18:24]and kind of just like sit back, you know,
[18:26]it's like not about like always asking the question
[18:30]and always being in front and center.
[18:31]It's like, okay, let me see what this is
[18:33]and I really appreciate it.
[18:34]And even when it makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable,
[18:37]that's okay, but I'm here to learn.
[18:39]And I think if you come in with that attitude,
[18:42]it's you are more than welcome.
[18:43]But if someone comes in and they suddenly like,
[18:46]I think we should be reading this and said,
[18:49]like this isn't the book up for you.
[18:50]If you think, if there's a lot of objections
[18:53]or if there's a lot of kind of like, you know,
[18:55]sometimes you walk into room,
[18:56]people really want to create tension or friction
[18:58]just because or just because people are everywhere.
[19:01]You just know what you call your book up.
[19:03]It's true, it's true.
[19:04]There's like people that don't like,
[19:06]don't really want to like engage and learn.
[19:08]They just want to just like be argumentative, you know?
[19:11]And like, it's like all of Twitter.
[19:12]That's Twitter.
[19:13]It literally is Twitter.
[19:14]Like I cannot have Twitter inside the book club, you know?
[19:18]And Twitter is a valuable tool.
[19:19]And I think it has social media,
[19:21]has like lent exposure and visibility
[19:24]when it's used like in a way that's like really innovative
[19:29]and it gives people more platforms and space.
[19:31]But it could also be really toxic too.
[19:33]So I mean, there's been moments where I've been on Twitter
[19:36]where people have said something that I disagree with.
[19:39]And I'm like, should we talk on my phone?
[19:40]Because I'm just like,
[19:43]there's like sometimes we're not enough context
[19:44]or nuance on Twitter and things can even email.
[19:47]I mean, it's gonna get really like confusing very quickly.
[19:51]I just had a moment where someone was emailing me
[19:53]and I was like, oh, I think she thinks I'm upset
[19:55]and I really am not upset about something.
[19:58]So it's like, we should get on the phone
[19:59]or we should get in person.
[20:00]And I think that was another reason why I was very adamant
[20:03]about always having the book club in person,
[20:06]not only doing things online,
[20:08]because I love, I love in person contact.
[20:10]I love communicating in person with people.
[20:12]I love the festival, because there's an energy,
[20:14]and there's a feeling you get
[20:17]when you're in person and you're connecting with someone
[20:19]like one-on-one, and you can't emulate that on Twitter.
[20:23]You can't do that on Facebook.
[20:24]You can't do that on, what's the other one, Instagram?
[20:27]You know, it's really important for you to be in contact
[20:30]with people and communicate with them.
[20:31]I hear preaching to the choir.
[20:33]I feel like so much of what you're saying,
[20:35]I feel like I could say and just have it be slightly different.
[20:38]Yeah, yeah.
[20:39]I feel like there's nothing that replaces being in person.
[20:42]Yeah.
[20:42]It's looking up and talking.
[20:44]I mean, like how fun is this?
[20:45]Like I get to hear your perspective,
[20:47]and we both love books so much.
[20:48]Yes.
[20:49]You know, when I asked if I could come,
[20:50]it was more like I love really hearing all people's stories.
[20:54]Like I like books of all different.
[20:56]Like I don't, when I evaluate books of books.
[20:57]Yes.
[20:58]I don't, sometimes I don't know what race the person
[21:00]is he's writing like a good story, like that's the story I want to read.
[21:04]Yeah, and it's so amazing because I love the conversations
[21:07]that were, you know, as a black writer,
[21:10]there's so many things that are just focused on race
[21:14]that it can take away from craft, you know.
[21:17]That is super problematic because the writing,
[21:21]every book that I select, I'm like looking at sense
[21:23]of structure, I'm looking at exposition, I'm looking at,
[21:26]I'm just like, I'm looking at the quality of the book, you know.
[21:29]And it's, I'm what I'm saying is this is no less of quality
[21:33]simply because it's a black writer.
[21:35]It's like, why would it be?
[21:36]No, but some people would, you know, question that really well.
[21:40]Really?
[21:41]I mean, it's crazy, but that's the thing.
[21:43]And that's why like the publishing industry is, you know,
[21:46]has really taken to the movement because it's like,
[21:49]I have this platform where I'm able to like profile
[21:51]and like really uplift these stories.
[21:55]And in my mind, I'm like, this isn't you,
[21:57]because I've been reading, you know,
[22:00]I've been reading these books forever.
[22:01]You know, why isn't, why aren't these on the forefront
[22:04]of the, you know, the minds of so many different readers?
[22:06]Why are we like sectioning things off?
[22:09]It's like, this is, you know, a black genre.
[22:10]Like, no, like this is, these are great storytellers
[22:13]and they deserve the recognition.
[22:15]Do you feel like they're being sectioned off?
[22:18]Like, in both stores and stuff?
[22:19]Like, yeah, at times.
[22:20]I mean, I think things are changing,
[22:22]but yeah, definitely.
[22:23]Like they're definitely like, what's with Siri?
[22:25]Like, Terry, I mean, I'm reading her since the 90s, you know?
[22:29]And like Oprah's book club that was just picked two years ago
[22:32]and now there's such a big boom.
[22:34]She's been writing for a very, very long time
[22:37]and she's been an incredible writer from the beginning.
[22:40]You know, I'm so glad that Oprah selected her
[22:42]and gave her her proper like accolades,
[22:45]but now she's in the quote-unquote mainstream.
[22:48]I've been reading her forever, you know?
[22:50]And like, Silver Sparrow, it's being re-published
[22:54]and re-released, but that book is can stand
[22:57]right next to an American marriage
[22:58]and there is no separation.
[23:00]But now she's being discovered, you know, years later.
[23:02]And I think, yeah, of course, means take time.
[23:05]I feel like the same thing I have readers
[23:06]that I've been following for 20 years.
[23:08]Yeah, I'm like, oh my gosh, how amazing.
[23:10]Now, like, but I was in college or something, right?
[23:13]This is what got me through like a weekend in college
[23:16]that I remember like it was yesterday
[23:17]and now finally, now look at this, I'm missing now.
[23:20]You know, sometimes it's just, it's about time,
[23:22]but you know, I think there, it is more challenging
[23:24]as a black writer to get that, like that boost, you know?
[23:27]And I've seen the difference, like it makes
[23:30]when I post something on Instagram.
[23:31]I see when people say, I'm pre-ordering now, you know?
[23:34]And like, that, I love that, you know?
[23:37]And I don't get, you know, I'm not getting like a rosy
[23:39]check for every like heart or like thumbs up.
[23:42]I just want to know that I'm having my small impact
[23:46]on changing what the canon looks like
[23:48]and making sure like, if there is any kind of ROI
[23:52]that's happening in this, it means that people
[23:54]are buying their books and they have the ability
[23:57]to be on bestseller lists and they can like, you know,
[23:59]continue to have a body of work
[24:01]where it's not just like one great debut novel.
[24:04]It is a body of work, there's series of books.
[24:07]There's, I can be a lifelong follower of their work.
[24:09]Look, right now, I'm really excited about Brit Bennett's
[24:12]next book.
[24:13]I think I believe it's called The Vanishing or Vanishing,
[24:15]but her first book, The Mother's, we read it for the book club.
[24:18]You know, it was her first debut and just like, I loved it.
[24:22]And we had so many great conversations
[24:24]and now she's writing her second book,
[24:25]the same thing when Nicole Dennis Ben.
[24:27]We all read, here comes the sun together
[24:30]and then our second book, Patsy, we read it together.
[24:33]And then just, I mean, now it's just like,
[24:35]it goes beyond just like, okay, this is your debut book.
[24:38]This is just like, how can we like be fans of yours forever?
[24:41]And I love that.
[24:42]I love, I love reading, you know.
[24:46]I think some of the power of reading,
[24:47]and I know that a lot of the people who contributed essays
[24:50]to this anthology feel the same way.
[24:52]I think there's two things that are really powerful.
[24:54]One is the ability to see yourself.
[24:55]Yes, 100%.
[24:56]Right, 100%.
[24:57]Identify something that maybe you haven't articulated
[24:59]and you see it in a book and you're like,
[25:01]oh, I feel so understood.
[25:03]And there's that like sort of humanizing,
[25:06]amazing element of being seen or being understood
[25:10]or helping you sort out your own things, right?
[25:11]But then I also think it's really important
[25:14]to get other people's point of view.
[25:15]Oh, yeah.
[25:16]And that like, okay, maybe, you know,
[25:17]I wasn't in this country at this time,
[25:19]but that's such an interesting story.
[25:21]Yeah.
[25:22]Right, yeah.
[25:23]Getting other people's point of view.
[25:24]Things right now, there's like so much divisiveness
[25:27]in the culture.
[25:28]Yeah.
[25:28]And I think now more than ever not to feel it
[25:29]not to be on the sort of platform,
[25:31]but it's so important to understand other people's point
[25:33]of views and remember that like, ultimately,
[25:36]we all are like moms, like, or women or men
[25:41]or going through the same things every day.
[25:42]And we may look different and we have different cultures,
[25:44]but like some of those fundamental human thoughts
[25:47]and feel it's all the same.
[25:48]Yeah, it really is.
[25:49]And so why, like, keep all these like borders?
[25:51]Like, I don't know.
[25:52]Yeah, no, it's really complicated
[25:54]because I think there are less spaces
[25:57]where we can come together and have like,
[25:59]honest dialogue about things,
[26:00]but books allow us to kind of go through the perspective
[26:04]of another person and just like really taking their insight
[26:07]and just like be with ourselves on what I do that,
[26:10]how do I feel about that and make a decision
[26:13]without feeling threatened or judged by another person?
[26:17]So I think a lot of times people are afraid of judgment.
[26:20]They're afraid of being wrong.
[26:21]And that has actually been one thing that's helped me excel.
[26:26]I've gone into spaces where I'm just like,
[26:28]I don't know what I'm doing,
[26:30]and I'm really okay with admitting that.
[26:32]I'm okay with like being wrong.
[26:34]I'm okay with asking questions.
[26:35]I'm okay with quote, unquote, looking stupid
[26:37]because I'm just like, well, how else will I learn, you know?
[26:40]And when people ask me questions about like,
[26:43]how you do this, I'm just like, I don't know.
[26:45]I just like really experimented.
[26:46]And I also give credit to being in a space
[26:49]where I did work up work in like startup spaces
[26:51]and that's all about like iterating and pivoting.
[26:54]And I watch a lot of men excel
[26:57]and clearly not know what they're doing, you know?
[27:00]And so I'm just like, that is what everyone is doing
[27:02]every day.
[27:03]We're just trying our best.
[27:04]And if you can kind of like work through the failures
[27:07]of whatever you're doing, you will eventually lead to a success.
[27:11]And I think also being patient with yourself is so vital
[27:14]because had I had kind of given up after a year
[27:18]where I consistently had, again, like under 100 followers.
[27:22]For the first year, like I remember being at Christmas
[27:24]one year, I was just my little brother
[27:26]and I was like really geeking out
[27:27]because something had, I don't know,
[27:28]who retweeted me something happened
[27:30]and I started getting all these followers
[27:32]and like the whole day of Christmas, I was like,
[27:33]oh my gosh, you know, I was like,
[27:35]I was so excited and my brothers were like,
[27:37]what are you doing?
[27:38]Like, what is this world?
[27:40]And my mom still doesn't know what she's super supportive.
[27:43]But my mom was a registered nurse.
[27:44]She just was like, you have this is your job.
[27:47]Now she really has no full understanding
[27:50]but she just is supportive and loving.
[27:51]I think every time she comes to the festival,
[27:53]she gets a little bit more this year.
[27:55]She became like a little bit of a vet producer.
[27:57]She was in the back, you know?
[27:59]She was like, hanging out with talent.
[28:00]She stayed with Stacy and Chin like the whole time.
[28:03]I was hilarious, but she sees it
[28:05]and she's like, okay, this is your work.
[28:08]This is like your growing community.
[28:09]She sees it and she starts to understand
[28:11]but you need time.
[28:13]Like things in time to develop organically
[28:15]and you have to be patient with yourself
[28:17]and it's not about it just happened instantly.
[28:19]I also think, I mean, just cause, again,
[28:22]he's like still on things that were in my mind
[28:23]about my own.
[28:24]I was like, no, cause in the beginning,
[28:25]I had like 20 people that made podcasts
[28:27]and I'm like, I don't know.
[28:28]Well, I'm just gonna try something new
[28:29]or I should be going.
[28:31]And I think part of it though is passionate.
[28:33]Like you and I both,
[28:33]like we feel so passionately about what we're doing
[28:36]and helping spread the word about books
[28:38]that we care about, our stories that we care about
[28:40]and whatever.
[28:41]And sometimes that's enough, right?
[28:43]Like why would I stop?
[28:44]Like even if nobody listened tomorrow,
[28:46]I'm still having a blast.
[28:47]That's so funny.
[28:49]Cause yeah, that's how I feel too.
[28:50]Like I do honestly feel that way.
[28:52]Like there was like all this hoopla about, oh my God,
[28:55]you're gonna be like the next Oprah and this and that
[28:57]and I can make no no no Oprah is Oprah, you know?
[29:01]And like I love and I'm completely obsessed with her.
[29:03]And I respect her and I feel she has set the precedent
[29:06]for so many things.
[29:08]But I just really like want it to make new friends
[29:12]in read books and like, and that was it.
[29:15]And now it's grownness is something else.
[29:17]And now I do what has changed.
[29:19]Like if you feel that immense responsibility,
[29:22]I do feel like there is when things happen
[29:25]that are really just like irresponsible,
[29:29]I do feel like I have a platform and a space to speak out
[29:32]and help others.
[29:33]I do feel like I have, I'm gaining more power.
[29:35]I'm feeling more confident in myself to challenge things.
[29:38]And so it's not simply about just, okay,
[29:40]I'm making friends in reading books.
[29:41]Like I'm really trying to make an impact that is lasting.
[29:44]And I want, I see so much of the work that I'm doing
[29:47]as part of my own individual legacy.
[29:49]So writing the book was so crucial for me
[29:51]because that shit, they shifted so many things.
[29:54]It was like, okay, this is not only on a digital space.
[29:58]It's like, it's in a book.
[29:59]I have a book.
[30:00]It's like, you didn't find this book 10 years from now,
[30:02]100 years from now, someone's gonna pick it up and read it
[30:05]and be moved by it and feel the way I felt when I was 19
[30:09]and I read Tony Morrison, you know?
[30:11]So it was really crucial for me to create something like offline
[30:15]that was a beautiful piece of art, you know?
[30:20]Let me read just a couple of quotes because I know we're like,
[30:22]almost out of time here and I could talk to you all day.
[30:24]And you are like such a role model for me by the way.
[30:26]Oh my gosh.
[30:27]If I could grow this my little platform into it, you create it.
[30:31]Anyway, so you're like a total role model just FYI.
[30:34]Anyway, so I'm just gonna read quickly a couple of quotes in your introduction.
[30:36]You're reading highlights the intersection of narrative and self image
[30:40]to create compelling explorations of identity.
[30:42]Reading allows us to witness ourselves.
[30:44]Being a reader is an incredible gift.
[30:46]Providing me with the lens to interpret the world.
[30:48]Most important, it has invigorated my imagination and allowed me to choose
[30:51]which narratives I want to center and hold close.
[30:54]That was amazing.
[30:55]I was like star.
[30:57]You also said, so this was a quote from Daniel Clayton.
[31:01]It's talking about reading coffee.
[31:02]We'll make you black by April Sinclair.
[31:04]And she said, not much happens in the book,
[31:05]but when I read it, everything happened for me.
[31:07]It was the right book at the right time,
[31:09]which is a former librarian.
[31:10]I can tell you it was the most important thing in the entire world.
[31:14]Yeah, which I completely am sure you agree with.
[31:16]Yeah, the right book at the right time.
[31:17]It was like life-shading.
[31:19]One more quote, Carla Bruce Eddings talks about being shy.
[31:23]She says she preferred to quote observed to twirl around
[31:26]in the fascinating constellation of my own mind,
[31:28]where I could entertain myself by creating stories about the people around me.
[31:31]This is just like a beautiful way to take being shy.
[31:34]And then one last quote from Jacqueline Woodson,
[31:36]she said, I knew as soon as as I started that writing was the thing that brought me the
[31:40]greatest joy.
[31:41]So just to close, do you think reading is bringing,
[31:44]writing is bringing the greatest joy?
[31:46]Or is it this connection that writing can bring to the world?
[31:49]Oh, I love it.
[31:50]It's all of it.
[31:51]It's the writing, it's the reading, it's being in close proximity
[31:56]to the readers themselves and built in community.
[32:00]I think writing for me right now is it's the greatest joy, but also the greatest challenge, right?
[32:05]Because I'm reading all these incredible books all of the time.
[32:09]And I want my writing to be as worthy and as as excellent as Jacqueline Woodson,
[32:16]as Sarah Broome, as Veronica Chambers, people that I admire.
[32:21]And I really want my, I want my work to be like long-lasting.
[32:25]So I've just been taking a lot of time to study and to revise and edits and change things.
[32:33]And it's, I mean, right, it's writing is difficult, right?
[32:35]You know, book is really hard.
[32:37]You know, it's one thing to edit this and curate, which I feel like I've,
[32:41]I'm learning and I've mastered that sort of certain degree.
[32:44]But writing a book, us like alone is a whole other experience.
[32:48]So it's been taking me to another part of my mind and just expanding what I can do as a creative
[32:54]artist.
[32:55]And I'm, I'm up to the challenge, but I know it's going to take me a long time.
[32:59]And that's, and that's okay.
[33:02]But it's going to be, you know, I'm going to be a new mom soon.
[33:05]So I'm excited to be like, I can like share this with my son.
[33:09]And again, it's another part of like my legacy that it'll be.
[33:12]It'll be there when I'm gone.
[33:14]And, and hopefully, well, our black girl will still be there when I'm gone.
[33:17]Like I'm really working hard to create like a cultural institution that
[33:21]deserves as like a, almost like a digital archive of all these amazing
[33:25]new contemporary writers that are coming out because it's about the past,
[33:29]but it's also looking about the looking towards the future and how we can continue to have
[33:33]intergenerational conversations.
[33:35]So yeah, yeah, it's like, it's all, it's all those things.
[33:38]Okay, parting advice to aspiring authors.
[33:40]Oh, oh my goodness.
[33:42]Oh, parting advice to inspiring authors.
[33:45]I would say to innovate and take risks with your writing.
[33:49]Really play with form and structure.
[33:51]Don't be afraid to just be yourself on the page, whatever that looks like.
[33:57]Like the books that I'm drawn to always really play with dialogue and are like,
[34:02]really forward thinking and with how they want to approach their, their work.
[34:07]Just be yourself and, you know, and stand out as much as possible.
[34:11]And the, the writers that, some of the writers that we like love and really
[34:16]support today, like Audrey Lorde.
[34:18]And they weren't necessarily so popular during their,
[34:21]their time period.
[34:22]So think about that.
[34:22]Like think less about popularity and more about craft and quality.
[34:27]And you want the quality of your work to be outstanding.
[34:29]I love that.
[34:30]Thank you so much.
[34:31]Thank you, Gloria.
[34:32]Thank you for all this.
[34:33]Oh my gosh.
[34:34]Thank you.
[34:35]Bye.
[34:36]You've been listening to moms don't have time to read books with Zibi Owens.
[34:39]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com to get more updates about
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[34:55]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time to read books.
[34:59]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing.
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[35:07]Thanks for listening.
[35:08]You could always email me at zibiowens.com.