Caroline de Maigret, OLDER, BUT BETTER, BUT OLDER
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
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[0:39]contests, literary agents, and more. I'm here today with Caroline Demogre, who is the author
[0:45]with Sophie Moss of How to Be Parisian Wherever You Are from 2014, and most recently,
[0:50]older, but better, but older. She is an international model in his finish to know ambassadors
[0:55]since 2013. Caroline is also a music producer at bonus track records and a fashion video producer.
[1:00]She is a children's and women's rights activist. Caroline currently lives in Paris with
[1:05]her 12-year-old son. So welcome, Caroline. Thanks for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:10]Thanks for having me. Caroline just got off the flight from Paris through an hour-and-a-half
[1:15]light immigration and has landed in my desk. So this is like major bonus points for you for doing
[1:20]this. I'm so impressed. Well, you know, I didn't want to miss the opportunity to see you,
[1:26]but yeah, you have to be nice to me because of my mind is a bit, you know, in the cloud still.
[1:31]I will go very easy, honey. I just like listening to your beautiful accent. That's like the best part.
[1:37]I don't think anybody else from France has been on my job. Oh no. What about
[1:41]Sorry for whoever I just offended. Oh, you know what? I thought the writer from this
[1:49]cool-of-life. Oh, Elan de Bota. Elan de Bota. Elan de Bota. He's not French.
[1:52]Right. Oh, he is. Yeah. He's got a very, he's just have a French name.
[1:56]Yeah. Well, maybe his family was from France, but I think he's, he's definitely lives in London now.
[2:01]Yeah, and he went to Cambridge. Yeah. I'm studying in Cambridge.
[2:05]He identifies as a British. Yeah. Let's go with that. Anyway, please tell listeners about your
[2:10]latest book, older but better but older. This is your latest book. What is it about?
[2:15]It's about how, you know, you're just living your life on your 30s and then suddenly you have
[2:22]little surprises one after the other of that our signs of age might be from people around you or
[2:28]just society but also just you and your buddy. And the idea was to give like a knownest and fun
[2:37]way of seeing it because there are some great sites about aging and there are some not so fun
[2:47]sites. And I think, you know, we always aware of what it is when you become old, like in your 60s,
[2:53]like you know your biological, you learn about it at school and, you know, people tell you what
[2:58]happens but not the 40s and it's a strange feeling that's not always very nice. I agree.
[3:06]I'm 43. I am. I'm 44. Okay. Well, there you go. So I was reading this and there is basically
[3:12]everything I was agreeing with. Oh, wow. I'm like, oh, gosh. Oh, yes. Oh, this too. There were so many
[3:17]funny things. But I want to talk about how you decided on the format because I found that super
[3:22]interesting about your book. It's not just, it's almost a multimedia type of book in that you have
[3:29]not multimedia but a range of formats. You have poetry. You have essay. You have lists. You have
[3:34]photos. You have guidebook options to Paris and back. You have all sorts of different things.
[3:41]And yet, and then you have pictures almost like Instagram story-ish posts. It's like the perfect
[3:47]book for an attention. They start a busy person, which is part of why I liked it so much.
[3:53]How did you come up with this idea and this way of telling the story?
[3:57]I think I know no other way to do. I think it's that's how my life is. You know, I'm a
[4:04]music producer. I write books, but I won't say I'm a writer, but I write books. I'm a Chanel,
[4:11]I'm a Bachelorette. I'm a mother. I direct videos. So I do all these things. And I love to play
[4:20]with formats, and do long things and short things and just having ideas and put them down.
[4:27]And that's why I just, you know, sometimes I want to tell a long story and sometimes I just
[4:33]want to make you laugh with, you know, it was just like really short pens. I don't know. Yeah,
[4:40]I think it's how I am. And how was the collaboration? This is your second book that you wrote
[4:46]with Sophie Moss. Yes. How does that work? Do you sit in a room with her and write it all down?
[4:51]Do you email each other? Like what's the actual process the two of you go through to write these
[4:55]books together? What we do is we meet each other. We start talking about life. You know, what
[5:01]happened last week and then the months before Anna, stories love, stories, stories that work.
[5:09]And a little by little comes to you realize that lots of things you're going through,
[5:15]like neuroses and fears and are often linked to your age. So that's why it was very interesting.
[5:25]And so when you talk, you realize that sometimes most of your actions will be dependent,
[5:31]you know, on your age. On how, for example, you've learned how to live with some, you know,
[5:38]with your neuroses, but sometimes you don't. And how, I don't know, it's a process. So we do this
[5:44]and then she'll go, okay, so I want to write about, you know, the eggs. She went through it.
[5:51]And so I'll give her anecdotes. I have some friends, stories. And so that's how we do. So she's
[5:56]is going to write it at her house. Then send it to email. I correct it. And she does the same for
[6:01]my text. So it becomes like one voice kind of. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds great. Well, certainly,
[6:07]I mean, what's good is when, when, when you talk about a subject that's so large being the age,
[6:14]it's nice to have different voices to make it a bit more, you know, round and to have a sense of
[6:19]humor about it is also really helpful. Well, that's the only thing I found to make it okay,
[6:26]you know, it's life is the best of life and it's completely fine. You just have to get used to
[6:31]all the new surprises all the time. Do you? But if you learn how to, to love about it, then it makes
[6:36]it easier. And do you think that because you were this international modeling superstar that you're
[6:46]aging has been harder? Like, nobody cares about the fact that my looks are, you know, like,
[6:52]nobody's looking at me or most people, I would argue critically about their looks as intensely
[6:59]as they might somebody who has made a profession out of how they look. Do you think it affects people
[7:03]who are more sort of forward facing in their appearance? I don't think so. I think it affects the
[7:09]teenager in me that suddenly I'm not part of the club of the youth club anymore. While I still
[7:17]think I am, you know, I think that the fact that I'm still being taken my photo and do Chanel
[7:24]campaigns and stuff actually helps me because I'm not okay. I'm still okay. If they still want me,
[7:30]I'm still okay. And at the same time, it makes me proud as well to still, you know, to be,
[7:36]I mean, it's, I'm still really young. I mean, I think, to myself, that's how I feel. It makes me proud
[7:43]to keep on going and to still be, you know, a woman that other woman can look up to as an example.
[7:50]Like, you're still okay when you're 45 because, you know, you're still in fashion and your
[7:54]picture is still being taken. So what's been hardest part of aging for you?
[7:57]Yes, I do not. I'm not getting in the club. While I was writing the book, I had a midlife crisis.
[8:03]It was, there are a few different things. But the main thing was, I felt one day that it was the
[8:13]last chance for me to change everything, to change of boyfriend. I've been with my man for 15 years.
[8:19]We have a son. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to be with the same man all my life. I know it
[8:24]can be, you know, the goal of some people, but to me, it was so frightening, you know, it's that
[8:29]and you're like, you know, it's like my last years of being sexy, of being able to do whatever I
[8:35]want or whatever, to chance jobs, to change everything. And then, you know, it took me a year, I think,
[8:41]to went through it with anxiety attacks and all this thing. It was all crazy and I was going out
[8:47]every night. And then I was like, wow, you know, I'm actually am fine. And he's fine to me with
[8:53]the same person. And they can change. I want to. I mean, I realized how it was all cocoon. It was almost
[8:59]hyper-country. It was very megalomaniac. I understood it was something that I was going from a woman
[9:05]to the next woman. And I do that every 10 years to always have like a little burnout every 10 years.
[9:12]So, did you decide to stay with him? Yes. He did. He did. He did. He was still together.
[9:17]He's amazing. And he's been so nice. And I feel so much more alive since all those questions I went through
[9:26]and no, it was very interesting. He started the book with the section which was hilarious
[9:32]called, you know things aren't the way they used to be. And then you add all these things.
[9:36]So some of my favorites were, you no longer know who the hip singers and actors are.
[9:41]Because like, I read Us Weekly. I basically stopped reading it because I don't know who anybody is.
[9:45]And I feel terrible. My 12-year-old daughter is like telling me. I have to say I kind of lied to my
[9:50]sons and sons. But you know that. I'm like, oh yeah, yeah. I should do that. She's right through me
[9:56]that. I can't. I'm like the worst life. I'll get off.
[10:00]I won't point and I'll be completely on that.
[10:03]Just strange because age is a number.
[10:07]It's your bones and your cells aging, but your mind,
[10:11]your mind is aging, you know, and I learned so much
[10:13]and I love where I am.
[10:15]I mean, the serenity of it is amazing
[10:17]and knowledge is the key of everything.
[10:20]So I love where I am, but it's just so strange
[10:22]when your body is aging to someone else,
[10:26]while your mind is still, you know, it's not aging.
[10:30]I mean, it's getting knowledge,
[10:31]but it's not really aging.
[10:33]That's the problem.
[10:35]My dad is in his 70s and he says he looks in the mirror
[10:38]sometimes and is like, huh, you know,
[10:40]what's with the white hair, you know,
[10:42]because inside he feels like he's 25
[10:44]and then he looks at me and he's like,
[10:45]how can I have a daughter at your age?
[10:48]Like I feel so young and it's true.
[10:50]I mean, I don't feel some days I'm like,
[10:52]aren't I still 22?
[10:54]No, I don't know.
[10:55]So yeah, it's completely fine.
[10:58]It's just to have to get used to it,
[11:00]to all those ideas of not being a youngster anymore,
[11:05]to have not been, you know what I mean?
[11:07]It's just, it's fine.
[11:09]Yeah, but that's what the book is about.
[11:10]It's taking a fun look of it, you know.
[11:14]You also have this whole section,
[11:15]which I think is my favorite.
[11:17]All the times you tell yourself you're exercising
[11:19]when you're actually not.
[11:20]Today I was literally at the National History Museum
[11:23]with my five-year-old son, I love this.
[11:25]And I was like, oh, this is great.
[11:27]I'm getting a little workout here.
[11:28]Walking around to the cafeteria,
[11:29]to buy analog records.
[11:31]I'm like, this is not a workout.
[11:33]I used to work out all the time.
[11:34]I mean, oh my gosh.
[11:35]That's amazing what you can do to yourself today.
[11:38]Do you still work out?
[11:40]No, I've never worked out and I've never,
[11:41]I've never worked out and I've started now
[11:44]because I understood I had to just to be healthy
[11:48]and healthy in my mind as well.
[11:50]Like it's actually, you know,
[11:52]it feels good to the brain
[11:53]and just for the body to be, you know, not too stuck.
[11:56]No, I've never done it before. I hate it.
[11:59]I take no pleasure whatsoever and exercising
[12:01]and I wish, you know, people tell you,
[12:02]this time it will come, never did.
[12:05]And are you, was it you or Sophie in the book
[12:07]who's the one doing the yoga?
[12:09]Is it you?
[12:10]Because one of you said that in one of the trade-offs
[12:13]that you spoke, there was all these like,
[12:15]catch-22, right, that the trade-off is like the pain
[12:18]of having to do yoga and the boredom that comes with it.
[12:20]Yeah, well, it was me, I did a lot of yoga
[12:23]when I had my burnout 10 years ago.
[12:28]Oh, God, I found like a crazy one.
[12:30]And I did it and it made me, it was so good.
[12:33]Like I felt so good and so relieved
[12:36]and but every time it was held together,
[12:39]I hated it and I was so bored.
[12:42]So not for everybody, you know, it's not for everybody.
[12:47]So I also found it really interesting,
[12:49]your chapter on owning your insecurities.
[12:51]And maybe this was Sophie about her butt, was that you?
[12:54]No, it was me.
[12:55]It was fun, my style.
[12:57]So you said, the open the chapter by saying,
[13:00]I don't like my butt, I just don't.
[13:01]I've disliked it since the summer, I was 17,
[13:04]when a guy accosted me at the club to inform me
[13:06]that my ass hung low.
[13:09]And it's true, some random guy just came up to ya.
[13:11]I think he was flirting, you know how you take the power
[13:14]of or someone by saying something that nice.
[13:17]So then they're actually cool people
[13:20]because they're nice enough to talk to you
[13:24]while you're not that good, you know?
[13:26]They break you to take the power.
[13:30]So that was his strike.
[13:31]But then you, so I was like going through this whole essay
[13:34]thinking like, oh my gosh, if she hates her
[13:36]but the rest of us are just doomed.
[13:37]I mean, you know, no, no, I did really well.
[13:40]You're fine, it's actually a section in the book on style
[13:46]and how you go from flows and to find yourself
[13:51]and you hear what people say to you
[13:53]and which, you know, you should not listen to guys
[13:56]and clubs or say it's a bit shit.
[13:58]But it's, it's pretty much probably
[14:00]should not listen to guys and clubs.
[14:01]Period, full stuff.
[14:04]Anyway, go on.
[14:05]Yeah, it's more about how, you know,
[14:07]you listen to how people react and you just start a section.
[14:12]So this guy, you know, who told me about my,
[14:15]but that I had never looked in the mirror
[14:17]because I've never really looked at myself in the mirror.
[14:19]You know, it was more about seeing if I had two space
[14:22]around my massive subrussian mentees.
[14:24]And then I realized that I was like, oh my God, he's true,
[14:26]you know, and then I became really aware of that
[14:30]and I started making a whole masculine, notrogenous look
[14:36]and people reacted so well on it.
[14:39]And I was like, wow, you know, that's actually,
[14:42]it was actually quite a good idea to go on that look.
[14:45]You know, just to find bigger pants,
[14:47]but that was not like baggy pants.
[14:49]And so I went, meant pants and he went really well
[14:52]and people were all excited and I was like,
[14:54]oh, okay, so that could be a look.
[14:55]It's fun that he went from a flirt line in a club
[15:00]to actually my style that I kept for the last 25 years.
[15:04]And you have a whole philosophy of the difference
[15:07]between fashion and style,
[15:08]which your first book dealt with more, correct?
[15:11]What's the difference, fashion and style?
[15:13]And how do you keep your own style?
[15:15]I think style is about who you are
[15:17]and how you want to be perceived.
[15:19]So I think it's part of the knowledge you have
[15:23]and I reckon that, you know, the books you read
[15:26]and how you feed yourself watching movies
[15:28]and the exhibitions you go to, the paintings you see,
[15:32]it feeds probably consciously your taste
[15:37]and your knowledge.
[15:37]So I know that quite early, you know,
[15:42]Catherine Hepburn had an impact in me aesthetically,
[15:46]style wise with her, you know, high waist of pants
[15:50]and her white shirt.
[15:52]I was a bit messy actually, but yet super sexy,
[15:55]but very empowering.
[15:57]So it's funny how it just melts on you,
[16:00]knowledge melts on your, you know, taste
[16:02]and you understand better who you are
[16:05]and how you want to look like.
[16:07]So yeah, I would say that's, that's the difference.
[16:09]It would be knowledge and being true to yourself
[16:12]and who you are.
[16:13]Okay, I'll try to do that more.
[16:15]Are there any items that you can't live without,
[16:18]either clothing items, makeup items?
[16:22]Like, what do you depend on the most?
[16:24]Oh, my God, is my son and I, Tim?
[16:26]Sure.
[16:29]I guess my little jacket is kind of like a narmore.
[16:32]I always feel invincible when I wear that.
[16:35]So, so yeah, usually when I wear it,
[16:37]you know, I'm not in a super good mood.
[16:39]Oh, interesting.
[16:42]It was like when they couldn't hurt me or something.
[16:44]Yeah, I'm not very attached to my terrible things,
[16:47]to be honest.
[16:48]I like that, I like the insight into the jacket.
[16:51]I wonder if other people have those things,
[16:53]like big red flags to people who know them well.
[16:57]Like, I'm trying to think if I have anything.
[16:59]But I do, I mean, I do have a few pieces on that thing.
[17:03]I think you do without knowing.
[17:04]You have the few pieces that,
[17:06]when you are not feeling so good in the morning,
[17:08]you know, those pieces will be okay.
[17:11]Like, you know, you know, you're comfortable.
[17:14]You know, they'll fit you.
[17:15]Yeah.
[17:16]Like a white shirt.
[17:17]I know it's always-
[17:18]It's always a large pajama pants.
[17:20]It's like my son's extra large school sweatshirt.
[17:23]Maybe that's my, I'm in a bad mood.
[17:25]Stay away.
[17:26]Yeah.
[17:27]Same thing.
[17:28]Which is not half as chic as your outfit.
[17:32]So, what's coming next for you?
[17:34]You're so busy.
[17:35]You have so many different things.
[17:36]What are you most excited about that's coming in?
[17:39]Directing.
[17:40]It's, it just fulfills everything I like, you know,
[17:45]image and telling stories and people.
[17:49]I love it.
[17:49]I've never felt so at the right place
[17:53]than when I direct.
[17:55]So I've done fashion, you know, films for now
[17:59]for Chanel and other brands.
[18:03]And I'm writing my first short movie.
[18:05]So I'm producing it and directing it quite soon.
[18:08]So that's really exciting.
[18:09]And it's a fiction.
[18:10]Oh.
[18:11]So I'm very excited.
[18:12]Yeah.
[18:13]And I'm very excited as well for future.
[18:15]So what advice do you have for aging women who may not
[18:20]be super models that we're all going through the same thing
[18:24]at the same time.
[18:25]And like you say in your book, like finding
[18:27]the straight white hairs and all these little things that
[18:30]are creepy, the wrinkles and all these like very unpleasant,
[18:34]like annoying getting in the way of daily life things that
[18:37]are starting to happen, have any advice for?
[18:40]And so the first of all, perfection doesn't exist.
[18:44]So don't run after it.
[18:45]Take the pressure off.
[18:47]Because, you know, it's not that I think
[18:49]it's just frustrated all the time.
[18:52]So, you know, get used to the idea of aging, you know?
[18:56]And feed yourself with other things
[18:58]than looking at yourself in the mirror.
[19:01]Because when you're center of interest
[19:03]are in our stronger, physically it doesn't become as important.
[19:08]But also, what can I say?
[19:11]I say that a sense of humor on it always
[19:14]help because first of all, it makes for shine.
[19:17]And I think that's how you gain everybody in the room.
[19:21]I always say that, at least in fashion,
[19:24]like all the biggest muses were never the most beautiful girls.
[19:29]They were the wheat here, the most solar or women.
[19:34]So it's more into what you have to say and behave
[19:39]than your age, really.
[19:41]It's just a number.
[19:44]And I think also, when you have a sense of humor,
[19:47]people can't talk about it because you
[19:51]took about it first, you know what I mean?
[19:52]When you laugh about your white hair or whatever,
[19:54]or your date, if you make jokes before everyone,
[19:58]they can't use it.
[19:59]Right.
[20:00]Which is kind of like a good trick.
[20:02]That is a good trick.
[20:03]Yeah.
[20:04]I used to trick too.
[20:06]It's a good one.
[20:07]And how about any parting advice to aspiring authors,
[20:09]somebody who's looking at undertake a project
[20:12]like yours?
[20:13]Parting advice?
[20:14]Yeah, any advice to aspiring authors?
[20:16]Oh, sorry.
[20:17]I took part in the book.
[20:18]No, part in the book.
[20:19]At the end of our book.
[20:20]We are about to part.
[20:21]Oh, parting advice.
[20:23]I need parting advice.
[20:23]No, I think I'm good.
[20:25]No, I'll redo this question.
[20:26]But do you have any advice to aspiring authors
[20:29]who want to take on a book project, like the one that you just did?
[20:33]Yeah, you know what?
[20:34]I have never been in my life scared of failure.
[20:39]I don't, it doesn't do anything on me.
[20:42]What I love to do is create and do.
[20:44]So I always do, do, do, do, do.
[20:46]There are lots of stuff that never went through
[20:48]or that went through, but there were, you know,
[20:50]that didn't work out.
[20:52]So just, you know, go for it, do your things.
[20:55]And I think when I lived in the 90s in New York,
[20:58]that's where I got that energy from,
[21:01]which is not French at all, which was just, you know,
[21:04]do you can do it and, you know, whatever happens will see,
[21:07]but you're allowed to do it.
[21:09]And I think that's the biggest trick.
[21:12]And then, you know, you just put your ideas down
[21:15]and you go from that.
[21:17]Excellent.
[21:18]Well, thank you so much for coming on MOSSA.
[21:19]Thank you so much.
[21:20]I really appreciate it.
[21:21]Thank you.
[21:23]You've been listening to MOSSA
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