Thatcher Wine, FOR THE LOVE OF BOOKS
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[0:39]contests, literary agents, and more. I'm here today with Thatcher Wine, who's the co-author
[0:44]with Elizabeth Lane, for the love of books designing and curating a home library.
[0:49]Thatcher is the founder of Juniper Books, a company that works with book lovers, homeowners,
[0:54]and designers to create custom libraries. A graduate of Dartmouth College with a degree in history
[0:58]and art history. Thatcher lives in Boulder, Colorado, although he's originally from New York.
[1:03]Welcome, Thatcher. Thanks for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:06]Thanks so much for having me here. This is perfect, because you're probably a bigger,
[1:09]if not as big a book lover as me, so this is such a pleasure to talk to somebody who shares
[1:13]this passion for books. Your book for the love of books, let's talk about it. What's it about?
[1:18]So it's for love of books designing and curating a home library, and it's all about books.
[1:22]So it's for book lovers, buy a book lover. It's all about both collecting books in your home
[1:29]their content, as well as their beauty, and displaying them in a way that really reflects who you are.
[1:35]So tell me about founding Juniper Books, which is the company that you founded 18 years ago,
[1:41]and you still run. You are in the midst of this e-revolution of Kindle and all the stuff,
[1:47]and people were predicting the end of books altogether, and here you are starting your own
[1:51]publishing imprint essentially. Tell me about that whole experience.
[1:56]Yeah, and it never set out to start a book business. And even when I started selling books,
[2:01]I didn't consider it to be a business, really. I really considered it to be a hobby,
[2:05]that I enjoyed, had fun, you know, go to estate sales, library sales, antique auctions,
[2:11]things like that, coming home with a bunch of books, describing them, figuring out their first
[2:16]editions, if they were signed, if there were some provenance to, you know, who I'd owned them before,
[2:20]and putting them up on the internet in the early days, roughly, you know, of books going online.
[2:26]And, you know, one thing led to another, a few years later, I was still buying books and
[2:30]larger and larger quantities. And you hear about a bookstore going out of business, and I'd go buy
[2:34]their inventory. I figure out how to put all this on garage. Usually, yeah, I know. Because books take
[2:40]up space. We're in your beautiful studio surrounded by books. And, you know, one thing I love
[2:45]about books is they really do exist in the real world. And you can't have unlimited quantities of
[2:50]them. So figure out where to put them. And when you go buy 25,000 books from a bookstore in
[2:54]Lichfield, Connecticut, it's a challenge where they go. So I operated the business for a number
[3:00]of years out of my basement, and then out of my garage, and then out of a few storage units,
[3:06]and I'm in Boulder, Colorado. So, so I kind of had this, you know, root all around town where I had
[3:12]books stored and had bookshelf set up. And I, you know, it was very, kind of OCD about cataloging
[3:17]them and knowing exactly where everything was. But they're spread out for a long time. I think
[3:22]it wasn't till eight years into the business that I had an offsite warehouse. And then I closed
[3:27]all the storage units, got everything out of the basement as we were expecting our second child,
[3:31]and brought everything to one place. And that's now, well, that was one June for books headquarters,
[3:36]and then about five years later, we moved it. So eventually, you know, it became a real business
[3:40]with a real space. Eventually, you know, I had employees doing the catalog and shipping.
[3:45]How many books do you think you have now?
[3:48]These days, I think we have about 20,000 books in stock, and the business really transformed
[3:53]over the years. So it was really, it was about rare books and first editions back then, very,
[3:58]you know, antiquarian, kind of, the older, the better. Then made a couple shifts, like in the 2000s,
[4:05]some people asked if I could curate a library for their house, and then light bulb went off,
[4:08]like, oh, maybe this could be my niche curating collections for homeowners and hotel lobbies and things
[4:14]like that when they needed books. But eventually, it shifted to more and more new books,
[4:18]and fewer used books and old books, but we still do some of both.
[4:22]And talks to me about how you decided that book covers could be a canvas, because part of your
[4:28]book curation is not only filling libraries with the right things that appeal to those particular
[4:32]owners, but you also have this gift of recovering books and basically taking someone's interest
[4:39]you know, if they're interested in the mountains, having 100 books and all together, it's like a puzzle
[4:44]piece that adds up to a picture of a mountain. I probably didn't explain that very well.
[4:47]But anyway, how did you come up with that whole thing in addition?
[4:50]Yeah, I know that was perfect. I mean, it's really anything that you can imagine
[4:54]with books, we can do it and put that across the covers. And the epiphany,
[4:59]it was a few different epiphanies really. So we got, like, I think around 2008 or so,
[5:05]there's designer, very well-known designer, Felipe Stark, who is ordering lots of books for different
[5:10]properties in Miami and the Caribbean and Dallas and places like that. And each one was a different
[5:15]kind of color wall that, you know, would go into a hotel lobby or the spa in Miami or the club
[5:22]room in Dallas. And they were all, you know, can we have a thousand black books and a thousand
[5:26]white books? And I thought, okay, this is cool. This is like a better use for those books than
[5:30]them going into landfill. More just being pulped or thrown away. You know, but a light bulb kind of
[5:35]went off like, I wonder if, you know, there's some homeowners that want something similar,
[5:38]they want the white books, but they want to be able to find their books. So I started experimenting
[5:43]with custom printed jackets and initially just printing the titles on them. Then it went from there
[5:48]to, huh, can I change the color? Can I make them all pink? Can I make them, you know, royal blue?
[5:53]And then from there, I thought, okay, well, you know, one book, one printed jacket with one title
[5:59]is interesting. But when you push a few books together, like, you all of a sudden have more than
[6:03]just an inch and a half times nine inches tall. Like, could we do something really fun with that?
[6:08]And so if you do three books or 10 books or multiple shelves and all of a sudden you get four feet
[6:13]wide by four feet tall and you can print an Eiffel Tower across the shelves or the Brooklyn bridge
[6:18]or picture of, you know, trees in the forest. Like, you can really do so much more. And,
[6:25]and I thought of it as like this canvas that nobody else had really noticed before. I mean,
[6:29]obviously bookshelves have existed and book bindings have been around and sending your books to
[6:34]the book binder in London back in the day, you know, and getting your books to be uniform.
[6:39]But I thought, you know, we could unleash this whole creative potential. I'm of just putting
[6:44]any books together, especially the books that you want and the books that you've read or want to
[6:47]read and making them really special and artistic so they can be both a piece of art at the same time
[6:53]that they're totally functional. So cool. Thank you. I was gonna stand a little cookie,
[6:56]but I once had a session with this medium and she told me that in a prior life I was actually
[7:02]a book binder in London. So anyway, make of that what you will, but like every book lover's dream
[7:09]comes in. Yeah, exactly. She's probably just like this couple likes books. Look at that make up.
[7:13]She would like that's amazing. So you have this great business. You figure out this thing with
[7:19]canvases. How do you then spread the word about the fact that you do this? Like, was it through
[7:24]designers? I'm just interested. Like, I know I got to you originally without even meeting you,
[7:29]but through a designer for a previous home, my own to do some custom purple and gray and white
[7:34]books and everything. How did you you had this like, how do you go from having this brilliant idea
[7:39]of the then like being the one who's doing Gwyneth Paltter's books and everything?
[7:44]Yeah. So I mean, kind of like the business in general, I didn't set out with a master
[7:49]marketing plan either, let things unfold very organically. And you know, one thing that, you know,
[7:55]is a benefit of technology and kind of being the only one that does something is that when
[8:00]people Google you, you know, custom library builder or something like that, they can find us.
[8:04]Because there aren't that many people to do it. So I tried to make, even though I recognize
[8:07]early on that not everybody needs what we do, but that when they do think of it when they're
[8:13]remodeling a house, building a new house, you know, building a hotel, looking for a special gift
[8:18]to give somebody, you know, one to make ours our site easy to find. So on one hand, that's one
[8:23]way people find us through Google and other searches. And the other thing is that we've got a
[8:27]lot of great publicity over the years. So and I think I'd attribute that to, I think, you know,
[8:33]what we do is fun and creative and sort of fresh take on something that people love,
[8:37]especially people who are in print media. They all want print to stick around. We want to help
[8:42]them. They want to help us printed books, newspapers, you know, and sort of analog media have a lot
[8:48]common. So we got some really good press over the years. And then we also, you know, every time
[8:53]that we've worked with a customer, like the designers that we know in common, we treat them really
[8:58]well. And we consider everybody to be a customer for life. They might be coming to us for like
[9:02]a Harry Potter set now, but they might be back to remodel their house 10 years from now. And,
[9:07]you know, I treat everybody like kind of like, you know, I learned to treat them in my parents
[9:12]business growing up as a VIP just with really good service and make sure that everything was perfect.
[9:17]And your parents own the restaurant, the cold to drift. So you worked in the restaurant to do
[9:21]this or what? Yeah, when we first moved to New York City and child labor here, so we
[9:26]explained throughout the mouth. Yeah. We moved to New York City in 1979 from upstate New York. And my
[9:32]father used to be like a Wall Street attorney in small town attorney. He opened a restaurant
[9:36]aside and maybe like me never planned on having it be a full-time business, but he loved cooking
[9:42]and he family could do it really well. And even though he never went to, you know, culinary school
[9:46]or anything became one of the most celebrated chefs in New York in the 80s. So we moved to New
[9:51]York in 79. We lived above the restaurant and I called down an order dinner. That's so cool.
[9:56]And then occasionally my mom would call upstairs and be like, it's raining out, you know, just
[10:00]do your sister want to come down and check coats for the night and make some money and I
[10:04]like bring my homework to the coat room and you know check coats and read a book in the coat room
[10:09]and it was a fun way to grow up and then eventually you worked as a waiter, just a cook and
[10:13]experienced every job in the house. Yeah. And how do you cook? I do cook. Yeah, I love to cook.
[10:18]So definitely my sister and I learned from my dad and we love to cook. And I think a lot of the
[10:24]lessons I learned like we're talking about before, you know, about customer service and
[10:30]creativity and not really being bound by any conventions or, you know, if something seems like a
[10:36]crazy idea like you're probably on to something, if people tell it you're crazy and it's
[10:41]you know, it's not traditional, it's not accepted. And I think I've applied some of those same
[10:44]lessons to what I do in the book world. And how did you know, even though it seemed like every
[10:49]and maybe this goes back to what you're saying about being crazy, but how did you know when everybody
[10:54]being so pessimistic about books that there was still this intense passion for books that a
[10:58]lot of other people had and like what do books really give you that that you read or can't?
[11:04]Yeah. I mean, I think it really came from my own personal feelings about the printed book,
[11:08]my own history. And when, and I was in the tech industry for seven years coming out of college
[11:15]before I started shooting for books as a hobby. And so and I had been kind of burnt out on tech,
[11:21]even though I was in that industry. And this was before the iPhone was ever invented. This was
[11:24]like 2001 was the end of my career in the tech business. And I was sick of looking at screens.
[11:29]I needed to like touch and hold, you know, things and I have this year in between the tech world
[11:35]and, and Jennifer books where I, you know, learned to make pottery and played flamenco guitar
[11:40]and, you know, did very like immersive, single-focused, you know, tasks to kind of rewire my brain.
[11:48]And I knew, and books was one of reading and just like writing, I just screenwriting phase two
[11:54]and selling books were just one of the ways that I kind of like got back in touch with who I was
[12:00]and regained my attention span. And I knew, you know, even when everybody else was saying like,
[12:07]didn't you get the memo that ebooks are on the rise printed books aren't gonna exist?
[12:11]I knew that I wasn't alone. There were a lot of other people that felt the way I did.
[12:15]And a lot of people were kind of going along for the ride. Like, oh, maybe this will be great.
[12:19]Books will be accessible, but everywhere you can download them all. But I never thought it was a
[12:23]replacement. I thought it was kind of additive. Yes, you can go away on vacation with 40 books and
[12:29]figure out which one you like, but you still, when you get home and you have a comfortable reading
[12:32]chair, like, and you, you want to be surrounded by real books. Like that, that feeling you can't
[12:37]recreate with ebooks. And the more I talked to my customers in the earlier days, the more that
[12:42]resonated with them. And they said similar things in different words. So I felt like I was on
[12:47]to something. I knew it would be a niche, but I wasn't, you know, trying to completely change the
[12:53]world of publishing or media or turn back the tide. So people told me that the title of my podcast
[13:00]was too niche because it's only moms. I was like, if I could get all the moms, I would feel fine
[13:05]about that. Right. I mean, like, if you could get all the book lovers. Right. Exactly.
[13:08]That would be a lot of people. You'd be okay. When I always like, I mean, nearly everybody has
[13:14]books in their home, or they should. But so even if you get a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of
[13:19]a percent, you know, of people that have books in the books, like that's a huge, huge market.
[13:23]Yeah. Like there's very few things that almost everybody has in their house, you know, either one
[13:28]to five thousand of. And so, so I knew I was tapping into a big market, whether or not it was
[13:33]everybody or just a fractional. And I like how in your book you talk not just about the books,
[13:37]but the interaction of your own story, mixing with the stories of the authors and the books,
[13:43]and how when you put them on your shelves, it becomes this like unique combination. I didn't
[13:48]quote that very well. But here, I'll read your words. They were better than mine. When we add books,
[13:53]any printed books to our homes and lives and make space for them, something almost all chemical
[13:58]happens. All chemical. It's like, all chemical. Yeah. I thought it was like,
[14:01]I'll commit it. I'll chemical. I don't know. We combine the author and their story with who we are
[14:05]and our story. The combination of the author and their story plus us and our story is a new story
[14:10]and it's completely original. I love that. Thank you. Because it's like, you're so right.
[14:15]Well, if I could drop the mic now, I would just drop the mic. You said it. You said my words
[14:19]better than I can say to them. We don't even have circles. I'll just tell you that you're right
[14:22]and I'll move on if you want. I think it's something that we do without thinking about it,
[14:28]right? So you you go shopping for books, you're gifted books, and you keep a certain number of them.
[14:34]And then you move, you redecorate. Now, when you say, oh, this is like still part of,
[14:39]you know, it's still important to me. This one's not or like, I change my hobbies and no one
[14:44]underneath these books about Japanese gardens or whatever. You know, now I'm into Harley Davidson's
[14:49]whatever maybe. And so I think that like, there's something so unique about every book that's ever
[14:55]been written. Like, every author has spent years writing those books. And then those end up in
[15:00]yourself. It's like to just behind you, that represents like 100 years of work, which is amazing
[15:05]in itself. Then there's like the story of how you got the books. Every story you ever went to,
[15:11]you know, or every person I never gave it to, every trip that you've taken where you've taken
[15:16]those books. So you start to like see how every piece of a bookshelf is completely unique.
[15:22]And it's non accidental. And the combination of how those books ended up on that shelf right
[15:26]behind you. And then how you arranged them, which ones you decide to put at eye level versus,
[15:33]you know, a pie or maybe face out the covers. So I also describe it as like DNA. It's just completely
[15:40]unique what's on ourselves. And we bring as much to the shelves as the books bring to us.
[15:45]And so I really do think it's like alchemy or magic. Like we're just creating something
[15:49]completely new that only exists right here. So neat. I loved it. After I read your book, it was like,
[15:55]I think I might need to go through this room and now take out all the books that
[16:00]don't really fit or that like have traveled with me for years. And I don't even know why I still
[16:04]have them. Right. They're like some of these. And then I feel like people look and they're like,
[16:07]oh, she must like, I don't know. Tales of investment bankers. Like I have no interest in looking at
[16:14]again ever. And I bought for some articles. Anyway, I think maybe I have to leave. I'll try to find
[16:19]time to call over the shelves. It's fun to do and fun to refresh it every year. And like that's
[16:23]what for love books is all about. Like it's it's about looking at your books, self, bookshelves,
[16:27]you know, with new mindfulness and intention and refreshing it. Like just being like, does this
[16:33]tell part of our story, my story or not? And you know, in contrast to something like Marie
[16:38]Kondo, you know, does it spark joy? Like give most of your books away. Like I think there's,
[16:43]there's a middle ground between like keeping every book you've ever had and giving every book away.
[16:48]There's a middle path that's like, does this mean something to me? And books are not like other
[16:54]objects. They can have a lot more meaning in a lot of different ways. And there's a reason to keep
[16:59]them as a reflection of who you are and who you want to be. Well, Ben, you have also really great
[17:05]stuff in the book about how to foster a love of reading for your kids, which people have written
[17:09]entire other books about by the way. And you even had, I just have to flag and I guess you don't
[17:13]have it in your house anymore. But you put a magnetic strip. I'm making hand gestures that
[17:18]nobody can see horizontally and then intersected vertically magnetic. And then you put magnetic
[17:24]strips on your daughter's favorite books and choose a little girl. And she could magnetically
[17:28]put them up behind her bed. And I think that is the most clever thing.
[17:32]I thought so too. I wanted to turn into a product. So maybe from a lesson you can email me and we
[17:37]can collaborate on it. I thought that was one of the cool, I mean, not that the whole book was
[17:40]and cool. But just like, you obviously have all these continual stores of unique ideas and that
[17:44]I found to be. Yeah. And it was super cool. It was born out of reading my daughter to bed every night
[17:51]or named Shouseman. And you know, every parent probably can relate to this. You're like super
[17:56]tired and you take up one book and your kids are like one more. And then you like toss that one
[18:01]on the floor and you pick up another one and then you have this like messy pile of books on the floor.
[18:05]So we have a step stool. I have a step stool. Next time I said bed with all the books piling off.
[18:10]But yeah. So lots of books. No great way to organize them. And then also the covers are really
[18:16]super cool. Like beautiful artwork. You know, an art carl books or 10 little ladybugs was one of
[18:22]her favorite. So anyway, so we, you know, glued the magnets to the back and then would wrap them
[18:27]in a rubber band and then stick them to this magnetic shelf. It's like a magnetic bar behind us and
[18:32]down the side of the bed. So it's kind of a cool way to display the books during the day.
[18:36]And a great way to just pick them up and put them back as we finish them. And then when
[18:40]she got bored of a book, we'd retire it and then put a magnet on a new book and stick it up on a shelf.
[18:45]I love that. It was fun. Yeah. And there's some pictures of that in the book, like you said.
[18:49]Yes, which was great, better than I could describe them for sure. I just want to read this one
[18:54]quote. So a handful of the pages in the book are just beautiful one page quotes from other
[19:00]famous authors or notable figures. One of which is, if you read the book, this is by Haruki
[19:06]Murakami. I can't pronounce anything today. If you read the books that everyone else is reading,
[19:11]you can only think what everyone else is thinking, which I loved. I mean, I keep saying I love
[19:16]everything, but I really did because I feel like there's pressure sometimes to read all the
[19:21]best sellers or what the literary world thinks is like the greatest thing ever. But often I don't
[19:26]like that. And then I feel bad. Right. I want to read the books. I want to read. I feel like
[19:30]there's all this pressure, even like the theater sometimes, like everybody loves the show. Well,
[19:34]why don't I like it? There must be something wrong with me. But what you're saying, it's like,
[19:38]you need people to be like in different things. Anyway, you take it from there.
[19:42]Well, and it's Murakami really said it. So I can't take credit for him. But,
[19:45]you know, I know, but still. But I mean, to Elizabeth Lane, my co-author and I on the book,
[19:50]like she curated a lot of the quotes and then Gabe Smith did a really beautiful job laying
[19:54]our publisher published the book. And, but I think, you know, on the one hand,
[20:00]and everyone's reaction to a book
[20:03]can be completely different, kind of like what
[20:04]we were talking about before with, you know,
[20:06]something alchemical happening
[20:07]and your DNA and your reaction to the books.
[20:10]But at the same time, you know,
[20:12]books these days combined with mass media,
[20:16]you know, it's kind of like cable news
[20:18]or, you know, have you seen that new show on Netflix
[20:22]or whatever, like people tend to move in packs
[20:25]and some, you know, if everybody tells you,
[20:27]you should like this book,
[20:28]then you think you like it, even if you don't like it.
[20:31]And I think books are one of those great things
[20:33]where you can really make up your own mind first of all,
[20:36]and there's a book for everybody out there.
[20:38]I mean, there's unlimited books.
[20:40]If we just read every minute for us to realize
[20:42]we'd never be able to read, you know,
[20:44]a fraction of the books that are out there.
[20:45]So yeah, so I mean, I think if you don't like a book,
[20:48]put it down, go get a new one.
[20:50]You don't have to like a book
[20:51]just because someone told you you should like it
[20:53]or because it's a bestseller.
[20:54]And there's like 1,000 different bestseller lists.
[20:56]So, and awards and everything.
[20:58]So there's, you know, I think the same, you know,
[21:02]challenge with mass media, telling you
[21:04]you should like something.
[21:06]The internet just kind of opens up the possibilities
[21:07]that like, there's a lot of ways to figure out,
[21:09]oh, you know, customers who bought this,
[21:11]also bought that, or, you know,
[21:13]if you like for GONNA get,
[21:14]you'll also like these authors.
[21:16]Like, and you'll, they'll just,
[21:18]there's so much to explore and life is short.
[21:21]So there's probably good stuff to read out there.
[21:25]And I wanna hear a little bit
[21:27]about the process of writing this book
[21:29]and figuring out what to include.
[21:31]I don't know if you're comfortable
[21:32]talking about your lymphoma.
[21:33]You put in the book that you had been sick
[21:35]and so you had to rest, take it back
[21:36]and notch with your business,
[21:38]and you've invested that time to write this book.
[21:41]Whereas, I mean, you could have just like,
[21:43]you know, watch movies and that would have been fine.
[21:44]But tell me what that whole process was like
[21:47]and what it felt like to get this diagnosis
[21:49]and how you like sort of made sense of life at that time.
[21:54]Yeah. So two years ago,
[21:55]I always diagnosed with non-knowledge insulin foma
[21:57]just finished the tier anniversary of my treatment ending.
[22:00]And fortunately it was successful, so I'm cancer-free now.
[22:03]And, but it kind of came out of nowhere
[22:07]and, you know, I had to get into treatment immediately.
[22:10]It was a very aggressive form of cancer, stage two.
[22:12]And I had to, you know, stay home a lot
[22:15]and go to chemotherapy a lot.
[22:17]And I'd always considered myself a writer before that
[22:20]even though I'd never published anything.
[22:22]And so I had this time to reflect
[22:24]while I was, you know, still trying to run my business
[22:27]but not really dating in the office
[22:28]and having some extra time
[22:29]and trying to rest during the car recover.
[22:32]I was like, you know, when I emerge from this,
[22:34]I really do want to publish books.
[22:36]And I had like outlined six or seven of them at that point.
[22:40]Some fictions and some nonfiction.
[22:42]And one of them that I'd outlined was a book about what I do.
[22:46]And I really had a lot of time to reflect on why do I do it.
[22:48]Like, I think it's meaningful for the world.
[22:52]I think books encouraging people to read
[22:55]surround themselves with books.
[22:57]I have more books in the world is like a noble purpose
[22:59]but was I really doing enough to inspire people to do that.
[23:04]And with Juniper books, maybe too limited
[23:06]to just the customers who had found us
[23:08]and, you know, have the memes to hire us.
[23:09]Could I do something that was a little bit broader
[23:12]and really encourage people to look at all the books they own
[23:14]even if they never bought a single thing from us
[23:16]or hired us to do their library
[23:18]or if they never remodeled their house.
[23:19]If they just, you know, reorganize the paperbacks
[23:21]they have on their shelf.
[23:22]Could I provide a book that just gave them more insight
[23:25]about how to do that meaningfully inspired them
[23:27]and just kind of gave them permission to do
[23:30]what they want with their books.
[23:32]And in the world that we live in, just to read
[23:35]and like slow down and then it was okay to do that.
[23:37]They didn't have to feel like they, you know,
[23:39]had to be watching Netflix all day.
[23:42]So a few months after,
[23:45]I'm merging from cancer.
[23:45]I was like struggling with my energy level
[23:48]and getting back to work full time.
[23:50]I got an email from a publisher.
[23:53]And they said we want to do a book about home library design
[23:56]and we think you're the perfect person to write it.
[23:58]And I wrote back and I was like,
[24:00]well, not only am I the perfect person to write it,
[24:01]but I already started writing it.
[24:03]So let's do it.
[24:03]But I didn't shop it around.
[24:05]I'd known them from selling their books before
[24:08]and third in Utah, we're in Colorado.
[24:10]So we're like, we'll see you.
[24:11]Yeah, I'll buy this from, you know.
[24:12]The book world in New York.
[24:14]And yeah, it was a really good fit.
[24:16]Elizabeth Lane was the founder of Quarter Lane.
[24:19]A really nice book subscription company.
[24:21]And she's the book buyer for business in Massachusetts.
[24:24]And so she and I asked, I knew I needed help.
[24:27]I knew she was a great editor.
[24:28]And I needed help, you know, just staying on deadline
[24:31]and bounce ideas off of.
[24:33]And she's just, you know, another great book lover.
[24:35]So we worked together and it came together super quickly.
[24:38]That initial email, I think was in February.
[24:41]We basically had the deal outlined by the spring
[24:44]and the book was down in October.
[24:46]And then here we are a year later
[24:48]and out in the shelves and available, you know,
[24:50]for purchase and making a few stops in the book tour.
[24:53]And yeah, so it was, you know, a lot to go through
[24:58]to get to that point.
[24:59]But fortunately, like writing the book
[25:01]flowed very smoothly.
[25:03]And because I had that kind of wake up call
[25:05]that reminded me that I wanted to be a writer
[25:07]and to have a greater impact than just the business
[25:10]and really is very fulfilling
[25:12]to have the book out there on the show.
[25:13]So now.
[25:14]And what about the other five or six books?
[25:17]Yeah, so I'm working on one of them right now.
[25:21]Currently at the book proposal stage,
[25:23]trying to finish that up in the next couple of weeks.
[25:25]Nonfiction.
[25:26]Nonfiction more of like a productivity self improvement book.
[25:30]So I kind of looked at a lot of, you know,
[25:32]how am I able to get things done
[25:35]in this very noisy, multi tasking oriented world?
[25:38]And, you know, sort of coalesced my personal philosophy
[25:42]in two book and, you know, I'll be back in the future
[25:45]to talk more about it.
[25:46]I think it's a very like, I mean, it is truly how I get
[25:50]things done.
[25:50]And it reading is the launching off point
[25:52]to like really regaining your attention span
[25:55]and your focus and being able to do one thing at a time
[25:58]in order to do everything in life better.
[26:00]I totally believe that.
[26:01]Yeah.
[26:03]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[26:05]Yeah, I mean, definitely just keep writing.
[26:08]And I think, you know, the marketplace has changed so much
[26:11]that, you know, there are a lot of opportunities
[26:13]for self publishing that there weren't before.
[26:16]And there's a lot of variety in the marketplace
[26:19]in terms of genres that, you know, are always, you know,
[26:22]looking for more good books.
[26:24]You know, I think you have to, you have to get it done.
[26:27]You can't just talk about it.
[26:29]And I think, you know, even though I've in the book world
[26:31]and close to all the publishers and a lot of writers
[26:34]and have a lot of inspiration around me,
[26:36]like it took me 18 years to really sit down
[26:38]and finish a book.
[26:39]But I never gave up on the dream.
[26:41]And it took some other things to inspire me
[26:43]to finish a book.
[26:45]So I don't say don't give up, just keep writing.
[26:47]And in share, you're writing, too.
[26:50]I think I'm also like have a tendency to be a little protective
[26:53]but every time I've, you know, shared my writing with other people,
[26:56]definitely makes it stronger to get some feedback.
[26:58]Excellent.
[26:59]Thank you, Thatcher.
[27:00]Yeah, thanks for sharing.
[27:01]Your book is beautiful, not just to read,
[27:03]but also to look at.
[27:04]So thanks for putting that out there in the world.
[27:06]Thank you.
[27:07]Well, it's an honor to be in your library.
[27:08]Oh, thanks.
[27:10]You've been listening to Moms and have time to read books
[27:12]with Zibi Owens.
[27:13]Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter
[27:15]at zibiowans.com to get more updates about episodes like these
[27:19]and also lots of live events.
[27:21]Thanks so much.
[27:22]Today's episode has been sponsored by poets and writers.
[27:26]Visit pw.org to get inspired, connect with other writers
[27:29]and explore a treasure trove of information
[27:31]about writing contests, literary agents, and more.
[27:34]You can follow me on Instagram at momsdon'thavetimetoreadbooks.
[27:38]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[27:41]for the Sound Editing.
[27:42]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:44]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[27:47]Thanks for listening.
[27:48]You can always email me at zibiatzibiowans.com.