Kiley Reid, SUCH A FUN AGE
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[1:00]Zibi Owens.com. I'm here today with Kylie Reed, who's the author of Such a Fun 8.
[1:05]She's a recent graduate of the Iowa Writers Workshop, where she was awarded the Truman
[1:09]Capote Fellowship. Her short stories have been featured in plow shares,
[1:13]December, New South, and Lumina. She currently lives in Philadelphia, PA.
[1:17]So welcome, Kylie. Thanks for coming on Moms and her time to read books. Thanks for having me.
[1:21]Of course. So can you please tell listeners what Such a Fun 8 is about?
[1:25]Absolutely so. Such when age starts in 2015 and then Saturday night in September,
[1:30]we meet Amira Tucker. Amira is a 25-year-old African-American babysitter. She's at that post-graduate
[1:38]part in her life where she doesn't know what she wants to do. She kind of eats the same
[1:41]crock-pop meal four nights a week, but she does know she loves babysitting Briar Chamberlain.
[1:47]Briar is a chatty and odd three-year-old girl. So Amira is at a party and gets a call from Briar's
[1:53]mom Alex. Please take Briar. We had an emergency. Amira takes Briar to a grocery store where
[1:58]they're having fun. They're dancing until a white customer and a security guard accused her of
[2:04]stealing the child. Someone pulls out their phone. A video is taken and Alex Chamberlain kind of
[2:10]sets out to write the night's wrongs, but it turns into a bit of a comedy of good intentions
[2:16]after that and there's big themes of ownership, of holding grudges, of who belongs to who
[2:24]and of course, I mean you can't tell a story like this without talking about racing class as well.
[2:29]And childcare. And childcare. By the way, I'm so excited to finally be talking to you because I got
[2:37]this copy at Book Expo and put them gave me the bag that goes back. I've been carrying this
[2:43]like everywhere. I love it. It's different than all the bags. I can always find it. You're okay.
[2:47]So Kylie's cover. Sorry. As I'm like going off on a tangent is this really awesome. Black with
[2:53]like a brilliant, bluish color on top. I'm not patterned and then it's such a fun age and hot
[2:59]pink and it's just like the coolest cover. Not that you should judge a book by its cover, but if you
[3:02]were going to, this is a really cool cover. It's definitely a book fair bag that you can stuff a
[3:07]lot of books into. They did a really good job. Thank you for that. So how did you come up with
[3:13]that whole scene that you just described and making that the idea for a book? I think that
[3:17]scene came after experiencing the characters a little bit. I always start with characters and I'm
[3:21]really drawn to awkward interactions between characters. And the number three is a great number
[3:29]with awkwardness between relationships. And lucky for me, I ended up with two of those. One was
[3:34]between Amira and the woman should babysit for Alex and the man who films it, Kelly. And the
[3:40]other one, which is a really awkward dynamic sometimes, is between a mom of babysitter and the child,
[3:46]which I think is so interesting because there's weird ownership things of, well, it's my child.
[3:51]Well, I spend more time with her and then you have this non-reliable three-year-old who one day picks
[3:56]the mom, one day picks the babysitter. And so I think those relationships kind of guided me to
[4:02]the grocery store scene that didn't come to later. And you, this is your debut novel. This is it.
[4:08]And why child care, not child, not that it's about child care, but why like the scene between
[4:13]the knit? Were you ever a babysitter? Like I was a babysitter for a long time and I've been a
[4:17]camp counselor and did you have that kind of background or were you just interested or?
[4:21]The whole thing. I've been babysitting since I was 10. I was a camp counselor. I was an RA.
[4:24]I was a nanny for six years in New York City. And I'm still friends with a lot of families.
[4:29]And I babysat for, I watched a lot of interesting relationships. I was a party leader at the
[4:36]Craft Studio, which is pretty good. Oh, yeah. For a long time. You don't recognize me?
[4:40]I didn't recognize any parties. I did maybe eight a week for like three years. That was one of my
[4:45]favorite jobs. I loved it. And I think it was just huge inspiration for the world. I don't write
[4:51]auto fiction. So this is completely fictional, but of course I was inspired by listening to toddler
[4:56]speak, watching interactions. It was a huge point in the backdrop. Yeah. Excellent. Okay. Now I
[5:01]understand a little bit more. So one of your characters is the mom who goes by elites, but really
[5:08]we find out she is really Alex that she's sort of changed her name. And one thing I found interesting
[5:13]was her relationship with her friends and then a mirror is relationship with her friends. And they both
[5:17]have like a crew that they keep going back to and you alternate between these groups of friends.
[5:21]And there's this one funny scene that I really liked. Alex is on this urgent conference call about
[5:25]something else with her girlfriends. But then she admits to them that she gained weight recently.
[5:30]And her friend Jody says, elites, I love you. And you're beautiful. You always are. But I'm being a
[5:34]good friend right now and asking you how much weight you've gained. And he writes, elites looks down
[5:38]size and says, I'm afraid to check. And then her friend Tamara says, oh God, why did you say
[5:43]something earlier? And Jody says, you need to get your SHIT together because you were not this person.
[5:47]And then they all agree that they're going to have an intervention. I don't have girlfriends who
[5:52]say this to you. I've not been comfortable enough to sort of like be like, I need an intervention
[5:58]friends. Have you what made you tell me more about this scene? I mean, I wanted each Alice in a mirror
[6:04]to have these groups of really loyal, wonderful friends that also give terrible advice.
[6:10]Like a lot of friends do. So for me personally, I think I actually do have some relationships where
[6:16]someone for me would be different. If I said I hadn't written anything in a month, I have friends who
[6:21]would say what is going on with you. Like this isn't okay anymore. And I kind of like that accountability
[6:26]a little bit. I think that for Alice's friends, this is really not who you are. And that mixed with
[6:33]her moving to Philadelphia with her not writing her book like she's supposed to. I think that
[6:39]well, I also think it's telling that they're saying, oh my gosh, all of these things and you've
[6:42]gained weight, well, you really must not be okay. And I think that that's a reflection of the things
[6:46]that they know about her and who she is as a person. So I do like honest friends. I hope to keep
[6:52]him for a while, but I'm sure I'm sure that comment hurt. Jody's pretty brutal. So I mean, I like
[6:56]to think my friends are honest, but I think it's my own like, I don't know what you're willing to
[7:00]be held accountable for anyway. I agree. I agree. I agree. I think Alex is saying I'm afraid to
[7:05]check is kind of welcoming that comment a little bit. She's looking for a kick in the butt a little
[7:11]bit, but is that something that I would want someone to say to me? Absolutely not. So
[7:15]and you also contrast the way you write the language of the groups of friends. It's like very
[7:19]slang versus very proper versus I don't know. I was very struck by the slang in the book basically.
[7:26]Did you do that on purpose? I love like hyper realistic dialogues. So I like writing things the way
[7:32]that they're heard from the most part. Yeah. I think that there's two things going on and one
[7:37]having been a babysitter. I definitely talk differently than I do. I think everyone has what I
[7:42]call a receptionist voice, the voice they use at work, voice versus the voice they use
[7:46]privately. But of course, there's another dynamic of African-American people not being considered
[7:50]professional when they use certain vernacular and a mirror being very keen to that and what she
[7:56]wants to say in front of not only her employer, but someone who has a three-year-old child, even though,
[8:02]you know, when a mirror talks to Breyer and uses slang privately, I think that's when she
[8:05]really shines as well. But I think that she's rightfully nervous about what that would mean
[8:10]in front of Alex. Interesting. Yeah. I felt like it could be very cinematic. Like it felt like
[8:17]it could be reading like a screenplay in certain scenes. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah.
[8:21]Can you tell me a little more about your background in writing and how you started writing and
[8:25]how you ended up writing a book? Yeah. I went just to undergrad for theater and religious studies
[8:32]and there's not a ton of jobs for theater religious studies, but ended up writing a lot of my
[8:37]monologues and just trying to slip them through the radar. I'd always been interested in writing
[8:42]and in my mid-20s, I realized it was really what I wanted to do. I was a reception at the time
[8:47]and I was writing afterwards and slowly getting short stories placed different places.
[8:51]I applied to grad school the first time and I didn't get in anywhere. And the second time
[8:57]my husband had a job opportunity in Arkansas and he said, do you want to come with me, try again.
[9:02]So I did. I got a job at a coffee shop and just wrote my bed off and that time I got accepted
[9:06]into a writer's workshop where I just graduated from this past May. So this is also pretty new,
[9:13]but I would say it's in the past seven or eight years of taking writing seriously.
[9:17]And this is sort of a broad question, but I've always wondered what the Iowa Writers Workshop is
[9:21]like because people come here all over the world to Iowa for this. What's it about? Like what makes
[9:26]it so special? Tell me like inside scoop on that. Think what makes Iowa so special is they are
[9:32]the school that invented the workshop process where you turn and work the week before everyone
[9:37]reads it and then you sit there silently while everyone gives feedback. And so it's not easy.
[9:44]I think it's really important and I had a good experience especially with Paul Harding who I did
[9:49]the novel workshop with and just Walter who's also wonderful. It's difficult when everyone's
[9:54]going around talking about what's working or what's not working. And then you have to go to
[10:00]in her and show brave face right after.
[10:03]But I went in knowing that I wanted readers
[10:06]who would extend my time there.
[10:08]And I came out with three women who are just my people
[10:10]and my readers of everything.
[10:12]So it's difficult, it's cold,
[10:15]but it's so cold, you stay in and write all the time.
[10:18]I had a pretty lovely experience there.
[10:20]And especially I workshop this novel.
[10:22]And I probably took maybe 85% of the edits
[10:26]that were given to me, so that was a great workshop.
[10:28]Wow. Yeah.
[10:29]So how long did it take you to write this novel?
[10:31]I thought about it for maybe two years.
[10:34]I had these characters rolling around in my head,
[10:35]but actual pen to paper was maybe two and a half years.
[10:39]But then there was another year of editing
[10:40]with my editor once it sold.
[10:43]Wow. It's a lot of stuff.
[10:44]Yeah. How does it feel now that it's coming out?
[10:47]And it's like in your, there's a finished product.
[10:50]And I mean, I'm really excited to talk about the themes
[10:54]that I didn't even know I was writing about at the time.
[10:57]I'm really excited to have it in people's hands.
[10:59]There is a strange thing about being a writer
[11:01]and that the work is done and you change as a person,
[11:05]but your work doesn't change.
[11:07]And so this thing comes with you,
[11:10]even though if I went to set about writing this book again,
[11:13]I wouldn't do it the same way
[11:14]because we're always changing and I hope I always am.
[11:16]So it's strange, it's really exciting.
[11:18]It's nerve-wracking, but I'm super excited
[11:20]to have a platform and talk about these characters
[11:22]that I love and care about,
[11:24]but also about the systemic racism
[11:26]that puts certain people in places like this.
[11:29]So if you were starting this book again,
[11:32]now haven't changed, what would be different?
[11:34]Oh my Lord, I don't even know.
[11:35]I feel like the characters join you at a certain place
[11:39]and that's just like a complete place a little bit
[11:42]that you can't go back to,
[11:44]but hopefully whatever I write next will be that book.
[11:47]So did you set out, you said the themes
[11:49]that you didn't even know were there?
[11:51]Did you set out to write a book that would touch on
[11:53]issues of class and race?
[11:54]Or did you, was that an ancillary benefit
[11:57]after your characters sort of came to life?
[11:59]I truly believe that going into a novel
[12:02]using heavy-handed themes stands in the way of plot,
[12:06]but I also believe that no novel is non-political.
[12:10]I go in with characters and I think it's Terry Jones
[12:12]who talks about you wanna write about people's problems
[12:16]and not problems people because that just flattens
[12:19]everyone out.
[12:20]So I went in saying I wanna write about a mom,
[12:23]a nanny, and a new boyfriend.
[12:25]And I love books that are based in the world
[12:28]that we live in now.
[12:29]And so those other issues come out naturally
[12:31]and the issues that I really care about.
[12:33]So it's kind of a bonus.
[12:35]Huh, yeah, I like it.
[12:36]You also kind of trash Philadelphia.
[12:39]A little bitch in the night, it's my new home.
[12:41]I know, I know, I know.
[12:42]I just wanna read this cause it's so funny.
[12:44]You wrote at least wondered how she would ever
[12:46]call Philadelphia home.
[12:47]How could she keep her dexterity as a mother
[12:49]and small business owner while surrounded
[12:51]by the type of woman who halted
[12:52]security check flow because she'd forgotten
[12:54]to remove her jacket?
[12:56]I mean, Alex is really struggling to move
[13:00]from New York to Philadelphia.
[13:02]She's lonely and I think that her feelings of like,
[13:06]how am I gonna be who I was in New York?
[13:08]Kind of cut Philadelphia down.
[13:10]So all of those scenes are from Alex's final view
[13:13]or definitely her views of what Philadelphia is.
[13:16]But I also think she's really struggling.
[13:17]So I wanna give her that too.
[13:19]I love Philadelphia.
[13:20]And that's why I moved there.
[13:21]That's why they still look there.
[13:22]It's a wonderful place.
[13:24]And I kind of like, I like the opportunity
[13:27]to show Philadelphia through Alex's eyes
[13:29]and through a mirror's eyes too.
[13:30]Where did you go?
[13:31]I grew up in Tucson, Arizona,
[13:33]which is a great place.
[13:35]It's really hot.
[13:36]But then I spent nine years in New York City.
[13:38]I was in Arkansas for a bit.
[13:40]Iowa at Philadelphia is our new home.
[13:42]And I'm excited to be there.
[13:44]Excellent, yeah.
[13:45]Another one of my favorite scenes was during Thanksgiving,
[13:48]which I was actually like thinking about
[13:50]and rereading on Thanksgiving
[13:52]when they were in the linen closet
[13:53]surrounded by light bulbs and all the rest.
[13:56]And Alex leaks whatever is confiding in all her friends
[13:59]about the drama that's going on downstairs,
[14:01]which I won't go into and spoil anything.
[14:02]But tell me a little bit about that moment.
[14:04]Like, do you remember where you were when you were writing
[14:07]that scene to begin with and what you were thinking?
[14:10]And that's a good question.
[14:11]But whole entire Thanksgiving scene,
[14:13]I love, you make a bunch of characters.
[14:17]And then at some point, you put them all in a room together.
[14:19]And Thanksgiving that whole scene took me maybe eight weeks
[14:22]to figure out the logistics of.
[14:24]And I kept losing babies and not enjoying
[14:27]where kids were sitting.
[14:28]And I had to write out who's sitting in everywhere.
[14:30]And I loved the idea of a room within a room.
[14:33]And so Alex and all of her girlfriends meet up there
[14:36]to figure out how they're going to handle this evening.
[14:39]I love close quarters with women.
[14:42]There's a lot of bathroom scenes where women
[14:44]are in really close quarters together.
[14:46]And I think it's this moment where Alex,
[14:48]has a little bit of a breather before she
[14:51]has to go back out there and put a good face on.
[14:53]Her friends are, they are who they are.
[14:56]I mean, they're freaking out with her.
[14:58]And I love what my friends do that too.
[14:59]I kind of feel like that scene is a vision of a group text
[15:02]a little bit.
[15:03]And I wanted to keep the stakes high,
[15:06]but also kind of put her in a room and make her feel
[15:08]the tensence of a moment.
[15:11]Yeah, I could see that.
[15:13]So what is coming next for you?
[15:15]Like, what do you see as, like, what themes are you
[15:19]going to try or maybe you're not going
[15:21]to do any things in particular, since you don't want
[15:22]to be too heavy-handed.
[15:23]But like, when you think about what's to come,
[15:25]I mean, you're such a young writer to have such a big debut.
[15:28]And I feel like this book is already getting so much attention.
[15:31]What, like, how are you going to follow this?
[15:32]Are you feeling pressure?
[15:33]I always feel pressure.
[15:34]But I also, like I said before, it's always
[15:36]want to, I kind of love the idea of looking back
[15:40]and anything I've done five years ago
[15:41]and saying, I want to do better next time
[15:42]I want to be on a continual journey to being a good writer,
[15:45]which is a great thing, because it's not like, you know,
[15:48]a ballerina or the answer or anything.
[15:50]Hopefully I can get better as I go.
[15:52]As much as I don't want to be heavy-handed in my writing,
[15:55]I care about the quality of life that we live in.
[15:57]And so class warfare is something
[16:00]that I'm super interested in and want to keep writing about.
[16:02]I have started very, very weekly at novel number two,
[16:05]but I'm a slow reader and writer.
[16:07]So I want to take a little bit to do that.
[16:09]And I'm really excited to go on tour with this novel
[16:12]and see what really shook a chord with people as well.
[16:15]We were talking before, you say you read about 25 books a year,
[16:18]but you felt you feel badly about that.
[16:20]And I was saying a lot of people
[16:20]think that was a lot of books a year.
[16:22]Yeah, I mean, I guess I would expect myself to do more
[16:25]as it is my job now.
[16:26]But if I read a sentence that really hooks me,
[16:29]I need to take a moment, read it again, think about it.
[16:32]I'm also a big re-reader.
[16:34]I know a lot of people are anti-rereading,
[16:36]but if I love something, I'll read it again in six months.
[16:38]Like the whole book again.
[16:40]Yeah, there's a few everywhere.
[16:41]Is there something you can mention?
[16:43]Like a book that's special topics
[16:44]in Calamity Physics by Immersive Pessel.
[16:46]That's one of the most challenging and creative books
[16:51]I feel like there was to write.
[16:52]I love that book so much.
[16:53]And every time I read it again, which is maybe three times,
[16:56]I see something new.
[16:57]So yeah, are you a re-reader yourself?
[16:59]I'm only a re-reader in that my memory gets bad
[17:02]after a bunch of years.
[17:04]So now I read books that I read in my 20s
[17:08]and I have a different reaction to them now.
[17:10]I love that a little bit.
[17:11]There was a book I loved in my 20s called Drinking
[17:13]A Love Story by Caroline Knapp.
[17:14]And it was like, I love this book
[17:16]and I would always recommend it to people.
[17:17]And then recently I was like,
[17:18]why did I like this book so much?
[17:20]Let me go back to this.
[17:21]Like I don't really drink it.
[17:22]I mean, whatever.
[17:23]Like, I read it again.
[17:25]And I was like, huh, I see what I liked then,
[17:28]but this would not hit me the same way now.
[17:30]Oh, for sure.
[17:30]So I like that.
[17:32]But not like analyzing for craft the way you do
[17:35]to like delve into the mechanics,
[17:38]although you're much smarter than I am.
[17:40]I mean, you're like, no, I mean,
[17:41]that's like, it's really great that you do that now.
[17:44]But I don't, I don't do that.
[17:46]I think graduate school gave me the time and tools
[17:50]to look into what are you doing with this paragraph
[17:52]or doing the sentence with the rhythm of everything.
[17:54]And so going back, I'll definitely take a highlighter now
[17:57]and spend like a lot of time figuring out
[17:59]what they're doing and try to replicate it in some way.
[18:02]So for the characters in the book,
[18:04]are we supposed to like one of them more than the other?
[18:07]Like, do you have an affinity for a mere versus Alex?
[18:10]Like, do you want the reader to sort of come
[18:12]to their own decision?
[18:14]I mean, do you want them both to be equally likable?
[18:16]Like, should we be rooting for one of them
[18:17]versus the other one?
[18:19]I personally, well, one, I love all of my characters.
[18:22]I could not write about them unless I loved all of them.
[18:24]But I personally don't love it when I feel
[18:28]an author's urging me like one person or like another.
[18:31]And a lot of people will say to me,
[18:33]oh, I loved this person and then he did this
[18:35]and I didn't know I was supposed to feel.
[18:37]And I think that that feeling right there
[18:39]is exactly what I want readers to feel.
[18:41]I think we all have friends who we love a lot
[18:43]and then we hear them say something
[18:45]or do something and we go,
[18:46]look, what does that mean?
[18:48]Can we, should I say something?
[18:50]Should I not say something?
[18:51]And I think that's the feeling that I hope my readers
[18:54]get from it that these are humans and they're complicated.
[18:57]We all have relationships with people who
[19:00]we're not sure where their morals lie sometimes
[19:03]and what do we do with that feeling?
[19:05]I kind of want readers to rest in that uncomfortableness
[19:07]a little bit.
[19:08]But if they love someone and think they're being charming,
[19:10]great, if they later get really upset with them,
[19:13]that's fine too.
[19:14]I would love for them to take it as they come.
[19:16]And what about your commentary on race?
[19:18]Are you trying to say something with this book
[19:20]or do you just want people to analyze it or take it as it is?
[19:24]Like, is there my first goal with any book?
[19:27]Is that people enjoy it?
[19:28]I love getting so lost in a book that I forget about everything
[19:32]or I say, oh, just one more chapter one more chapter.
[19:35]As far as the politics in this book,
[19:38]I think I would prefer for people to kind of zone out a little bit
[19:42]and not look at people as individuals.
[19:45]Alex at her best can't change the world
[19:47]and a mirror at her best can't change the world either.
[19:50]But the situation that a mirror is in, she works her butt off.
[19:53]She's really good at her job
[19:55]and she doesn't have health insurance.
[19:56]I would love for people to think what her life would look like
[19:59]if she...
[20:00]He did have a backbone to fall into.
[20:02]And I hope that people can look at their friends
[20:03]and say, OK, Alex met Jody through Briar's doctor.
[20:09]That's how they met.
[20:10]And now they have these friends and her friends
[20:12]can hook her up with jobs or connections, everything else.
[20:15]Amira will never, in the under the system we live in,
[20:18]never go to the same doctor that Alex goes to.
[20:20]And so her friends and her are limited to resources.
[20:24]So I do feel that until everyone can share
[20:28]in the same good resources, these dynamics
[20:31]will exist in poor ways.
[20:33]So I would love for readers to open up a broader scope
[20:37]and look at what situations these characters
[20:39]are placed under.
[20:40]And the reason I keep asking is because you said
[20:42]you were excited to talk about all the themes.
[20:44]So I'm not trying to put you on the scotch.
[20:45]You're kidding, this is my favorite stuff.
[20:47]OK, OK.
[20:47]I'm like, I don't want to do the same.
[20:49]Yeah, of course.
[20:50]You don't want to talk about it, but anyway, I didn't need to.
[20:52]Not at all.
[20:53]So you are obviously a super gifted author
[20:56]and have great ideas.
[20:58]And I love even just the thoughtfulness you're putting
[21:01]into how you approach each book and everything.
[21:04]If somebody was just starting out and wants
[21:06]to be an author like you, what advice would you give them?
[21:09]I hate saying it because it's so like tried,
[21:12]but reading and writing all the time.
[21:15]I think this is one of those cool professions
[21:18]where you can try and copy what other people
[21:21]they're doing with your own style attached to it.
[21:24]And that can only improve your writing.
[21:26]I wrote many terrible novels before this one.
[21:29]But I think that it all impacts everything
[21:32]else you're doing as you learn to get rid of and old habits
[21:36]and get better ones at the same time.
[21:38]I think the best advice I could give for someone
[21:40]as a writer is to read nonfiction.
[21:43]It is something that I thought I would never be doing.
[21:45]But in my 20s, as I get interested in something,
[21:48]there's always an expert who's explored that world.
[21:52]And so watching documentaries or reading books
[21:55]about in my place class and for my next book,
[21:58]I read a book about universities that really inspired me.
[22:01]I would say to find the experts and take their work
[22:03]and put into your fiction.
[22:05]I was going to say it's like a historical fiction take,
[22:09]but it's like current day.
[22:10]It's like, so what is that you're going to do?
[22:12]I don't know.
[22:13]Yeah, present day fiction.
[22:14]Yeah, I'm not even sure.
[22:15]Yeah, we'll make up any kind of exactly.
[22:17]Starting with it, genre.
[22:19]Yes.
[22:19]I highly read the new genre of tradition.
[22:23]Anyway, well, thank you so much for coming
[22:24]and I'll have some time to read books.
[22:25]You're so welcome.
[22:26]Thanks for having me.
[22:27]Thank you.
[22:28]Thanks for listening to Momstone Have Time to Read Books,
[22:30]the award-winning podcast.
[22:32]Today's episode of Momstone Have Time to Read Books
[22:35]was sponsored by pediatrician in your pocket
[22:37]by Dr. Jennifer Tractenberg, Dr. DashGen.com,
[22:42]and your code PIP20P20 for 20% off of these
[22:47]can't miss modules that will make your parenting life
[22:49]so much easier.
[22:51]You can follow me on Instagram at Momstone Have Time
[22:54]to Read Books.
[22:55]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[22:57]for the sound editing.
[22:58]And thank you to Morningmoon Productions
[23:00]for providing this fantastic intro and outram music.
[23:03]Thanks for listening.
[23:04]You can always email me at zibbyadzibiowans.com.