Jamie Hantman, HEELS IN THE ARENA
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
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[0:43]them. Enter code Zibi ZIBBY for this exclusive offer. I'm here today with Jamie Brown-Hantman,
[0:49]who's the author of Heals in the Arena, Living Purple in a Red Blue Town.
[0:53]Jamie has worked at the highest levels of government, including at the White House and for the
[0:56]U.S. Department of Justice. In 2008, Politico named her one of the 50 politicals to watch.
[1:02]She currently lives in Northern Virginia with her husband and daughter. So welcome,
[1:05]Jamie, thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thank you for having me.
[1:09]I've been looking forward to this. Oh, me too. So please tell us Heals in the Arena, Living Purple
[1:14]in a Red Blue Town. What is this about and what inspired you to write it? So it is my memoir.
[1:18]And when people here are Washington memoir click, they want to go to the next channel because
[1:23]they usually think it's going to be some sort of self-serving sort of bloviating, name-dropping,
[1:29]very serious sort of book. And I wanted to do the opposite of that. I was sort of the goal
[1:36]was legally blonde meets bossy pants. So it is a memoir. And it's about my time working in
[1:42]Washington, mostly in government. But I tried to do it in a way that's a little more self-deprecating
[1:47]and hopefully a little bit funny. And you started it with this really funny quote when you're
[1:51]on an airplane with George Bush and that George W. Bush. And you told him at a certain point,
[1:57]a woman has to choose between her face and her ass. Tell me describe the scene and how that went
[2:02]over. Yeah, that was not something I thought was going to come out of my mouth. So one of the jobs that
[2:07]I had that I loved was I was working in the White House. I was a special assistant to the president
[2:12]for legislative affairs. And that means that we were the liaison for the president to Congress.
[2:17]And one of the most important parts of the job is to be there when members are with the president
[2:22]because you don't want them off by himself with members because they'll make up stuff about what
[2:26]he said and promised. So, you know, one of the best ways to do that and more fun ways was flying
[2:31]on Air Force One when he would invite members. We would be there. So we would each take turns flying
[2:35]on Air Force One. The person I was there accompanying that day was Senator Arlen's
[2:40]vector of Pennsylvania. And Senator Spector, for anybody who knows anything about him,
[2:44]as somebody who would not just go to the back of the plane in the guest lounge, he would go
[2:49]right to the president's office because that was sort of the type of person that he was,
[2:54]may he rest in peace. So I was hanging out in the president's office and so it was the president,
[2:59]Karl Rove, me and Senator Spector. And Senator Spector, excuse himself, excuse the restroom.
[3:05]And the president was just chatting with Karl about some big event he'd had at the White House
[3:10]the night before. And there had been a woman from Texas that they were both friends with
[3:14]who'd been there. And the president was going on and on about just how much weight the woman
[3:18]had lost. And she just looked great. And it was really impressive. It sounded like one of those
[3:23]biggest loser transformations. Not knowing who the person was. But then he paused and he sort of
[3:28]like nodded his head the way we all know and was thinking that it goes, you know. But she looks
[3:33]she looks a lot older now. And without even thinking about why was there who I was and what was
[3:38]going on, I just blurred out what you said. You know, well, they say at a certain point,
[3:41]a woman has a cheese between her face and her ass. As soon as the words came out of my mouth,
[3:45]I'm like, oh my God, whatever I just do, I set it out loud. But he sort of thought for a moment.
[3:51]And then he said, you know what, that's absolutely right.
[3:56]Very, really. Wow. Well, that sets the stage for the book and the history of your career.
[4:03]How to move forward when putting your foot in your mouth. Yeah, exactly.
[4:06]I like, it just makes you want to know what else you said about the steak.
[4:10]Things I said by mistake part two. So let's go back a little because the book is not just about
[4:16]your time in Washington, but it's also a memoir of your life and growing up and your family
[4:20]and your Christian faith and your upbringing, all of it. And one of the things you talked about
[4:25]was being obsessed with books, especially a book like a very young dancer, which by the way,
[4:29]with bio-dil comments, which I was obsessed with too, and has been in two books that I've read
[4:33]recently, years and another one. Wow. So I feel like, I don't know, it's been on the rain. Talk to me
[4:38]about the role that books played influencing you as a child. As soon as I learned how to read,
[4:43]I was just insatiable. Just had a book with me everywhere. My mom was a teacher,
[4:49]and so she encouraged that. And you know, summer as we do the weekly trip to the little library
[4:54]and moodous Connecticut that was unair-conditioned. It smelled like old books and old wooden floors,
[4:58]and that smell is one of my favorite smells in the world still. Sometimes she would read,
[5:03]allow to us, you know, we'd have one book that we would sort of read together so we could enjoy
[5:06]the story, but I just started consuming books and inhaling them basically. In second grade,
[5:13]we lived way out in the boondocks and had a long commute to school, and I would lay in the back of
[5:18]the hatchback with a little house on the prairie book. And I worked my way there. Yes, the whole
[5:23]series that year, without a seatbelt on, in a bag of a hatchback on the way to school and back.
[5:29]And then we had a station again. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then another one that is still probably
[5:36]my favorite book is Little Women. Just absolutely loved it. You know, when I was writing my memoir,
[5:42]every woman and gal who's read Little Women thinks to themselves, I'm Joe, I'm finally being
[5:47]through to myself and writing my story, and it will do well instead of all her little fancy
[5:52]full tales that she told. And I see that there's a movie coming out again, another remake,
[5:56]which I'm excited to see. And so, you know, lots of just books about strong women and girls,
[6:01]just, you know, doing things for themselves and getting through it. And I just, I'm so grateful
[6:07]that I was in a house that encouraged that. And your mom wasn't just a teacher. Right. So,
[6:12]your teacher. Yes. And I love the part when you were finally in one of her classes having watched
[6:17]you know, be with her students forever. And she started off wanting you to call her like Mrs.
[6:22]Mrs. Brown. Yeah. That didn't happen. Yeah, that was probably a couple weeks.
[6:26]Yeah. It was a little school and there were kids who called her mom. So I just thought,
[6:30]why should I call you Mrs. Brown when mom seems to be the standard. So
[6:36]my grandmother tells the story that she worked for my grandfather in his office
[6:40]for a week. And at the beginning, he was like, in this office, you will call me Mr. Phillips.
[6:45]And she was like, I don't think so. And she walked out. Never worked for him again. And for her,
[6:49]it's the kind of woman she is. So your mother, she was your teacher. She was like the central figure
[6:57]in your life. You wrote about her so beautifully. And you ended up later in your life,
[7:02]actually having her as a roommate, which I found really interesting. She's doing it back in my parents,
[7:06]but you didn't make it like, I'm moving back home. You were like, I chose my parents' roommates.
[7:11]Right. That's cool. My husband would say weird. No, no weird, whatever. I think it's cool.
[7:17]But I think I just wanted to talk about your relationship with her. And then I don't want to give
[7:21]anything away in the book. But I just wanted to touch on your relationship with her and how
[7:26]formative that was. And I don't know. Talk about, say something about my mom. She, you know,
[7:33]I mentioned she was a teacher. She was one of those teachers that her students will almost
[7:38]to a person say she was my favorite. She had an unbelievable impact at, you know, by the time
[7:44]her career was done with thousands of students. And she cared. She's very passionate about it.
[7:49]And so to have a front row seat to that, because I was in a little school, little Christian school,
[7:54]so we would ride to school and back. And, you know, she would love to talk about her day,
[7:57]because she was just so fired up about it. And then, you know, later I had her as teacher,
[8:03]and she was my government teacher in English and history. And so I guess it's, you know,
[8:08]not super surprising that I ended up going to law school and being involved in government,
[8:12]because I had this great foundation from Mrs. Brown. They're all to a shout out with her,
[8:18]her teacher name. And I thought it was so great when you got, there was one job you're particularly
[8:22]excited about getting. And for her, it wasn't just her daughter who would accomplish that,
[8:27]but her student. Right. Right. And that, you know, that was the great thing about living with them,
[8:32]again, was, you know, she was teaching at a school in Annapolis near DC. And we just had a
[8:37]tradition where every year I would go back and talk to her students. And with each job that I got
[8:43]in government sort of going up a ladder, you could tell she was more and more excited to introduce
[8:48]me to her students. She was so proud, which as a daughter, I mean, that just is a great, great feeling.
[8:54]And yeah, she, you know, I mean, the fact that I was able to get a job in the White House,
[8:58]I had her to thank for, you know, just starting in 12th grade, making me memorize probably 40 or 50
[9:05]US Supreme Court precedents for the final, which was more than I ever had to do in law school
[9:09]to show you sort of how demanding a teacher that she was. I also thought it was interesting
[9:15]what you said about law school, where you got to law school and realized like this is the one
[9:20]area where you don't necessarily have to be the top student. Right. And it opened you up to other
[9:26]things that were going on. You're in the middle of everything. Maybe classes weren't the most
[9:31]important, which for an overachiever. I'm sure was like jarring. Yes. Yeah, it was, I mean, I was one of
[9:37]those sort of Tracy flick types who was always about getting the top grades and doing the best
[9:42]that you can. And for me, I always had that goal of law school. And so that was high school,
[9:46]that was college. And then I get to the school of my dreams and air quotes. And I was like,
[9:51]uh-oh, I don't enjoy law school. I don't want to go to a firm. What did I just do? I'm going to be
[9:56]taking out all these student loans. Uh-oh. This is a mistake.
[10:00]And I was on phone with my dad and he was so adamant that it was really important to just stay
[10:05]with it and that it would open doors. You know, he's like, he's in business and he's like,
[10:09]you know, people with a lot of degrees, they're respected even if they're not practicing law.
[10:12]You just never know what's going to happen. So I took his advice. But the nice thing was that
[10:17]instead of worrying about sort of that Tracy flick mentality of doing the very best that I could
[10:23]and being top of the class, I viewed it as the first step of my career as opposed to the last
[10:29]step of my education. And it took a lot of pressure off and and also just knowing that I wasn't
[10:35]going to try and, you know, go to a big firm. And so I just, it's just the what? Right. I mean,
[10:40]yeah, no pressure. That's the irony. Like work for the president himself and whatever.
[10:46]But that's I think that's part of the irony is if you let yourself sort of seek where you
[10:53]fit the best and you're enjoying what you're doing, I ended up, as you said, in the White House
[10:58]with a bunch of the lawyers who were top of their class in Ivy League and we were all preparing,
[11:04]you know, the same nominee for Supreme Court hearing. So it worked out.
[11:08]So what do you attribute your success to? Like, is it persistence? Is it, what do you think?
[11:15]Yeah, it's definitely not just one thing. I think it starts with a foundation of doing your best
[11:24]when you're young and taking advantage of your education so that you are prepared for that little
[11:31]bit of luck. Like, it's got to be both. It has to be preparation. And then there is some element of
[11:37]sort of fate, karma, luck. However, the person views the world. It has to be piece of it because,
[11:43]you know, for every person who's working in the White House and highly qualified to do so,
[11:47]there are 30 with the same type of resume who are just not there because of not having a certain
[11:52]relationship or not being in the right place at the right time. And you say in your book too,
[11:57]sometimes you need to do the thing that scares you the most. Absolutely. Talk to me about that.
[12:03]What scares you the most now? Well, now it's, I'm sure it's different than back then when you were
[12:09]you know, pioneering in the, yeah, trumping through the halls of the White House. The funny thing is,
[12:14]once I had my daughter, the things that scared me about work didn't really have the same bite
[12:20]anymore. It put a lot of things in perspective. So, the things that would scare me the most
[12:25]actually are, you know, about my daughter and what happens to her. And I think you know,
[12:30]any mom can appreciate that. Professionally, I'm doing the thing that is scary, you know,
[12:35]putting a book out and especially a memoir. You know, it was one thing to have it sitting on my
[12:40]laptop for a year and a half. You know, it was this sort of thing that I worked on and hadn't
[12:44]entered her. And then once it came back and it was, you know, in tight face, the layout,
[12:49]it was, it hit you. Like, this is going to be there for anybody to read. And it's a,
[12:55]can't you have that moment where you sort of gulp? And then you're like, nope, we're doing this.
[12:58]Let's just see what happens. So, that's the scary thing now. So, what made you take it from the
[13:03]laptop to types that like, what made this into a book then now we're talking about it together?
[13:09]I, you know, I just realized that we are supposed to speak out and we each have a unique
[13:18]thing to contribute to the world. And one, you know, I have these interesting stories,
[13:23]but it isn't just about telling the stories. I tried to write it in a way where my stories
[13:29]can be helpful to other people, to young women who may want to go into public service in some way.
[13:35]We're in a time when people are incredibly interested in what's going on in our government.
[13:40]And, you know, it's exciting to see like, you know, women's march and the students march for
[13:46]our lives. There's so much passion. And I just wanted to provide a little bit of a guidebook
[13:51]for someone who may decide they want to take it to the next level, providing the lessons that I
[13:56]learned and just pieces of advice. A lot of it applies to DC, but some of it, I think, can apply
[14:01]no matter what you do. And what was your process like writing it? I am one of those people who can
[14:06]only write a little bit at a time. So I would do, you know, 500 to a thousand words a day.
[14:11]If I didn't get it done in the morning, it wasn't going to get done because I'm one of those
[14:15]people who's a morning person and then my energy depletes as the day goes on. I was nowhere near
[14:20]doing it on a daily basis, but when you have the goal and you just keep chopping away at it,
[14:24]it gets done. It took me probably about a year and a half of writing and the thing that really
[14:29]expedited is, is having an editor who I owed pages to. And then somehow it got done a lot
[14:35]quicker at that point. The accountability helps. So it's like basically everything.
[14:40]You talked about having broadcast news style breakdowns in the book, which I loved because I have
[14:46]always sort of referred to them as the same thing. For anyone who hasn't seen broadcast news,
[14:50]which came out in, I don't know, the 80s and 90s. There was a scene where
[14:54]Allie hunters at her desk and she would just unplug her phone back when phones were just
[14:58]landlines and unplug her phone, cried her desk, dry her eyes, plug her phone back and it
[15:02]get back to work. And you had moments like that. I'm sure we all have, how have you gotten
[15:07]through moments like that in your life? You know, you just, you just keep moving forward and
[15:12]reminding yourself that you're in the job that you have for a reason, you're qualified,
[15:16]you have the ability to do it. And you know, we're all human. And you know, in the times that I was
[15:23]doing these broadcast news style cries, the most was when I went to DOJ, I was in legislative affairs
[15:30]there. And after only four months in the department, they promoted me to run legislative affairs
[15:36]for the entire department. I would have never raised my hand and said I was ready for it. But they
[15:41]thought I was, which was a nice confidence boost, but it was really, you know, jumping into the deep
[15:47]end. And so the office that I inherited, I didn't move into the office, but it had a private
[15:53]bathroom. And so we were trying to get Attorney General Ashcroft ready for an oversight hearing and
[15:59]Senate Judiciary Committee, which is probably one of the most stressful things that you have to do
[16:04]in legislative affairs at DOJ because the knives are out when he goes up there. And I was, I was
[16:09]running the process of getting him ready and making sure that he, you know, no question would come
[16:14]his way that he wasn't ready to answer. And that was probably the most pressure I've felt in any
[16:19]sort of work project ever. And so sometimes I would just excuse myself and go into that nice little
[16:24]private bathroom and close the door and just, you know, let it out. And by my face and go back out
[16:31]and, you know, it took a lot of pressure off actually. It was a nice, a nice tool, I would say.
[16:38]Ryan can be helpful. Yes. I mean, yeah. So your sister went into the military.
[16:44]Right. You went into politics. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say there was something
[16:48]about your parents parenting that encouraged you both to do these sort of mission-driven,
[16:54]selfless type careers. What do you think it was? It was probably an example. You know, my mom,
[17:00]you know, being a teacher is such a mission-driven type career giving back to people. And my dad
[17:08]was in the computer industry, but he did everything that he could to support her. You know,
[17:14]he was there with her for all the extracurriculars and we had kids in our house all the time.
[17:18]So they were definitely a team. And it wasn't sort of an overt. You will do wax or you need to do
[17:24]wax. It was, you know, I'm thoroughly convinced that people can most impact other people by the way
[17:29]they live as opposed to the words that they say and the lives that they live just that was what
[17:35]you do. And you just, you see the impact that they have. And I think that's what they passed on.
[17:40]And they were also, you know, they were politically interested people that was sort of always
[17:46]around in the house conversation about what's going on in the news. And so that sort of,
[17:51]you know, I think impacted my interests. Speaking of politics, you and your husband are on
[17:58]opposite sides of the aisle. Right. How do you, especially in today's like highly charged
[18:06]divisive political environment? How do you navigate that big difference between the two of you?
[18:12]If it still is as pronounced as it was in the book, it is not as pronounced as it was in the
[18:17]book during the time that's covered in the book. When I was working for John Ashcroft in
[18:22]George W. Bush, he was working for Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer. And it wasn't just working for
[18:27]D's and ours. We were working on the same issues, but on opposite sides. So I was trying to get
[18:33]John Roberts confirmed to the Supreme Court and he was fighting to keep him off the Supreme Court.
[18:37]So we really had to, you know, figure out a way to be a couple with that sort of work situation,
[18:44]which I actually found it really good and helpful, both personally and professionally on the
[18:49]personal side, you know, DC is a company town. Most people come home and they just sort of talk about
[18:54]what they did all day and what's going on in politics. And that wasn't necessarily going to be
[18:59]a really fruitful good discussion for us. And so it forced us to talk about books and movies and,
[19:06]you know, all the other things that make up normal people's lives outside of Washington.
[19:10]And the other thing that it did for me that I think is it, you know, translates for people who may
[19:16]not be in that sort of fraught situation, sells, but needs to sort of get along with people on
[19:20]the other side of the aisle. It actually made me better at what I did because I couldn't go home
[19:25]and just complain about those crazy people on the other side and what they did to me today. And I
[19:30]had to fight against because he was the other side. And this is somebody that I loved. And so it
[19:35]behoove me to listen and try and figure out why he was coming from it from a different perspective.
[19:43]He loves his country as much as I do and wants to serve it and have it succeed. He has some
[19:50]different opinions about how to do that. And approaching it from that way makes a huge difference.
[19:55]And I think that's something that it would be helpful for a lot of people to remind themselves of
[20:00]out now because these are much, much worse
[20:02]in terms of political divide.
[20:04]My husband and I are not as politically divided at this point
[20:07]because as I talk about in the book,
[20:08]I now consider myself an independent
[20:11]because of the current president that we have.
[20:13]But it's still, we're going into a time of year
[20:17]during holidays when people are gonna be sitting around
[20:20]holiday tables with relatives
[20:22]with extremely different opinions about things.
[20:25]And one piece of advice that I thought was really great
[20:28]that I learned or heard was Arthur Brooks,
[20:31]wrote a book called Love Your Enemies.
[20:32]And he talks about the concept of contempt
[20:35]and how there's so much contempt
[20:37]and that that is the most dangerous attitude
[20:40]to have towards people with whom you disagree.
[20:43]It is corrosive in terms of how you view them.
[20:46]It's corrosive for yourself to hold those types of feelings.
[20:49]And so people need to realize that we are all humans,
[20:52]if you believe in God, we're all made in his image
[20:55]and start from that premise
[20:56]and then try and talk to them
[20:58]and figure out why they may feel the way that they do.
[21:01]So, and maybe not spend quite as much time on Twitter.
[21:04]I'll have a little bit.
[21:06]That's probably good advice for everybody.
[21:09]Yeah, I mean, yes.
[21:10]Was there anything that was really unexpected
[21:14]in the political world?
[21:16]I mean, I know you touched in the beginning of your book
[21:18]about not anticipating some of the physical comments
[21:22]people would make about like your hair
[21:24]and then how this goes back so long.
[21:26]And I know that like in the newspapers these days,
[21:28]people are always talking about how such and such a woman
[21:31]didn't like have, you know, right?
[21:32]Right.
[21:33]Yeah.
[21:34]Tell me about that aspect of things
[21:35]and if there was anything else that really,
[21:37]I don't know, through you off
[21:38]or you weren't expecting or.
[21:40]I, you know, one of the more comforting
[21:43]but unexpected things that I learned
[21:45]from some of these jobs that I had
[21:47]is that most people have some, we're all human
[21:50]and most people have some level of insecurity.
[21:53]You know, even at the highest levels,
[21:55]these people who go on TV and their senators
[21:58]or cabinet secretaries
[22:00]and, you know, you just think that they're just
[22:02]a master of the universe and the camera cuts off
[22:05]and it's how did I do?
[22:06]What did it, you know, like we're all,
[22:08]we all have that side to us
[22:10]and I think there's a lot of imposter syndrome in DC.
[22:13]I mean, I wasn't, I talk about it
[22:14]like the first page of the book is
[22:16]I'm sitting on Air Force One and I can't believe it
[22:18]and you keep expecting somebody to come tap you
[22:20]on the shoulder and say,
[22:21]there's no mistake, we're not sure how you made it in here
[22:24]but you gotta go so many of my colleagues
[22:26]unless you're like completely like off the charts
[22:29]arrogant, which first DC has to do for those two.
[22:32]Most normal people have that feeling
[22:35]and so it helps to know we're all just doing our best.
[22:38]I tell my kids this too and like my daughter
[22:41]was a little nervous about how her Halloween costume
[22:43]was like, and kindergarten and I'm like,
[22:45]everyone's thinking about their own costume
[22:48]and I'm not thinking about yours, right?
[22:50]And it starts then when you're first aware
[22:53]of yourself, it like the differences
[22:55]and then it goes all the way into the upper ranks
[22:57]of the government.
[22:58]We are all still kindergartners
[23:00]so people like our costume.
[23:01]Oh my gosh, so wait, so what are you doing now?
[23:06]So you finished, you had this consult,
[23:08]you tell me what you're doing now.
[23:09]So I once my daughter was born, I hung out a shingle
[23:13]because I wanted to continue to have some sort of work
[23:16]in intellectual stimulation and challenge
[23:19]but I wanted to be able to carve out my own hours
[23:21]and work smart, all moms know that you can get a lot done
[23:25]in a little bit of time.
[23:25]So I started consulting business doing government relations
[23:29]consulting.
[23:30]Right now my main client is every time for gun safety.
[23:33]So I'm working on the gun safety issue at the federal level,
[23:36]helping them especially background checks and red flags
[23:39]trying to get that passed at some point.
[23:42]So that keeps me very timely.
[23:44]Yes, I would imagine it's like such a hot issue
[23:46]with the moment.
[23:47]So important, do you get to,
[23:49]so if you have a consulting from a governor really,
[23:52]like do you have to agree with the people?
[23:55]Like would you take on a client whose mission
[23:57]you didn't agree with?
[23:58]Do you fight for them?
[23:59]No, I wouldn't.
[24:00]Some people surprised there are lobbyists
[24:02]who will do that kind of thing
[24:03]but I would need to feel at some level
[24:07]pretty comfortable with the client's agenda.
[24:10]You never get to agree 100% with a client
[24:13]but as long as there's sort of a fundamental alignment,
[24:16]I think it makes all the sense in the world.
[24:18]And so what is coming next for you now?
[24:20]You have this book coming out, so exciting.
[24:22]Or book out, so exciting.
[24:24]And you have your shingle hanging and you have your daughter.
[24:27]Yeah, where do you see life taking you?
[24:30]So one of the things that's been exciting about the book
[24:32]coming out is that a lot of the speaking opportunities
[24:34]that I'm getting are in front of audiences
[24:37]of younger people and young women.
[24:40]And so I'm gonna do every single one of those that I can.
[24:44]I just want to talk to them about how to do it.
[24:47]This is what they're interested in
[24:49]and how to do it smart and how to do it for the right reasons
[24:51]if they really want to go into public service.
[24:53]So we'll see where that goes on my mother's daughter.
[24:56]I would love to teach a class at some point.
[24:59]And then I also would love to have the book do well enough
[25:03]that I can justify spending the time writing a novel.
[25:06]I would like to do that next.
[25:07]Oh.
[25:08]Enough like talking about myself like that part is over.
[25:12]And then I want to pivot into fiction.
[25:14]Oh, that'd be great.
[25:15]I'm glad you mentioned speaking and giving speeches
[25:19]because you gave great advice in your book
[25:21]about giving impactful speeches.
[25:22]You said every time you give a speech
[25:24]strive to be interesting and authentic,
[25:26]never just go through the motions.
[25:27]Each speech is an opportunity.
[25:29]If your lips are moving,
[25:30]you should be thinking about whether
[25:32]what you're saying rings true to you
[25:34]and if it's adding value to the people who can hear you.
[25:37]That is great advice for any conversation.
[25:40]Not just the speech.
[25:41]Right.
[25:42]But if your lips are moving,
[25:43]what do you do?
[25:43]What do you do?
[25:45]And the lesson when I learned that lesson in a big way,
[25:49]it was when I was at DOJ and I had just gotten that promotion
[25:52]that sort of scared me.
[25:53]And within the first week of having the job,
[25:57]they told me I needed to give a presentation
[26:00]to the leadership of the department.
[26:02]So the top 30 people in that included Bob Mueller,
[26:06]Ted Olson, John Ashcroft, that group of leaders.
[26:09]And that's daunting.
[26:12]What am I going to say?
[26:13]It's going to make Bob Mueller's life a little better.
[26:16]And my predecessor sent me his notes.
[26:18]He's like, it's no problem.
[26:19]You just need to talk about what the office does
[26:21]and how it can help them.
[26:22]And I looked at his notes.
[26:24]He is one of my favorite people in a mentor,
[26:26]but they were his notes.
[26:27]And they were about our office being a sword in a shield.
[26:31]And it was all sort of very masculine metaphors and all that.
[26:34]And I just, I looked at that.
[26:36]I thought, you know what?
[26:37]That's dance approach, but I am me
[26:39]and I need to do this in a way that is true to me.
[26:43]And so the framing that I did, I wouldn't do it today
[26:45]because we're 15 years later and times have changed,
[26:48]but I used examples that were extremely feminine
[26:52]to make my points about how we worked with the hill.
[26:55]And I got great, great feedback from the leadership
[26:58]of the department.
[26:59]People loved it and they still remembered.
[27:00]I ran into someone at a cocktail party
[27:03]and 15 years later.
[27:04]He said, that was great.
[27:05]I still remember.
[27:06]So yeah, each time you're speaking,
[27:09]like I said, is an opportunity to make somebody's life better.
[27:12]Think about what you're saying.
[27:13]Don't just go through the motions
[27:14]and try and make a different each time if you can.
[27:16]Is that your advice to authors too
[27:19]in terms of what they would write?
[27:20]Like what other advice do you have to authors?
[27:22]Aspiring authors, or?
[27:24]I would say don't wait for anyone's permission to do this.
[27:28]You just, if you have something to say,
[27:30]you should be saying it, that you're gut telling you
[27:32]that you have something unique to put out into the world,
[27:35]don't wait for, don't become an influencer first
[27:38]so that you can then, you know, take the next step,
[27:41]write your book and put it out there
[27:43]and you just, you don't know what's gonna happen.
[27:44]Love it.
[27:45]Well, thank you for sharing your time
[27:47]and your expertise and experience with us.
[27:50]Oh, well, it's been a real pleasure.
[27:52]Thanks, Jamie.
[27:53]Thanks for listening to Momstone Have Time to Read Books,
[27:55]the award-winning podcast.
[27:57]This episode has been sponsored by Book of the Month Club.
[28:00]Book of the Month Club.com and your code Zibby
[28:03]to get your first book for just $5.
[28:05]You can follow me on Instagram
[28:06]at momstonehavetimetoreadbooks.
[28:09]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[28:12]for the Sound Editing.
[28:13]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:15]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[28:17]Thanks for listening.
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