Katherine Wintsch, SLAY LIKE A MOTHER
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens and you're listening to the Webby-nominated podcast.
[0:12]Moms don't have time to read books.
[0:13]Book of the Month Club is this week's sponsor.
[0:16]They're offering listeners their first book for only $5 with code Zibi,
[0:21]Z-I-B-B-Y. Again, that's code Zibi for your first book for $5 to book of the month club,
[0:27]which by the way is amazing. I subscribe every month. I get to pick from five of their favorite
[0:33]books. Most of the time, one of them is by an author. I've had it on my podcast.
[0:38]And then it just arrives. I've given it as a gift. I adore it and you will too.
[0:43]So think of it for gifts and for sure go on bookofthemonth.com and subscribe yourself.
[0:49]I'm here today with Kathryn Win. She's the CEO of the mom complex, a consulting company.
[0:54]The partners with the largest companies in the world to create better product services and
[0:58]experiences for mothers. She's a nationally recognized expert on the topic of modern
[1:03]and the author of Slay like a mother. How to destroy what's holding you back so you can live the
[1:07]life you want. Her research has been featured on the Today Show, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal,
[1:12]and other media outlets. She's spoken at TEDx and was recently named a woman of the decade
[1:16]by the woman's economic forum. She currently lives with her husband and two children in Richmond,
[1:21]Virginia. So welcome, Kathryn. Thanks for coming on, moms. Don't have time to read books.
[1:25]Hey, thanks for having me. I am so excited. I feel like we have, we could sit here for like hours.
[1:31]So I'll check it out. So your book, Slay like a mother. How to destroy what's holding you back so
[1:38]you can live the life you want was amazing and I got so much out of it. I continue to get so much out
[1:45]of it. What inspired you to write this book? Well, I was inspired to write the book because for 20
[1:50]years of my life I lived with what I refer to as my dragon of self doubt and I just never felt
[1:55]good enough from age 15 to 35. I wasn't thin enough, nice enough, tough enough. And in my life,
[2:03]that meant that I was an overachiever and I was just seeking approval and affection from everybody
[2:09]around me because I didn't have an inside of me and it was really an exhausting way to live.
[2:14]But in my role as CEO of the mom complex, I had the opportunity to study women in 17 countries
[2:20]around the world and I realized that we were all the same. That there was this ferocious beast
[2:27]of self doubt that was really holding us back and making us feel like crap. And it changed my life
[2:33]knowing that I wasn't alone and I thought why are we not talking about this crap? Like it's
[2:38]eating us all alive. And so I went on a two year self help journey and I learned how to slay my dragon
[2:45]and then I wrote this book to help other people do the same. And go back for a second and tell me
[2:50]about the mom complex. Yeah so I've run a company it's called mom complex and it's a consulting company
[2:56]and we work with some of the biggest companies and organizations in the world to better understand
[3:01]mothers, whether that's their mom employees or their mom customers. And then we helped them tailor
[3:08]better products and services and support for mothers. And how do you find all those moms?
[3:14]Well we have like a database of moms we call them our Maverick moms and if anybody wants to sign
[3:19]up you can go to the mom complex.com and we just tap into women all over the world. And you know
[3:25]we just paint a picture of what life is really like as a mother because a lot of people just don't
[3:30]know if they're not in it. You know just all the cognitive load that we carry in the stress and the
[3:35]mental anxiety. Yeah it's a cool job and we're small and boutique-y and very specialized and
[3:42]we work really hard and we do a great job but we don't sacrifice our sanity. That's amazing.
[3:48]I knew I would love this book when I opened the cover and you have all these cute little quotes
[3:52]and then one I love the most. It's time to shift from warrior to warrior which is great and then
[3:58]you explain later that your husband actually said that to you at one point and took you by the
[4:01]shoulders and like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. And the opening paragraph of your book you wrote
[4:06]are you tired of working your ass off and still feeling like you should be doing more? Do other
[4:11]mothers seem to glide through life on ice gates while you tuck your muffin top into your pants
[4:14]and pray you'll make it through Tuesday without losing your ever loving mind if so you picked up
[4:19]the right book. I was like oh I cannot wait to get into this. So tell me more about this warrior
[4:26]to warrior shift. Yeah so yeah most of us spend our life just worrying of this like doomsday
[4:32]future you know if our child fails the science test they're gonna be in jail by the time they're
[4:36]15 you know this fast forwarding and we live in so much fear and worry that things are gonna
[4:41]go wrong and most of the time they don't you know we're better at this and we give ourselves credit
[4:45]for but at the end of the day so much of the book is about the difference between struggling
[4:50]and suffering and struggling is brought on by the external forces in our lives. So we have
[4:56]multiple kids we have to get them fed we have to get them new clothes for fall because none of
[5:00]them fit whatever it is just the struggles but we dip down into suffering when we assume we're
[5:05]the only people that are struggling and so we think everybody else is perfect and they're again
[5:10]like skating around them ice skates and we're suffering because we think we're alone and we're
[5:14]knuckleheads and we suck and everybody else is perfect but at the end of the day we control the
[5:20]suffering and if we just beat ourselves up less and give ourselves some grace you know for going
[5:25]through hard times then the goal is just to struggle and so if you're struggling you're winning
[5:30]and that's the human existence and you can't buy your way out of it move your way out of it
[5:35]like you're stuck with struggling but we can suffer a lot less and the men suffer less than we do
[5:41]in general. So you give so many tips for basically how to calm these voices in our heads after
[5:47]making people feel not alone by acknowledging that so many of us share these the same sort of negative
[5:52]self-talk. One of the things that I found myself in the book is when you have their like lines
[5:57]that you leave open in the book for people to write in that say what's your negative self-talk
[6:02]like how would you punish yourself but then what would you say to a friend who did the same thing
[6:05]like I went to a birthday party on the wrong day what would you say to yourself I'd say like oh my
[6:11]gosh I'm such a moron I cannot believe I did that I can't keep my life together I'm terrible I'm
[6:15]not gonna be good about and what would you say to a friend you would say like I'm I just don't worry
[6:20]I've done that too like it's it happens there's so much to manage yeah so tell me about putting
[6:25]that in as a tool. Yeah I think it's really interesting and I've studied negative self-talk
[6:30]both in women and men and I'm generalizing here but for the most part when men share the last
[6:35]terrible thing they said to themselves it's critical you know like you missed the gem do better
[6:40]next time but for women it's often cruel and it's your fat your ugly it's a miracle your husband
[6:47]loves you I mean it's really dark I want to do like an art exhibit at some point of like all these
[6:52]negative thoughts that are so real and living inside of beautiful accomplished women you know it's
[6:58]just heart-wrenching but you can teach the voice in your head some manners it's not going to
[7:03]completely go away we all have negative self-talk for a reason but you can really you know
[7:09]reframe it like a friend and I'll give you an example so I was giving a speech the other day
[7:14]and I was showing a video and I happened to be in the video and my face came up and it was huge
[7:18]on the screen and then my first thought was like oh my gosh you look awful I mean it was just not
[7:23]my best moment but first of all I heard the voice you know which is literally half the battle
[7:29]like I recognize that I was saying that because old habits die hard and then I said you know what
[7:35]Catherine it's not your best moment like you don't look great in that video but some days you do
[7:40]you know and then you felt better yeah it's like we have to remember that we do have good day
[7:44]I mean yet that was not a good moment but I do have good moments and I do make good decisions and
[7:50]you know so we have to remember the good times too and it'll help lessen the bad and you showed
[7:56]me not showed me you have this video in which you interviewed a lot of women on the mean things
[8:01]they say to themselves and it's beautiful the way you did it oh my gosh it's amazing I'll have to
[8:06]link to it with this episode but yeah women are just saying like I have the worst style and
[8:11]I am so fat my kids are gonna you know get a bad role model for me and I'm just like negative
[8:16]thing after negative thing and I'm looking at these women and of course thinking well no she's not
[8:20]and right what is she talking about she's beautiful and of course and then you have them paired
[8:24]with other women and when they get together they can say those positive things like no no you
[8:30]so talk to me about that video and what made you do it and how can we get that to happen all
[8:36]the time honestly not just in like a three minute video yeah well it was an exercise that I was
[8:42]doing in my workshops I do workshops with women all over the world and get women together and that
[8:47]was something where I asked women to write down what's the last terrible thing that you said to
[8:51]yourself because I want people to see it in their own handwriting and I always say at some point
[8:55]this stuff has to get from outside of you you know it's like we have to extract it so it was just
[9:01]an exercise but then I thought they're so terrible I mean they were just so dark that it would be
[9:06]neat to do a video and to not tell the women what the video was about so I just recruited them
[9:11]for a video for the mom complex about being a mother they had no idea that and I remember a lot
[9:17]of men that were on the set they were like well how do you know that these women are going to
[9:21]show up and say terrible things because they were just randomly recruited you know for this
[9:26]and I was like oh just wait you know because they were like this is going to be a bust and you're
[9:30]paying money and they were concerned for me you know and then afterwards this guy was helping
[9:35]this 20s he was you know holding the boom mic during the video and he came over to me and he said
[9:41]the world really needs this book and I had no idea and you know I've had other men watch it
[9:48]and say that you know wow if I knew how hard my mom was on herself I would have been a better son
[9:54]I mean you know just really moving people and you know most of the men in our lives don't know
[10:00]that we speak to ourselves this way, you know, it's pretty hidden. And so I just want to expose it.
[10:05]And then I think the more we can be honest and share and open up about the things that we're
[10:11]having a hard time with, you know, it releases the power over you when you can talk about it.
[10:15]I feel like it's like one of those magic decoder things that the kids have,
[10:19]where they have a different thing. And then you have to get the right lens to see it through an
[10:23]all of a sudden. I feel like all of it, like your book is like the lens where like you can
[10:27]suddenly see all this stuff inside everyone. So yeah, people have said that. They've said that
[10:33]there are things that have been articulated in a way that they hadn't thought of before. They feel
[10:38]seen for the first time. And I remember feeling that way. And sometimes people say you have no idea,
[10:44]you know, how impactful your book is. And I'm like, but I do know because I was so broken for so long.
[10:50]And I remember reading books and being like, oh, she did it. I can do it. She's going to show me how,
[10:57]you know, like I remember the relief of feeling like I could get out of it, you know,
[11:03]like it was empowering. And you talking to your book about how bad it is that moms in particular
[11:09]compare themselves to others. I actually did my senior thesis on social comparison theories.
[11:14]So I'm very well acquainted with it. But how detrimental it is for all of us when we're constantly
[11:20]comparing ourselves. And then as we just said, Dan, to do this interview, I did Katherine,
[11:25]my mom started out trying to read tote bag. So cute. And I get it. But then she gave me this
[11:30]like amazing cooler bag with t-shirts and books and wine and everything. And I was like, oh, my gosh,
[11:36]I feel terrible. All I gave you is a tote bag. And she was like, don't compare.
[11:39]Right. Because it doesn't completely act so terrible. Anyway, so tell me why is this so bad?
[11:46]Well, it's bad because we make assumptions about other women. So you see one woman do something
[11:52]well. You know, she hosts a dinner party and she just kills it. And then all of a sudden we're like,
[11:56]oh, my gosh, I bet she got straight A's in high school. She never yells at her children. She
[12:00]you know, feels no pain when she steps on Legos. I mean, we just make these like sweeping assumptions
[12:06]about other people. And it's just not true. And then we try to live up to that. And it's like,
[12:11]we want to be the uber mom. We want to be like clean, like Karen and nice, like Becky and smart,
[12:17]like, you know, somebody else. And we want to, you know, have this superpower. But you know,
[12:23]the the litmus test I often ask people is think how much we put into birthday parties for our
[12:27]children. I mean, it's it's a little over the top. We're very often doing it for ourselves to make
[12:32]ourselves feel like a good mother. Like so I often ask people when I ask you, like what's the first birthday
[12:37]party that you remember as a child that you were like yours, not from photos, but you remember
[12:44]I remember being at my fourth birthday party. And we had it was like in our backyard, we had a guitar
[12:49]player guy. We had like a little hayride. But I really remember because I used to be really shy.
[12:54]And when the Kate came out, I was hysterically crying because I didn't want all the attention.
[12:58]And then I like went and hid. Anyway, I remember that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry mom. I know
[13:07]she did so many and the cake was beautiful. It was a little zippy and like it in like actual cake
[13:13]in those letters. And and yet I was too like overwhelmed. Yeah. Anyway, it's probably not the answer.
[13:18]Yeah. Yeah. So I love my first one. I remember young side. Most people, it's like I'm seven, eight
[13:23]or some people are like in their teens, but as mothers, we kill ourselves over these birthday parties,
[13:27]but the child doesn't even remember until, you know, most of the time they're like six, eight,
[13:34]ten years old, you know. And so we're just trying to, you know, one up other people to feel better
[13:38]about ourselves. But if we actually just talked to other people about their challenges, you know,
[13:43]just asking a girlfriend, like what are you struggling with these days? We can get other people to
[13:48]open it up. And then we'll see that we're all struggling. Like nobody's free from it. I feel like
[13:52]I've learned a lot from my older kids, my younger kids with the birthday party thing. Yes, it is.
[13:57]With my older kids, I wanted everything to be perfect and like printed invitations and like,
[14:03]I invited, like it was like a whole thing. And I literally just like planned my fourth child's birthday
[14:08]party. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like called the one gem. I sent the paper list post and I'm like,
[14:14]okay, 15 minutes done. And I'm just gonna show up. And you know what? Well, now you know what matter.
[14:18]I mean, you know, it's the fun there that, you know, it's funny. I interviewed, oh my gosh,
[14:22]she was it. She had a whole theory of min, max, min and time management. And I'm like,
[14:28]yeah, her name, my, anyway, I'll look it up. But it was sort of like, what's the minimum you can do
[14:33]for this task? What's the maximum? Oh, yeah. And mod, mod, max, min, or something. Anyway,
[14:38]and like, what do you like, basically you can, you can go all out for birthday parties? Yeah.
[14:42]You can do nothing and make one phone call. Where do you want to be in this task? Yeah, yeah.
[14:47]Yeah. And then do that. Yeah. Like, don't get carried away. Yeah. Okay. So I have a
[14:51]thought about that. I've been talking about lately, which is you have to choose which battles to
[14:56]lose. Like, what are you going to lose that? Because you can't win at everything. And if we treat
[15:00]everything as though it's the same priority, you know, we're just going to die trying. And the
[15:05]truth is not everything's created equal. So I'll give you an example. We have two kids. They're in
[15:09]two different schools. And so my husband has more involved in my son's school. I'm more involved
[15:13]in my daughter's school. And so when I go into my son's school, I feel like that dragon
[15:18]has self-doubt come back. Like, I don't know the moms. I don't know that. I mean, the teachers.
[15:22]And it's like, you're such a bad mom. And then I say, no, you know what? This is what I chose,
[15:28]I chose to lose this. Like, this was a decision. And this is what losing feels like, of course,
[15:32]I'm uncomfortable. I'm not here that often. You know, and it like releases all of that pressure
[15:37]to then be like, oh, I have to volunteer more, you know, and like, go back on my word. I said that
[15:42]I'm willing to lose the battle of looking like a great mom at my son's school. You know,
[15:48]and guess what? They have two parents that love them both and they're both getting lots of,
[15:51]you know, so like, nobody's missing out. This is a very fortunate challenge.
[15:56]I think that the pressure to be everywhere within the schools, I don't know,
[16:01]how I mean, my kids are in four different schools here. And I can't. I just can't be at all this
[16:06]places. And I'm like, you know what, the schools are trying to help the parents to want them
[16:11]for parents who want to be involved. It's a great thing. Absolutely. But if that's,
[16:15]making you feel terrible from missing every coffee, they're doing a coffee. Yes. So I try to
[16:19]sometimes reframe it. Like, they're trying, they're trying to cater to the parents. And yeah,
[16:24]you know, this is perfect for some parents. And maybe this level of involvement is not perfect for
[16:29]me. Yeah, just because it's offered doesn't mean I have to do everything. And I don't have to,
[16:34]like you've made a decision not to feel like a bad parent. Well, maybe that doesn't make you look
[16:38]like a bad parent. I know it goes back to the whole fear and like, it's not even real. I mean,
[16:42]it's just like, people don't think about you as much as you think they think about you.
[16:46]You know, people don't know for sure. I mean, we think they care a lot. But another tip in your
[16:51]book is is being able to say no, which I feel like is relating to what we're talking about.
[16:55]Do you have tips on like how to say no to certain things you don't over commit?
[16:59]I have so many tips. Great. I know you do from the book, but because I love this one,
[17:05]because it's really important. So this is something that I learned through being a working mother,
[17:09]but you don't have to be working to relate to it. So when I went back to work in the advertising
[17:13]industry after I had my first child, I had a great mentor in Boston. He said, you know, what do you
[17:18]want to protect? Like what kind of boundaries do you want to draw? And I was like, I want to be at
[17:22]home for dinner. Like I thought for some reason you eat dinner with babies, which you know, you don't,
[17:26]but I didn't know that, but I feel like it was the right answer. So that's what I said. And he said,
[17:29]okay, Catherine, I want you to think of your job like a teenage boy trying to make out with you.
[17:34]And I was like, okay. And he said, your job's job is to take everything you will give it and still
[17:41]want more. And so your job is to draw a boundary, your line of the sand, but what you are and are
[17:48]not willing to do with this teenage boy before the heat of the moment so that you don't cave
[17:54]and do something that you said you wouldn't want to do. So for example, saying in one fell swoop,
[17:59]by the way, I'm going to leave woman. I think would come up with that analogy. But anyway, go on.
[18:03]It was, but I guess it was like, it was, so I learned to say no, a, because I just picture people
[18:09]asking me things. I don't want to do like a teenage boy making out with me. And maybe it's
[18:13]because I made out with teenage boys. But I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that. But it was about
[18:18]drawing boundaries and bulk. Like I'm going to tell you that I'm not going to do this. You know,
[18:23]I'm going to leave at sex and do that so that you're not trying to muster up that courage every day.
[18:29]And then when someone's like, no, we need you to be on this conference call and it's on the west coast.
[18:33]And it won't be the same without you. And then you're like, you cave and you're like, okay,
[18:36]I'll make out with you. And you said you weren't going to. You know, so anyway, that really helped me
[18:41]of just, you know, people want things from you, not in a bad way. But guess what? The school fair
[18:47]is still going to go on if you say no. Like it's going to, and then it's almost like practice makes
[18:51]perfect because the more you say no, you the more you realize that the job still gets done.
[18:56]Everybody stays alive, you know, and you carve out a little bit of time. But my biggest tip is to put
[19:02]yourself on your calendar in the future. So your calendar tomorrow is probably really full and
[19:07]to take a lot of time for yourself tomorrow would be unrealistic. But six weeks from now,
[19:12]your calendar's not full. It has some blood and stuff on it, but it's not full. And so put yourself
[19:16]on reoccurring meetings is maybe it's like yoga or meditation or walking around the block or
[19:23]wine with girlfriends. It doesn't have to be healthy. But it's a reoccurring meeting, you know,
[19:27]every Tuesday morning, every lunchtime, whatever. And so then all the other when the future
[19:31]becomes the present, those will be there. But then everything else will still fit. But you'll
[19:37]have yourself on your calendar first. Well, I like that. But I'm thinking like, when could I put that in?
[19:43]And so you do like do two or three things a week to start. And what I do is I color code it purple
[19:48]and I call it my mojo color. And so then it's like adequate glance. Like if I were to look at my calendar
[19:54]next week, if there's not enough purple on it, it means I'm slipping back into my old ways.
[19:59]Am I an old way?
[20:00]were that the belief that other people deserved my time more than I did and that I would give
[20:06]it all the way. I mean that's so if it's not enough purple there it's like I have to fix that
[20:11]and it's an immediate like kind of recognition for me to know and there's something different
[20:16]to about deleting yourself from your calendar as opposed to trying to put it there like you're
[20:20]saying that you're a priority and trying not to move it you know interesting get some purple
[20:26]yeah and then again it's all like all of this is the tips and tricks and the teenage boys
[20:31]and stuff like they're little hacks but the end of the day you have to love yourself in order
[20:36]to spend time with yourself like to make yourself a priority so you have to fix the root cause
[20:41]you know and then how do you fix the guilt like how do you fix guilt that we have about so many
[20:46]things like moms working and feeling guilty moms not working and feeling guilty like every everybody
[20:52]feels guilty about something how do we release ourselves from the perpetual state of guilt
[20:58]I think a lot of the guilt comes when we spend time on ourselves when we don't think we're worthy of
[21:03]spending time on ourselves so there's guilt that we're not doing things for other people is
[21:07]usually where the guilt comes down to and heaven forbid we insert ourselves you know into that
[21:12]pie so I think that's where the guilt comes from but when you do learn to love yourself and value
[21:17]your time with self and personal development and and all of those things that I now feel so much
[21:23]less guilt because I believe I'm an important piece of the pie you know that there's only so many
[21:28]hours of the day and I would like to have some of them you know for me and I have more energy
[21:34]because of it like I actually feel like I have more to give away because I'm happier and more fulfilled
[21:40]than not so depleted so I think the the guilt kind of naturally dissipates when you believe that
[21:49]you kind of you know have a seat at that timetable and what about this whole concept of wearing the
[21:54]mask of motherhood that you talk about and you've touched it and like today's show and all these
[21:58]yeah you publicly talk about a lot how do we get rid of it what is it yeah the mask is the you know
[22:04]just always walking around like I'm fine and fine I don't need any help everything's great and
[22:08]what I always say about the mask is that other people might not know you're wearing a mask but
[22:13]you know you're wearing a mask and every time you lie and you say you're fine when you're not you're
[22:18]basically telling your soul that that other person's opinion of you matters more than the truth that's
[22:25]what like your soul hears it when you lie and so I wore a mask for 20 years and I fooled a lot of
[22:32]people and everybody thought I was very happy because I was successful and you know I matched the
[22:38]image in their mind but I was very hollow and empty on the inside and you know eventually you have
[22:44]to take that mask off because you can't really truly feel loved like showing who you really are
[22:51]and then feeling loved is a totally different you know ball game that I had a lot of people
[22:56]sharing me on and saying they loved me but I could never really feel it because I didn't believe it
[23:02]and you know it takes work it doesn't happen overnight it's not going to happen from reading one
[23:07]book this would be a great jump start for anybody you know on that journey but
[23:13]you know I highly recommend therapy and I had a life coach for a long time which was even more
[23:18]actionable than therapy and I really believe in talking about this stuff out loud and admitting it
[23:24]and it'll start to dissipate so what else can we do like on a large scale to get this
[23:31]so I mean I do feel that there has been a shift towards being open about our feelings and you know
[23:38]authenticity and you know I'm very open when I have like big mom's fails and all this stuff but like
[23:44]how can is there anything on a societal level that we can do like aside from just trying to reach
[23:50]moms over and over right yeah I think you know on the we're doing some work through the mom complex
[23:55]like on the corporate side of life where we're going inside of companies and helping their working
[24:01]moms through some of these lessons that some might brush off is like personal development but
[24:06]it's really professional development in the sense that and I'll tell you a funny story about this
[24:11]but for many women we have to get these cobwebs out you know we have to learn to believe in
[24:17]ourselves and I'll give you an example so I was given a speech recently and I asked everyone
[24:22]in the audience to think of the last terrible thing they said to themselves after they saw the video
[24:26]that you saw them and there happened to be a husband and wife in the front row and the the wife was
[24:31]like oh my god so then I said sorry now share it with the person next to you and the wife is like
[24:37]oh my gosh mine are so horrible you know which one am I gonna pick I don't want my husband to know
[24:42]that I have all these horrible things that I save on myself so she stalls and she's like you go
[24:47]so he goes I just I can't think of anything I can't think of the last terrible thing that I said
[24:53]to myself and this woman posted on Instagram and she said ladies like all caps she was like
[25:00]this is why men rule the world can you imagine what you could do and who you could be as a woman
[25:07]if you didn't you couldn't think of the last terrible thing you said to yourself so I think that's
[25:11]like the next frontier is corporations figuring out that women have this inside of them and they
[25:18]can help alleviate it then we'll have more to give at home more to give you know in the world
[25:25]wow so tell me a little more about the writing of this book when did you write this book
[25:30]when did you find time to write this book how did you prioritize it was did this count is a purple
[25:34]entry in your calendar oh that's a great question yeah I mean I definitely would consider it
[25:39]purple because it was so personal and amazing but for me it was much harder to get the book
[25:44]deal than it was to write the book so for me I had a book proposal for so for nonfiction
[25:50]and it was rejected for four years by 23 publishers and it got better over time I mean thank goodness
[25:58]I'm glad the earlier versions didn't sell but a lot of rejection but I just refused to give up
[26:04]and I knew that these tools and tips and tricks would really save people a lot of heartache so
[26:09]just kept going and kept going so I finally got the deal in July of 2017 and I wrote it in seven
[26:19]months but it was nine hours a day five days a week for seven months and so what I did was I worked
[26:28]one day a week for my company I wrote five days a week and then I just took one day as like pure
[26:33]family day and that's what the edit had a wonderful editor and that's what she said because it was 75,000
[26:40]words and like you know get it and that was all the edits done too in that time period and so I was
[26:47]so glad she told me that like piece because I would have been like oh I have you know seven or eight
[26:53]months and I probably would have started a lot slower but this time I was like oh shit you know
[26:58]like this is serious but I was very blessed and that I have a wonderful team at work at the mom
[27:04]complex and my business partner Lauren was like I will run this company we will do a great job don't
[27:11]answer emails you know we the one day a week will book your whole calendar and you can help but
[27:16]we're not going to bug you outside of that and I have an amazingly supportive husband and he was
[27:22]like you got one shot you know to write your first book and this is it and I had wanted it so
[27:27]long and I've been rejected for so long so I think people were so happy to help because there
[27:32]was so long that we just thought it wouldn't happen wow yeah so I was freed up but it was I loved it
[27:38]I loved writing it I cried every day like I just for my own story like getting it on paper but
[27:45]also like I knew that it would help people I just knew the relief that came from what I was
[27:50]writing about for me for me and to do that like on a big scale was just crazy to me
[27:57]crazy and so glad you didn't give up yeah I'm sometimes like people come in and I'm like why would
[28:02]that book be rejected why I mean it's super helpful well anyway I don't know I'm not a publisher
[28:08]but yeah yeah that's yeah I guess so what is coming next for you now what do you want to do next
[28:16]tell me your plan I'm not itching to write a second book most people ask that but I love this book
[28:22]and this is the message that I want to share and I wanted to change millions of people's lives
[28:28]and I want to do the work for that you know first because I do think it's a foundation I think
[28:34]eventually I'd love to write about like daughters fighting dragons and this you know self doubt
[28:40]and everything that lives inside of young girls could be pretty interesting but until then I just
[28:45]want to get the word out and I really love to do and want to spread the word about doing
[28:51]speaking engagements and workshops with women I do them for non-profit some speaking tomorrow
[28:57]for an organization called Girls on the Run and about teenage girls and yeah I love being in person
[29:03]with people and I think it's a great message and I just want to do more of it that's awesome thank
[29:10]you for crusading on behalf of all of us really yeah do you have any parting advice to aspiring
[29:15]authors I would say find an insider that can really help you navigate the way and I did that
[29:23]for this process I worked with the woman Christina Grish who was had written several books and she
[29:28]was an editor herself but she just helped me navigate you know that it's her proposal it's not the
[29:34]full thing and you got it right in this tone and they want to hear it you know and so I was doing a
[29:40]lot of the leg work of the writing but she was just helping frame everything for me and like
[29:45]don't expect an agent to call you back and reach out to 50 of them to find one I mean you need
[29:51]and there's plenty of people out there and and I love helping people too and like let me tell you
[29:55]what not to do because as a first time author it's extraordinarily hard to get a
[30:00]But it can't be done.
[30:01]I mean, I didn't have any credentials, you know,
[30:04]to be an author and I figured it out.
[30:05]But find somebody, find a guide,
[30:08]get one out of everyone's gonna call you.
[30:09]I won't give yourself one.
[30:12]Yeah, right, right.
[30:14]Well, thank you.
[30:15]Thanks for coming on mom's no temptary books.
[30:16]Thank you for sharing all your advice.
[30:18]I really hope your message gets across.
[30:20]I hope everybody reads this and really internalizes it
[30:22]because it's super helpful.
[30:24]So we can all just slay our dragons collectively.
[30:27]Yay.
[30:28]So thank you.
[30:29]Thanks for having me.
[30:31]This episode has been sponsored by Book of the Month Club.
[30:34]Book of the Month.com and your code Zibi
[30:36]to get your first book for $5.
[30:38]Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[30:40]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time
[30:43]to read books.
[30:44]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[30:47]for the Sound Editing.
[30:48]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:50]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.
[30:53]Thanks for listening.
[30:54]You can always email me at zibiadzibiowans.com.