Adrienne Brodeur, WILD GAME
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the web-enominated podcast.
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[0:33]In September, they had an early release of Adrienne Broder's Wild Game,
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[1:10]I am so excited to be interviewing Adrienne Broder.
[1:13]I've been waiting so long to talk to her.
[1:14]Her book Wild Game.
[1:16]My mother, her lover, and me, is an amazing memoir, and I just loved it.
[1:21]The film rights have already been sold to turn in entertainment with the director attached,
[1:26]and it's just so good.
[1:28]Anyway, Adrienne Broder was one of the co-founders, along with Francis Ford Coppola
[1:32]of Zoe Trobe All Story, which was a National Magazine award-winning publication.
[1:36]She also worked as a book editor, and has had her own work published in the New York Times'
[1:40]Modern Love column among many other publications.
[1:43]She is currently the executive director of Aspen Words, a literary arts nonprofit program
[1:47]of the Aspen Institute, and she very recently moved from New York City to Cambridge
[1:52]and spends time there, and on Cape Cod with her husband and children.
[1:55]So thanks for coming on Mom's, and I have time to read books.
[1:58]Thank you for having me.
[1:59]I love this podcast.
[2:01]Oh, thanks Adrienne.
[2:02]So can you please tell listeners what your amazing memoir Wild Game is about,
[2:07]and what inspired you to write it?
[2:09]Well, Wild Game tells the story of a particular moment in my life that sort of changed everything
[2:16]and the repercussions from it, and that moment took place on a hot July night in 1980,
[2:23]when I was just 14 years old, and I was asleep, and my mother, Malabar, came into my bedroom,
[2:29]and it was late.
[2:30]It was, you know, after midnight or something, and she said,
[2:32]Renee, wake up, you know, wake up, please.
[2:35]Renee is my nickname, and I remember so distinctly not wanting to be aroused,
[2:41]and then she said Ben Southor kissed me, and of course with that,
[2:46]you know, my eyes popped open because Ben Southor was my stepfather's best friend,
[2:51]and, you know, Ben Southor was married, and, you know, my mother was married of a course,
[2:56]so these four were couple friends, and what I didn't know at that moment was that my mother
[3:01]was about to embark on this epic love affair that would last over a dozen years,
[3:07]but what I did know even in that moment was that it was one of those life-altering happenings,
[3:13]like that, you know, I went to bed as my mother's daughter, and I woke up
[3:17]this her best friend and confident and co-conspirator, and it would really never be the same.
[3:24]Wow. Even just hearing you say that you can just tell this is like an amazing book.
[3:28]You know, I mean, I just know it's like, it's the story, it's that you're obviously a gifted
[3:32]storyteller, whatever story you were telling, and the fact that you got this one to tell,
[3:37]it's fantastic for us as readers at least. So why did you decide this happened when, you know,
[3:44]years and years ago? Why now? Why did you write this book right now?
[3:48]Well, the truth of it is, of course, some part of me have been writing this story my whole
[3:51]life, right? I mean, mostly in my journal. And at different points in my life, I tried to tackle it
[3:58]in different ways, but I would say there was some period in my life where I told this story entirely
[4:04]humorously as, you know, cocktail party pattern or funny essays, and I tried to write it as a romantic
[4:11]comedy at one point. But I think why now is because why when I did start to write it, it was
[4:18]having children and starting a family of my own that made me realize I really needed
[4:25]to reckon with my past. And I love my parents and I love my mother, but I did not want to
[4:30]parent or mother as I had been parent or mother. And, you know, that was really probably the biggest
[4:37]impetus for writing it the way I've written it. And it sort of,
[4:41]aside from the point, but I think it's worth noting that my daughter will be 14 at the time
[4:47]of publication. And that was exactly the age I was when all this started in my own life. So I
[4:53]think, you know, there's probably some unconscious timing and considerations that went on as well.
[4:59]Wow. Coming full circle. Hola. Yes. You can sort that out with your therapist at another time.
[5:05]Now I'm kidding. Right. I'm just kidding. You wrote so beautifully about the morning when
[5:12]this all happened, or I should say in the middle of the night, you were talking about your
[5:15]brother, Peter. And I just want to read this one, quote, how your mother and Peter, and you had
[5:18]formed this triangle, basically, after your parents' divorce. And you write our fundamental family
[5:24]unit since the divorce had always been a triangle that sturdy shape, except on this morning, our
[5:28]geometry was changing before the end of the day, Peter's side would be cut loose. And once untethered
[5:33]from him, my mother and I would shape shift into a single straight line, the most direct conduit
[5:38]for her secret. So tell me about your relationship with Peter and how having such a close relationship
[5:48]with your brother and all three of you together changed when suddenly you were taking him into her
[5:52]confidence and he was left out. Well, you know, I think we all know that secrets are corrosive.
[5:59]And this was definitely a dividing line. And it's not that, you know, everything had been perfect
[6:04]before and suddenly all had changed. But we were this tight little unit, the three of us,
[6:09]especially since my parents had gotten divorced, you know, as my mom and my brother and me,
[6:13]I mean, we still saw my father frequently. But that felt like the family union. And suddenly,
[6:18]when I had this special access to my mother, you know, that's the shape shifting. That became
[6:24]the single line. Of course, you know, what is the truth about any memoir is it's usually just
[6:30]one story. It doesn't tell story. So the fact is, my mother is a fair and the repercussions
[6:37]on my relationship with my brother. I mean, it's sort of a one-off around the affair. I mean,
[6:41]it was dynamic and it went on for years. But this was who my mother was. And she often made
[6:47]us compete for her affection in some way or another. And, you know, so this is one example. But
[6:54]there were many times, you know, she and my brother were closer or this, this constant shifting
[6:59]place. But as a result, of course, my brother and I have, you know, had a very complicated and
[7:04]difficult relationship. And I think we have a tough time trusting each other. And on some level,
[7:10]we've always, you know, we coexist, but we have not been terribly close as adults.
[7:16]Do you think your mom's thought about these things? Like, what do you think now that you're a mom
[7:20]and you have an almost 14-year-old? What do you think she was thinking that night? Like, put
[7:24]yourself in her shoes. Do you think she would have ever imagined that it would have these effects
[7:29]on you and the effects on your relationship with Peter and the whole, like, the ongoing effects
[7:35]of her decision? I absolutely do not think she thought about it. I mean, I just,
[7:41]it sounds terrible to say, but I don't think she was a deeply reflective person. I think she had a
[7:46]need. And she did what she needed to get that need satisfied at that moment. It would be hard for
[7:53]me to guess as to whether or not she regrets it because she certainly knows it caused a lot of
[7:58]strife along the way. But I don't think she's a person who tends to, you know, just reflect deeply
[8:05]on her actions or the results of them. Interesting. Yeah. Do you feel like if you were to go back
[8:12]to that moment? Like, are there any times you think it through and think, what if I had done this?
[8:16]Or what if I had handled it differently? Or do you regret how you handled things? Do you feel like
[8:22]there were no other choices available to you? You know, it's a good question. On some level,
[8:27]we all only get one childhood, right? So it seems perfectly normal to us. I mean, I was not aware
[8:35]of how unusual this was. It was my childhood. It wasn't that I thought everyone
[8:41]embedded their mother in having her fair, certainly. But it was the one that I had. And
[8:45]honestly, it was kind of thrilling at the time. Of course, with the hindsight of, you know,
[8:52]all these years and, you know, a lot of reflection on it, you know, I would never want to repeat
[8:58]those actions and admire myself down in the level of deception, which I think, you know, really
[9:04]caused a lot of self-loathing for me in my life that said, you know, you don't get to go back
[9:10]with your adult hat on. I think if I were, you know, if magically time went back and I were that 14
[9:16]year old in that bet, again, I'm sure I would have just careened down the same path. I'm not sure
[9:21]if I answered your question. No, I was just curious. I don't think there's, I mean, there's,
[9:26]it's hard to go back to any stage in our life about anything and say, would you have done
[9:29]it differently? Because if you would have, then you would have. Like, you didn't. Right, exactly.
[9:34]But I don't know. I feel like I spent time stewing over decisions I made in the past and think,
[9:37]like, well, what if I had, what if this, what if that? So I just was wondering if you were doing
[9:41]that too or not? I mean, absolutely. All the time, although, you know, some part of me, and I don't
[9:47]know if this is just a defensive mechanism, but some part of me thinks, I'm pretty happy where I
[9:53]am in my life right now. I have a lovely husband. I have two wonderful children. I have a career.
[9:57]I enjoy. So some part of me thinks.
[10:00]would I have been in this place?
[10:01]Would this have been my path
[10:03]had not all those other things happened?
[10:06]So, you know, who knows?
[10:08]Who knows?
[10:09]Okay, I'll stop the philosophical
[10:10]taking on reflection here.
[10:13]Do you have any sense as to maybe it's just
[10:16]maybe what you were saying before is just it,
[10:18]that your mother wasn't prone to self-reflection entirely,
[10:20]but do you think there was anything
[10:22]with how she was raised or just the era in general
[10:25]or anything that contributed to the way she handled
[10:29]the whole affair and how she parented you throughout?
[10:32]Like, where do you think it came from?
[10:34]Sure, now that's a really interesting question.
[10:36]And I, you know, I spent a lot of time
[10:39]wondering how Malabar became Malabar.
[10:42]And then, you know, you sort of just to go back
[10:44]to the philosophical, how do any of us become ourselves?
[10:46]And I'd say it's sort of, it's all of, you know,
[10:48]all of the above, it's some part hereditary
[10:51]and some part, you know, nature, nurture all of it.
[10:54]And I will say that through writing this book
[10:57]and researching my mother's life
[10:59]and talking to a lot of people about her,
[11:02]I became more empathetic, which might sound strange,
[11:05]but she had a tremendously lonely childhood
[11:09]and suffered, you know, unimaginable losses
[11:12]before I ever met her or came into her life.
[11:14]So, you know, she was the only child of parents
[11:18]who got divorced, married, I mean, I'm sorry,
[11:20]married divorced, married divorced to each other.
[11:23]Her father lived in another country most of her life.
[11:26]So he was a rare presence.
[11:28]Her mother was alcoholic.
[11:30]So, you know, picture a pretty lonely childhood,
[11:33]then she finds out she has a secret other family,
[11:36]you know, it's sort of predisposition towards incidality
[11:39]did not seem to start with her generation.
[11:41]And then, you know, she meets and marries
[11:43]my father and her first child dies.
[11:46]So, you know, just a lot, a lot of tragedy.
[11:49]And in some ways, I genuinely admire what a survivor
[11:53]she was, like some part of me thinks
[11:55]and still this woman reached for love.
[11:57]You know, we could argue that it's not the best way
[12:00]of going about it certainly,
[12:01]but, you know, that was who she was.
[12:03]And, you know, she had a lot of great characteristics.
[12:07]She was smart and charming and charismatic
[12:10]and, you know, an unbelievable chef.
[12:14]But I think what she didn't have
[12:16]was any kind of proper parental guidance,
[12:18]which arguably I didn't have.
[12:20]And so, she didn't really necessarily know
[12:22]how to use her gifts and flaws wisely, right?
[12:27]I mean, I think one of the things that we emphasize
[12:29]in raising our children today
[12:31]are, you know, teaching them how to be self-aware,
[12:33]you know, you've got this gift,
[12:35]but, you know, you need to work on that
[12:37]or, you know, that type of thing.
[12:39]And yet, you have become like the opposite of this
[12:42]with this as your model.
[12:44]Well, I hope so.
[12:45]I hope that, you know, in the back of your head,
[12:48]you always think, well, she thought she was
[12:50]a pretty terrific mom, I'm sure.
[12:52]Like, you know, I don't, yes.
[12:53]I mean, I have chosen really to dig through my past
[12:57]and try to be as aware as I can possibly be.
[13:00]And yet, I'm sure there are things I'm unaware of
[13:03]in myself.
[13:04]We all are.
[13:05]Two.
[13:06]Well, I'm going to give you the benefit of that.
[13:07]Unbelievable.
[13:08]Thank you.
[13:09]Thank you.
[13:10]Thank you.
[13:10]I have certain things that I'm sure I will never do.
[13:12]And one of them is waking my daughter up
[13:14]in the middle of the night to involve her
[13:16]and, you know, my personal life.
[13:19]So that's off the table.
[13:19]So that's good.
[13:20]That's good news.
[13:21]That's fun.
[13:23]Tell me a little more about Malbar's love of cooking,
[13:25]because I feel like cooking plays such a big role
[13:28]in this book and how just you could smell and taste the food
[13:32]and the way you described it.
[13:33]And particularly, you know, I want to say ocean food,
[13:37]but that's not the right way to say it.
[13:38]But, you know, see life, you know, see sea-side meals
[13:42]and just the grittiness of some of the preparation.
[13:45]And I don't know, talk to me a little more about that.
[13:47]Yeah.
[13:48]Well, my mother was astonishingly game.
[13:51]I mean, she really had a zest for life.
[13:53]She was, you know, willing to, you know,
[13:56]crawl through muddy clam holes, to get clams and all of that.
[13:59]We had great fun as children sort of harvesting
[14:03]and collecting food with her.
[14:05]And she also just truly had a rare gift.
[14:07]I mean, she was one of those people who could, you know,
[14:11]we could be in a restaurant and we could taste
[14:13]some wonderful dish and we might think,
[14:15]oh, yeah, maybe there's some cardamom or something.
[14:18]But she could not only identify, you know,
[14:20]that little wisp of a flavor,
[14:22]but she could just recreate these sauces.
[14:24]And she loved doing it and she loved entertaining.
[14:28]And she was, you know, just tremendously alive in the kitchen.
[14:32]And food has always just been a huge part of my life.
[14:36]And forever shocked when people don't really care
[14:38]that much about it or those people
[14:39]who can, like, forget to eat meals.
[14:41]I mean, never is there a moment
[14:42]when I'm not thinking up the next thing I'm going to eat.
[14:45]But, yeah, it was, you know, it was her gift.
[14:48]And, you know, she enjoyed it.
[14:50]I've spent half this conversation planning my lunch.
[14:52]No, I'm kidding.
[14:53]But I am with you too.
[14:56]I am, I mean, I don't know.
[14:58]I wish I could not be thinking about food.
[15:00]But I also think there's so much enjoyment
[15:02]people get from food, so I don't know.
[15:04]It's a loss if people don't appreciate it.
[15:06]Yeah, and then of course with her,
[15:08]you were talking about sort of the greediness,
[15:09]well, the title of the book, Wild Games,
[15:11]stems of course from this ruse,
[15:13]which was a cookbook that she and her lover were,
[15:17]you know, and the partners.
[15:18]So my stepfather and his wife were going to create.
[15:21]And it was really created with it in mind
[15:24]to have more opportunities for them
[15:27]to get together as a force them.
[15:28]But it was also this way, you know,
[15:31]it was a real cookbook that they were proposing.
[15:33]So he then would arrive with, you know,
[15:35]some wild game, something he had caught or killed.
[15:38]And my mother would transform it.
[15:41]And there were these sort of epic fabulous dinners
[15:44]with way too much booze and, you know,
[15:47]these testing, these test nights,
[15:49]which were also up just a part of my whole childhood.
[15:52]We'd come home.
[15:53]I mean, never did I have, you know,
[15:55]the swans and frozen dinner that I coveted.
[15:58]It was always, you know, some odd and curious
[16:02]and sophisticated dish that she was testing for.
[16:05]Either a cookbook she was writing
[16:06]or a food column that she had or something like that.
[16:09]Well, that's a treat too.
[16:10]I mean,
[16:11]I have well, not necessarily when you're 11.
[16:14]Yeah, but you ate it.
[16:16]I mean, my kids would not eat any of that.
[16:17]I don't know.
[16:18]So maybe there was just no choice.
[16:20]I don't know.
[16:21]I mean, it's funny because I have a picky eater
[16:23]and a very adventurous eater.
[16:25]And I constantly wonder like how my son would have survived
[16:28]with my mother, but I just, I don't know.
[16:31]There's nothing I didn't eat.
[16:33]There's nothing I didn't try, you know,
[16:35]from rodents to innards to exotic others.
[16:39]It was just the food that was presented.
[16:42]Wow.
[16:43]So let's go back to writing this book.
[16:45]How long did it take for you to write it?
[16:47]You mentioned it was,
[16:48]you were writing it in your head most of your life
[16:50]and journals,
[16:50]but when you actually were sitting down and crafting it
[16:53]in this current iteration of this memoir,
[16:56]how long did this particular stage take?
[16:58]And where did you like to write like paint a picture for me
[17:01]of like where you'd like to sit and where you do it
[17:04]and how long and all that could take?
[17:06]So, you know, so if you kind of don't count
[17:09]the lifetime of processing the material,
[17:12]I mean, really it took about two years.
[17:15]And I got a toehold during a three week long residency,
[17:20]which was an absolute gift to me.
[17:23]And I remember leaving that residency thinking,
[17:26]well, you know, when and if I ever get
[17:28]an up to three weeks of solid writing time in my life,
[17:31]I'll get more done.
[17:33]Because of course with two children
[17:35]and a husband and a job I love,
[17:36]I couldn't imagine when that would ever happen again,
[17:39]but I heard the advice that I should try
[17:41]to write a little bit every day
[17:43]that what I started to do was wake up early.
[17:45]So I started sort of by waking up,
[17:47]I don't know a half an hour before my family at 6.30
[17:51]and then I started waking up at six
[17:53]and then 5.30 and then five and I won't go on
[17:56]because yes, it is insane,
[17:58]but I loved that sacred morning time
[18:02]before anyone could bother me,
[18:05]before my to-do list kicked in
[18:07]and I just wrote and wrote in the mornings
[18:10]and really had the pages stacked up quickly
[18:14]and I had a draft in probably less than a year.
[18:18]And then I gave that draft to my agents
[18:21]and I had lots of other people read it
[18:23]and helped me along the way,
[18:24]but I gave a pretty polished draft to my agent
[18:26]who had some wonderful ideas
[18:28]and we decided to try to put it together
[18:31]as a proposal.
[18:32]So I did a lot of polishing of the first five chapters
[18:36]and then sort of wrote in that line for the rest.
[18:38]She submitted it as a proposal,
[18:41]I think it was October of 2017
[18:45]and it's pulled quickly
[18:46]and I provided it for about nine months after that
[18:49]and handed it in really about exactly a year ago right now.
[18:53]Wow.
[18:54]And how has your experience been
[18:55]since you released it?
[18:56]Have you like, has your family already?
[18:58]Like, how did they respond to it?
[19:00]Well, let's start with that.
[19:01]Have your family respond to it.
[19:02]I did my family respond to it.
[19:05]Well, my family, my immediate family is very, very small
[19:09]but my extended family is, you know,
[19:12]in quotes, modern and huge
[19:15]because of course, you know,
[19:16]each of my parents married twice
[19:18]after their divorce from one another.
[19:20]So in my lifetime, I've had four step parents
[19:23]and many step siblings.
[19:24]So, you know, there've been a lot of reactions
[19:26]and that's far, I'll say that everyone's been
[19:30]incredibly supportive.
[19:32]I mean, my mother and Ben Sparrow
[19:35]was not exactly new news
[19:37]by the time people were hearing about the book
[19:39]but most of them didn't know the level of my involvement.
[19:42]So that was kind of startling
[19:44]and I've made me nervous to sort of think
[19:47]what they would think about that.
[19:48]You know, I mean, I had step siblings, you know,
[19:52]from my first step father
[19:53]who was the one who was cuckled in
[19:54]and I had step siblings from my second step father,
[19:57]you know, so there was a lot, a lot going on.
[19:59]So.
[20:00]Of course in the end it was my mother who I was most worried about because I've always had you know
[20:05]I've had this fraught relationship with her obviously, but we've also always been very close and I was worried
[20:11]You know, but I probably let her know about you know it's probably four years ago that I let her know that I was going to do this
[20:17]I was really going to talk all this book at some point in time. I was going to write it
[20:21]Straight forward and memoir. It wasn't going to be fiction. It was you know
[20:24]This was what I was going to do and I will say that she was supportive
[20:27]I mean, I'm sure she was anxious and I'm sure she didn't necessarily love the idea
[20:32]But she did not say oh good Lord not that don't do that and then during the actual
[20:39]Writing of the book. Um, she became very ill and she's developed severe dementia
[20:45]So I'm I'm quite sure she's no longer able to read any kind of extended narrative
[20:52]I mean, I know she holds the newspaper and looks at headlines and stuff
[20:55]But I don't imagine she could read a book, but that said
[20:59]During the process of writing it. I read much of it a lot out to her and she
[21:05]It might sound funny, but she seemed to take great pleasure in
[21:10]In hearing about her back in the day when she was this powerful woman and fabulous in
[21:17]The kitchen and seductive with men because of course she's in an incredibly powerless stage of life right now
[21:25]So I will never know the end of that question. I will never know what my mother thinks of the book or if she would approve or not
[21:32]But I'm at peace with it. Oh
[21:35]Well at least I mean well, that's gonna come out wrong
[21:37]I was gonna say well at least you know
[21:39]You could talk to her about it while she's still here despite dementia. I mean
[21:43]I don't know
[21:43]I mean I people probably have different views on if you're writing a memoir about a parent is it better to
[21:49]Sort of wait until they've passed away or if they should read it themselves or I don't know
[21:54]It's sort of an interesting timing question. Yeah, I think the thing is I don't know that we ever get
[22:00]A choice in that or you know best lay plans on all of that right exactly. Yeah
[22:05]So what is next for you? You have I'm sure tons of promotion for the book
[22:09]Are you thinking I'm writing another book?
[22:11]I know you have a full-time job at the Aspen Institute to tell me about what life is looking like for you in the near future
[22:18]Life is looking quite chaotic for me
[22:21]As I mentioned like I have newly moved from New York City to Cambridge, Massachusetts
[22:26]Which I think is all a beautiful thing, but it is you know
[22:30]I'm I'm in the throes of a lot of boxes and unpacking and getting my bearings in a new home
[22:35]I also have this
[22:37]You know
[22:38]Incredible book tour ahead of me which I feel very lucky about but slightly overwhelmed by and you know
[22:46]I do have a job. I just love as the executive director of Aspen word
[22:51]So it's going to be busy the future. It's going to be very very busy
[22:56]But I hope after that to definitely have some quiet time
[22:59]I mean, I think there's a finite of the year will be quite something
[23:03]and then I do hope to start on
[23:05]an textbook and I am just in the very beginning phases of conceiving it so a conceiving of it
[23:13]So I um, I don't really have attention anything to tell you
[23:16]But I do know that it will it will be fiction. I will not be making a foray into another memoir anytime soon
[23:23]Just out of curiosity when you know you're going into such a busy crazy time
[23:26]Do you have any like strategies for how you cope with all that stress?
[23:31]Like is there anything you really do to sort of help yourself manage?
[23:35]I'm always looking for suggestions
[23:37]Oh my god, if you find one, please call me immediately
[23:41]No, I wish I had some preternatural then or could tell you that I
[23:46]Run five miles and then meditate
[23:48]But no, I don't have time for any of it and I yeah, I feel overwhelmed
[23:51]But I'm you know, I'm just plugging away and trying to regain a sense of equilibrium
[23:57]Because you will have it at different periods of your life in greater or greater or lesser degrees
[24:02]And I recognize that I you know, certainly before I start traveling
[24:06]I need to find my center again and it made a bigger way and I'm getting there
[24:09]All right, well if I find the secret sauce, I will let you know too
[24:14]Please do
[24:18]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[24:20]You know, I know that everyone works so very differently
[24:25]So I'm always loathe to give advice like everyone gave me the advice of write a sloppy copy
[24:29]And I'm like, I can't do that. I tend to just sort of write them chapter and get it mostly mostly right
[24:36]But I'd say if there is one thing
[24:38]That really changed my writing life. This is just for me
[24:42]But it was to
[24:44]Be in touch with the material every single day as opposed to this like I'll do a block in January
[24:49]And then hopefully if I get free time in June all right again
[24:53]By by working on
[24:55]The material every day even if it was just reading it or thinking about it
[24:59]It just it lodged itself in my subconscious in a way that kept it going
[25:05]all the time so almost every conversation or
[25:08]You know moment or book I read or something it would all sort of be cycled through this
[25:13]particular lens or paradigm or where I was thinking of it and I thought that was
[25:18]Incredibly helpful and even if it's just 15 minutes
[25:23]I think I think if you're engaged with the project you love you should stay in touch with that
[25:28]That's great advice
[25:30]Well, thank you so much for coming on the show
[25:32]Thank you so much for writing this amazing memoir that was so good and I have not stopped thinking about it
[25:38]I'm sure many people will feel as they read it as well
[25:41]So I just wanted to say thank you as a reader and a fan
[25:46]As well as well. Thank you so much for having me today. It's really been great
[25:49]And I hope to meet you in person sometime soon terrific. Thanks. All right. Thanks so much. Bye. Bye
[25:55]Thanks again for my new partnership with book of the month club book of the month calm
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[26:15]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music
[26:24]Thanks for listening. You can always email me at zibi at zibi Owens.com