Matt Hall, ODDS ON
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the web-enominated podcast Moms Don't Have Time
[0:13]to Read Books. This episode has been sponsored by Lauren Gabriellesson, which is a women's
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[0:46]So anyway, Lauren Gabriellesson.com. I'm very excited to be with Matt Hall today. Matt is the author of
[0:52]Odd Zahn, the making of an evidence-based investor. He is the co-founder and president of Hill
[0:57]Investment Group, and currently lives in St. Louis, Missouri with his wife and daughter. He is also the
[1:02]host of the podcast Take the Long Deal. So welcome to Momstone, have time to read books. Thanks so
[1:08]much for coming on the show. I'm glad to be on this great show, Zibi. So, Matt, you wrote this book
[1:14]called Odd Zahn, the making of an evidence-based investor. And, you know, we met on vacation with
[1:19]our kids, and you were like, well, I wrote a book, and I had no idea it was so amazing. I read
[1:24]this whole book, start to finish. It's called Making of an Evidence-Based Investor in the subtitle,
[1:29]which sounds like very businessy, but this is really a personal story, this book that you wrote,
[1:34]and I just loved it. So I'm really excited to be talking to you about it.
[1:37]No, thank you. Well, I worked really hard on the book, and, you know, writing what for me is a very
[1:45]personal story, writing a memoir is not easy. And it's also, at times, I heard one of your other
[1:52]podcast guests at one point say, that it doesn't feel lonely if you're creating a work of fiction,
[2:02]because you're sort of getting to know this, like, village of people that you're creating.
[2:07]For me, going back through my own experience, you have these moments where you go,
[2:11]is this going to be relevant? Is this going to connect with people? And I loved the process,
[2:16]so, and writing the book has been transformational. And I really wanted to do a personal narrative
[2:24]that was aimed at sharing the truths or the important truths I have found about modern investing,
[2:31]but I had experience watching my mentor write many books that didn't really connect. And if you
[2:38]go to any big bookstore and you look in the business section, it's littered with books that are
[2:44]all sort of doing the same thing. And I really wanted to do something different. So,
[2:49]your book talks a lot about your personal journey and how you started off life. You dropped out
[2:56]of law school. You never thought you'd drop out of anything. You were almost ashamed of that
[3:00]decision trying to find out what to do next. And you got lots of advice from your dad, which I
[3:05]realized you scattered sort of throughout the book. He originally pointed to you in the right
[3:08]direction by saying, I know you're passionate about two things. You love financial markets and
[3:12]investments and you're really into golf. We know that you're not going to win the British
[3:16]Open. So, what about finding a job in finance? Just like so classic. I love parents. So,
[3:21]just tell it like it is. And that he says surround yourself with smart people and learn something
[3:25]valuable. And he gave a lot more advice. So, tell me about how your relationship with your dad
[3:30]has sort of affected your trajectory and work. And do you find yourself now giving advice
[3:36]to your daughter similar to this type of advice? Yeah, I love your question. So,
[3:41]first I would say both my mom and dad have been hugely important. They're both educators.
[3:48]And you know, our dinner time conversations were not about business. They were generally about
[3:53]students and school experiences they were having. And I'm more like my mom. She's sort of
[4:01]tough, but fair, very outgoing, innovative. And we're very similar. But we both admire and love my
[4:08]dad. He's patient and understanding and unconditionally supportive. And I would say in my parenting
[4:17]of our own daughter, I try to be some fraction of the magic mixture of the two of them. I feel
[4:25]very lucky. But my dad's advice and his wisdom has had a huge impact on me. But as I think about
[4:33]like the most important things he said to me or the best advisor guidance I have felt from him,
[4:40]it's been less about the words and more about he has this look he gives me. And he's always
[4:46]given me that is again a combination of I have high expectations of you and you can do it.
[4:54]And I can vividly remember like as a kid playing catch with him in the yard. And we would always
[4:59]try to end our session on a good one. One that he would throw a little bit farther. And he
[5:04]always had that same look even then like I'm going to make this difficult and you can handle it.
[5:10]And I have remarkably positive self-talk. I think because both of my parents were always telling me
[5:20]we expect a lot, but you can handle it. And even when I couldn't their mantra sort of didn't change,
[5:26]it always felt that way. So that my relationship with them and the guidance they've given me
[5:32]has always I think been about somehow building my self-confidence. And I'm hugely grateful.
[5:41]But the advice of like, hey, you know, you need to rethink your plan for yourself. I just
[5:47]interviewed Danny Meyer, the Shake Shack creator and restaurant tour who has a St. Louis background
[5:54]for my own podcast. Take the long view. And he was about to become a lawyer himself. And his
[6:00]uncle said to him, you're going to be dead forever. And you're going to be alive for about a hot
[6:06]minute. You don't need to waste your time becoming a lawyer. You love food. So go work in food.
[6:12]There's such a finite amount of time we have. So don't waste it away in law. You're not passionate
[6:19]you're miserable even thinking about taking your LSAT. So I think I had the same kind of moment
[6:25]or the same kind of experience with my dad. Maybe a little less, you know, sort of tough than that.
[6:29]But yeah, I'm hugely grateful that I made that change. Wow. I bet you have a lot of clients who would
[6:34]say they're particularly grateful for that change as well. Oh, you know, thank you. I would say,
[6:40]you know, it's such an interesting, the parenting piece of this is I think about my own daughter
[6:45]we take walks together. And I find myself doing the exact same thing that I just told you I found in
[6:52]my parents is like, if all you have I heard done some show one time, a rabbi said there are two
[6:58]hands of love. There's affection and discipline. If you have too much of one and not enough at
[7:02]another, you'll have sort of an imbalance. And I'm definitely more on the discipline side and my
[7:07]wife leases much more on the affectionate side. But I find myself doing exactly what I just told
[7:12]you. My parents did for me, which is always saying to Harper, I expect a lot. But I think you've
[7:16]got it. And I just I love that I love that that gift was there. And actually, that's probably part
[7:22]of the reason I was able to do this book is because it felt scary and vulnerable. And I didn't
[7:28]I hadn't done it before, but I was committed to not doing what everyone else sort of told me to do.
[7:35]I met with many agents who told me to do something very different. And I met with publishers who
[7:40]told me to do something very different. And when the pros tell you what you're doing is dumb,
[7:47]you you know, rightly sort of second guess yourself. But I I was I couldn't find another
[7:53]investment or money book that tried to bury the boring inside of a personal narrative. And I
[7:59]was just committed to doing that. Barry, the boring. That's funny. Good little subtitle there.
[8:05]Just one thing on your daughter, Harper, just because I love her so much. She is like so amazing. And I
[8:13]just have to get that out there. So whatever you're doing as a parent, I have to like bottle up and
[8:17]copy not that I don't love my own kids, but you know, my kids love your daughter. And she's just so
[8:22]awesome. So anyway, just have to say that. So you wrote really beautifully and openly about your
[8:29]battle with leukemia in this book and the whole lead up to it, the diagnosis, not knowing what was
[8:34]going on with you, the treatment. And you shared all the things you learned and especially what
[8:40]you learned from the way the doctors actually handled your treatment has now informed your
[8:46]approach to professional services. So I was hoping you could talk a little more about how that
[8:51]experience has informed not just your personal life and sort of priorities living in the moment
[8:56]and all that, but also your professional life, which could really be the rest of this podcast. So
[9:00]go ahead. Well, so much to unpack here. First, I would just say when I was working on this section,
[9:10]I remember being teary-eyed in my office because it was I feel so incredibly grateful. You know,
[9:20]for anyone who's listening, if you've ever sort of wondered like is something wrong with me or
[9:25]why am I feeling this way? I had been feeling like something was not right for some time. I had
[9:30]lost a lot of weight. I was having problem with my vision. I was sick all the time. And so the
[9:36]uncertainty of not knowing what's what's wrong with me was creating a massive amount of anxiety.
[9:43]And I was only 32 years old. And so I had just left a job that I love to start my own
[9:51]business with another partner. And I didn't handle the stress of that very well in hindsight.
[10:00]And I remember as I was recounting this story
[10:03]and trying to capture it and document it,
[10:05]I just had this overwhelming feeling of gratitude.
[10:08]And I went through a phase where I wrote thank you notes
[10:11]to anybody who was involved in either the research
[10:13]that helped me or the practitioners who helped me.
[10:16]But as to the specific question about how the doctors
[10:19]who helped me change me and change the way I work,
[10:23]it comes down to, and this may sound a little bit corny,
[10:27]but it's how I really feel.
[10:29]And a psychotherapist friend of mine said this expression to me.
[10:33]I was describing how when my eye doctor helped me figure out
[10:37]what was wrong, she opened her door and said
[10:41]to her assistant, cancel the rest of my appointments
[10:44]and she shut the door.
[10:46]And I remember instantly not feeling as scared.
[10:51]And the reason I didn't feel as scared
[10:53]is because I felt well held.
[10:55]And that expression of like someone's got you.
[11:00]You know, it's gonna be okay.
[11:02]The uncertainty and the feeling
[11:03]of like sort of floundering around in this uncertain,
[11:07]scary place was over.
[11:10]This person has you.
[11:12]And I felt that both when my eye doctor helped me figure it out.
[11:16]And when my oncologist helped me walk down the path
[11:21]to a healthier future.
[11:23]And so I had never really felt that uncertain or scared before.
[11:26]And I had certainly never felt that well held or cared
[11:30]for before by a professional person
[11:33]or someone outside of my family.
[11:34]So it sounds so weird to say this, but I felt lighter.
[11:39]I felt like liberated when that happened.
[11:41]I was still scared of course, but confident
[11:43]that these people were my advocates.
[11:46]They were with me.
[11:47]And yes, they understood the science behind what was wrong with me.
[11:52]But they didn't want to burden me
[11:53]with all the unnecessary details
[11:55]or teach me everything they knew.
[11:57]They wanted to sort of hold my hand and help me.
[12:01]And that has informed so much of then my life
[12:07]post that experience.
[12:09]And honestly, Zibi, I really struggled with whether
[12:12]to include this section in the book or not.
[12:15]Because I thought they're gonna be people who can't relate
[12:18]or they don't like this section or it feels too vulnerable
[12:21]to scary for me.
[12:22]But I'm so glad I did.
[12:24]And I know this is cliche to say,
[12:26]but there is strength and power in the vulnerable.
[12:28]And so many people who have either had their own
[12:33]sort of health experiences or traumatic life events
[12:36]have then come to me after reading the book.
[12:39]And they don't want to talk about investment philosophy.
[12:41]They want to talk about how they had a similar experience
[12:45]or how they felt that same sort of feeling of being well held
[12:48]by someone else in their lives.
[12:50]So I'm really glad I put it in there,
[12:51]but it was tough to write and tough to sort of process,
[12:55]even though there is some important inspiration for me in it.
[12:58]Well, it was, I mean, I hate to say,
[13:00]the worst part of your life was the best part of your book,
[13:02]but I think it was that approach and the openness
[13:06]and just your willingness to share the whole thing.
[13:09]And you almost have this lighthearted tone
[13:11]that you take with all of the book, which is, you know,
[13:14]hey, I'm gonna tell you a story.
[13:15]And this is what happened to me.
[13:16]And, you know, here's what I learned and I don't know.
[13:19]I thought it was fantastic.
[13:20]So thank you for sharing it.
[13:22]And you actually kind of tie that in.
[13:24]Your doctor at the time had told you,
[13:26]take this medicine, this is what you do.
[13:27]Now go live your life.
[13:29]And you took that advice and just went off and did it.
[13:31]And then the end of the book,
[13:32]you wrote, you're having like a moment of self-reflection.
[13:35]You say, when I roll into my driveway,
[13:37]I sometimes take a moment to sit with my feelings
[13:39]about all of this.
[13:40]We live in a complicated world.
[13:41]We don't know what will happen to any of us,
[13:43]even in the short run.
[13:44]Everything is uncertain, but we're not helpless.
[13:46]I remind myself to stay focused on what I can control
[13:49]and accepting of what I can't.
[13:51]Then I get out of the car, cross the yard,
[13:53]and I go inside and get on with my life.
[13:56]Oh, I get like, I literally get goosebumps,
[13:58]like reading that again.
[13:59]It was such a beautiful ending,
[14:01]not to give the ending away,
[14:02]but, you know, I'm not really giving anything away.
[14:04]But talk to me about even writing this,
[14:06]where you like sitting there crying,
[14:08]writing this ending, like you just tied it all together so well.
[14:10]And it's like the doctor's advice and surviving this
[14:13]and then starting this whole business that you've done
[14:16]all of it, and now you're like, there you are, just living.
[14:19]Yeah, so going back to the part about how my doctor really,
[14:24]I, you know, the internet, if you have a health issue,
[14:27]the internet can be a dangerous place to explore
[14:31]what could be wrong with you.
[14:33]And I remember as I was getting the treatment,
[14:35]I went back through all these chat rooms and support groups
[14:38]and all these places where people were talking about
[14:39]the kind of leukemia I thought I had,
[14:41]and I came to the first appointment.
[14:43]I had all these questions and I handed the sheet to my doctor
[14:47]and he looked at it and he had a very nice look on his face.
[14:50]He didn't look sort of condescending or dismissive,
[14:52]but he looked at me and he said, Matt,
[14:55]I can answer these questions,
[14:58]but you're going to take 400 milligrams
[15:00]and you're going to get on with your life.
[15:02]And again, well, a part of me was like,
[15:04]I kind of would like the question.
[15:06]Yeah, but again, it felt like liberating
[15:11]to have someone say, I have already filtered all of this for you.
[15:15]I know what matters.
[15:16]These are the things that matter.
[15:19]We'll get to some of this,
[15:20]but right now do these two things.
[15:22]And so as I wrapped up the book and as I was thinking about,
[15:27]how can I sort of mark and have a ritual of sorts
[15:32]of like remembering what matters,
[15:35]what's important, what to be grateful for?
[15:37]I mean, in the way that this connects to my business life
[15:40]is I think if you use the academic research
[15:44]and what science has about successful investing,
[15:46]you can be liberated from asking questions
[15:48]that are all pretty noisy.
[15:50]They don't really mean much.
[15:52]They're not the essence.
[15:54]And it doesn't mean that like when people ask us questions
[15:57]that we always say, we're not going to answer them,
[16:00]it just means we want to help people part.
[16:02]We're also busy part of what you're doing
[16:04]is helping people filter for what the ideal book is to read.
[16:08]What's worth their time?
[16:10]And I think as we're all sort of cluttered
[16:12]with information and craving at some level of simplicity,
[16:16]I think that's part of the beauty
[16:18]of what I was trying to get at at the end is
[16:21]you can still do very well and make smart investment decisions
[16:26]and actually outperform and be freed up
[16:30]to grab more of your time back.
[16:32]My doctor was saying to me,
[16:34]you can stop thinking about these worrisome questions.
[16:38]Do what is essential and then live your life.
[16:41]And so I didn't want to,
[16:43]even when I, you know, the risk is when you get healthy
[16:46]is that you sort of forget how valuable
[16:51]the second chance is.
[16:53]Like to me, I've said this to a lot of friends,
[16:56]there's something really beautiful and a near miss.
[16:58]You know, for me, this was a rough experiment
[17:02]but it was a near miss, like I'm okay.
[17:04]And I don't want to lose that gratitude or appreciation
[17:08]and you know, you hyper focus after something traumatic happens
[17:12]on the finite amount of your time.
[17:14]You get really intentional about time,
[17:16]almost restless in the beginning.
[17:17]And I had to try to figure out a way to live with ease
[17:21]but also remember and be grateful
[17:23]that all of what I'm doing is important
[17:27]and I can be intentional about how I use time.
[17:30]So the ending of the book was really for me about saying,
[17:33]I have to daily remind myself
[17:37]of how fortunate I am.
[17:38]And that's what that part was about.
[17:41]And I think the quote in the book that you said
[17:43]about this whole thing is sometimes you can help people
[17:45]make better decisions by not answering their questions.
[17:49]I feel like I try that with my kids sometimes.
[17:51]Like I'm not gonna answer these 67,000 questions about the day
[17:54]but here we go, here's what we're doing.
[17:56]Yeah.
[17:57]Let's see, general approach.
[17:58]Well, speaking of time and the, you know,
[18:01]finite amount of time we all have,
[18:02]how did you fit in writing this book
[18:04]with the rest of your life and running your business
[18:06]and your family and tennis and all the rest of the stuff
[18:08]you love today?
[18:09]Well, so people, as I mentioned to you,
[18:12]I had read all these investment books
[18:14]and I was like kind of telling friends occasionally,
[18:17]I think I might write my own book
[18:19]and people would instantly say, yeah, you want to do that.
[18:22]I think you could put something good together.
[18:25]And I had met with several other authors and said,
[18:28]I'm thinking about writing a book.
[18:29]What's your process?
[18:30]Who's your agent?
[18:31]How do you do it?
[18:32]And I was kind of tinkering around.
[18:34]I have a good friend who we were at breakfast one time
[18:36]and he was like, no one's going to do what you want to do, Matt.
[18:39]You have to do it.
[18:40]So either do it or stop talking about it.
[18:42]And I've always responded really well
[18:44]to either being underestimated
[18:46]or being challenged or pushed.
[18:48]And that was sort of the gentle nudge I needed to get going.
[18:51]So I got really serious about time blocking
[18:54]and created sacred times where you just could not get to me
[18:59]unless someone was dying or in trouble
[19:02]or the house was burning down.
[19:04]So I had three-hour chunks on generally Tuesdays,
[19:07]Thursdays, and Saturdays.
[19:09]And I did, my whole process was different
[19:12]from what the advice I was given from some people.
[19:14]There's a write a book proposal, get an agent,
[19:16]and so on and so forth.
[19:17]Every agent I talked to told me to write a prescriptive,
[19:21]the sort of book that winds up
[19:23]in the nonfiction business book ghetto.
[19:25]I mean, I see all these books.
[19:27]I've read them all.
[19:28]And I don't want to read them.
[19:29]I don't like them.
[19:30]I don't think many humans wanted to read them.
[19:32]So I just wanted to do something different,
[19:34]but it took me 18 months to put this together,
[19:38]even with that sort of dedicated time.
[19:40]And then I hired a great editing team
[19:44]who really helped me, I think,
[19:46]take what I was trying to do to the next level.
[19:49]Like one of the compliments I often get is that it's,
[19:51]people read it in one or two settings.
[19:53]That's what I said to you.
[19:54]Yeah, it's true.
[19:55]I couldn't put it down.
[19:56]And I have to admit that one of the things
[19:58]that I wasn't capable of doing
[19:59]that I really need.
[20:00]help with was creating these hooks at the end of each chapter to allow people to keep going.
[20:04]I wanted this to be understandable and relatable and palatable for real people, not practitioners
[20:10]in my industry, which is who typically reads most of the technical books that people who work
[20:14]in my space or want to work in my space, but not the real humans. So yeah, my process,
[20:20]I felt like it was really hard because I had never done it before. And I felt a lot of uncertainty
[20:25]because I didn't know if anyone was going to care about this. By the way, for me, it's been
[20:28]transformational. I mean, from North Dakota to the Netherlands, I've talked about people all
[20:33]over the world. And I still to this day get emails or nice notes from people who have read the book,
[20:39]and it's really been transformational for me. So in terms of aspiring authors, I would, you know,
[20:44]I'm biased because I'm on the other side of a lot of the struggle, but it's been without question,
[20:49]one of the best decisions I ever made. But it was a long, slow, like so many good things that are
[20:54]worthwhile. It was slow. It was hard, but very rewarding. And so I have enjoyed it. And now I feel
[21:02]like because I did the process, I should write another book at some point. So we'll see when that
[21:06]comes about. But yeah, my process, my process was lonely at times, fun at others. And at the end,
[21:13]I had a friend of mine who said, are you proud of what you did? I said, yes. And they said,
[21:16]then it doesn't matter what anyone else's reaction is to it. If you feel good about it, that's
[21:21]what matters. And I feel very proud of it. And it's still, you know, I worked on it five years
[21:26]ago. It came out three years ago. And it's still creating great conversations to this day.
[21:31]That's amazing. I love that. Tell me a little more about take the long view of your podcast.
[21:37]And by the way, you have like the best podcasting voice ever. I'm like, you're there,
[21:41]I'm looking at you and Skype with like your whole setup and your microphone and like,
[21:44]your voice is like, I could just like hang out and listen to your voice all day. So
[21:48]Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, you know, my mission is sort of like, how can I change the way
[21:56]people think and feel about investing? And I was like, well, the book has been good. But the
[22:01]book is a commitment. You know, I like, I did my own audio book. And it took three and a half,
[22:06]it takes three and a half hours, I think, to listen to it. But it took me about 10 hours to tape
[22:11]that thing because I had never done that before. So the podcast for me has been a way to make
[22:19]the same sort of message easier for people to grab onto. So they're doing the dishes. You know
[22:25]this from your experience with this. It's like, I'm in the car. I'm doing, you know, meal prep.
[22:30]I'm doing some dishes. I'm exercising. It's so easy to grab hold of a conversation between two
[22:38]people. And again, how can I bury the boring or disguise the vegetables into other conversations?
[22:46]Part of why my firm's mantra is take the long view is further in order for the sort of math
[22:52]to play itself out. You have to wait. You have to be patient. I hate this analogy, but it works in
[22:56]some ways. If you think about it, a casino, the math is figured out. Everything else is a distraction
[23:01]to prey on human weakness. But the math is figured out. The winner is the owner of the
[23:06]And so in many ways, I think the math is figured out, but it's not as exciting for people.
[23:12]So I want to put some of the contrarian thinking inside of interesting stories and conversations.
[23:17]And I love doing the podcast, just like what we're doing today. It's so fun to have a conversation
[23:23]between two people and the listeners can eavesdrop in on that conversation. So I really
[23:27]enjoy it. It's been fun. And it's afforded me an opportunity to sort of make the message in my mission
[23:33]even more attainable. So do you have any parting advice? I know you've already sprinkled this
[23:37]throughout our conversation, but any parting advice to aspiring authors.
[23:42]I say do it work on it in a way that I think that advice I mentioned earlier, where it's like,
[23:50]if you're proud of it, if it means something to you, it's hard sometimes not to listen to the
[23:56]other voices. As I said about listening to professionals or people who had done it before,
[24:00]I didn't have one person who is saying the way you want to do this is going to be great.
[24:08]Everyone who was a professional kept saying the way you want to do this won't work. People want
[24:14]prescriptions. They want you to tell them by this fund, do this magic trick,
[24:20]take this kind of approach with taxes and this kind of approach with estate planning and
[24:24]everything will work out for you. And I couldn't imagine doing that for complete strangers,
[24:28]what I know nothing about them. You can't sort of diagnose them when you don't know people.
[24:32]And I didn't want to dispense this sort of generic advice that again, I could find another
[24:36]book. So to me, it was like, I didn't audit of how many people have written a memoir in the
[24:41]investing space that's been well received or that's just out there. And I could only find two
[24:45]examples. And so I thought, you know, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it my way.
[24:50]And so I would say, listen to that voice. You know at some level what you want to accomplish
[24:55]and do the thing that is unique. That's been super helpful for me. Another interesting thing
[25:00]I would say I got advice from an author and marketing guru named Ryan Holliday who helped me
[25:07]think about how to get endorsements for the book. And I found the endorsements to be hugely
[25:11]valuable. I don't think endorsements sell books, but I think who people see on there if they trust
[25:16]them. It can be a tipping point for actually the person picking up the book and taking it home and
[25:21]diving into it. If they don't, I'm not famous. I don't have a huge following. So if people
[25:25]see someone they know or recognize and trust, even if it's from an unrelated field, it can be
[25:31]hugely helpful. So that advice from Ryan Holliday told me, don't just get a bunch of boring old
[25:36]white guys from the investment world. Go get some other folks from other industries. And that was
[25:39]great advice. Excellent. That is great advice. And I don't think anyone said that before. So thank you.
[25:45]Well Matt, thank you so much for coming on my podcast and for writing this beautiful
[25:49]book. And I'm glad that you didn't listen to anyone because what's come out of it is
[25:54]a really special story and you're a great storyteller. So I'm really glad I got to read it and
[25:59]understand more about investing in a different way and certainly learn more about your life. So
[26:05]thank you for letting me in and sharing all that. Oh, Zibi, I'm honored by all your nice comments and
[26:11]honor to be on this great podcast and keep doing what you're doing by introducing people to
[26:17]the books and stories that are worth their time, especially moms who don't have time.
[26:24]I will. I'll try. All right, thank you. Thank you, Zibi. Bye bye. Thanks again to my sponsor,
[26:32]Lauren Gabrielson, the women's war brand that creates elevated essentials for the modern women's
[26:37]wardrobe. Lauren Gabrielson dot com. Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[26:42]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time to read books. Thanks so much to Steve
[26:47]and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for
[26:52]providing this fantastic intro and now trim music. Thanks for listening. You could always email me
[26:56]at Zibi at Zibi Owens dot com.