Carla Naumburg, HOW TO STOP LOSING YOUR SH*T WITH YOUR KIDS
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the web-enominated podcast,
[0:12]Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:49]I'm here today with Carla Numberg, PhD, who's a writer, speaker, and clinical social worker,
[0:54]and the author of How to Stop Losing Your Shit with Your Kids, a practical guide to becoming a
[0:58]calmer, happier parent. She's also the author of two other mindfulness books. She's contributed to the
[1:03]New York Times, the Washington Post, half-post, and mindful magazine. She currently lives with
[1:07]her husband and two daughters outside of Boston. Welcome Carla. Thanks so much for coming on
[1:11]Momstone. I have time to read books. I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
[1:16]So I have to tell you my daughter, who's fine. Now she's six now, loves the title of your book.
[1:21]I think she thinks it's like the funniest thing. And I told her this morning, I was interviewing
[1:25]you, and she's like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. She may sneak in at some point, but you have a lot
[1:30]of fans. Perhaps I lose my shit with my kids too often, and they think it's funny, but
[1:36]just wanted you to know. My friends was reading this book and her daughter, who I think is in
[1:40]second grade founded, and was like, when is she going to write a book called How to Stop Losing Your
[1:45]Shit with Your Parents? That's the one I need. Oh, that's funny. I like that. That is cute. So tell
[1:52]me how to stop losing your shit with your kids is about and what inspired you to write it?
[1:57]So, you know, it's basically what it says it is. It's a book exploring how we parents can be
[2:04]more patient and present and not exploded our children quite so often. And it also talks about
[2:11]what to do after the inevitable explosion happens because we're all going to lose it sometimes.
[2:16]I mean, I wrote the freaking book and I still lose it with my kids sometimes. And that's okay.
[2:21]Like that doesn't make you a bad parent. It's not a problem to be solved. It's just part of
[2:24]reality with kids. But if you feel like your temper is becoming sort of the predominant
[2:31]sort of way that you're interacting with your children or you're exploding on a daily basis or
[2:37]just more often than you're comfortable with this book might be helpful for you. And the way I
[2:41]came about it, I don't know. I guess the topic of this book has basically been my personal and
[2:47]professional life's work for the past 11 years. I mean, I have two daughters. My older daughter is
[2:52]almost 11 and God helped me if I call her 10 years old. And my younger daughter is nine. And
[2:59]parenting is hard, man. It's really hard. And before I had the kids, I really wasn't a yellow
[3:05]except maybe at my sister in high school, but that totally doesn't count. And I found myself
[3:10]exploding in my kids. And I was like, ooh, this is not awesome. And this was when they were little.
[3:15]They were so little and I was yelling at them. And you'd think that as a clinical social worker,
[3:20]I would totally know how to handle this. And yet there was one night that I refer to in the book.
[3:25]When it got so bad, I think my girls were like two and three years old that I sat down and
[3:30]literally started googling. How do I stop yelling at my kids? I mean, I have a PhD in clinical
[3:35]social work and I couldn't figure it out. And to that night sort of set me on this journey that
[3:40]took a few years, but I finally came up with a few ideas and practices and strategies that have been
[3:44]really helpful. And that's where the book came from. That's amazing. I love it. And it's such a
[3:50]a helpful book. You start with six truths that will help you keep your shit together instead of
[3:55]losing it. So I just wanted to run through those and ask you about a few of them. So your six truths
[4:00]are one, parenting is hard. Two, every parent loses their shit sometimes. Three, contrary to what
[4:06]you may think, you probably haven't broken your children. Four, even so, losing your shit sucks.
[4:13]It's not a matter of willpower. And six, you can learn how to lose your shit a whole lot less often.
[4:18]So the one I want to talk to you about first is number five, it's not a matter of willpower. Because
[4:23]I feel like, you know, I have four kids and sometimes I try hard not to lose it, but sometimes you
[4:29]just do. And I feel like, oh, only I had tried harder. So tell me how it's not only about willpower
[4:34]and there's more to it than that. Oh, yeah. Look, willpower, I met a mom once who was like,
[4:41]you know, I just decided to stop yelling at my kids and I stopped. And I was like, what, what?
[4:48]Are we speaking the same language? Like, are you a human? If I turn you around and open like the
[4:52]little door on your back while I push buttons and there's like little wires in back. Because I don't
[4:55]understand how that works. Because if I could have done that, I would have done that. That's what
[5:00]I call a could of what a strategy. Look, willpower is kind of like a muscle. And when we use it too much
[5:09]or even at all over time, it gets tired. And by the end of the day, it basically doesn't work,
[5:13]which is why we stand in front of the fridge trying to decide what to eat. We end up like,
[5:17]you know, eating chips for dinner. Because it even takes willpower to make a decision like,
[5:22]should I eat this or that? Should I get out of bed or should I hit, you know, the snooze alarm?
[5:26]All these little things we do during the day, am I going to fight with my kid about the shoes
[5:30]or let him wear flip-flops to school? Every single little thing, you know, takes willpower. And by
[5:36]the time we get to the end of our day, we're exhausted. We have none left. And that's often when
[5:41]parents are losing it with their kids. The other thing is that our willpower is a function of our
[5:45]prefrontal cortex, which is the part of our brain that's sort of right behind our forehead. And I
[5:50]think of it as the adulting part of our brain. So that's the part of the brain that helps us make
[5:54]good decisions and moderate our emotions and plan ahead and stay calm even when it's hard. And when
[6:02]we are triggered, which is something I talk a lot about in the book in my super clinical definitions,
[6:07]very scientific here, as it be, is my super clinical definition of being triggered is
[6:12]anything that makes you more likely to lose it with your kids, right? So when we are triggered,
[6:17]we're more likely to lose it with our kids. And when we are triggered, it essentially sends us
[6:21]into what I call the fight flight freeze or freak out response, which lights up our limbic system,
[6:27]which is sort of like the toddler part of our brain, you know, we're born with it. It's there to
[6:32]keep us alive. It puts us into survival mode. And when our limbic system is online, our prefrontal
[6:38]cortex goes offline. So when we are triggered by any number of a million things that can trigger us
[6:45]whether it's chronic pain or a stressful interaction with a colleague at work or we haven't slept
[6:51]in like a decade or, you know, we have to pay a bill and we're not sure where we're going to find
[6:55]the money to pay that or, you know, a difficult phone call from a family member or, you know, you
[7:00]stubbed your toe. It doesn't matter. When we are triggered, our limbic system is more likely to
[7:05]come online. Our prefrontal cortex goes offline and willpower. See ya. So we really want to set up
[7:11]these strategies and systems and habits that are going to make all that less likely to happen
[7:16]because when we focus on willpower, that's kind of a set up for failure in a lot of cases.
[7:21]By the way, I love how on Instagram you're always like, I just got back from whatever situation
[7:26]full of triggers. Like you're always, no, I love it. It's so awesome because you're just so
[7:31]open about it, right? Like trigger city, this is what's going on. So it's like, yeah, some situations
[7:37]are just, you know, their mind fields for your own sort of sanity. I mean, I think that's one of
[7:43]the things I was expecting the least as a parent was that my own sort of emotional regulation
[7:49]would have to be so fine-tuned to deal with the constant inputs, really, of all these changing
[7:54]things, right? I mean, it's a lot. And you know, it's not that way for everyone. My husband,
[7:59]thank the Lord for the sanity of our home, is not this way. And what I've learned over the years
[8:03]is that I am what some researchers call a highly sensitive person. And this is sensitive not only
[8:10]in terms of like what's going on with this other person, like kind of relationally in tune to people,
[8:14]but loud noises are triggers for me. People touching me is a trigger for me and anybody who's
[8:20]spent five minutes with a toddler knows and baby, they touch you all the time. And as much as you
[8:24]love that touch, it's a trigger. Strong smells are a trigger. I don't like most foods, not a fan of
[8:30]flavor over here, which my poor foodie has been dies. I think a little bit every time I'm like,
[8:35]oh, can we just have something really like don't don't spice the chicken? I'm the same way.
[8:39]Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, big emotions. I feel all the feelings, somebody I think described
[8:45]it as having your nervous system kind of on the outside of your skin. I feel all the feelings
[8:49]all the time. And a lot of this exists in my body. So what I talk about in the book is that triggers
[8:55]make your buttons big and bright and super sensitive and all lit up. And is anybody who's ever been
[9:00]an elevator with a little kid knows, they see a button and they push it and then they push you
[9:04]again. And then, you know, we'll be standing on the sidewalk and the girls are like pushing the
[9:07]crosswalk button 27 times until I freak out and explode at them. But I've had to learn what
[9:13]I need to do to get my buttons dim again. So they're not so pushable. And since for me moving my
[9:19]body like exercise every day has become basically a non-negotiable and worth the point now where
[9:24]the girls will look at me be like, mommy, you seem kind of grumpy. Have you exercised today and
[9:29]I kind of want to kick them in the teeth. But I don't I don't them and they're right. So yeah,
[9:35]trigger town USA over here. That's interesting. I also have like passed the test for
[9:39]highly sensitive person read the book. I relate. Well, which is why we both love books so much
[9:46]because books are like not triggers totally sensitive people. Totally. I kind of wish I had been
[9:51]a therapist as well. But so tell me about you you came over these two acronyms in your book
[9:58]Oh gosh. Fives that fart and
[10:00]burp, fart, feelings, automatic, reactive and toxic, and burp, which I forgot to write
[10:04]what that stood for. So tell me about these two and how we're supposed to use these to help ourselves.
[10:09]Yeah, look, first, I want to explain why I chose these words. A big part of this book,
[10:13]I didn't include all this profanity and potty talk in the book just for fun, although it was pretty
[10:18]fun and that helped. But I want to constantly remind parents that this parenting thing is far too
[10:24]serious to be taken seriously. Like, we have to laugh at ourselves. We have to remember how ridiculous
[10:30]I mean, I remember when my daughters were really little before they were potty trained and I was
[10:34]thinking to myself, you know, there are people on this planet other than like doctors and nurses and
[10:39]health care workers who don't regularly come in contact with other people's bodily fluids. They just
[10:44]don't. And yet that is literally my life all the time. And I just, I think we have to be able to kind of
[10:50]laugh about it and stay silly and remember that it's all so crazy and that's the beauty of it
[10:56]and it's also the challenge of it. So the acronym FART is one I use to kind of describe some of
[11:02]the features of a parental meltdown, let's say. Because look, if your kid is about to jump into
[11:08]like ongoing traffic and you reach out and grab him really hard and pull him on the street and maybe
[11:12]snap at them, I wouldn't actually call that like an inappropriate explosion. Like you were responding
[11:18]appropriately to the moment, to the intensity of the moment, keeping your kid safe.
[11:23]So let's talk about what, you know, what are the features of the explosions that I'm worried about?
[11:27]Well, F is for feelings. Like obviously there are a lot of emotions involved
[11:31]when we explode in our kids. Now the thing is we may or may not be aware that we're having those
[11:36]emotions. So there could be anger, guilt, powerlessness, shame, anxiety, frustration, confusion,
[11:44]all of these or some of these and they may or may not have anything to do with our children,
[11:48]right? It could be something that happened at work or maybe another mom at pickup gave us some
[11:53]weird look or sent to snarky email and we're like, what the hell and we're still kind of processing
[11:58]that, but there's emotions somewhere happening, right? For us. And one of the things that I think
[12:03]many of us think is that we can somehow control our feelings, that we can like choose to be happy
[12:08]or choose to feel better. And I just, I call BS on that. You can't control your feelings
[12:13]and no feeling is ever wrong. That's what we talk about in our family. The behaviors, right?
[12:18]Those may be problematic, but every feeling is okay. So F is for feelings. All right.
[12:23]A is for automatic. And this is just by way of pointing out that for most people, it's not like
[12:27]you walk in the door from work after a rough day and think, huh, today's a good day to lose my
[12:31]shit with my kids. I think I'm going to go ahead and do that. Like we don't do that. It's, you know,
[12:35]once we are triggered, once our fight, fight, freeze, freak out response kicks in. It's a pretty
[12:40]automatic behavior that happens and it can happen very quickly, which is why it really is a practice.
[12:46]It's something we have to work on over and over again to get better at catching ourselves
[12:50]and stopping that, that response, which is something I talk about later in the book.
[12:54]R is for reactive. And all I'm saying here is that something has triggered this, right?
[12:59]We are reacting to something. And many of you may say, actually, I'm reacting to my kids.
[13:04]My kids are annoying. They're being obnoxious. They're nagging me. They're having meltdowns in
[13:08]public. They're mouthing off. They're being uncooperative, whatever it is. And I say, yeah,
[13:13]that's probably true because that's what kids do. But the problem is if we say, I'm only losing it
[13:18]because of my kid's poor behavior, then essentially what we're saying is, until my kid behaves better,
[13:24]I'm going to keep losing it. And we're letting our children's behavior control our own.
[13:29]And what every parent says to their kids is, you can't control anybody else's behavior. You can
[13:34]only control your own. Well, that's true for us too. So we need to figure out what we're reacting to,
[13:40]what is triggering us so that we can start to figure out a better way to respond. Okay. So that's
[13:44]our, and then is this idea that our parental explosions are toxic. And what I mean by that is that
[13:51]they are, it's a disproportionate response to what's happening. And it's scary and confusing for
[13:57]the child. So if you grab your kid because they're about to run in the street, there's a pretty
[14:02]clear narrative about what happened there. Child was making an unsafe decision. Parent reacted
[14:07]strongly to save their life, right? But let's say your kid spills the milk. And for you,
[14:15]when you were a kid spilled milk caused a very strong reaction to your parents, they screamed,
[14:19]they yelled they got really mad. And so you find yourself exploding over spilled milk,
[14:24]that's confusing and scary and pretty unpredictable and out of proportion. So your kid is going to
[14:29]be like, what is the story here? And they're not consciously thinking this because little kids don't,
[14:34]but they get very confused. And they start to think that things are unpredictable and that small
[14:38]mistakes can cause major problems. So does that make sense for fart? Totally. It was a lot.
[14:43]No, it totally makes sense. And I love in particular what you just said about feelings and
[14:47]how there are no wrong feelings. And I feel like my kids, no matter how I try to mask them,
[14:52]if I'm upset about something, like it's like they, they pick up on it right away. Like I try to
[14:57]be like, no, I'm going to smile and pretend that this bad thing is not going on. No, it's like
[15:02]they can see right through me. It's like, it's freaky. Kids know us. They know us so well. And it
[15:08]really is an evolutionary thing for them. They literally depend on us for survival. And so the way
[15:14]they survive is they know, you know, are every little thing. I mean, I raise an eyebrow the wrong
[15:19]way and my older daughter will be like, okay, what's wrong? And I'm like, oh, I don't want to talk
[15:23]about this. But they really do know. And their, their fingers are perfectly, perfectly match for
[15:29]our buttons, right? And they find buttons. We didn't even know we had and they push, push, push.
[15:33]But yes. And the thing is, if we try to, I think we do our children a disservice when we try to
[15:39]hide our, our, our experiences from them because number one, it's confusing and it feels distancing
[15:45]when you're like, I know something is wrong with you, but you're not telling me. And the message
[15:52]we're inadvertently sending our children is you always have to put on a happy face. And Zibi,
[15:57]I think for you and me and for our, our mom listeners out there, this is a woman thing.
[16:01]And I'm not saying it's a woman. It's our fault thing. I'm saying it's a societal expectation
[16:06]of women that we always look happy, right? Smile more. Don't they always say that in the media,
[16:10]it's the politicians. You got to smile more. I get very cranky about that. So I think it's okay.
[16:16]And obviously you want to say things to your children. Oh, oh, wait, wait, wait, backing up thought.
[16:20]I think the other reason why we do our kids a disservice when we try to hide feelings from them
[16:27]is not only are we teaching them that they should always be happy. And if they're not happy,
[16:31]they should hide it or try to hide it. But kids are by nature very egocentric. They think the world
[16:38]revolves around them and they think that they are sort of the cause of everything. And it doesn't
[16:42]mean their little psychopaths. It's just developmentally very typical, very normal. And so if
[16:47]a parent consistently seems unhappy and the child doesn't have an accurate narrative to explain why
[16:55]they'll go with, I did something wrong. Mom or dad has mad at me. I must have done something wrong.
[17:01]And then that creates anxiety for them. Then they get triggered. They may be more likely to lose it.
[17:06]It's very confusing. So with my kids, you know, you want to frame your explanation
[17:12]in sort of a developmentally appropriate way. So you wouldn't say to like a four-year-old,
[17:16]I don't know, your grandmother was being a bitch to me and it really stressed me.
[17:19]I can't complain, but you might say, yeah, mommy's having a hard day. Like, you know, I was really
[17:25]busy today and I got to have a lot of work and I'm pretty tired or whatever it may be. You don't
[17:30]want to like, you know, but now I'll say to my daughters, I had a really stressful day at work.
[17:34]I had, you know, a phone call that didn't go well or I don't know. Because they're older now
[17:39]and they can understand. And so when it's appropriate, I'll try to give them a little more insight
[17:43]into what's going on. I love that. Excellent. Wait, so then what's burp?
[17:47]Oh, we got it out of our burps. I gotta tell you, I'm super proud of this acronym because I
[17:52]think it just really worked. Burps stands for button reduction practices. So one of, you know, one of
[17:59]the ideas in the book is that when we are triggered, our buttons get big and bright and super
[18:04]pushable. And so burps are these basic practices. Guys, this is really not rocket science here
[18:11]that help those buttons get smaller, dimmer, less obvious, and less pushable so that when our kids
[18:17]come along with their little fingers out, there's nothing to poke, right? There's nothing to push.
[18:21]So I've got like 11 practices. And they're all pretty straight bored. It's things like getting
[18:26]enough sleep at night, stretching your body. So going for a walk, getting some exercise, doing some
[18:31]stretches, whatever it is, slowing down, right? We are much more triggered when we're rushing.
[18:37]And I have found that a lot of parents, and I don't know if this resonates with you,
[18:40]but I've gotten in the habit of rushing even when I don't really need to rush through transitions.
[18:45]I'll be like, we got to go. We got to go. We got to go. And then I'm like, oh, we actually have
[18:49]several more minutes. We're fine. Part of that is I hate being late. But I put all these false deadlines
[18:54]and then I make us early. And they're like, why did you rush us so much? But yeah. But you've
[18:59]never been late. I know. I just, I need a point of your person who hates being late. So slowing down
[19:06]is a big one. Having a lot of support, support is a major burp button reduction practice when you
[19:11]have the people around you, whether it's your like best friends that you can text all the snarky
[19:16]videos to at the end of the night, or it's just the other parent that you're like, hey,
[19:19]I'm going to be five minutes late to school. Can you grab my kid and hang out? So anyways,
[19:23]I've got 11 of these different practices that can really help us kind of calm down, feel less
[19:30]stress, less tense, less kind of triggered. And they're very helpful. Awesome. So what do you do
[19:36]if you do lose your shit with your kids? So first of all, the first and most important step
[19:43]is to get calm. You have got to calm yourself down first because until you are calm, if you try
[19:51]to re-engage with your children, you're going to end up exploding at them again. And here's
[19:55]what this looks like. You're still triggered. And you decide that
[20:00]It's time to go re-engage with your kids.
[20:02]And so you go over to them and you sort of do this
[20:04]kind of half-assed apology, which is like,
[20:06]I'm really sorry I lost it with you,
[20:08]but I asked you 27 times not to throw that ball in the house
[20:11]and then you ended up breaking my favorite base.
[20:13]And that's actually not apology.
[20:15]That's just sort of losing it again
[20:16]and you're throwing the word sorry in there.
[20:18]And the other problem with trying to reconnect
[20:20]with your kids before you're calm
[20:22]is that if you go over there
[20:24]and you're expecting your child to apologize,
[20:27]or you're expecting your child to say something
[20:29]nice to you and they don't do it,
[20:31]you're much more likely to explode at them
[20:33]because you're still triggered.
[20:35]So the first thing, not negotiable
[20:37]that you gotta do after you blow up at your kids
[20:39]is you need to get calm.
[20:40]And two of my favorite strategies for that
[20:42]are getting curious about your own experience
[20:45]or having a lot of compassion for yourself
[20:47]because this parenting thing is really hard.
[20:49]And I give a lot of strategies for that
[20:51]because what I find is what most parents do
[20:54]after they blow up is they go into this like shame spiral
[20:57]and they feel terrible.
[20:58]They're like, I'm a terrible parent.
[21:00]I can't believe I lost it with my kids again.
[21:02]I'm never gonna get this right.
[21:03]They're gonna be a mess.
[21:04]I better start funding the therapy jar now, you know.
[21:07]I used to go in the kitchen and just search for chocolate.
[21:09]That's what I would do.
[21:10]Just feel awful, shove the chocolate in my face.
[21:12]It didn't really help.
[21:13]Taste of good, didn't help.
[21:14]And so what I really encourage parents to do now
[21:17]is to find a way to calm themselves down
[21:19]with a whole lot of compassion.
[21:21]Curiosity can help if you can save yourself
[21:23]what just happened and my tired and my hungry
[21:25]and my triggered is my child triggered.
[21:27]What do I need right now?
[21:28]You can actually get some actionable information
[21:30]about what's happening for you.
[21:32]And then you go apologize and reconnect to your child.
[21:36]And let me be very clear.
[21:37]I'm a big fan of apologizing.
[21:39]It's a thing in our family.
[21:41]And sometimes after the apology,
[21:43]there is another conversation about limit setting.
[21:46]I am sorry for my behavior.
[21:48]I shouldn't have behaved that way.
[21:49]You know, we love the eye messages,
[21:51]taking responsibility for our actions.
[21:52]And the other side of this coin kiddo
[21:54]that we need to talk about is that, you know,
[21:56]I was very clear with my expectations
[21:57]about your cell phone use and you didn't follow them.
[22:00]So we're gonna have that conversation now.
[22:02]So just because you apologize to a child doesn't mean
[22:05]you can't then, you know, set limits with them.
[22:07]Interesting.
[22:08]So you have this one tip from actor Jack Black
[22:12]where he says never give a happy child ice cream,
[22:16]which I just love that that was so funny.
[22:18]Are there any tips like that that you've gleaned
[22:20]from other people or having all your experience
[22:22]in your practice that you've really internalized?
[22:25]Yes, I would say there are two.
[22:28]First of all, yeah, the happy child ice cream
[22:30]has become like a mantra for my husband and I,
[22:32]because we'll see the girls.
[22:33]They're happy they're playing,
[22:34]whether we're out of the house or in the house.
[22:36]And one of us will have this inclination
[22:38]to go over and play with them or offer them something
[22:41]or be like, let's do this.
[22:42]Let's increase their fun.
[22:43]And then the other parent will look at my partner
[22:46]or he'll look at me and be like, ice cream, ice cream.
[22:48]Like that's our little code for, leave them alone.
[22:51]Don't get involved, do not make eye contact.
[22:53]Slowly away, don't try to add more joy on
[22:57]if they're already happy,
[22:58]because inevitably you will lead to a meltdown.
[22:59]So the other two tidbits of wisdom I would say
[23:02]that have become really powerful for me is
[23:05]the first one was actually from my grandmother
[23:07]who was a mother of seven and many, many grandkids.
[23:10]And I called her up many years ago just a mess
[23:12]because I couldn't teach my girls how to swim.
[23:15]Every time I tried to bring them into the pool with me,
[23:17]they would cling to me like these terrified monkeys
[23:20]and we weren't getting anywhere.
[23:21]And she said to me, you know, Carla,
[23:24]it's not your job to teach your kids everything.
[23:26]You can't teach your kids everything.
[23:28]Go find someone else to teach them to swim.
[23:31]And that was like sort of this mind-blowing moment
[23:33]because I thought as the mother and the default parent
[23:37]because I was only working part time.
[23:38]So I was the one doing the drop-ups
[23:39]and the pickups and the whole on yards
[23:41]that it was literally my job to teach my kids everything.
[23:44]And I was like, when she said that,
[23:46]I really literally felt this burden lift for my shoulders
[23:49]like, oh, it's not my job.
[23:52]And guess what?
[23:54]We paid for someone else to teach them how to swim.
[23:56]And it was amazing.
[23:57]And they were not nearly as clingy and anxious
[23:59]with this other person.
[24:00]So it was fantastic.
[24:00]And you also say in the book,
[24:01]it's not your job to make your kids happy either.
[24:04]Like that's also not your full responsibility.
[24:07]Look, we are not responsible for our children's emotions.
[24:11]We're not responsible for anybody else's emotions.
[24:15]I mean, come on, we're barely responsible for our own, right?
[24:18]Something we can control then.
[24:19]So look, we live in a culture of,
[24:22]with a glorifies happiness, right?
[24:25]We should all be happy.
[24:26]Happiness is the goal.
[24:27]And if we're not happy,
[24:28]it's because we're not working hard enough
[24:29]or doing the right things to be happy.
[24:32]And what I would say to parents is, again,
[24:34]I call baloney on that one
[24:36]because like really unhappy things happen in life,
[24:39]whether it's a scary diagnosis or a car accident
[24:42]or again, a bill we can't pay or a divorce
[24:46]or what, like, there are things
[24:48]that are really legitimately good reasons to be unhappy.
[24:51]And I think it's okay if we feel unhappy
[24:53]and I want my kids to learn that.
[24:55]So, you know, of course I want my children
[24:57]to be happy when they grow up,
[24:59]but more important than that,
[25:01]I want them to know that they can keep functioning
[25:03]and know what to do when they are unhappy
[25:05]or when they're having difficult emotions.
[25:07]So yeah, it's not my job to keep my kids happy.
[25:09]It is my job to keep them safe.
[25:11]It is my job to teach them what they know.
[25:12]It's my job to be present with them
[25:14]as often as I can without losing it
[25:17]because too much and I lose it,
[25:19]but their emotional state is not my responsibility.
[25:22]I hope that makes sense.
[25:23]This is all just such amazing advice.
[25:26]Like an advice I wish I had heard a few years ago,
[25:29]I have my older kids are 12 already
[25:30]and obviously, as you can see,
[25:32]I have my little daughter here who's six
[25:34]and then I'm almost five-year-old.
[25:35]If I had read your book,
[25:37]I feel like when my kids were just starting out,
[25:39]when I really felt I didn't have a handle on it,
[25:41]I would have been a far better parent,
[25:43]I think, but anyway, whatever, we'll go from here.
[25:46]But also just to be clear,
[25:48]it's so easy for me to say all these things on a podcast, right?
[25:51]My kids are away at school, they're not here.
[25:53]I just went for exercise, I'm thinking pretty clearly.
[25:56]I've got my trusty coffee.
[25:58]It's easy to say all these things.
[26:00]In the moment, they don't come naturally.
[26:02]When I'm with my daughters and they're sad,
[26:05]my first inclination is I want to make the bad feelings go away.
[26:08]Oh, quite does, you know?
[26:10]And then I have to catch myself.
[26:12]I have to work hard and say no,
[26:14]it's okay for my daughter to feel sad.
[26:16]My job here is to not make her happy.
[26:17]My job is to sit with her and let her know it's okay to cry.
[26:21]But that is not my gut mommy response, right?
[26:23]And so if there are listeners out there
[26:25]who are like really struggling with this,
[26:27]yet come over, we'll hang out
[26:28]because I'm struggling with it too.
[26:29]You know, it's an, when I say it's a practice,
[26:33]I literally mean it's a thing we start out with,
[26:35]being really bad at and the more we practice it,
[26:37]we get better, but this is the work of a lifetime.
[26:40]And how did you fit in writing this book
[26:43]in the midst of everything else?
[26:44]When did you do it?
[26:45]Like where do you like to write?
[26:46]Do you write at home?
[26:47]Did you go out to write?
[26:48]How did the process look for you?
[26:49]Oh, it was a mess, it was a messy, messy process
[26:53]as all my writing is.
[26:54]Look, I would love to say that I'm one of those writers
[26:57]who's like, I get my kids off to school,
[26:59]then I make my coffee and I sit down at my desk
[27:01]and I write from nine and 10 to 12
[27:03]and then I have a healthy salad for lunch
[27:04]and then like that is, no, you know,
[27:06]I fit it in where I could
[27:08]and I try to write most days a week.
[27:11]I do write at my desk at home.
[27:13]I have a fantasy about having a little writing office
[27:16]somewhere, but it turns out nobody wants to give you
[27:17]that for free.
[27:18]You need to be ready.
[27:19]I'm rude, really, really, really, yeah.
[27:22]But the thing that kept me writing is that I had
[27:25]an editor and deadlines.
[27:27]So that was the thing that really helped me keep this
[27:29]a priority because otherwise it's a little harder
[27:32]to stay focused because I have kids who get sick
[27:36]and I have random events at school
[27:38]that pop out in the middle of the day.
[27:39]And they're like, we really need you here
[27:41]for this Native American fair
[27:44]that we're gonna announce today and can you bring,
[27:47]you know, 27 pounds of maize tomorrow,
[27:50]or whatever, I'm like, that is not a thing you can buy
[27:53]and I don't know where to buy it.
[27:55]I love my mom.
[27:57]No, hey, listeners who know where my kids go to school,
[28:00]I love the school, I love the teachers.
[28:01]But I just wanna be realistic that it was, you know,
[28:04]it was a lot to fit in.
[28:06]I had to work hard to fit it in.
[28:07]And there were some days when I would say to my husband,
[28:09]like, you know, he'd walk in the door from work
[28:11]and I'd be like, I'm out.
[28:12]I gotta go to the library somewhere and do work.
[28:14]So he was incredibly supportive.
[28:16]And the teachers at my daughter's school made it possible
[28:19]for me to write this book because they kept them all day
[28:21]and taught them things.
[28:22]And while my kids were at school, I worked,
[28:24]I've always had a part-time job in addition to the writing.
[28:27]And so it's busy, but when you're doing what you love,
[28:30]it feels a little bit easier.
[28:32]And what advice would you have to aspiring authors
[28:35]who are trying to do this as well?
[28:36]I guess my first piece of advice is,
[28:38]if you're in it for the money, find something else.
[28:41]It's very, very hard to make money writing,
[28:42]like, real money that people can live on.
[28:45]But if you're a person like me
[28:47]who has always written and can't imagine doing anything else,
[28:49]and this is the only way to scratch that itch,
[28:51]then you gotta do it.
[28:53]But you should probably have a job at the same time
[28:55]unless you have a winning lottery ticket.
[28:58]And the other thing I would say is read a lot
[29:01]in the genre you wanna write in.
[29:02]If you wanna write a parenting book,
[29:03]you gotta read the parenting books.
[29:05]You need to know what's out there.
[29:06]You need to know what's getting published.
[29:08]You need to know what the trends are.
[29:11]If you look in the New York Times bestseller list
[29:15]for sort of how to miscellaneous,
[29:16]there's a whole lot of books in there
[29:17]with swear words in the title.
[29:19]And you bet your Tushie that that inspired me
[29:21]a little bit in this book, right?
[29:23]So you gotta follow the trends.
[29:24]And the other thing I have to say is right with the voice
[29:27]that is who you are and what feels most authentic.
[29:30]So my first two books did not have any profanity.
[29:32]They had a little bit of humor,
[29:33]but they were much more sort of straight-laced parenting books.
[29:36]And they're good books, but this book, this is me.
[29:38]You read this book and then you come meet me
[29:40]and you know the kind of conversation we're gonna have.
[29:43]And that doesn't work for everyone, right?
[29:45]So I was terrified to write this book
[29:47]because I was talking to a friend
[29:49]and I was like, there are people who are gonna hate it.
[29:51]And I expected to be like, no,
[29:52]everybody's gonna love your book.
[29:54]And instead she said, yeah, there are people
[29:56]who are gonna hate this book.
[29:57]There are people who are not gonna wanna read this book.
[29:59]And...
[30:00]Those aren't your peeps and that has to be okay.
[30:02]There are other parenting books for them,
[30:04]but there are people who have been looking for this book
[30:06]and haven't found it yet and they need it.
[30:08]And as soon as my friend said to me,
[30:10]yes, there are people who are gonna hate your book
[30:12]and it's gonna be okay, like I was so liberated.
[30:15]So no, no matter what you write,
[30:18]somebody's not gonna like it, right?
[30:20]And that has to be okay.
[30:21]And the thing that will let you continue
[30:25]in that writing process is knowing
[30:26]that you are writing what's true for you.
[30:29]Something that is authentic and real
[30:30]that you really believe in
[30:32]and that's what's gonna keep you motivated
[30:34]even knowing that it's a challenging process.
[30:36]And by the way, everyone I've mentioned your book too
[30:39]is like, I have to get that book right away.
[30:41]So my peeps appear to be your peeps.
[30:45]So, well, thank you so much for coming on the show
[30:50]and for writing your great book and for all this advice
[30:52]and honestly just being so real and showing all of us,
[30:56]like this is what it's like and it's okay.
[30:59]And we don't have to be perfect.
[31:00]And I think the more that we all as a mom community
[31:03]sort of adopt that and feel better,
[31:05]the better off we'll be and the better our kids will be.
[31:08]So, oh, thank you.
[31:09]And thank you for all the work you do
[31:11]to support authors and writers and books
[31:13]and support moms who think they don't have time to read.
[31:17]Yeah, you're welcome.
[31:19]All right, well, it was great to meet you.
[31:21]And thank you so much.
[31:23]Thanks again to my sponsor, Lauren Gabrielson,
[31:25]the Women's War brand that creates elevated essentials
[31:28]for the modern women's wardrobe, Lauren Gabrielson.com.
[31:32]Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[31:35]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time
[31:38]to read books.
[31:39]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[31:41]for the Sound Editing.
[31:43]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[31:44]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[31:47]Thanks for listening.
[31:48]You could always email me at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.