Lisa Heffernan and Mary Dell Harrington, GROWN & FLOWN
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[0:49]I'm so excited to be here today with Lisa Heffernan and Mary Dell Harrington, who are the co-authors
[0:54]of Grown and Flown. How to support your teen stay close as a family and raise independent adults.
[0:59]They are the co-creators of Grown and Flown, the number one community site for parents with teens
[1:03]and college students, reaching millions of parents every month. Mary Dell previously worked in
[1:08]TV and media while Lisa had a career on Wall Street and in politics and writing. Lisa is a
[1:12]New York Times best-selling author of three books, including Goldman Sachs, the Culture of Success.
[1:17]They live with their husbands and families in the New York City area. So welcome to Lisa and
[1:21]Mary Dell. Thanks so much for coming on mom's. Don't have time to read books. Thank you.
[1:25]Thank you. We really appreciate it. Not only did I really enjoy your book, but I have to say,
[1:30]I don't usually follow Facebook groups and the Grown and Flown Facebook group is like the only
[1:36]one that I read all the time and get like emotional about and I'm attached to. So I don't know.
[1:41]Just wanted to throw that out there. So I feel like I already had this like natural sort of
[1:45]gratitude towards you for creating that sort of space for everybody. It's been a big surprise.
[1:51]I think a lot of parents have a lot of questions and they don't know people in their real life
[1:55]to ask those questions. And the group is functioning in a way that fills a role that isn't in
[2:00]their real life. Many times I'm sure you see this. People are asking questions and I think they
[2:05]don't know anyone in their real life who has that situation. But the group's got about maybe 125,000
[2:10]parents. And when you go into group that large, other people will have had whatever experience
[2:16]you're having and really bring their insight and experience to your to your problem and your question.
[2:21]I feel like I tell everybody who now has a child at that age. I'm like, are you part of this group?
[2:25]Do you know about that stuff? Thank you. Thank you. Well, we have had people tell us on more than
[2:29]one occasion that the group is larger than the town that they live in and much more diverse.
[2:34]So it gives people an opportunity to really have some creative parenting ideas that they may not
[2:39]have in their own social circle or their own school circle. And for people who aren't on them,
[2:43]and I shouldn't have probably jumped into all this, the Grown and Flown is intended for people
[2:47]whose kids are teens or aging out or just flying the nest in some form or another. And you can
[2:52]just join on Facebook, Grown and Flown. Yes, exactly. Is that everybody to make sure that they
[2:56]are indeed a parent of a high school or a college student because we really want the conversation
[3:01]to be around those topics? So we're careful. I snuck in. You're close. You're close. But I think
[3:10]some oldest. I think there's some things like I'm divorced and remarried. And I think there's things
[3:16]with the kids on weekends when I don't have them that is the same type of feeling of parents who
[3:20]have kids who leave that people may be my age or have kids my age don't necessarily feel as much
[3:25]as people in the group. Yeah. Could be. That's good. So anyway, maybe an offshoot. Maybe you make
[3:30]an exception for. Well, we were broad-minded about it. And we also realized that some people whose
[3:36]oldest are in ninth grade have met children or children. Likewise, people whose youngest is going
[3:41]off to college have kids who are possibly married and then they have already been grandparent. So
[3:46]it's so much flexible. So let's back up now that I've jumped all the way in here.
[3:50]Tell listeners about what Grown and Flown the book is about and what inspired you to write it.
[3:55]And then I want to hear about sort of the inception of the whole package. The whole package.
[4:01]So we wrote Grown and Flown how to support your teens. Stay close as a family and raise
[4:05]independent adults. And that's a mouthful. For the same reason that we started the whole package,
[4:10]which is these are some of the most challenging. Some of the most exciting. Some of the most heartbreaking
[4:16]and certainly some of the most consequential years of parenting. These are when kids are setting
[4:20]the direction for their lives. We still play a pretty big role in some of that decision-making.
[4:25]If nothing else, just being a sounding board for our kids. And there was so little out there.
[4:29]There are so many amazing websites and amazing books for parents of little kids.
[4:35]And, you know, the expression, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems.
[4:39]The big problems weren't being addressed adequately. So we thought we would start a website.
[4:43]Essentially, that's where we started. At the beginning, it was the two of us talking about,
[4:47]I have three kids. This is Lisa. Mary Gill has two. We was kind of us talking about our five kids.
[4:52]And now we have over 500 riders on the website. Many of them are riding from the position of their
[4:57]professional expertise. And they may also be parents of teens, but they're really riding from the
[5:01]the fact that there are psychologists or they're a physician or a teacher. So we gathered a lot
[5:06]of this expertise and we put it in a book with some of the best parent riders we know.
[5:10]Wow. And, you know, we know from research, parents of teens feel the most insecure in their roles.
[5:15]I mean, this is when parents have the least amount of confidence when they have middle schoolers.
[5:20]And it really doesn't start to pick up until the kids are grown. So there's this vacuum of
[5:24]information. And at the same time, as Lisa said, families are dealing with some of the most complex
[5:29]questions as teens gain more independence and grapple with the direction of their life.
[5:33]So simultaneously, you're no longer going into the pediatrician with your with your child. You're
[5:39]not having parent teacher conferences in the same way that you do when your kids are little.
[5:43]And you're really not supposed to be the ones talking to the teacher on behalf of your student or
[5:48]the coach on behalf of your students. So all of a sudden, you know, the scaffolding in your life
[5:52]kind of melts away. And once you know, in New York City, so it may not be as relevant as
[5:57]parents in the suburbs with once their kids start driving, they really are out of the loop.
[6:01]So it can be a kind of a lonely and stressful time. So we hope that we could add a little bit to
[6:06]that conversation. A lot of my kids driving keeps me up at night. Don't think about it. Everybody
[6:13]on the roads is there. There was a part in the book where you talk about overparenting. And I
[6:18]thought that was interesting for you to address because writing a book about this age group,
[6:22]some might say, you know, there's been all this pushback against being too involved with your kids and
[6:26]this whole scandal for college admissions and everything. You know, some people obviously still
[6:30]call to wake them up for class. And you know, they say, we got a 90 in biology versus I did well.
[6:36]And yet at the same time, you say in the book, helicopter parenting has crashed.
[6:40]So has it really crashed? And how do you get people off of the helicopters?
[6:45]So a couple of thoughts here. One is we don't think that helicopter parenting was
[6:49]ever as popular as the press would have you believe. It makes a great story. It makes a great
[6:54]headline. I mean, but there isn't actually almost any data how common it is. Parents who are truly
[7:00]overparenting. Parents who are truly intrusive in their kids' lives. So what's happened is parents
[7:04]and kids, teenagers and young adults, are much closer than they were generation ago. We are
[7:09]much closer to our children than our parents were to us in terms of the amount of communication we
[7:13]have in terms of what they want to talk to us about the important things in their lives. Their jobs,
[7:17]their aspirations, their romantic life. And maybe we conflated a little of that closeness with
[7:23]helicopter parenting. So first of all, there are some helicopter parents and the argument
[7:27]to make to them is really that you're damaging your kid. And that's what the professionals said.
[7:32]The biggest thing will get you pulled back. Helicopter parents have the best of intentions. And if
[7:36]they know how much their behavior damages their kids and keeps them from reaching independence,
[7:41]that's the best argument against it. But most parents have grown concerned that their helicopter
[7:48]parent and they're really not. They're just really close to their kid. So we talk in the book about
[7:52]a couple of things that maybe help parents. One is a rule of thumb, which is if you would do something
[7:58]for somebody else's kid, you should do it for your own kid. So if your kid were writing a college
[8:03]application or if your kid were writing wanting to know about a career, I would proofread your kids
[8:08]letter. I would look at their letter. I would look at their resume. I would make suggestions
[8:12]to them. I would take them to work with me for the day to show them what it was like. If I would do
[8:16]that for your kid, I should do it for my kid. So you're by and large, not overstepping when you're
[8:20]doing something that you would do for a niece or a nephew or a friend's kid. The other thing is
[8:24]what we're trying to do over these years is we're trying to go from the role of parents,
[8:28]the sort of all-powerful parent to the role of mentor. And if you feel yourself moving towards that,
[8:34]if you feel that they're taking more and more control and you're moving more and more into that
[8:39]consultative role, you're probably doing it right. Yeah. I think every, and what I was going to
[8:44]add when Lisa was talking about the tendency now of parents to be much closer to their kids,
[8:50]that is the case in our two families. We noticed that there's research that bears that out that
[8:54]we draw from. One thing that we've tried to do throughout the book is to look at the best research
[8:59]we can find around things. When you were talking about there not being any research to really
[9:02]substantiate the quantity of helicopter parenting out there, it's really, it may be kind of an
[9:08]anecdotal thing. Yeah. And the research actually shows that it's both the new closeness between
[9:13]teenagers and young adults and their parents is both beneficial for the parents and for the kids.
[9:18]We are helping our kids by staying close to them. It was kind of the best thing in life.
[9:22]One of the things that you see written about a lot is if your kid can do it themselves,
[9:26]you shouldn't do it for them. And this one I think we just agree with and we talk about in the book.
[9:31]My husband can do a lot of things I do for him. That's how you show people that you love them.
[9:36]That's what families do for each other. He can pick up his own dry cleaning, but sometimes I do that
[9:40]for him. So I think the same is true as our kids. If you make them their lunch and they're in high
[9:46]school, of course they can make their lunch. But then you let them sleep that extra 10 minutes.
[9:50]That's just showing families how you love each other. That isn't saying I don't think you can make
[9:54]your lunch. It's saying I can see how stressed you are and how tired you are. And this is this little
[9:59]bit of love I can show you.
[10:00]you by making you food and getting you out the door quicker. So we don't find that as a good criteria
[10:05]for helicopter parenting. And I think this comes into play in a very pronounced way during the
[10:10]college admissions season because so many people say it's my kid's steel, they can own it.
[10:16]It is a terrifying thing to think about doing college admissions on your own, especially if you're
[10:20]a 17-year-old when you don't really have perhaps the best organization structure. Of course they
[10:25]don't. We struggle to have a good organizational system. But if we can help them by looking at an essay
[10:32]or helping them plan out a college trip that involves flying and visiting and running a car and
[10:38]things that can be very complicated, I don't think we're over functioning for them. I think we're
[10:42]actually giving them as Lisa said this sort of love and support that we would want a family member
[10:47]to help us with. And as you point out in the book, the argument that nobody did this for us
[10:51]and we turned out just fine is not really relevant. And also, you point out which I found very
[10:56]interesting. Were we just fine? Could we have maybe been better? I mean, maybe this is even more
[11:02]beneficial. Yeah, there's a lot of data that suggests we were actually the worst generation.
[11:07]We were the worst behaved generation in history. Yeah, no, I'm not sure that we're the model we
[11:12]want to use. So what we're finding with Millennials and already with Gen Z who are now in college,
[11:18]they are drinking less. They are binge drinking less. They have fewer sexual partners.
[11:23]They are more responsible about using birth control. And when you put those two things together,
[11:27]there's a lot less unwanted pregnancy. Their drug use is by and large down, though marijuana use
[11:32]is about the same. They are more open-minded and accepting generation and they are getting educated
[11:37]in greater numbers than we did. So the notion that we were just fine is perhaps a faulting one. Yes,
[11:43]we got to adulthood. Yes, we're functioning adults. But to set an 18-year-old off on their own and say,
[11:49]you know, you got this. The way we did, we call our parents once a week on the phone.
[11:53]When we had a problem, we would consult other 18-year-olds who knew no more than we did.
[11:57]Our kids now tend to turn to us. So if they have a romantic problem, there is likely to talk to
[12:02]their parents now as they were to talk to a friend. Their parents have a lot more experience than they
[12:06]had and can be kind of a steadier force in their lives. So the notion that everything was fine and
[12:12]we should raise them the way we were raised, I think is pretty faulty. And you put really great tips
[12:16]in the book on how to help your kids through heartbreak, which I thought was so sweet too.
[12:20]I mean, you don't think about it. You know, I just don't think about how am I going to handle that.
[12:25]I feel like I'll just handle it, I guess. But you have like a roadmap and that's really helpful.
[12:30]And even just to anticipate it all coming. Obviously, you can think, yes, this will happen. But
[12:35]there it always laid out. Nicely it. It's Deafs to Follow. So that's awesome.
[12:40]It's true. I mean, it will, it is an inevitable thing. It's something we actually want for our kids.
[12:44]We want them to have relationships that perhaps aren't optimal for them that they can learn from.
[12:50]You know, but we want to let them know that we're sorry that we see them so hurt.
[12:54]We want to tell them that we've been in their spot and know that this is excruciating.
[12:58]We can offer to do something for them. You know, go on a walk. Have a little retail therapy.
[13:02]That's always a good one for my daughter. Send them a care package if their college
[13:06]or offer to come and get them, bring them home for the weekend. You know, that could be something that
[13:10]could be really beneficial. Obviously, tell them you love them. And then later, after the pain is
[13:15]subsided and you think you can have this conversation with your teen or young adult, talk about maybe
[13:20]what takeaway they have for men. You know, is there something about that partner that just
[13:23]wasn't optimal? Is it something that they realize when they think about a future spouse or a future
[13:29]partner or a romantic relationship, something that's going to be important that they possess,
[13:34]so they don't make a mistake? I feel like this is an offshoot of the advice for parents and
[13:39]younger kids too, where it's like, let them feel their feelings. The feelings themselves aren't wrong.
[13:44]You just have to help them through, but not try to squash it. Yeah. And sometimes the best thing
[13:51]we do is just, you know, Lisa Demore talks about this is dumping their emotional trash on us. Sometimes
[13:56]the single best thing we do is just let them unload on us and not doing that to a friend and not
[14:02]doing that to a roommate or something, doing it to us because we're able to handle that well.
[14:06]And sometimes they feel better just for having done that. They're sometimes they don't really need
[14:09]more than that. So in your house, you don't scream, don't take it out on me? Nope. No,
[14:13]I try not to. We may think it in a house, but it is very nice if they then let us know after the fact
[14:20]that the crisis is abated, that they're fine. You know, a lot of times they will give us that
[14:24]emotional trash and then they'll never call back and say, mom, you know what, I'm fine now, don't
[14:28]because we do continue to worry about them if we don't get that all clear signs later on.
[14:33]But then how do you protect yourself from just being a punching bag of your child?
[14:37]That's a hard one. I think hopefully we've had our own enough personal life experiences to
[14:42]realize that that relationship in college that didn't happen, that didn't turn out the right,
[14:48]the way they had hoped or that position that they didn't get or that, you know, gray that they
[14:53]didn't get is sort of a blip. We have the perspective on whether or not that's a big issue in
[14:59]their lives or likely to be something that they learn from and move on from. And when they're young
[15:05]teens, they still have, you know, they're going to have a lot of disappointments. They're going to
[15:08]try out for teams. They're not going to get on to it. And it's heartbreaking. They're going to try
[15:11]out for the play that they don't get into or get excluded. The one of the worst things we hear
[15:15]in the group all the time is being shut out of a friend group. And just you just want to cry
[15:20]for the 14 year old, a 15 year old girl who's being rejected by her former friends. It's
[15:25]it's excruciating to listen to even when you don't know the child. But what we possess at their
[15:31]friends don't possess is the ability to step back and say this is just one step on life. There
[15:35]will be more friends. There will be more friend groups. There will be, we know that as adults. So we
[15:40]have to be that punching bag sometimes. I feel that when I got that kind of advice when I was going
[15:45]through something, it didn't always help in the moment, right? Like if my mother, you know, this is
[15:50]just a place. Like there will be other friends. Like, but this friend is like the center of my
[15:54]universe. You know, I'm suggesting that we know that not that you say that to them. Okay, I think
[15:59]they'll find that condescending in the moment. No, I'm saying, when you're saying, how do you handle
[16:03]being the punching bag? Okay, you stiffer than being that. Yeah. No, at the time that that will be
[16:07]rejected and that will get you really ugly faces. In addition to all the tips you have on so many
[16:13]things, you also have like the handbook on dropping your kid at college in the middle of this book.
[16:18]You have expert advice. It does a lot of different amazing things for your target audience.
[16:23]You have tips on dropping kids at school from what to pack to what to say. What are some of the
[16:28]most important things? The most important thing to remember is this is a really, really important
[16:33]moment in life. We have a professor of many years. He's a professor of Emory who wrote a piece and
[16:38]it's in the book about how this is one of the big days. This is like weddings and bar mitzvahs.
[16:43]These are days we remember. Many of us can remember being dropped by our own parents.
[16:47]So his point is don't tell them not to mix darks and whites. Don't tell them to change their sheets
[16:53]every two weeks. The last thing you want them to remember about you walking away isn't,
[16:58]don't forget to, you know, wake up on time for a class. Yeah. Nice to see you too.
[17:02]Yeah. Plenty of time to nag. There's texts you can nag tomorrow.
[17:07]Try and say the most meaningful things, whether it's conveying your love to them at that moment,
[17:11]whether it's telling them something big about your life or your family,
[17:15]whether it's just like reasserting the confidence that you have in them or the pride that you
[17:19]have in them that they got to this moment. They're going to college. This is, they didn't get
[17:22]there by doing nothing. They worked pretty hard. So on that day, try and think of something of
[17:28]consequence to say as opposed to either standing there sobbing and I'm going to put my hand up on
[17:33]that one or saying, yeah, actually, or saying something trivial that really doesn't capture
[17:38]the moment. The most important thing to do is actually the week or two weeks before you make that
[17:44]trip to the freshman dorm, sit down and write a letter where you can really get your thoughts
[17:48]together. As you know, it's much easier to come up with something more profound. If you have a
[17:52]little bit of time and you have, you know, your computer in front of you where you can edit and
[17:56]come up with just the right words, leave that for them so that they have that to open after you've
[18:01]gone. It can be a real meaningful thing for both of you. I'm like getting emotional, just thinking
[18:06]about this as I told you, my son is leaving for boarding school and I read your book and I've been
[18:11]thinking in the back of my head, oh, I should really be doing that letter. And I'm like, what do I
[18:14]want to say? And then I don't want to write anything that's going to make him more upset.
[18:17]And because he says sometimes when he sees a picture or something, it, you know, brings it all up
[18:21]if they're distracted. But anyway, it's been in the back of my head. And of course, I would love to
[18:26]have that myself, right? I'm sure we all would like to have something I keep safely.
[18:31]Yeah, you know, I texted my kids a lot of those things and of course those are gone to the
[18:36]memory of man because they were tech. So that was foolish, right? That's the reason to write the letters
[18:40]as our digital communication just disappears. I think to mitigate that sadness and that highly
[18:45]emotional moment because it's emotional for them as well as for us, even if they do their best job
[18:50]of looking tough and wanting to be done with you, there are, in many cases, leaving every single
[18:55]person they know in life, their dogs, their families, their friends, their high school experiences,
[19:01]their experience of being a senior in high school or, you know, being sort of at the top of the
[19:05]social heap, moving into something that's much less certain as to what they're going to do.
[19:10]But I think knowing that you're going to see them and having a date in mind,
[19:13]well, we will be there for game day. We will be there for parents weekend. We will see you
[19:16]at Thanksgiving gives you all kind of an opportunity to say, okay, we know we're going to be
[19:21]together then we can kind of get to that point. So I've been seeing on Instagram a lot of
[19:26]friends I have with the older kid to our, you know, for ref having dropped off kids and it's
[19:31]the season still where people are kind of getting over that and transitioning to new formats.
[19:35]What do you have to say? Like what advice would you give to those parents who are
[19:39]readjusting to life with a child gone? It's very different, obviously, when you come back home and
[19:45]you see that empty bedroom, you know, it is a moment where you're thinking, how am I going to do this?
[19:50]But like Mike just said before, knowing that you're going to get together again is actually a
[19:54]it was a very big thing for us. So our son played football, so we thought we would actually be
[20:00]seeing him the following weekend.
[20:01]It was really such a painful thing.
[20:03]Our daughter went to school seven hour drive away
[20:05]and we weren't going to see her until parents weekend,
[20:07]which was six weeks away.
[20:09]But having that moment where I could focus on the positive
[20:13]in our future was actually beneficial to me.
[20:16]Yeah, the other thing is don't beat yourself up.
[20:18]If you're feeling really sad,
[20:19]if you're finding it hard to walk into their bedroom,
[20:21]don't tell yourself this is a good thing
[20:23]what's wrong with me.
[20:24]There's nothing wrong with you.
[20:25]This is one of the people that you love most in this world
[20:28]and they're not here.
[20:29]So why wouldn't you feel sad?
[20:31]I think we chastise ourselves a little
[20:33]and feel like somehow there's something weak
[20:36]or something wrong that we're feeling so sad
[20:38]and we should actually let ourselves experience that.
[20:41]We find most parents feel better after a couple of weeks,
[20:44]distract yourself with your other kids,
[20:45]distract yourself with your spouse,
[20:47]distract yourself with your girlfriends,
[20:48]whatever helps you move on.
[20:50]People talk about hobbies.
[20:52]I don't find that necessarily a hobby replaces a person,
[20:55]but friendships and companionships and partners,
[20:58]they certainly can feel some of that void.
[21:00]Certainly joining our Facebook group
[21:02]where you can commiserate with 125,000 people,
[21:05]many of whom are feeling exactly like you are.
[21:08]It does make you feel a little bit better
[21:09]to read something where someone expresses exactly
[21:12]how you're feeling and it's like,
[21:13]okay, I'm not the only one.
[21:15]Okay, that does make me feel better.
[21:16]So finding community, whatever that translates into you,
[21:20]into your world is really important.
[21:22]One of the things we've seen parents do
[21:24]that looks like so much fun,
[21:25]I wish I had done it actually,
[21:26]is they have care package parties after the kids of life.
[21:29]So everybody gets together with a bunch of the parents
[21:31]that you were seeing your moms together with.
[21:34]Everybody brings 10 of one item, let's say,
[21:36]and then they put packages together for the kids.
[21:39]Everybody puts one item in each box and write notes
[21:42]to the kids about, you know,
[21:43]you got this, this is gonna be great,
[21:44]I'm so excited for you, and share a glass of wine.
[21:47]And I was gonna say wine is usually part of the equation.
[21:49]Or coffee, it's morning.
[21:50]And then Kim is great and remember
[21:52]that everyone else is feeling exactly the same way.
[21:54]Someone just put pictures up last night.
[21:56]Yeah.
[21:57]It looks like a lot of fun.
[21:58]Yeah.
[21:59]They could combine that with a book party.
[22:01]Exactly.
[22:01]You know, they could all read a little snippets
[22:03]and that would be great idea.
[22:05]Yeah.
[22:06]So when I was getting used to my kids being away
[22:09]every other weekend, I had this big debate.
[22:10]Do I keep their doors open or closed when they weren't home?
[22:13]What do you think?
[22:14]Doors open or closed, the children who have left
[22:17]or away.
[22:18]You know, and I'd go for the door open only because I feel like
[22:22]it seems like it's so much of a void if it's shut.
[22:24]At least if there's light there.
[22:26]And you know, it feels really good to go back home.
[22:29]And invariably they have left coat hangers, bags of trash,
[22:33]stuff they decided not to take at the last minute.
[22:35]And it feels really good to go in, strip the bed,
[22:38]clean everything up, get it all nice and neat.
[22:40]Because one thing that doesn't generally exist
[22:43]with a teenager is a tidy bedroom.
[22:45]So if you can create a tidy space in there,
[22:48]there's this little tiny bit of gratification
[22:50]that comes with that.
[22:51]So I go for the open door.
[22:53]I close the door because I couldn't even look.
[22:55]So I think you could do it either way.
[22:57]I did not handle my children leaving well.
[22:59]It was really painful.
[23:00]And I literally couldn't look in their bedrooms for a while.
[23:02]So there you go.
[23:04]So take your chores.
[23:04]Exactly.
[23:06]Tell me a little more about the process of writing this book.
[23:09]How did you two, I know you two collaborated, obviously,
[23:11]on the Facebook group.
[23:12]But in terms of writing this book, how did you actually do it?
[23:17]And how did you, yeah, how did you collaborate?
[23:19]How did you find doing it?
[23:20]I know you've written on your own and with other people
[23:22]and with Merida, tell me about the whole process.
[23:24]It was really fun doing this because we, over the years,
[23:28]had, as I said, published about 500 different writers.
[23:30]So we had amazing people to go to and ask for pieces
[23:33]for the book, experts, professors, teachers, high school
[23:37]teachers, doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists,
[23:39]there's all sorts of people in the book.
[23:41]So first, we just thought of all the people we thought
[23:43]were best and could write the best pieces for us
[23:45]and kind of outline the book that way.
[23:47]The book is not really chronological.
[23:49]It's topical.
[23:50]So it's about love and family.
[23:52]And there's a section about health and mental health
[23:54]and happiness.
[23:55]And so it doesn't really walk you through,
[23:57]per se, from, let's say, from ninth grade
[23:59]through college.
[24:00]And then we started just drafting.
[24:03]And Merida would read a draft and she would tell me
[24:04]what was wrong with it, so that was really helpful.
[24:06]The problem with writing a book on your own is
[24:08]you can actually go down a rabbit hole of something
[24:11]that's not very relevant, something
[24:12]that you feel really good about that isn't actually very good.
[24:14]So it's really, really fantastic to collaborate.
[24:17]And that was really fun.
[24:18]Well, Lisa and I also started our website,
[24:21]almost eight years ago.
[24:22]So we have had, how many, like, 2,000, 2,500 blog posts
[24:27]that we have either written or in most cases now read
[24:30]and edited and worked on together.
[24:33]So we have a well-grewed sort of system of collaborating.
[24:37]We divide and conquer in what we do with grown and flown,
[24:40]but then we work together in a collaborative way.
[24:43]So we sort of had figured it out
[24:44]long before the book project came about.
[24:46]Are there tips to working with friends or tips in general
[24:50]how to balance the sort of work-wise relationship?
[24:53]Yeah, check your ego at the door.
[24:56]Like, Maridel is the easiest person you have ever worked with
[24:58]in your life because she's able to bring her mind to it
[25:01]without letting a person's ego get in the way.
[25:04]That's the hardest thing to work with
[25:06]when people find it hard to have their words cut.
[25:10]When somebody reads something you've written
[25:12]and says it's not clear or there are too many words,
[25:16]that comes from a good place.
[25:18]And as a writer, you just, it's hard sometimes to hear
[25:20]that.
[25:21]I will be honest, but you have to remember
[25:22]that that comes from a really good place
[25:24]and that it helps because it's not criticism, this is help.
[25:26]And so working with somebody,
[25:28]if you can just keep reminding yourself
[25:29]this is not criticism, this is help.
[25:31]It's really, really useful.
[25:33]I think Lisa and I also had a working relationship
[25:35]with school volunteers together
[25:36]before we started grown and flown.
[25:38]So every other Tuesday, we worked at the kids,
[25:42]schools, snack bar.
[25:43]We would talk the entire time,
[25:44]we would turn around when we had a long line of kids
[25:48]who were waiting on us to finish our story.
[25:50]So that we could give them their snapple in their bagel.
[25:52]And so we developed a working relationship
[25:55]that really I think was the foundation for launching it.
[25:57]We knew that we enjoyed spending time together.
[25:59]And that was huge.
[26:00]I don't think you would just pick somebody out of the blue
[26:03]that you'd never really worked with
[26:04]to be a writing partner or your business partner.
[26:08]I think the other real key thing for us
[26:09]is that we have very patient husbands.
[26:11]So they know that we spend a lot of time together
[26:15]building this business and working on the book
[26:17]and working on all the other grown and fun projects
[26:19]that we've got going on.
[26:20]And they're a really wonderful and supportive.
[26:22]So that's been that's been huge.
[26:24]That's always a good thing.
[26:25]That's always a good thing.
[26:27]How's everything?
[26:28]Did you consider other formats for the book?
[26:30]I thought maybe this would be an anthology of essays
[26:33]about similar to like the posts and the group.
[26:35]Did you think about an anthology or did you think about it?
[26:38]Was this the go-to format from the beginning?
[26:40]This is what the publisher wanted.
[26:42]Yeah, so it was, yeah.
[26:43]They wanted a book that very much mirrored the site.
[26:46]Did they come to you?
[26:47]Yes, they did actually.
[26:48]Nice, which is my fourth book.
[26:52]And so I know that that's not all typical.
[26:54]I've gone through the process of the proposals
[26:57]and hoping that someone will pick up your proposal.
[26:59]So it very much mirrors the site.
[27:01]And we're hoping that we pick pieces
[27:04]that we think people will read and reread.
[27:07]We hope it's more of a handbook in some ways.
[27:09]We were going for the what to expect
[27:11]with your expecting kind of thing where you dip into it
[27:14]and then set it down and then dip into it again
[27:17]because kids don't go through the milestones
[27:19]the way we do in pregnancy and early childhood.
[27:22]They go through things at very, very different times.
[27:24]So we're hoping that the book is useful
[27:26]for a very long period of time for parents.
[27:28]And certainly the chapters on mental health and happiness
[27:31]are really relevant for middle school kids
[27:33]as well as a young adult.
[27:35]There are elements there that are applicable.
[27:37]Do you have plans for more books or more extensions
[27:40]of this brand in any way?
[27:42]Well, the site keeps growing and the community keeps growing.
[27:45]It's grown much faster and larger than we expected.
[27:48]So we don't have concrete plans, but yeah,
[27:51]I mean, we're going to continue to expand it.
[27:53]There isn't a lot as we start,
[27:55]where we start the conversation.
[27:56]There just isn't a lot for parents in this age group.
[27:58]And we've reached a parent like such as yourself.
[28:01]People who had their kids in the 21st century
[28:04]and have always looked for online resources for raising their kids.
[28:06]If you had your kids in the 90s,
[28:08]you might have looked for books.
[28:09]You might have talked to friends
[28:10]and your own mother more.
[28:12]People who had their kids in the 21st century
[28:14]have always sought out online resources from babysitter on.
[28:18]And so we're finding that those are the people
[28:20]who are finding us now.
[28:21]I think the other thing too is,
[28:23]so we have the book, we have the Facebook group.
[28:25]But our website has a pipeline that is always full
[28:28]of writers, some of who are prolific and write for us
[28:30]frequently.
[28:31]Others are brand new that are new to us that we,
[28:34]and we love the combination.
[28:36]So we're publishing two or three original blog posts
[28:38]every single day.
[28:39]So that's continuing on.
[28:41]We have the book, but the website is very active
[28:43]with new writing all the time.
[28:45]But I feel like you should like license it and do,
[28:48]you know, like college care package kits
[28:51]or you could like make it a whole thing, you know?
[28:54]Well, we do.
[28:55]We have trademarked our name.
[28:56]Okay.
[28:57]So grown and flown is a term common term in England,
[29:01]but it can be more common here.
[29:02]It should just express this whole stage
[29:04]of your children departing.
[29:07]But you never know.
[29:08]You never know.
[29:09]All right.
[29:09]Look for more grown and flown projects.
[29:11]Looking back, is there anything
[29:13]you wish you had done or said before your kids left?
[29:17]I had a great time with college visits.
[29:20]My kids did not have nearly as much fun on them as I did,
[29:23]but it made me regret that I had not done more one-on-one
[29:26]trips with them.
[29:27]You know, sometimes life is just so busy
[29:29]and you want to take family trips.
[29:31]So, you know, obviously don't want to exclude one child
[29:33]or the other, but to be able to go away one-on-one
[29:35]with my son in particular, gave us a chance to really
[29:38]talk and work together as a team.
[29:40]You know, he would pick out the music
[29:42]for that we would listen to or I would find the hotels
[29:45]and he would come up with things we should do, you know,
[29:48]while we're visiting those towns.
[29:50]And we just didn't have that kind of opportunity
[29:53]to sort of do a fun project together,
[29:55]especially in high school.
[29:56]There's so much stress and so much like busyness
[29:59]and get this done.
[30:00]and deadlines and college application thing.
[30:02]It just wears you out.
[30:03]So being able to go and travel together
[30:05]when I'm one is really something
[30:07]that I wish I would have done.
[30:08]I have to echo Mary Del saying that.
[30:09]I wish I had spent more time one-on-one
[30:11]with each of my kids either traveling
[30:12]or just, you know, going out to dinner
[30:14]with one of them rather than, you know,
[30:16]always lump doesn't have to be a big trip.
[30:18]Yeah, no. My kids are close in age
[30:20]and they just were lumped together from day one.
[30:22]And I wish I had done that.
[30:23]There's two other things.
[30:24]I think one is I wish I had brought less
[30:27]of my own baggage into their adolescence.
[30:30]So I was so worried about them doing what I did
[30:33]or not doing what I didn't do
[30:35]that I parented.
[30:36]I brought really a lot of my own experience
[30:38]to their adolescence.
[30:40]They are not me.
[30:41]The times were different.
[30:43]They're different people.
[30:43]They're not even the same voice.
[30:45]They're not even the same gender as I am.
[30:46]And I wish I had brought less of my past
[30:49]and let go of my past more in raising them.
[30:52]And I guess the last one is
[30:54]I wish I had worried less and trusted us all more.
[30:56]I worried so much.
[30:59]And I worried about outcomes
[31:01]that we would have been able to handle.
[31:02]My kids are good kids.
[31:04]And my husband was there and a wonderful father.
[31:07]Yet I worried, you know, that this wouldn't happen
[31:09]or that wouldn't happen.
[31:10]None of which are major consequential things.
[31:12]And I would have made all of our lives a lot easier
[31:15]if I had just worried a lot less.
[31:17]That worried thing was really hard to do.
[31:19]Yeah.
[31:20]It just is really...
[31:20]I used to tell them I'm paid to worry
[31:22]when they said mom stopped worrying.
[31:23]I was like, no, I'm paid to worry.
[31:24]But you know what?
[31:25]It would have been everybody's flies a lot.
[31:27]Yes, I agree.
[31:28]I agree without that.
[31:29]That's absolutely the case.
[31:30]Wow.
[31:31]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[31:34]This is a great time to be an aspiring author.
[31:36]You know, over the last decade,
[31:38]the sort of gatekeepers that always stood
[31:40]between you and getting published
[31:42]have become less and less important.
[31:43]So I think to become aspiring author,
[31:45]I think meet lots of people.
[31:47]As many people as you can,
[31:49]reach out to people online.
[31:50]Everybody wants to help everybody.
[31:51]We love to publish people who've never published before.
[31:55]And there are people who's writing.
[31:56]It's really exciting.
[31:57]And there are people whose writing careers
[31:59]have started by just reaching out to us
[32:01]and sending us something wonderful.
[32:02]And they've ended up on national television
[32:04]and they've...
[32:05]It's been great.
[32:06]They've been great to see it.
[32:07]Yeah. And they've ended up
[32:08]with all sorts of wonderful progression to their career.
[32:10]So don't be at all shy about reaching out to people.
[32:13]Don't ever feel like you're imposing
[32:15]or you're getting in the way.
[32:17]People love to hear from aspiring authors.
[32:19]I think that would be one of the most important things.
[32:22]I think that's true.
[32:23]I think the barrier to entry is low to create a blog.
[32:28]You know, the hardest thing for us was to pick our name.
[32:31]That took us months.
[32:32]But then finally, your son was going back to college
[32:35]and he said, okay, it's now
[32:36]or when I'm home for spring break.
[32:38]I will help you get the domain name.
[32:40]I'll help you get going, but you just have to decide.
[32:43]But it took him very little time.
[32:45]Yeah.
[32:46]So once you decide that you want to write,
[32:48]definitely create a blog, pick a name,
[32:50]get going on it, experiment.
[32:52]You know, push all the buttons and see what you can do
[32:54]and what you can learn on your own.
[32:55]And that's just don't be afraid of social media.
[32:58]Explore Instagram, Facebook, whatever works for you.
[33:02]I would say the last thing is
[33:03]engage and listen to your audience.
[33:05]The advantage we have now over people had 10 years ago
[33:08]is you can get a lot of really instant feedback
[33:10]about whether your tone and your voice matters,
[33:13]whether what you're saying matters,
[33:15]whether it's compelling to people.
[33:17]And you didn't really have that opportunity for so long.
[33:20]Your readers will tell you a lot.
[33:22]Your readers will give you a lot of really, really useful
[33:24]and incredible guidance.
[33:25]If you've got a voice and you've got something
[33:28]that people want to say, you will be successful now.
[33:31]I mean, I feel like there are so many avenues now.
[33:34]If you're finding that your readers are reacting positively
[33:37]and they want to hear from you, keep pushing
[33:39]because you will be successful.
[33:41]Great.
[33:42]Well, thank you so much for all this advice,
[33:44]for your great book, for the community you've created
[33:46]and for helping so many people.
[33:47]Thank you.
[33:48]Thank you for having us.
[33:49]Good.
[33:49]Thanks again to my sponsor, Lauren Gabrielson,
[33:52]the Women's War brand that creates elevated essentials
[33:55]for the modern women's wardrobe, Lauren Gabrielson.com.
[33:59]Thanks for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[34:01]You can follow me on Instagram at Moms Don't Have Time
[34:04]to Read Books.
[34:05]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[34:08]for the Sound Editing.
[34:09]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[34:11]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[34:14]Thanks for listening.
[34:15]You could always email me at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.