Danielle Ganek, THE SUMMER WE READ GATSBY
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the web-in-nominated podcast,
[0:12]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:13]I'm excited to be here today with Daniel Ganak, who's the author of Two Novels,
[0:17]Lulu meets God and doubts him and the summer we read Gatsby,
[0:21]a self-proclaimed bookaholic, Danielle, a former magazine editor,
[0:25]currently lives in New York with her husband and children.
[0:27]So thanks, Danielle. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Time to Read Books.
[0:30]Thank you so much for having me.
[0:32]So you've written these two amazing novels, Lulu meets God and doubts him from 2007,
[0:37]and also the summer we read Gatsby from 2010.
[0:41]So let's start a little bit with Lulu meets God and doubts him,
[0:43]which is really a funny take on the Manhattan art scene
[0:47]with this little death twist thrown in there.
[0:50]So tell me about how you came up with the idea for that novel
[0:53]and how your own experiences and art collector kind of informed the writing of it.
[0:58]Yeah, well, I'm so, always so interested in writing about women who wrestle
[1:01]with their creative ambitions, and I'm particularly fascinated, obviously,
[1:06]with writers and people who are doing it with writing.
[1:08]But working with art and wanting that sort of wanting to express yourself through art
[1:14]is something that I've in all of the characters that I explore.
[1:17]I'm always trying to get inside that kind of thing and maybe just understand it for myself,
[1:22]but create characters who are trying to do that.
[1:25]So that was where I had started a long time ago.
[1:28]And I think you would ask me how long it took in that novel in a way,
[1:31]took 20 years because I kind of had always wanted to be a novelist
[1:35]came to New York out of college with that plan and then started working at jobs and magazines
[1:40]and things. And I was writing all along, but I hadn't really written in the long form.
[1:43]So it was a long process over a long period of time of kind of wrestling
[1:48]with those kinds of characters and those kinds of stories.
[1:51]And I had this idea that was sort of to put that kind of a character behind one of those desks
[1:57]in a gallery that was very high and sort of off-putting.
[2:00]It was so unlike what she was like, but she would be sort of there observing everything
[2:05]from this behind-the-scene where you might not even really notice that she was there.
[2:09]So I liked that way of looking at that world through her very observational lens.
[2:15]I feel like the women sitting at the desks when you walk into art galleries are a little bit
[2:19]intimidating to be honest. I feel like I know how to come in here is like a private,
[2:23]do I need an appointment? Well, that's what I was trying to play with.
[2:27]Even the door that's hard to open and the sort of attractive woman at the desk that makes it
[2:32]look like you shouldn't be there. And all of that is kind of a seems unnecessary in a way
[2:37]and inconclusive to the conversation about art and about kind of connecting through art.
[2:43]So my narrator and then his character is so not like that, but it's in her mind like at least
[2:50]it's a way to be in that world, although it's not a realistic path to becoming a painter,
[2:55]which is what she wants to do, but she's so caught up in her own kind of anxiety about whether
[3:02]she's allowed to be an artist and who's allowed to be an artist and you know whether she's good
[3:05]enough and all of those things that I think make that kind of character interesting.
[3:10]This is like when I interned at Vanity Fair and after like two days I was like there is no
[3:15]path from interning at Vanity Fair to being a writer. Is that right? That's how I felt. I was like
[3:19]that you did that. That's a cool, that's an amazing internship that was possible to get.
[3:24]It was amazing. It was really interesting, but I was like putting the little slides
[3:28]from the fashion department into two little sleeves. I did that job. I wasn't assistant in a magazine
[3:33]like you know and I learned the same thing. It was hard to go from one to the other.
[3:38]Yeah. I better find another way to get it. So that was your impetus for Lulu Meets got in
[3:44]Datsim. In the summer we read Gatsby. That's a different story altogether about half sisters, Cassie
[3:51]and Peck and they inherit their aunts home in the Hamptons. Although you have this funny
[3:55]thing in the book about how well no one really calls it the Hamptons. I actually read this book
[4:02]with a book group. I started out of the Children's Museum of the East End. Oh really? That summer.
[4:08]Oh wow. I had like little kids. I had my twins were so little and I had all these people over
[4:12]to my house from like recruited through seemingly we all read your books. I was like so nice.
[4:16]So you're just playing art. So how did you go? Like what inspired that book?
[4:24]So this one was a little different but it very much came out of my own autobiography in terms of
[4:29]I grew up, I'm American but I know I grew up living in foreign countries as an American
[4:34]but not in the way that we know now where there's internet and all this connectivity to
[4:39]you know the world is a lot more flat and you know that we kind of know the pop culture and
[4:44]all the references are sort of there. I grew up in the 70s and 80s living in South America
[4:51]and in Europe as an American so I was foreigner there so I became very much of an observer
[4:57]and that was sort of honed all this kind of trying to figure out the world and trying to write
[5:02]about it and try to understand it but it was mostly felt like a foreigner in the States when I would
[5:06]come back on the rare occasions we would come back and one of the ways that I really tried to
[5:10]connect with my own country and my own culture was through books and books were always my
[5:15]sort of way of connecting. I mean we had television but there wasn't a lot on television.
[5:19]We got movies you know late every now and again they'd be in English with subtitles in French but
[5:25]you know it wasn't always so easy to access pop culture so I liked the idea of this character
[5:30]coming here and trying to figure this all out with this half so I liked the idea of being related
[5:35]to somebody that you actually don't know at all and then I was also really fascinated by the
[5:41]you know we're here in this beautiful place it's so intoxicating and there's this kind of history
[5:46]of art and artists and people making art out here and I liked the idea of you know there's a
[5:51]painting in the books that they inherit in the house they inherit it that they they know it could
[5:56]be a polyic it's you know most likely it's not but maybe it is and they goes on this sort of adventure
[6:00]of trying to figure out if it is and that was something that was really interesting to me like
[6:05]a painting that could be or could not be maybe a fifty million dollar painting or something that
[6:09]you know in their minds I mean obviously if it was really a polyic you would probably know but
[6:14]there was that period of time where there were all these sort of undiscovered polyics being discussed
[6:18]so I wondered if maybe they could have found one. Why did you move around so much as a child?
[6:24]My father worked for American companies so but in we lived in Brazil when I was young and then I
[6:30]grew up in Switzerland and then I came to the States to go to college but my family was still
[6:35]there so I was going back and forth. Oh wow yeah are they here did they they are yeah my my parents
[6:40]live in Florida now. Oh these these exciting adventures now they're just like in a community
[6:46]and foundation I think that's what they do or my mother does anyway. I feel like that's something
[6:53]that a lot of writers share is the sense of sort of the observing nature seeing and it maybe
[6:59]because of being an actual outsider or just so you're born with that gene but there's something
[7:04]about being able to take it all in and synthesize it that I don't know I mean maybe you would have
[7:09]done that even if you hadn't been chilling you know. Yeah I don't know but I do think that is
[7:13]something that seems to be everyone that I know that writes particularly that writes fiction
[7:18]seems to have this kind of well like Joan Didian calls writers The Silent Belize like there is this
[7:25]sort of thing of paying attention and then almost kind of wanting to put on the page like see
[7:31]I was paying attention the whole time like I saw all that you know like there's something about kind
[7:36]of wanting or and also just processing that way like kind of trying to make sense of the world
[7:42]around you especially when you grow up like sort of without a lot of necessarily a lot of
[7:48]talking points like some families just don't discuss that much about you know here's how we do things
[7:54]or here's how the world works you know so you're trying to figure that out that's really interesting
[7:59]the first line of the summer we would get to be is hats like first husbands in my experience
[8:05]are usually a mistake which is like the best opening line talk to me talk to me about that
[8:11]well I sort of thought that that line kind of encompassed what this narrator learned over that
[8:16]summer in a way which was this kind of ability and maybe a coping mechanism of you know making
[8:23]a quit making a pithy line out of your pain and your misery and the theme that I was really trying
[8:29]to explore what I was trying to explore maybe for myself was this idea of like making anecdotes out
[8:34]of your life and out of your story and you are the author of the story of your life and how are you
[8:38]going to write that narrative you can choose to write it a lot of different ways the same facts
[8:44]different interpretations and what is that dude how you live your life if you're you know
[8:49]thinking of it one way versus another way so I kind of thought she's also very self-deprecating
[8:54]so she knows she's not going to look it in a hat you know she's told she has to wear a hat
[8:59]she knows it's a bad idea and in that way that we kind of talk ourselves into bad ideas like
[9:04]maybe even in relationships where we tell ourselves that everything's going to be okay or that
[9:10]this looks fine or that this husband is a good idea even though we know it's not so I think that's
[9:15]very much part of her character which is you know kind of trying to put a round peg into a
[9:20]square hole kind of thing trying to fit something in when you know it's actually not so Cassie who
[9:26]you were talking about pecs dad left her mom for Cassie's mom right right yeah and Cassie
[9:33]thinks that pecs sort of holds a long term grudge about that so when pecs says to Cassie she
[9:40]says I've always been insanely jealous of you I wish I could waltz down here with no makeup in an
[9:45]old nighty and stringy wet hair and look like that and then Cassie says it was the kind of thing
[9:49]she said but didn't really mean so I feel like there's always this subtext through everything
[9:54]that happened with these girls in south and in that summer like not really saying what they mean
[10:00]Never saying what they were saying, and Cassie having a rely on Peck to show her the ropes when she's really not a trusted guide at all, right?
[10:08]So I was wondering if somebody had shown you the ropes, like perhaps when you were coming back from all these trips, or if you just had to figure it out like yourself,
[10:16]did you have somebody like a Peck in your life and not really wanted that?
[10:20]I think we all kind of maybe crave that in particularly when we're young and we're like trying to figure things out and you know,
[10:27]you sort of want somebody who has this broader lens through which they look to kind of explain it to you.
[10:34]And then as you grow up and become an adult and kind of figure this out and this is part of being in your 20s and leaving behind that lens of childhood,
[10:43]you end up realizing that actually most people bring all their own stuff to their own lens and they're all looking at it.
[10:50]Everyone's basically the unreliable narrator in their own story and I think that's part of what this character realizes over the course of that summer that like in the end, she's going to have to be her own narrator, she's going to have to figure it out.
[11:03]And yes, she can listen to all this input, but she's, you know, listening to it with an ear for who the source is.
[11:10]Know your sources and know your audience, you know, are good rules that she brings to her.
[11:15]You know, she's a journalist and so she studied those kind of rules of interpreting facts and using them, but she's still in that relationship caught up in the emotional thing and she really wants to connect to the sister.
[11:27]You know, so there's that and then the sister keeps sort of pushing her off with these kind of quips like she's not really jealous, but she probably is on some level.
[11:37]So in a way, it's not that she doesn't mean it that she's kind of, it's a little bit of a jab like, you know, but it's passive aggressive so you can't react to it, you know, like all of that.
[11:47]Very familiar with the passive aggressive quips.
[11:50]Exactly.
[11:51]As a recipient mostly, but fully aware.
[11:55]So Cassie's Aunt Lydia encouraged her to write. She was an English teacher at a boy's school and she says to her start early, get a first novel under your belt now and she said that when Cassie was nine.
[12:07]So when did you get your start? Did you, were you writing it all when you were nine?
[12:11]I think I was nine and I think that's kind of where that came from when I kind of realized a how really valuable books were for me and how that was going to be kind of a way to sort of save myself from.
[12:24]you know, a lot of sort of tragedy and stuff in life that was going to be hard to deal with that I could escape into books and that also by writing and trying to write and trying to make sense of things through putting words on the page.
[12:38]I could maybe figure out some things that I wasn't going to be able to otherwise figure out.
[12:44]I think I started nine, but also I think I wanted to try to capture because this character of Lydia again, maybe as you're saying that about wanting somebody to be a guide, I think she was this fictional person.
[12:57]She sort of personified that guidance that I think we all want and she was like, you know, the way a really good teacher and the way that somebody who is very well read and kind of knows about the world will share things.
[13:08]So I think I was trying to personify it in that character she dies, but she's present.
[13:14]And in that idea that like as Picasso says like that all you know children are artists and it's become it's when you become the keeping trying to keep that when you're grown up that's hard.
[13:24]Like that sense of wonder that children bring to the world and trying to hold on to that like if you can start to capture it when you're young, you can maybe hold on to it more easily later.
[13:36]You never tried to do that, tried to put into words sort of craft a fiction about the life that you're witnessing.
[13:45]It might be hard to do it later.
[13:47]And did you find as you went on through your life that writing and reading did protect you from tragedy or from feeling the effects of that more? Did it mitigate any of the intensity of that?
[13:59]I don't know that it protects you from tragedy, but I do think that mitigating the effects or processing the effects.
[14:07]I really really believe in the power of the written word and I believe that it can help everybody and that you don't necessarily have to be a fiction writer to benefit from crafting your story in some way or another.
[14:20]And I'm actually really trying to explore that right now because I really do think that it helps.
[14:24]In those days also therapy wasn't quite as common and people weren't actually necessarily doing that in the same way or at least not in the world that I was living in.
[14:35]So this idea of being a place to express yourself throughout your life.
[14:40]I think that's an idea that I was really exploring in Lulu was this idea that creativity is how you connect to God or connect to whatever your idea of the spiritual is.
[14:52]Why is it now 2019 and you haven't?
[14:56]Why do you have been?
[14:58]Well, these books were really good and you obviously had momentum and you chose, I'm assuming you chose to go and...
[15:07]Why did I not assume anything?
[15:09]What happened after the location of the summer you read guests?
[15:14]What have you been up to since then? Maybe I should say it a different way.
[15:17]I know and it's a totally legitimate question and I do ask myself that a little bit and it's not that I haven't been writing because I have.
[15:24]I haven't necessarily been writing that well and I didn't necessarily write my way to a finished product that worked as an experience for a reader, if that makes sense.
[15:33]And I also went through just sort of some personal stuff and some difficult challenges in life that made writing for me a place that I could escape to.
[15:43]And so I was using it maybe for a different reason in those times which also didn't necessarily land me at the end of it with a novel that worked.
[15:54]I've written some unsuccessful works during that period and do still want to work on some of the stuff that I was working on then in a more productive way which is what I'm doing now.
[16:06]But I still felt that the benefits of writing were there if that makes sense.
[16:14]And so now I'm also trying to explore how that...
[16:17]How I might share that with other people and how that can really be a way to...
[16:22]As I said process but also make sense of and put your emotions in a place that maybe you can even help other people and at least help yourself kind of figure out what's going on.
[16:32]That makes sense.
[16:33]I totally make sense.
[16:34]I totally make sense.
[16:35]I totally make sense.
[16:36]I understand what you're saying.
[16:38]When you wrote these books obviously your kids were much younger.
[16:41]So I'm just wondering since I have kids ranging from 4 to 12, what happens as they get older?
[16:47]Do you actually have more free time to write and structure your time?
[16:50]How does it change as your kids really get older and you get part of your life back in terms of writing?
[16:57]It's interesting.
[16:58]I mean that adage of small children, small problems, big children, big problems, the issues and the time constraints and the demands on your time change.
[17:09]And so it's not as much...
[17:11]It's sort of like difference between quantity and quality in a way.
[17:15]And you have to...
[17:16]Like anything when you work for yourself, do all the things that you have to keep at that kind of self-discipline and all of that.
[17:26]But your time definitely changes and your relationship to time definitely changes.
[17:30]And you definitely have more time to read.
[17:32]And if you're a writer it's so great because reading is your work.
[17:35]So when you're reading you're working.
[17:37]So that's kind of a way that...
[17:39]So I never really stopped reading, but I was able to put it in this, you know, it's work.
[17:44]So I had to do it.
[17:45]And you seem like you've really mastered this, you know, sort of the issue of time and time management being so challenging we were talking about before.
[17:55]I don't know that that goes away, but I think it does get...
[17:58]Like you get better at it because you've done it for longer also.
[18:01]I have not mastered anything just with your FYI.
[18:05]I am fitting it in.
[18:06]Time is clearly such a big part of your, you know, what you're doing with the podcast and everything.
[18:11]And time is such a big issue for all of us.
[18:14]You know, whether we have kids or not kids working enough, working in an office, working at home, wherever you're working,
[18:19]whatever you're doing, time just is a huge paradox to me.
[18:23]Well, it's also such a finite...
[18:25]Like, you can't do anything about it.
[18:27]You can't get more time.
[18:28]You can't like fix...
[18:30]You can't barter...
[18:31]You can't manipulate it.
[18:32]You can't match what thinking is not gonna make it take more time or less time to do something.
[18:36]I had a really interesting conversation with my daughter the other day who's 18, you know,
[18:40]who's like, I don't understand how you can live in the moment and plan for the future.
[18:45]And I'm like, oh my God, that is exactly one of the big, you know, questions of life you're going to wrestle with it for the rest of you.
[18:51]I'm still trying to figure that out.
[18:53]It's so true.
[18:54]Yeah.
[18:55]I feel like I first really realized this when my twins were like two weeks old.
[18:58]And I was at a wedding.
[18:59]I had to like pump in the trailer bathroom situation.
[19:02]Oh my God.
[19:03]And I was like, I have to do this for like 10 minutes.
[19:05]I have to at least do 10 minutes or I'm going to be miserable.
[19:08]And there are all these people like Ben.
[19:10]Oh my God.
[19:11]And I'm like, whatever I do, I cannot make 10 minutes go any faster than 10 minutes.
[19:16]Right.
[19:17]And it was really just like, I have to surrender to time.
[19:20]Yeah.
[19:21]And as a parent, that's like, you know, it's like, I was felt like sort of on my knees from that moment on.
[19:26]It's like, you can't rush it.
[19:28]I don't know.
[19:29]I feel like perhaps I do spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about time.
[19:32]I spend so much time thinking about time.
[19:34]I read this really interesting book called The Time Paradox.
[19:37]I'm forgetting the name of the author.
[19:39]Usually if I mention a book, I like to remember the author's name and I apologize.
[19:42]I don't remember it because I read it a while ago.
[19:44]But it's kind of about that exact thing.
[19:46]Like, you know, there's so many paradoxes built into our relationship with time.
[19:49]But it is fixed.
[19:50]Yeah.
[19:51]There's no arguing.
[19:52]There's so much.
[19:53]There's so much.
[19:54]Yeah.
[19:55]Yeah.
[19:56]Yeah.
[19:57]But anyway.
[19:58]Also, I feel like when you publish these books.
[20:00]books. It was before Instagram was like the be all end all in the publishing world. Have
[20:06]you sort of adopted like if you were to go back or if you could do, if you would do it
[20:10]now, are you like raring to go with Instagram? Or you sort of, did you prefer it back
[20:14]the way it was when like books were just scared of Instagram? One reason I'm scared of
[20:19]Instagram is the time thing that we were just discussing. I don't know how to like go on
[20:24]it and then not lose track of time. So I don't really go on Instagram at the moment
[20:29]and I'm not, I think I'm on it, but I'm not like on it. I don't post things. And I'm
[20:35]missing out on a whole party that I need to try to figure out how to attend without losing
[20:41]getting lost in it. So I'm not, I'm not the person to have figured that out, but I do
[20:46]want to figure it out. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it must have been much easier before
[20:52]now. I mean, I feel like there's this daily attention you now have to pay to something else
[20:56]as an author that is new. I don't know. I feel like it must have been a lot easier
[21:01]to do it really well. And it's a, it seems like a really like a wonderful way to connect
[21:04]with your readers. And not to say there aren't amazing benefits to it, but just as like,
[21:09]you know, a part-time job, right exactly. You know, and there's this, you know, I watch this
[21:14]with young people. Like I just think it's so hard to be constantly thinking of yourself
[21:19]as a brand, whether you're a writer or you're just a person trying to be a student or
[21:23]whatever you are when you're 15, 16, 17, you're conscious of your brand at this point.
[21:28]And you're, they're, you know, they're very, they need to be very aware. They, we, all of
[21:32]us. And sometimes I think people really don't get it. They don't understand what they're
[21:38]revealing. And, you know, as a writer that A fascinates me, it'd be terrifies me because,
[21:43]you know, like images are so powerful. And being conscious of what you're putting out
[21:50]in the world, you can get so self-conscious, which is probably where I am, which is ridiculous
[21:54]also and sort of like get over yourself and no one really cares because they're scrolling
[21:59]by you in one half of a second. So they're not even really seeing it anyway. No one's really
[22:03]thinking about it that much. Well, I think it's normal to feel like self-conscious before
[22:08]it's throwing yourself up. I mean, I think you should have maybe so people should be more.
[22:12]Yeah. So in terms of books, have you read anything greatly that you want to talk about
[22:19]one of the books I loved this summer that I think, and you did or I don't know if you've
[22:23]aired the podcast, but I know you mentioned you had done podcasts with Laurie Gottlieb
[22:27]and maybe talk to someone. Yes, I aired it last week. Did you? Yes. I aired it. Yes. It's
[22:33]out there. Was out there. I just, I was so, I don't know her. I'm not, you know, I don't
[22:39]have any connection to her. I just loved the book. And I loved that form of writing,
[22:44]which is one that I've trying to explore a lot this summer in what I'm reading, but also
[22:48]for myself, which is sort of, I mean, she writes wonderfully as a memoirist, but she's
[22:53]a psychotherapist that she writes about the therapy world she writes about her patients,
[22:58]and it all kind of comes together in this kind of great, it sort of memoir self-help lifestyle
[23:03]guide. I don't know, psychology, interpretation. I've just found it so satisfying as a reader.
[23:11]See, I feel like maybe you should write about some of the stuff that you are saying. It's
[23:16]like unsuccessful and hidden away. I think that is where I'm trying to go. I'm more like,
[23:22]I don't know. I'm interested. And how that can be helpful, just kind of like that idea
[23:27]that sharing your own story, which some of us find really, really hard to do. Like I've
[23:32]always sort of looked at memoirists and absolute awe and amazement. And you know, I just
[23:38]couldn't even imagine mining your own life in that overt way and putting it on the page.
[23:44]But there's something so generous about that when people do that. And it's kind of at
[23:49]the core of all of our human connection is sharing our stories. And finding a way to connect
[23:55]in that realm on the page, I think it's such an interesting way to connect. And I'm definitely
[24:02]want to explore that more. It's really interesting. Yeah. Do you have advice to novelist,
[24:07]aspiring novelist based on your two fantastic books? Well, one thing that I always do try
[24:12]to say is what are you aspiring to? And I think you and I talked about this also like writing
[24:18]a novel, especially novels, especially in the long form, it's a really very solitary pursuit. You
[24:23]spend hours, many, many of them in a room alone with characters that you've created, with
[24:28]a world you've created. And if you enjoy doing that, but most people when I start to say that,
[24:33]I'm like, most of the time what I would say is do you like to be, you know, spend time alone?
[24:37]Oh, no, no, no, I hate that. I can't stand it. And I'm like, well, I don't think that you are
[24:42]aspiring to write a novel. I think you are aspiring to have written a novel. And those are
[24:46]different things. But if you enjoy that, I think, you know, it's that old thing that pretty much
[24:51]every writer who writes about writing says, like, then write it, you know, it's about sitting down
[24:56]and writing it, not talking about writing it, not avoiding writing it, writing it, and then
[25:01]rewriting it, and then rewriting it. And also I've read every book there is to read about writing.
[25:07]Those, I mean, there's just so many wonderful ones to read. So reading writers about their writing
[25:13]and their process is so great. I don't feel like not that, I mean, I'm not a novelist at all,
[25:18]but whenever I'm writing it, no, I'm really not, but I don't feel alone when I'm writing.
[25:23]Like I'm so engaged. Exactly. It's almost like if you're watching a movie,
[25:28]it doesn't matter if you're alone or not, you're like in the store. You're exactly right. So
[25:31]it's not like you're sitting alone in a room like bored, you're like sitting in a room
[25:36]watching Netflix or something. Absolutely. Yes. And if you are the sort of person that feels
[25:42]that way when you're alone in that room with your characters, then I think then yes, you should
[25:46]keep that. And you, you're going to enjoy it. But if you're the kind of person that gets an
[25:50]a panic, yes, like because you're not, you're not putting the Netflix on at that moment.
[25:55]Right. Right. Whatever. Yes. And you have to create, it has to come out of your own head,
[25:59]and you're like, ah, then maybe that's not what you really want to do.
[26:06]That makes total sense. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing your story and experience.
[26:10]And I really did. I mean, I feel like the summer you read Gatsby should come out like every summer
[26:16]because I was, no, it's just such a lovely, great story and like the coming of age and the 20s,
[26:21]but also the Hamptons. And I don't know, it has stuck with me all this time. So well, I love your podcast
[26:27]I think you should keep talking about books and it's just so much fun. Thank you so much. Thank you.
[26:31]You don't have to say that thing. Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[26:36]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time to read books. Thanks so much to Steve
[26:41]and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for
[26:46]providing this fantastic intro and now trim music. Thanks for listening. You can always email me at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.