Rex Ogle, FREE LUNCH
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening
[0:10]to the web-enominated podcast.
[0:12]Moms don't have time to read books.
[0:14]I am so excited to be here today with Rex Ogle,
[0:16]who's the author of Free Lunch.
[0:19]Rex was born and raised mostly in Texas.
[0:21]He says, I was, this is a quote.
[0:23]I was one of the poorest kids at a school
[0:25]for the children of the wealthy.
[0:26]I was on the subsidized lunch program and mocked endlessly.
[0:29]This is my middle school experience,
[0:31]but I think it's an important story to tell.
[0:32]A former children's book editor in New York City,
[0:35]Rex and his partner now enjoy much nicer weather here
[0:37]in the Los Angeles area.
[0:39]It was so welcome to Rex.
[0:41]Thank you, it's true that the weather is nicer here.
[0:44]For sure, it's nicer here than for you much anywhere.
[0:46]Yes, it's amazing.
[0:48]My kids and I and my husband loved your book.
[0:51]Like, I don't always say that.
[0:52]I mean, I love no they shouldn't say it.
[0:54]Hold on, hold on, hold on.
[0:55]I really enjoy every book that's been on the podcast,
[0:57]otherwise I wouldn't have it on the podcast.
[0:58]However, this particular book I feel like
[1:01]should be required reading for all kids in America.
[1:05]Full stop.
[1:06]Like, really powerful and amazing.
[1:09]So I just wanted to say that.
[1:10]Thank you.
[1:11]Thank you very much.
[1:12]Tell everybody what free lunch is about
[1:14]and what inspired you to write it.
[1:15]So free lunch is essentially a typical middle grade story.
[1:20]It has to do with wanting to be on the football team
[1:22]and trying to figure out where to sit
[1:25]and the transferring to a new school jitters.
[1:28]But it also has to do with my experience
[1:31]which had a lot of poverty and domestic violence
[1:34]and how that affected my life.
[1:37]Did you, cause I was looking at the cover
[1:39]and I was like, is he trying to sell this
[1:41]as a middle school memoir?
[1:43]Cause it doesn't say right away.
[1:45]You don't know if it's your story or a fiction.
[1:47]It's 100% my story and it is not fiction.
[1:50]I sometimes wish it were.
[1:52]But it is 100% the things that I live through,
[1:55]the stuff that I had to experience on a day to day basis.
[1:59]And so it's a lot and but it is middle grade
[2:02]and it's funny because when I first wrote it,
[2:04]I was like, you know, I could have written like a memoir,
[2:07]like an adult looking back at their childhood
[2:09]but then I was like, no, like I don't want adults
[2:12]reading about my childhood.
[2:13]Like the whole point of me writing this
[2:15]is to write a story for kids,
[2:17]that kids can relate to and see themselves in
[2:20]and then also take away something important.
[2:22]Amazing.
[2:23]You said there's in the authors note
[2:25]that you included at the end of the book.
[2:26]You wrote that you felt exhausted and sad
[2:28]and a little sick to my stomach
[2:30]because everything was true.
[2:31]And you said every lunch, every laugh, every punch.
[2:34]So you're revisiting this extremely painful time
[2:37]in your own life.
[2:38]How was it to write about it?
[2:40]You had said you put it off for a long time,
[2:41]you didn't write about it.
[2:44]What was it like for you?
[2:45]When I first started writing it,
[2:46]I had been dabbling in writing short stories
[2:49]about my childhood because it's like,
[2:51]I'd write a chapter, then I'd be,
[2:53]I'd basically have a panic attack.
[2:55]Then I was like, I can't keep writing this
[2:57]but then I was working as an editor in New York City
[3:00]and there were all these books that were coming in
[3:02]and it was just like,
[3:04]supernatural and fantasy and sci-fi.
[3:05]And I love those books.
[3:07]Like that's actually what I wanted to write
[3:09]but everyone kept saying like,
[3:11]we need important stories
[3:13]and stories that can help kids
[3:15]maybe live a better life
[3:17]or have a different experience
[3:18]or maybe have hope.
[3:19]And when someone said the word hope,
[3:21]I was like, God, I had so little hope as a kid.
[3:23]I wanted to write something.
[3:25]They gave hope and showed kids like,
[3:27]you can live through bad things
[3:29]but you can still come out the other side and be better.
[3:32]I think I completely just lost track of your question.
[3:34]No, no, it's fine.
[3:35]You said, I'm sorry, you're perhaps distracted
[3:37]by the fact that my six-year-old is poking me
[3:40]in the shoulder right now
[3:41]that I'm trying hard to ignore.
[3:42]But it's super cute.
[3:45]You wrote at the end of your author's note
[3:48]for what you were just saying.
[3:49]If you're having a hard time,
[3:51]my advice is simple, hang in there, give it time.
[3:53]Life likes to surprise you when you least expect it
[3:55]and stay strong, no matter how dire things seem,
[3:58]things can change until they do.
[4:00]No one can take away your ability to hope.
[4:02]Yes, and I mean, the reason that I wrote that is
[4:05]because I think as a kid, you know,
[4:06]I thought I was the only one suffering
[4:08]with all these horrible things.
[4:09]Like, I went to a school and I saw all these kids
[4:12]just like, they come to school in their fancy cars
[4:15]and with like, dress really nicely.
[4:17]And I would come in my second hand clothes
[4:20]and it's like, our car was old and beat up
[4:22]and it was just like, it was every,
[4:23]I was embarrassed like constantly by my life.
[4:26]But there was some little part of me that was just like,
[4:29]it will get better, it will get better.
[4:30]And I don't think it gets better for everyone.
[4:32]I would love to say it gets better for everyone,
[4:35]but it doesn't.
[4:35]And but I do, I do believe,
[4:37]or at least I have to believe that if you put in the work
[4:40]and if you really try to make yourself a better person
[4:43]and I don't know have empathy for others,
[4:46]I think that you can make the world
[4:48]a little bit of a better place a day at a time
[4:51]and then that will also impact your life.
[4:53]And the way you're so empathetic with your mother
[4:56]and the scene like towards the end of the book
[4:57]where you were just like, this must be so hard for you.
[5:00]And despite everything you put you through,
[5:02]you could see her struggle and sort of relate to that
[5:06]and then you saw her open up a little,
[5:07]just a little, but enough.
[5:09]And I mean, it was so powerful.
[5:11]And the thing is, is like, I saw my mom suffering
[5:14]not just in her own little ways,
[5:16]like struggling with money and not being able
[5:17]to pay the bills.
[5:18]And I think at the time, it was, you know,
[5:20]middle school was like this big awakening for me.
[5:23]And, you know, as it is for most kids,
[5:25]but for me, it was also tacked on that, you know,
[5:28]I was like, I'm embarrassed.
[5:29]I'm embarrassed, like I'm ashamed.
[5:31]I'm, you know, I had all these feelings,
[5:32]but I never considered how it felt for her
[5:34]to not be able to put food on the table
[5:36]and to have to, you know, go to the grocery store
[5:40]and do welfare.
[5:41]And I was always throughout the book, like,
[5:43]and sixth grade, it was like how it impacted me,
[5:45]but when I realized, oh God, like, she must be suffering too.
[5:49]And not just that, but the domestic violence,
[5:51]of course, takes it to a whole lot of their level.
[5:53]by writing about such a personal and painful experience.
[5:57]If there are kids out there who read this,
[5:59]who are relating to this and don't talk about it
[6:01]or don't want to share it,
[6:03]what would you like to have happen as a result?
[6:06]I mean, I would love for kids to know
[6:08]that there are at least hotlines that they can talk to.
[6:11]If they can't talk to a grandmother or a relative
[6:14]or a friend at school or a trusted teacher,
[6:17]because I didn't feel like I had those things.
[6:19]And so I, if I had known there were hotlines,
[6:22]and I think, I mean, in the 80s,
[6:23]like we didn't have the internet,
[6:24]but things are so much more readily accessible.
[6:27]And if they can just get to a phone
[6:29]and their hotlines for domestic abuse,
[6:31]there's suicide hotlines, there's different places
[6:34]that kids can call and just hear a friendly voice
[6:37]if they don't have one in their life.
[6:38]So I really just, I hope that my book,
[6:41]like instills that in people like earn kids,
[6:43]especially like that there are resources out there,
[6:46]and there are people that will help them.
[6:47]And I think it's also so important,
[6:49]especially for middle schoolers,
[6:51]who I think by their very age,
[6:54]they're becoming more self-conscious
[6:56]and knowing all the things that other people are going through.
[7:01]Right?
[7:02]It's not just about their things.
[7:03]Like you're embarrassed about the things
[7:05]you were embarrassed about,
[7:06]somebody sitting over there is embarrassed about something else,
[7:07]just like your friend at the end of the book,
[7:09]whose name I'm forgetting anyway.
[7:11]I know his name in real life,
[7:12]so I was getting confused with the fact that you're the best friend
[7:14]in the book, who was like, you know,
[7:16]I'm embarrassed by these things,
[7:17]and I'm ashamed to admit this.
[7:18]And every kid kind of has their thing,
[7:21]and seeing like, well, look at all the things going on.
[7:24]Like you don't know what goes on in people's family.
[7:26]You really don't.
[7:27]You have to be so respectful of everybody, and just,
[7:29]I don't know.
[7:30]It's just such a good lesson.
[7:32]Yes.
[7:33]The more self-centered times of life, I guess is what.
[7:36]And a good lesson for grown-ups too.
[7:38]I mean, this is not just for kids.
[7:39]Your story is like a universal message, really.
[7:42]Yeah, it's funny, because I wrote it,
[7:44]I think I started writing it five years ago,
[7:46]and it's like I'd write a few chapters
[7:48]and I would get really depressed,
[7:49]because I was like reliving this stuff,
[7:51]and I was like, I mean, to go to therapy,
[7:53]like extra therapy, just because I was like,
[7:56]I just needed to cry and like to talk,
[7:57]and like because you're like writing these things,
[8:01]it's like re-experiencing them is so painful.
[8:05]But again, like I just kind of clung to,
[8:07]this is an important story.
[8:08]I think it needs to be written,
[8:10]because growing up it's like I read plenty of books
[8:12]about like rich princes, and you know,
[8:15]all these people who are good at something,
[8:18]and I felt like I didn't have anything that I was good at,
[8:20]and I felt like I was lacking in so many ways.
[8:23]So I feel like this is a good story,
[8:24]so that kids who are in similar situations
[8:27]can pick it up and be like, oh my God, I'm not alone,
[8:30]I'm not the only person on the planet's suffering,
[8:32]because it's like now, as an adult like 30 years later,
[8:35]like I look around the planet, I'm like,
[8:37]my life was pretty easy.
[8:38]No, it wasn't.
[8:40]But I mean, compared to like some of the things
[8:42]I mean, yes.
[8:44]But yeah, I mean, it's just so crazy
[8:46]that we live in a world where these things still happen,
[8:49]because I don't know like now is an adult.
[8:51]I'm like, we're such an evolved species,
[8:53]and I'm like, maybe we're not, but yeah.
[8:56]And I feel like you talk a lot in the book
[8:58]about how reading helped you as a child,
[9:00]even though your teacher made fun of you,
[9:03]and didn't want you reading Stephen King in your class,
[9:05]but you always seem to be drawn to books.
[9:07]Tell me about how books helped you.
[9:09]I love books, I don't know what it was.
[9:11]I just remember when my parents split when I was five,
[9:14]I had a stack of Dr. Seuss books,
[9:17]and I went back to them over and over and over again.
[9:19]And that was a little older,
[9:20]I discovered Alice in Wonderland,
[9:22]and I loved Alice in Wonderland.
[9:23]And there was something about escaping into a world,
[9:26]so-and-like ours, and I very much gravitated towards
[9:30]genre like fantasy and magic or science fiction.
[9:33]And I was the same way with movies,
[9:35]and so it's funny because I always thought
[9:38]that I would be the next J.K. Rowling.
[9:40]Fingers are still crossed on that one,
[9:42]but when I started writing nonfiction,
[9:43]it was, it's just such a different experience,
[9:45]and as a kid, I don't think I gravitated towards that.
[9:48]I definitely wanted to escape reality,
[9:51]and books were just such a great way of doing that,
[9:53]especially comic books.
[9:54]I mean, just reading X-Men was such like,
[9:57]the whole world hates and fears me,
[9:59]and that's kinda-
[10:00]How I felt like at my school was I was like,
[10:02]kids don't like me, but I didn't have anything against anyone
[10:05]and I wanted to make the world a better place.
[10:08]And so I guess in my own way,
[10:09]I'm doing that through books now.
[10:11]So I'm not now the writer that I wanted to read as a kid,
[10:15]but was too scared to.
[10:16]So full circle.
[10:18]Oh, circle, that's amazing.
[10:19]Tell me about your relationship with your brother Ford
[10:22]because I feel like I developed such an attachment to him
[10:24]after your book,
[10:25]because you basically were his primary caregiver.
[10:27]You did everything for him at such a young age.
[10:30]Yeah.
[10:31]Tell me about your relationship.
[10:32]Now your relationship then.
[10:34]I mean, our relationship then, it's funny because I think
[10:36]that in the book I may have,
[10:38]I should have made it a little more round
[10:40]that there were times when he just really aggravated me
[10:43]because I mean, I was almost 10 years older than him.
[10:45]And it was, you know, instead of playing with my friends
[10:49]or, you know, just reading books,
[10:50]like I was giving him baths and cooking dinner for him
[10:53]and teaching him how to read.
[10:54]But the thing was we had so many moments where
[10:58]just like I wanted to protect him from what I went through.
[11:01]So I mean, I just loved him so much and so hard.
[11:04]And it's funny because now we're super, super, super tight.
[11:09]And I know a lot of, I have friends who have siblings
[11:12]who are like, you know, they have the 10 year age gap
[11:14]and they're not close to them at all.
[11:15]But me and my brother talk like once a week now,
[11:19]if not twice a week and we're always checking in on each other.
[11:21]He owns like a big ranch down in Texas.
[11:23]He's a nurse and he's just like,
[11:26]we talk all the time and it's great.
[11:29]Did he read the book?
[11:30]He, well, I sent him an early draft of the book
[11:33]and he's like, I can't wait to read it.
[11:35]He's not a reader so he hasn't read it.
[11:38]I think he's read parts of it.
[11:39]He has said like, he's like, I read one chapter
[11:42]and I can't, I need a break.
[11:44]Like, I think seeing that because he knows a lot of the stuff
[11:49]happened but he doesn't remember
[11:50]but he lived through his own stuff.
[11:52]Like when I went off to college, like he dealt with other stuff
[11:55]and we actually have another brother
[11:57]who's 10 years younger than him.
[11:59]So he actually had a very similar experience
[12:01]to what I did just with a different stepdad.
[12:04]So same mom, different dad, different stepdad.
[12:08]Yeah. But we are super tight.
[12:10]Do you think he knows how the length you went to protect him?
[12:13]Absolutely.
[12:14]I think he went through similar things.
[12:16]His stepdad was, his dad was abusive but not to him
[12:19]and then his stepdad was actually not abusive
[12:22]but my mom was a little bit more so so that's,
[12:26]but I mean, she is, I think, you know,
[12:30]can't help herself.
[12:30]She went through a lot of stuff when she was a child
[12:32]which, yeah, but that's a whole other story.
[12:35]So.
[12:36]Oh, I'm like not going to let you leave.
[12:37]I want to like sit you down after this and be like,
[12:39]I want to know everything.
[12:41]Yeah. Like after going through this book with you,
[12:43]I feel like, I don't know.
[12:45]You just, you know, I feel like I care
[12:47]so it's very good, you know, just let you know.
[12:49]Well, thank you very much.
[12:50]So you also wrote, so I was like googling to research
[12:54]anything new and I read your really heartbreaking essay
[12:57]on half post, which you called,
[12:59]the day my dad kicked me out for being gay changed my life forever
[13:02]and you talk about literally being kicked out of the house,
[13:05]being homeless, not having any place to go
[13:08]and finally calling your abuela who's sort of this shining light
[13:12]and free lunch and now and obviously your life
[13:14]and she basically saved you.
[13:16]So tell me a little about that heart wrenching experience.
[13:20]I mean, let me just put you through all you're missing again.
[13:23]So my boy, you can go from here to your therapist's office.
[13:26]Yes, I love her.
[13:27]She's still around.
[13:28]She's still, we talk almost every day.
[13:30]Oh, she is still in Texas.
[13:33]I actually moved out when I was 16 and lived with her
[13:36]and finished high school and then I ended up leaving
[13:39]to go get to know my dad when I was 17
[13:42]and then as soon as he found out I was gay,
[13:45]he booted me out.
[13:47]He did say I had a choice in his defense,
[13:49]which was if I wanted to stay, I could go to church
[13:51]and there'd be and lead a heterosexual lifestyle
[13:54]and after living with my mom and having to deal with
[13:57]so many things, I was like, you know what?
[13:59]I just, I can't have another person telling me what to do.
[14:01]So I will opt out and so I went to New Orleans
[14:05]and then lived on the streets
[14:07]and that was a whole other difficult part of my life.
[14:11]And it's funny because my publisher actually came to me
[14:12]after reading the post article.
[14:14]I was like, can you write a book about this a YA book?
[14:17]And I was like, that may take me a while
[14:19]because a few years ago I wrote a book called Free Lunch
[14:21]and it took so much out of me.
[14:23]And I just like, I would need a couple or three years.
[14:26]He's like, well, let me read Free Lunch
[14:28]in the meantime so I gave it to him
[14:29]and that's how this book got published.
[14:31]Oh, no way.
[14:31]Yeah, so that's actually how Free Lunch came to be.
[14:35]But the experience of being kicked out was devastating
[14:38]because it's, my mom was already not a safe space for me
[14:43]and then now my dad, who I was,
[14:45]I moved in to get to know, booted me out.
[14:48]And then so it just felt like I didn't have a mom,
[14:50]I didn't have a dad.
[14:52]And I was already struggling with a traumatic childhood
[14:55]and then also coming out.
[14:57]And I kind of came out late in life
[14:58]because I had so much other stuff to deal with
[15:01]when I was younger, that it was like not a priority
[15:05]or even like something that I thought about
[15:07]like needing to deal with.
[15:09]So and I know there are other kids who deal with it
[15:11]at a much younger age now and to them like,
[15:13]again, I just wanna say like hang on to hope
[15:16]their resources out there, you're not alone.
[15:19]And God, I wish I had the internet as a kid
[15:21]because there are so many resources
[15:22]and you can just Google stuff.
[15:24]And I hope kids know that.
[15:25]I'm sure they do.
[15:26]They're much more smart.
[15:27]They're much more smart than I am
[15:29]when it comes to technology.
[15:30]So my four-year-old who you just met
[15:32]ordered like 57 things on Amazon the other day
[15:36]arrived at my ass the whole, you know,
[15:38]the nojorie of Paw Patrol characters though, yeah.
[15:42]Kids today, yes.
[15:43]They're on the internet.
[15:45]They know.
[15:46]They know.
[15:47]And yet, despite everything you went through,
[15:49]you have picked yourself up, you've written books,
[15:52]you're a book editor, you've ghost written tons of books.
[15:55]How did you get from there to here?
[15:57]I have to say it was my boy love because she,
[16:01]I mean, I'm working on a book that won't come out
[16:04]anytime soon, but about her life,
[16:06]because her life, it makes my life look so easy and simple.
[16:09]And what she pulled herself up from always encouraged me
[16:13]to keep pulling myself up and just to keep working.
[16:15]And basically, she just said, like,
[16:17]if you put in the work, it will eventually pay off,
[16:19]which, you know, I moved to New York City when I was 23
[16:22]and I went with a thousand bucks in the duffel bag.
[16:25]And I was like, I'm going to work in book publishing
[16:27]because I want to be a writer one day.
[16:29]And coming from where I came from,
[16:30]I just never wanted to be a starving artist.
[16:32]So I was like, I can't just like, right.
[16:36]I need to like go into, I need to work hard
[16:38]and I need to get to know the industry.
[16:39]So I worked in book publishing and supported myself
[16:42]and learned the ins and outs just so that I could put food
[16:45]on my own table and take care of myself
[16:47]because I don't have parents that I can rely on.
[16:50]And my boy love, as amazing as she is,
[16:53]has a lot of other grandchildren and take care of too.
[16:55]So I didn't want to take advantage of her
[16:57]because she was always like,
[16:58]if you need anything, I'll always be there to help,
[17:00]but moving to New York is an expensive place.
[17:03]And so I moved there and I literally just worked mine.
[17:07]Had you gone to, wait, so you went to New Orleans,
[17:09]just quick, but by timeline clarification for me,
[17:13]you get kicked out, you're homeless and New Orleans.
[17:15]You go back to your will,
[17:16]and you end up living with her.
[17:17]Yes, and then I go to college.
[17:19]Yep, finished college, then you moved to New Orleans.
[17:22]And then I moved to New York.
[17:23]Okay, all right, resume, thank you.
[17:24]So you're in New York.
[17:25]I was in New York.
[17:26]You found a job in publishing.
[17:27]Yes, and I've been writing, writing, writing, writing,
[17:29]writing, not stopping.
[17:30]It was funny because for the first 10 years,
[17:32]I got the same note all the time, which was,
[17:34]there's no hard on this, there's no emotion in this.
[17:36]And I was like, really?
[17:38]And I was like, but the action and the plot,
[17:39]the characters and they're like, but where's the heart?
[17:42]And I realized that all the stuff
[17:44]that I had been avoiding as a kid
[17:47]is exactly what I was like,
[17:48]I don't wanna write about bad things.
[17:50]I wanna write about happy things.
[17:51]I want everything to be happy all the time.
[17:53]I don't want to write sad things.
[17:55]And then that's when I was like,
[17:57]you know what, maybe I should try.
[17:58]Maybe I should just confront
[18:00]what I've been avoiding since I like left.
[18:04]And that's how free lunch was born.
[18:06]Was I started writing?
[18:08]I was like, I guess I just went full tilt.
[18:10]I was like, I guess I'm just gonna write
[18:11]the most painful parts.
[18:13]Oh, yeah.
[18:14]Well, you do what everybody says to do, right?
[18:16]Right. Go right there.
[18:17]Yeah.
[18:18]I mean, but it's not basically not easy.
[18:20]Yeah.
[18:21]Yeah.
[18:22]And then now you've moved out here to LA.
[18:24]Yes.
[18:25]Still working a book publishing.
[18:26]Are you writing full time?
[18:27]Nope, I'm writing full time.
[18:28]I love it.
[18:29]I'm so happy.
[18:30]It's really great because this is what I've wanted to do
[18:32]since I was a kid was just be a writer.
[18:34]And I never thought, it's one of those things
[18:36]where it's like, I just never thought I'd be able to do it.
[18:38]I'd always thought I'd need to have a job.
[18:41]But now it's like, I'm just so happy to be writing
[18:44]because as a kid, I always wanted to escape reality.
[18:47]And now I'm helping other kids to escape reality.
[18:50]Not, maybe escape is the wrong word.
[18:52]I don't want it to sound so like,
[18:54]a reality is the worst place ever.
[18:56]No, reading isn't escape.
[18:57]Yes.
[18:58]No, escape release, like shift in mindset.
[19:01]Yes, but it's also something that I think,
[19:04]I think that books taught me so much
[19:05]because I didn't have parents who gave me a good example.
[19:09]But I learned a lot of great examples
[19:11]in how to treat other people through books.
[19:13]Like, I mean, librarians saved my life, essentially.
[19:16]Like, because I was at the library every Saturday morning
[19:19]and I would stay there all day with Shelby.
[19:21]Like, I'd read books.
[19:23]He'd take naps and librarians would just be like,
[19:26]they loved me because I was there all the time
[19:29]and they would always recommend books
[19:30]and I was always reading up.
[19:32]Yeah, and it was just great.
[19:34]And so now you've done a lot of books under a pseudonym.
[19:38]Yes. Why is that?
[19:39]And is that what you're doing for the show now?
[19:41]When I was a book editor,
[19:43]it was always, they said that I could write
[19:45]just not under my own name
[19:46]because it would be a conflict of interest, maybe,
[19:49]to be like, rex or gold at the editor,
[19:51]but also rex or gold at the writer.
[19:53]And also like a lot of the stuff I was working on
[19:55]is like eight by eight for Lego Star Wars.
[19:58]Those are all like fun books, but it's nothing.
[20:00]that is gonna change the world.
[20:01]So I wanted to kind of save my name for a book
[20:05]that was really important to me.
[20:06]So free lunch is obviously very important to me.
[20:10]Oh my gosh.
[20:11]And so what else are you working on now?
[20:12]You have to play a little bit.
[20:13]Yes, I am working on a graphic novel with scholastic
[20:17]about getting glasses and sixth grade.
[20:18]So it actually takes place at the same time as free lunch,
[20:21]but it's a Disney version of my life.
[20:23]So most of it's true, but it's also just like,
[20:25]a pure and fun, very reina-telego-my or smile
[20:27]and sisters book, like I just want to tell
[20:30]us to write something like, because at the same time,
[20:32]I'm also writing my follow-up to free lunch,
[20:35]which is called punching bag, which,
[20:37]if you thought free lunch was heavy,
[20:38]punching bags are gonna be a little bit heavier.
[20:40]But the thing is, is after I wrote free lunch,
[20:43]I was like, I think it's important to talk about these things.
[20:45]And I think, I mean, I don't know about,
[20:48]I cannot speak to myself, but, I mean,
[20:50]I can only speak for myself, but growing up,
[20:52]I thought I was the only kid with violence at home.
[20:56]And I think now it's like, I read statistics
[20:58]and they blow my mind, because I was like,
[20:59]that's not possibly true.
[21:02]There can't be this many people living with violence
[21:05]in their lives.
[21:06]And so, yeah, I'm working on something
[21:08]that's more focused on domestic violence and self-harm
[21:11]and depression and essentially like,
[21:14]pulling yourself out of that,
[21:15]because I think that mental health
[21:17]is such an important topic.
[21:19]I mean, I've been in therapy for the last 15 years,
[21:21]trying to get to a better headspace
[21:24]after the things that I lived through.
[21:26]And I just, I want kids and adults.
[21:30]I want everyone to know that they're not alone
[21:32]and that no matter what happens in their home life,
[21:35]they can still be a good person and that they're worth something
[21:39]and that they can be loved and they can love themselves,
[21:42]which is maybe the hardest thing to learn.
[21:44]Oh my gosh.
[21:46]Are you, I hope, planning on going to schools and talking?
[21:49]Yes, I am.
[21:50]Someone managing this for you?
[21:52]I will suggest that you do this.
[21:54]I really want to.
[21:55]I will say the one thing is,
[21:56]I'm like a super nervous speaker.
[21:58]I'm really good one on one,
[22:00]but like put me in front of like an audience
[22:02]and I start to like get very anxious,
[22:04]but I'm, I think I'm gonna start taking classes
[22:07]because I really do wanna start speaking to schools.
[22:09]And I've already got a few lined up.
[22:11]I think I'm going to Texas for the tweens read festival
[22:15]in Houston, Texas and then I'm going to Washington DC
[22:17]to speak at some schools.
[22:18]So I'm really excited about that.
[22:21]Just because I, again, like I just wanna go
[22:24]and tell kids like they're not alone
[22:26]and it's gonna be okay or it will be okay one day.
[22:29]Or you need to do like YouTube videos.
[22:31]Yeah, I've been thinking about that too.
[22:33]Because you could just do that at home
[22:35]and just have someone, you know, set up a trip.
[22:37]Like even just talking to you like this,
[22:39]like I wish we were, I wish this was being filmed
[22:41]because no, because I want people to see you
[22:43]talking about it.
[22:44]It's so compelling.
[22:45]Yeah.
[22:46]And if you could reach people that way
[22:47]and end the book, you know,
[22:49]and it'll stop, I'll stop giving you career ideas.
[22:51]No, I appreciate.
[22:52]I need all the help I can do.
[22:53]You don't need to get some music
[22:55]and I know it'll be great.
[22:57]So have you thought about this being a movie book?
[23:01]Have you like dabbled into that at all?
[23:03]Or do you not want that?
[23:04]I think I have mixed feelings on it
[23:06]because I feel like, I don't know.
[23:08]I know a couple like comic book writers
[23:10]for different comic books who became movies
[23:11]and comic book movies are notoriously awful except
[23:14]from Marvel that are amazing.
[23:16]But yeah, so I do worry about the great thing
[23:18]about writing is like you can write a story
[23:21]and you only have yourself to hold you accountable.
[23:24]And I guess your editor and your publisher
[23:25]will step in and be like, maybe don't do that.
[23:28]But with movies, it's like there's so many cooks
[23:30]in the kitchen that I worry about it.
[23:32]Like, like if relaunch became like a very Disney version,
[23:36]I would be very weirded out, but at the same time,
[23:40]I just think it needs to be honest
[23:41]and if there is a movie or TV show
[23:44]that was like on point and kind of really stuck to the message
[23:48]which is that, you know, horrible things happen,
[23:50]that you can survive those things.
[23:53]As long as it stuck to that, I think I'd be okay with it.
[23:55]Wow.
[23:56]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[23:59]Ooh, get ready to be rejected.
[24:01]I've logged over 1,000 rejections
[24:03]and I think the first 500 were Devas.
[24:07]Every single one was devastating.
[24:09]And then I can't remember who it was,
[24:11]but someone told me that they read online
[24:13]that someone looked at rejections as badges of honor
[24:16]and I was like, that's a great way to look at it.
[24:18]So rather than look at each rejection
[24:20]and someone say, no, you're worthless,
[24:22]you can't do this, look at it as,
[24:23]I'm putting myself out there and eventually
[24:26]I will trick someone to say yes.
[24:28]And it's true, I mean, because not every,
[24:31]when I wrote free lunch, I finished it like three years ago
[24:34]and working in publishing,
[24:36]like I took it out to all these agents and editors
[24:38]that I knew and I was like, surely someone will say yes.
[24:42]And they all said no.
[24:43]They're like, they're like, it's too heavy,
[24:45]it's too dark for the age group.
[24:47]They're like, if this was for adults,
[24:48]that this was young adult and they're like,
[24:51]but middle graders shouldn't read this stuff.
[24:52]And I was like, but you realize that middle graders
[24:55]live through this number one.
[24:56]And number two, we live in a country
[24:58]where middle graders are on YouTube
[25:00]and they're seeing things on the internet
[25:01]that are way above what they should be looking at.
[25:04]And also kids at this age are getting shot
[25:07]by police officers in the street
[25:08]and they're living through horrible things
[25:10]and with the internet, it's like they're seeing
[25:11]this stuff online.
[25:12]So at the very least, my book provides context
[25:15]and also hopefully an optimistic point of view.
[25:18]So why can't it be published?
[25:21]And everyone was just like, nope, too dark.
[25:23]So, oh my gosh.
[25:25]I'm very happy Norton took a chance on me.
[25:27]I am too.
[25:28]Yeah.
[25:29]Thank you Norton.
[25:30]Thank you Norton.
[25:32]Well, thank you, seriously.
[25:34]I know it wasn't easy to go through a relive,
[25:37]all of that stuff and write it.
[25:39]But as a reader for me, for all the kids,
[25:42]I mean, I know you say it's like dark
[25:44]even for the age group.
[25:45]I'm telling you my little kids,
[25:46]like the way you write is so captivating.
[25:50]I don't know.
[25:51]Yeah.
[25:51]Whatever I can do to help you get this book out of the world,
[25:54]let me know because I am such a huge fan
[25:57]and I am just rooting for you in every way.
[26:00]Yeah, much appreciated.
[26:01]I did try to put some fun things in there.
[26:03]So they're like the Christmas same,
[26:04]the Christmas tree same.
[26:06]No, it's not that.
[26:06]No, it's not that.
[26:08]Yes, and there, yes, they were laughing.
[26:11]Yeah.
[26:11]Oh, no, it's really.
[26:12]Because that's life.
[26:13]It's not dark all the time.
[26:14]Yes.
[26:15]I didn't mean to suggest that this whole book was not dark.
[26:17]No, that was, I think I was suggesting that.
[26:18]Okay.
[26:19]So I wanted to make sure.
[26:20]This whole book is not dark.
[26:22]There are some very funny scenes and some also
[26:24]just some very everyday struggle scenes,
[26:26]just anyone going through middle school.
[26:28]Yeah.
[26:29]I mean, that's it.
[26:29]Yeah.
[26:30]That's how we do it.
[26:31]Anyway, well, thank you for coming on mom's.
[26:32]Thank you for having me.
[26:34]Awesome.
[26:35]Take care.
[26:36]Thanks for listening to mom's.
[26:37]Don't have time to read books.
[26:39]You can follow me on Instagram at mom's.
[26:41]Don't have time to read books.
[26:43]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan
[26:44]for the textured sound for the sound editing.
[26:47]And thank you to morning moon productions
[26:49]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.
[26:51]Thanks for listening.
[26:52]You could always email me at zippy at zippyowens.com.