Jennifer Blecher, OUT OF PLACE
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the web-e-nominated podcast.
[0:12]Moms don't have time to read books.
[0:13]This episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books has been sponsored by Himalaya,
[0:18]the best app for discovering, listening, and organizing podcasts.
[0:22]Himalaya was nice enough to reach out and make me an editor's choice.
[0:25]So, now the responder, check them out at Himalaya.com or in the app store.
[0:30]I'm excited to be here today with Jennifer Blutcher, as in Fletcher,
[0:35]who is the author of Out of Place, her debut middle grade novel.
[0:40]A former lawyer, she now lives in Boston with her husband and their three daughters.
[0:45]So, welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Zibi.
[0:48]And I'm also here with my daughter, my older daughter, who's going to help us
[0:52]ask questions because she and I read this book together and we loved it.
[0:56]So, Jen, can you tell us what Out of Place is about and what inspired you to write it?
[1:00]Sure. So, Out of Place is the story of a 12-year-old girl named
[1:04]Cove, who lives on Martha's vineyard, which is an island off of Cape Cod with her mom.
[1:09]She's never left the island once in her entire life, which was fine with her until the day
[1:14]that her best friend, Nina, comes and tells Cove that Nina is going to be moving to New York City
[1:19]with Nina's two fathers. And in that moment, Cove's entire life feels like it's falling apart
[1:25]and she has no idea how to make it better. And it's a story about friendship and mistakes
[1:31]and big acts of courage. And yeah, it was so good. I should have read also the subtitle,
[1:38]which is, How Do You Find Where You Fit In? Yes, which is such a relevant question.
[1:44]I think it's something that people of every age struggle with. And I think it's particularly
[1:49]acute, maybe when you're 12 and also maybe when you're 40.
[1:55]So, when Phoebe and I were reading this, we got to the part about the girls barking at Cove.
[2:00]And Phoebe asked me, I put a little sticky at the time, like, why does she want to write such
[2:03]a mean book? And then when I was reading your website, so that that had actually happened to you,
[2:09]which I haven't even told Phoebe in, which was crazy. So tell me the whole thing, what happened
[2:14]with you? You kept it a secret for 25 years. Tell us this horrible story. Yes, okay. So the horrible
[2:20]story is that when I was in fifth grade, we moved cities and I started a new school. And the girls
[2:26]who were a year older than me decided that I looked like a dog. And because I looked like a dog,
[2:31]they were going to call me Rover and bark at me in the hallways. And it was shattering. I was
[2:37]new to the school and it was absolutely crushed me. And I did not tell a single person for 25 years
[2:43]until I actually told my mom a few years ago and she was furious. And the reason that I wrote about
[2:50]these mean girls is because I think that things like that do happen to kids, hopefully not to the
[2:56]extent that it happened to me and not to the extent that it does happen to COVID in the book. But I
[3:01]do think that it's important to recognize the challenges that kids face socially. When we
[3:06]draw them off at school, when we drive them off, I can't, when we throw them out into the world
[3:10]and the impact that it can have on them. And I like how in the book you have COVID befriend Jonah
[3:16]who works at the second-hand clothing store where she buys everything called sales. And he says
[3:22]to her, she's the only one she really tells about this. And he says to her, you know, you look
[3:27]nothing like a dog, right, COVID? Those girls, they're mean. They're just like mean girls everywhere,
[3:31]trying to bring down everyone around them to make themselves feel better. It's not about you,
[3:36]it's about them. And she doesn't really believe him, but it makes her feel better. So you didn't
[3:41]confide in anyone. You did have COVID tell somebody, do you think that helps? And why do you
[3:47]think girls do this? Not just girls. Why do people feel the need to do this? Like putting everybody
[3:52]down? And does it really help you? I mean, does it make them feel better? You think the mean
[3:56]girls? I don't know. So I think in the short term, it does make people feel better. And I do like
[4:01]that you did mention that there's mean people everywhere. There's mean girls. There's mean boys,
[4:06]there's mean adults. And I think that's just the way our world works, unfortunately. What do you
[4:11]think that we as parents can do about girls being really mean to other girls? Yeah. So that's
[4:17]that's a great question. I don't know if we can prevent the meanness. But one thing that I've
[4:23]really thought about both in writing this book and then also, you know, with my own therapist reading
[4:28]my bernet Brown who I love and I think everybody should read is I think that we have to recognize
[4:35]that as parents, as mothers, our job isn't necessarily to fix things. But our job is to sit with
[4:40]our kids when they're uncomfortable and let them be uncomfortable. Let them know that this is a
[4:46]really tough time, but they are going to get through it. I mean, as you know, I have three daughters
[4:51]and I've so there's so many times in my own house where I'm lying in bed with one of my daughters
[4:56]as she's sobbing because something horrible happened at school today, you know, and I'm sitting
[5:01]there and I'm rubbing her back and telling her it's going to be okay. And, you know, inside I'm like
[5:07]on fire. I mean, I am raging with fury. But as moms, I think we just, it's not always our job to
[5:15]intervene. Sometimes we just need to be there with them as they're feeling upset, letting them know
[5:20]that it's going to pass and using your judgment for when you do need to take it one step further.
[5:25]But it's not all the time. It's not all the time. Sometimes it's just listening.
[5:28]Yeah. I agree. That's good advice because I just want Phoebe to know. The reason I wrote about
[5:33]those mean girls is because I knew that Cove was strong enough to handle it. And Cove didn't know
[5:38]at the time. And I think a lot of kids don't know at the time, but I wanted anyone that reads the book
[5:44]to know that they are strong enough to handle these situations and that they will get through them
[5:47]just like Cove did. And so that's why you decided to take your experience and turn it into a novel.
[5:53]I didn't do it intentionally. I mean, I really sat down and I had this voice of this girl named
[5:58]Cove who lived on Martha's Vineyard and I knew her best friend had moved away. And I knew she was
[6:03]having a hard time with it. And that scene when I wrote out of place my kids were really little
[6:08]and I used to write really early in the morning before they woke up. And I remember writing that
[6:13]scene and it just like flowing from my fingers. So it wasn't intentional. But now looking back,
[6:19]I'm sure it was in my subconscious and it's something that I wanted to write about for a long time.
[6:23]For me, my head is super messy. I think all of ours are as moms, as women, as people working in
[6:31]the world. And the way I really process things and make sense of things is by writing them down.
[6:36]So that's a big reason why I think that scene appeared in the book. And I'm happy that it's there.
[6:40]I'm happy that kids get to read about it. By the way, for people listening, Jen looks nothing
[6:45]like a dog. It looks amazing and the fact that she would be picked on is just tragic. So
[6:53]no, there's no, there's no barking here. No barking here. Thank you. And I've seen pictures of
[6:58]myself when I was in fifth grade. I did not like like a dog, but either so not that that would
[7:02]be justified or anything, but it just doesn't aside. So Cove does decide to confide in Jonah, who's
[7:11]a correlate graduate who's working at Sal's the second hand clothing store, which is the store
[7:15]her mother and sister that she shop at rather than buying any new clothes. He takes an interest
[7:20]in Cove. And when she tells him the story, he says, you know, you look nothing like a dog,
[7:25]those girls, they're mean. They're just like mean girls everywhere trying to bring down
[7:28]everyone around them to make themselves feel better. It's not about you. It's about them.
[7:32]And she doesn't really believe him, but it does make her feel better. So,
[7:36]talk to me about the importance of confiding at someone.
[7:40]So the reason I love Jonah is because I don't think the person, if something like this is happening
[7:45]to you, the person doesn't need to be your mom, your dad, your teacher. I think it's important to look
[7:50]for a person that listens to you, that looks you in the eye, and that sees you as a whole person,
[7:56]and for Cove, that's Jonah. And he's young and he's awesome. And he's got his own life that
[8:02]he's out there living. And I'm so grateful that he was that person that could step in for Cove
[8:07]and really listen to her story. And I think, you know, one of the things, if something like this
[8:13]is going on, it can be really hard to talk about. And one of the things that I've been thinking about
[8:17]as I've been talking about this book is that it doesn't need to even be set out loud sometimes,
[8:22]you can leave someone a note on a table sometimes, you can just send them a text message,
[8:26]but just letting someone know what's going on is really important and can make a huge difference.
[8:30]I agree. I feel like things get worse when you keep them inside. It's like the middle of the night,
[8:34]how things seem worse when you're like in the middle of night, and then you wake up, and it's not
[8:38]as bad, like confiding and can help in that as well. So yes, do you have any interest in fashion
[8:45]design? A big part of your book was this show called Create You, which I feel like Phoebe wants to
[8:50]like dash out of here and go start watching where contestants have to, you know, design and get picked
[8:56]and everything. How did you come up with that show idea? Do you want to actually start that show,
[9:00]which would be pretty cool? Well, let's start with those questions. Sure. So when I was writing this
[9:05]book, my oldest daughter was learning to sew and loving it. And at the same time, we were stuck
[9:10]in one brutal Boston winter, where we were stuck inside the house for all these snow days,
[9:14]and we started watching Project Runway Jr., which is what the fictional show is based off of.
[9:21]And she doesn't really, it's a watch it that much anymore.
[9:26]Sorry to show you. So I love to sew. I love to knit, throw a craft at me, and I will fully embrace it.
[9:38]So I have made my kids close when they were little, and I've knitted them sweaters, and that
[9:43]came to a rapid end as soon as they were old enough to tell me what they actually wanted to wear.
[9:47]So anything creative does hold a special place in my heart. As I think it does coves,
[9:53]I mean, a lot of times in middle grade novels, what I've noticed is that people will try and give
[10:00]character trait. And this person will be super, super smart. And this person will be super
[10:04]into science. And this person will be an amazing athlete. And Cove is just a regular girl
[10:10]trying to get through her day. She does love to draw. She is creative, but it's not
[10:16]her defining characteristic that she moves through the world. But this was something that caught
[10:20]her eye. It caught Jonah's eye and it's something that they really bonded over and had a lot of fun
[10:25]watching together. One of the challenges in the show was if you were to design clothing
[10:30]that reflects your inside on the outside, what would that look like? Do you have an idea of what
[10:35]that would look like for you? This is a good question. So if I was going to design something that
[10:40]would represent who I was on the inside, well, first of all, it would be a dress and it would be
[10:45]like long and flowing and it would look amazing on whatever beach I was walking on. But I think the
[10:50]important part is that, you know, those leggings that are really popular where there's a lot of
[10:55]stuff going on with the leggings. There's emojis and all kinds of different patterns.
[10:59]Phoebe's wearing some pretty awesome star leggings right now, which I totally love. I think the
[11:04]fabric that my dress is sewn from would be really busy. There would be hearts and there would be
[11:10]arrows and there would be puppies and there would be skulls and there would be fear and there would
[11:16]be envy and there would be all kinds of things and it would be really messy and I would wear it
[11:20]on the beach and just be super proud because that's actually how I do feel on the inside.
[11:25]I think it's the way a lot of us feel on the inside, no matter how we present on the outside.
[11:29]So if I was going to be totally honest about my outfit, that's probably what it would look like,
[11:34]a little chaotic. I feel like my outfit would have like a spinny top on the outside of a skirt,
[11:40]like spinning, spinning, spinning. I feel like so nice. Everything's going so fast and it's like
[11:45]my brain is like spinning. I just thought they could slow it down. Yeah, it's like anyway.
[11:49]Yeah. Yeah. One interesting thing is that you painted such a specific portrait of Cove's mom
[11:55]as this sort of modern day hippie, I don't want to use the wrong labels, but incredibly environmentally
[12:02]aware to a pretty extreme extent. So she doesn't want to leave the island. She won't let
[12:07]Cove wear commercially manufactured clothing basically, not to mention all the eating
[12:12]requirements, all of that. Do you think that as parents, we can take our beliefs to such an
[12:18]extreme that it can actually harm our kids or make them feel alienated? I think there's completely
[12:23]an extreme that people do take it to. I think Cove's mom, she's clearly a little bit of the villain
[12:28]in this book, although she, the thing I love about Cove's mom is I think she comes from such a good
[12:33]place. I mean, her intentions are so pure. She, in my opinion, is way too restrictive and way too
[12:41]but at the same time, as a mom myself, I absolutely can see where she's coming from.
[12:48]You know, for example, my daughter Ella, who's Phoebe's age, who's in fifth grade,
[12:52]desperately wants a cell phone and she'll ask me for a cell phone and I will look at her and my
[12:58]voice will get super deep and I will say Ella, in our family, we don't get cell phones until
[13:03]we're 13 years old, as if it's this grand, you know, edicts that has been passed down from God
[13:09]like through the generations, you know, like this will not happen, not your family, but really
[13:16]don't tell her this Phoebe, but what it is, it's my husband and I late at night looking into
[13:20]each other saying, what do you think we should do? I don't know. What do you think we should do? And I
[13:25]think that's a situation. I mean, Cove's mom does take it to an extreme. She doesn't let Cove
[13:29]ever leave the island and she has her reasons and in my mind, I know what they are. But I think
[13:34]we're all really trying to do the best we can as moms in the particular moment. I have a lot
[13:39]more empathy for that kind of situation when it's sort of behavior as opposed to something like
[13:46]medical or the physical health of a child. I have a lot harder time in those situations,
[13:52]putting myself in those parent shoes, but for someone like Cove's mom, I mean, she does have a
[13:57]little place in my heart even though she really does need to let Cove grow up a little bit.
[14:02]And it was so great how her best friend Nina had two debts and it was just like as any family,
[14:08]it's just like there was no attention paid to it. Just in other words, it was so natural,
[14:12]right? And this is the way life is, right? There are all different types and shapes of families
[14:17]and it should be in fiction more often. I feel like it is not. Maybe I'm not reading the right,
[14:21]I don't read that much middle age fiction, but I haven't seen in anything I've read with Phoebe,
[14:25]have you seen that before? I mean, no. So I don't know. I thought that was great. What tell me about
[14:30]your decision making about them? So when I started writing out of place, I knew, I mean,
[14:35]Cove's voice just came to me. I know it was going to be a middle grade novel narrated in the
[14:39]first person by 12 year old girl. And what I really wanted to do is write a very modern contemporary
[14:45]middle grade novel. I wanted to reflect what my kids see in the world and what I see in the world.
[14:50]And at least where we live in Boston and where they go to school, there are so many
[14:55]same sex parents. And it's not a conversation. It's, you know, is Jane's Papa or her dad going
[15:02]to pick her up from the play date? Is Susie's mom or mama going to meet us out for ice cream? And
[15:09]I really wanted Nina's situation having two fathers to be a complete non issue. I wanted it just
[15:17]to be about her family as a loving family that's trying the best they can the way
[15:22]every most other families that we see are. So I hope it came across that way. Yeah. And I didn't
[15:28]want it. I didn't even want it to be commented on by Cove or by by anyone. And they have this
[15:34]great family game where they start drawing it. And at the dinner table and they pass the drawing
[15:39]after a little bit and add on everybody adds on till they have a complete drawing. Do you do that
[15:43]at your family table or where did that come from? I wish no. I have no idea where that came from.
[15:50]I don't plot. I rarely thinks things through in advance. I really write in the quiet in the early
[15:57]morning. And I just remember writing that scene and being like, of course, this is what Nina's
[16:01]dads would do. They're artistic. They're creative. They're loving. And they are trying their best
[16:05]just like Cove's mom is, although, you know, maybe they're doing a little bit better of a job.
[16:11]In that regard, different. No judgment. No judgment.
[16:15]On your website, you said that when you write, you feel sparkly and glittery and alive,
[16:20]even though as a child, you weren't the type who would set off confetti bombs of excitement.
[16:24]So when did you realize how great writing made you feel? I think I've always known how great
[16:29]writing makes me feel. I think what happened for me was the more complicated my life became,
[16:34]the more I had to write about. So I remember very clearly writing a lot when I was pregnant with
[16:40]my first daughter. And I remember writing even more when I was pregnant with my second daughter.
[16:45]And then I had my third daughter. And it was really the only way I could keep a hold on what I really
[16:52]wanted to accomplish in sort of this artistic realm. And it's just really snowballed for me. And
[16:59]I've realized that it's just absolutely the way I love to express myself. I think I express myself
[17:04]much better on the page than I do verbally. And it makes me feel really, really complete to
[17:09]write, and to write fiction, and to tell these stories. And I feel very grateful that I'm able to
[17:14]do it. And we were chatting before. And you said, you hope to be writing this kind of book for a long
[17:19]time. Like this is what you love doing this, is that your long term plan or what you love to do.
[17:24]Yeah, I'm not loved. I would love to write so many of these books. It's funny because
[17:29]before I had been writing a lot of adult fiction. And I still definitely play around with adult
[17:34]fiction. I mean, there's just so much material out there. But I think what it comes
[17:39]down to is when I've taken a step back, I love the voice of middle grade. I feel like middle grade
[17:45]is just the core of life. You know, in middle grade, there's a lot of issues that you're not
[17:50]necessarily going to write about, which leaves you with just the most wonderful parts. Friendship,
[17:57]family, love, finding where you fit in, finding who you are. And it's funny because when I do
[18:03]write for adults, I'm writing about the exact same stuff. I mean, I'm writing about friendships
[18:09]between moms as opposed to friendships between girls. I'm writing about relationships between
[18:13]adults as opposed to parents and children. But it's all the same. And this middle grade space,
[18:20]it's such an honor. I mean, I cannot wait to be able to talk to kids about this book. I mean,
[18:24]I want to talk to BB about this book and hear everything. So we'll see. This is a really nice space
[18:30]to be in. That's great. So do you have any advice to a middle grader? Let's start there.
[18:36]Yeah. So let's say another 12 year old girl or boy who's out there just really struggling,
[18:42]feeling on the outskirts of things, not knowing really what to do next. Yeah. I mean, I would say
[18:47]don't do what I did. I would say tell somebody like we're talking about before in any way that
[18:52]you feel comfortable. It doesn't have to be a parent. It doesn't have to be a teacher. There are
[18:56]a lot of adults in this world that really just want to lend a hand. And it's not something that you
[19:00]should have to sit with on your own. It's a lot of it's overwhelming and it can feel like it's sinking
[19:06]there's no reason for it to be like that. And there's adults that want to help and there's books
[19:11]that you can read and you are not alone. Reach out and tell somebody. And also read your book.
[19:16]Yes. And then out of place and you will and you will see what Cove goes through and ultimately
[19:21]how she comes out the other end. They should read this in schools. You know, they should be like
[19:24]the required summer book. That would be awesome right? Yeah. Yeah. We have to campaign. What's it?
[19:29]And choose. It wouldn't be good to know. Yeah. And how about any advice to aspiring authors?
[19:34]Yeah. So my advice to aspiring author, which I'm sure we heard at some point,
[19:38]was I'm sure I heard at some point from Danny Shapiro who we both absolutely adore,
[19:43]is when I write, when I write those really messy first drafts that are confusing and feel like
[19:49]they may never turn into anything, I'm only writing for one person. So for everything I write,
[19:54]the person changes. But when I sit down at my desk, it's only one person that's ever going to read
[20:00]This book.
[20:00]So for out of place, it was one of my daughters.
[20:04]And later on, when you get to editing
[20:06]and there's other people involved,
[20:07]you can sort of think more broadly,
[20:09]but when you're trying to just get the words on the page,
[20:11]just be in the room by yourself
[20:12]with one particular reader.
[20:14]Interesting.
[20:15]I love it.
[20:16]Well, thank you so much for coming on,
[20:17]Mom.
[20:18]Don't have time to read books.
[20:19]Thank you so much for having me.
[20:21]Oh, it's so fun.
[20:22]Thanks for coming, Phoebe.
[20:23]Thanks for coming, Phoebe.
[20:24]Phoebe, any parting words about the book?
[20:26]Yeah.
[20:27]Did you like it?
[20:28]I really like this book.
[20:30]Thanks, Phoebe.
[20:31]All right.
[20:31]Thanks, Phoebe.
[20:33]Bye, guys.
[20:34]Thanks again to today's sponsor of Mom's Don't Have Time
[20:36]to Read Books, Himalaya, the best app
[20:38]for discovering listening and organizing podcasts,
[20:41]Himalaya.com.
[20:42]Thanks for listening to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[20:44]You can follow me on Instagram at
[20:46]Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[20:49]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[20:51]for the sound editing.
[20:52]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[20:54]for providing this fantastic intro and outram Music.
[20:57]Thanks for listening.
[20:58]You could always email me at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.