Lauren Gershell, THAT'S WHAT FRENEMIES ARE FOR
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the webinominated podcast.
[0:12]Moms don't have time to read books.
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[0:31]I'm so excited to be interviewing Lauren Grishell today.
[0:34]We're here together in the Hamptons.
[0:36]It's such a lovely day.
[0:37]So this is super fun for me.
[0:38]Lauren is the co-author along with Sophie Littlefield of That's What Friend of Me's Are for,
[0:43]a novel, a graduate of Columbia University from which she has a BA and a law degree.
[0:48]Lauren currently lives in New York City where she was born and raised and this is her first book.
[0:52]So welcome to Lauren.
[0:53]Thank you.
[0:54]Congratulations on your first novel.
[0:56]Thank you.
[0:57]So can you tell listeners what that's what friend of me's are for?
[1:00]Is about and how you and your co-author Sophie decided to do this book?
[1:04]Sure.
[1:05]So the book is about a woman who lives in New York City who has it all.
[1:10]And she has everything she thinks she's ever wanted.
[1:13]And she puts a lot of importance on her own social capital.
[1:17]And she starts to feel as though her star is fading.
[1:21]And she takes on a young spin instructor and in a very like pig million fashion
[1:28]decides that she's going to make her into a superstar.
[1:31]Not necessarily under the kindness of her own heart, but to regain some of the
[1:36]social capital that she thinks she's lost.
[1:39]And the book has kind of an interesting story in how it came to be about, which is that I had an
[1:44]idea and I'd never written a book before.
[1:47]And I reached out to a childhood friend who's a literary agent.
[1:51]And I said, I have this idea.
[1:53]What do you think of it?
[1:54]And she said, I really like that idea.
[1:56]And I said, I'd love to do it with somebody else.
[1:59]I feel like I need someone to work with me and write it with me so that it can be as good
[2:04]as it can possibly be because I've never written before.
[2:08]And she reached out to some other agents that she knew.
[2:11]And that's how Sophie and I started writing together.
[2:14]So it was basically a blind date.
[2:16]And it was also love at first sight.
[2:17]It was over the phone.
[2:18]And within two minutes of talking to Sophie, I knew she was the one.
[2:22]She completely got me.
[2:24]She got what I wanted to do with the book.
[2:25]And we wrote the book together.
[2:27]And it was a really wonderful experience.
[2:29]Wow.
[2:30]That's amazing.
[2:30]I didn't realize that.
[2:31]Yeah, that's awesome.
[2:32]I know people think we were friends.
[2:33]We actually didn't meet until we'd been writing for almost a year.
[2:36]No way.
[2:36]Because she lives in California.
[2:38]Wow.
[2:38]I actually, when I, before I had kids, I go straight to book with these two authors who I
[2:43]never met until after the book came out.
[2:45]It can work.
[2:46]People, I think, have this vision that we sat at a desk together writing,
[2:49]but that is definitely not how it happens.
[2:50]So how did you do it?
[2:51]Well, I'm a Luddite.
[2:53]And so we wrote the book in Microsoft Word with track changes.
[2:57]Because that's what I had done as a lawyer when I wrote briefs.
[3:00]And that's what I had been used to doing.
[3:01]And Google Docs was really intimidating to me.
[3:04]So it was literally drafts back and forth with red lines and edits.
[3:09]And then in the last few weeks, we'd use Google Docs here and there.
[3:13]And we were both very stressed about it.
[3:15]So when you were using Microsoft Word, would you write a chapter?
[3:19]And then she would write a chapter.
[3:20]or like, how do you actually write with somebody else?
[3:22]Chunks is what I would say.
[3:24]Like, we would write chunks and then send it to each other.
[3:27]There were certain things that were more my area.
[3:29]There were certain things that were more her area.
[3:32]It was just a lot of back and forth.
[3:33]And the time difference actually worked really well.
[3:36]Because I would work first thing in the morning when my kids went to school.
[3:40]And I would then send her something as she was waking up in California.
[3:44]And it worked very, very well.
[3:46]The time difference, which it first made me nervous.
[3:48]It was a little bit hard for phone calls.
[3:49]But it was great for writing.
[3:51]Wow.
[3:52]But, and did you have the whole thing mapped out ahead of time?
[3:55]Like, did you have the chapter?
[3:56]Yeah, we did.
[3:57]We actually, we sold the book on a partial, which means that we wrote 100 pages and sold it.
[4:03]And when we sold those 100 pages, we had a detailed outline,
[4:06]which we then completely deviated from as we wrote the entire first draft.
[4:11]And then the first draft is very, very different from the final book,
[4:16]because there was a major murder in it.
[4:19]And then that murder became an accidental death.
[4:21]And then we took out the death completely.
[4:24]So there was, there was a lot of deviating from the, from the initial outline.
[4:28]Wow.
[4:29]Yes.
[4:30]It's so neat to be able to write in the same way as someone else.
[4:33]Like, from reading, you wouldn't know.
[4:35]She had a major influence, I mean, I think that that was also something.
[4:38]Sophie has written numerous books.
[4:40]I mean, she's lost count at this point.
[4:41]And she's goes written.
[4:42]She's written under her name.
[4:43]She's written under another name.
[4:45]And that was an incredible experience.
[4:47]Because she's a master at what she does.
[4:49]So I know that if I had written it alone or written it with anybody else,
[4:53]it wouldn't have been as good as it was because of her.
[4:56]So she's very influential in my own writing.
[4:58]So when you went to your childhood friend and said, I have an idea, what was that?
[5:03]The original idea was a story about women's friendships surrounding a fitness studio.
[5:10]And initially, I had thought about the fitness part being more prominently featured in the book.
[5:17]Maybe telling it from multiple perspectives, somebody who works at the studios,
[5:21]sees everything going down.
[5:23]And that was the original idea.
[5:26]And then once we sat down to write, obviously, that is not what the book became.
[5:30]But that was the original thought.
[5:32]I had one time I was in spin class.
[5:34]And I was like, it would be so neat if each chat, like, it almost like a movie, right?
[5:38]Like, what's going on with her?
[5:40]That was the original concept.
[5:42]Like, having somebody who worked there had, you know, have a perspective and somebody
[5:46]who goes there and then someone who's an outsider.
[5:48]But ultimately, that's not what we wrote.
[5:51]No, it's great what you have.
[5:52]No, no, no, but maybe, but that was the original plan, I think.
[5:55]And are you a big spinner?
[5:57]Because a lot of this is around spin.
[5:58]I am.
[5:59]I love to spin.
[6:00]It's the only form of exercise that I have ever found that I actually enjoy.
[6:04]I actually have an article coming out soon about having taken over 2,000 classes at Seoul cycle
[6:10]over the last 10 years.
[6:11]I guess.
[6:11]I know.
[6:12]I don't know if it's something to be proud of or embarrassed by, but it's the truth.
[6:15]I do.
[6:16]I love love spinning.
[6:18]Are you like a person who follows certain instructors or do you go?
[6:21]I do.
[6:22]I do.
[6:23]You're a devotee.
[6:24]I'm a devotee.
[6:25]Awesome.
[6:26]That's so cool.
[6:27]Wow.
[6:28]I don't know.
[6:29]I think it's great to be able to stick to anything.
[6:30]You have to see, like, I mean, when I became obsessed with it, you know, 10 years ago,
[6:35]I think most people expected that, you know, within a few months or a few years, I'd
[6:38]be over it.
[6:39]But like, I'm not.
[6:40]I don't do it quite as much as I used to.
[6:44]So do you get something from Seoul cycle over 2,000 classes?
[6:47]Like, are there little awards?
[6:48]Are they going to bring out one of the cakes that they were like?
[6:51]They're very, you know, they're really good about recognizing their riders.
[6:55]So birthday is big milestone rides.
[6:58]They do try to make you feel special, but no, you don't get like, you know, free class
[7:01]or anything.
[7:03]I wish.
[7:04]In the book, you discuss personal branding.
[7:06]As Julia, who's the main character, takes on this newbie spinning instructor named
[7:10]Tatum as her pet project.
[7:12]And she says, building a personal brand, you have
[7:14]to be strategic and disciplined.
[7:16]The first step is to identify your customer.
[7:18]And after that, everything you do, every decision you make should be focused on her.
[7:22]Which I think you do a great job of then crafting the brand of this woman who maybe
[7:27]she picked around women.
[7:28]But it remains to me being, you know, when you think about this book and the branding
[7:33]of this book, the who are you thinking is the ideal consumer of this book.
[7:36]I have a sitting, the book is targeted at women.
[7:39]I hope men will read it too, but I'm realistic that I think it's really a book mostly
[7:43]for women.
[7:44]I mean, I think the answer to that question is twofold.
[7:46]It's for women or people who want fun, be treated that they can read quickly without,
[7:52]you know, getting depressed without getting lost in the book in the sense of having to
[7:56]go back and, you know, it's not a difficult book to read and it's a fun book.
[8:01]But I also think, I mean, we tried to place within the books some themes that were a little
[8:06]bit more serious and a little bit more important.
[8:09]And so it's ideal for book clubs.
[8:12]It's ideal for groups of friends who want to read a book together and then talk about
[8:15]it afterward.
[8:16]But it's also a fun juicy beetroot.
[8:18]I agree.
[8:19]It was awesome.
[8:20]Thank you.
[8:21]I was actually struck reading the book by how much airtime and I don't know what the
[8:24]equivalent booktime I guess you gave to Benilda, the nanny character.
[8:29]I feel like she was really one of the central characters in the book and you were sort
[8:33]of always wondering, like, what's up with Benilda?
[8:36]I don't know.
[8:37]You just never really know.
[8:38]So I, and she almost becomes another friend of me in her own right, in a way.
[8:42]So I just wanted to know about that decision to include her as such a central character.
[8:46]Well, I think Benilda is like almost the moral compass of the book.
[8:51]In the sense of she is watching Julia, the main character and make some very questionable
[8:56]decisions and get herself into a lot of bad situations.
[9:01]And Benilda is watching and judging, but also cares.
[9:06]And it's almost what I would expect a reader to be going through themselves.
[9:11]They know this woman is a good person.
[9:13]They want to throttle her at times.
[9:15]They think she is awful at times, but hopefully they also like her and people are flawed
[9:22]and she's flawed.
[9:23]And so Benilda to me is a voice of reason.
[9:26]If she becomes a friend of me, it's only because of Julia.
[9:29]I mean, she's not coming at Julia as a friend of me.
[9:32]And so it says a lot about Julia, how she treats her and how their situation is resolved.
[9:37]So Benilda is a moral compass.
[9:40]So Julia, let's talk about her likeability for a minute.
[9:43]Okay, what's up, topic?
[9:45]So she is like a blatant social climber yet for lack of a better word.
[9:49]So in the beginning, like she, for example, you set it up with her friend, family friend
[9:53]Janet Erickson, who wrote the letter helping her get paid to her daughter into the
[9:58]school.
[9:59]And once she gets in.
[10:00]to the school, she's like, no, no, no.
[10:02]Social liability, not gonna go there.
[10:04]So she's very much aware of her status
[10:07]and is like very strategic and all that.
[10:10]You wrote, I felt bad for the way I did this about,
[10:12]this is now Julia talking about Janet.
[10:15]She said, I felt bad for the way I treated her,
[10:17]but now wasn't the time for me to be taking chances.
[10:20]I sometimes thought of my life like a stock ticker,
[10:22]the graph line trending up or down
[10:24]with my social status, throw a winter solstice party
[10:26]that ended up all over Instagram, the line ticked up,
[10:29]lose the PTA election, it slipped back down.
[10:31]Can Spicuous absence from the Hampton scene all summer?
[10:34]It remained to be seen, how far my stock would fall.
[10:36]So are we supposed to like Julia?
[10:39]I don't know.
[10:39]So that's been amongst early readers
[10:42]that has been a hot topic of,
[10:44]is Julia likable, is she not, doesn't matter?
[10:47]And when Sophie and I were writing this book,
[10:50]something important to us was to not have a protagonist
[10:54]who was angelic.
[10:56]I think that I prefer books
[10:58]where the characters are complicated
[11:00]and real people are complicated
[11:01]and real people make mistakes
[11:02]and real people sometimes lose focus.
[11:06]And they lose focus on what's important in their lives
[11:08]and what's important to them
[11:10]and they can get caught up in other things.
[11:12]And so I like Julia.
[11:14]There are people who've loved the book who hate Julia.
[11:18]And I think that that's one of the many things
[11:20]that people can talk about when reading the book.
[11:22]But we're not supposed to hate Julia,
[11:24]but we are certainly supposed to feel frustrated
[11:27]by her dislike her at times,
[11:30]but possibly even identify with her on some level.
[11:33]She's very, very privileged
[11:35]and she doesn't necessarily appreciate that privilege
[11:38]in the way that she should,
[11:40]but anybody reading the book understands
[11:42]what it's like to sometimes take things for granted.
[11:45]And I like her.
[11:47]I like her most of the time.
[11:48]All right.
[11:49]Yeah, that's good.
[11:51]It's a two-spin.
[11:52]Are you better?
[11:53]I mean, I would hope so.
[11:54]I like all the characters in the book.
[11:55]I like Tatum.
[11:56]I like Julia.
[11:57]I like them all.
[11:58]I mean, maybe not the,
[11:59]like some of the real frenemies,
[12:01]but the main characters,
[12:03]I think all their moments where you like them,
[12:06]you agree with them, you disagree with them, you hate them.
[12:08]Well, one thing you did so well is they're so real.
[12:11]I mean, I feel like I could go to a cocktail party tonight
[12:15]and be like, oh, that's them.
[12:17]Yes, no totally.
[12:18]And I know you didn't face them on any particular people.
[12:20]No, but so.
[12:22]Well, I won't actually see them tonight.
[12:24]But no, they are figments of our imaginations.
[12:26]They did a really good job of making them into actual pseudo
[12:30]people.
[12:32]So Julia and her husband, James,
[12:34]get in a fight because James has all these legal issues,
[12:37]which crop up throughout the book,
[12:38]not to give anything away.
[12:39]But when she starts complaining about how his legal issues
[12:42]are affecting her social standing,
[12:45]the sort of is reminding me of,
[12:46]are you watching big little lies?
[12:47]I watched the first thing that I watched the second thing.
[12:49]Okay, you have to start watching
[12:50]because I was waiting till they were all out
[12:52]so I could binge them.
[12:53]Okay, well, after, I think they're now all at last week.
[12:56]Okay, anyway, anyway, she says she starts complaining
[13:00]to James about how this is so unpleasant for her.
[13:04]And he says that she should ignore the nasty responses
[13:06]that she's been getting about it.
[13:07]And she thinks to herself, well, easy for him to say,
[13:10]James had a black belt in ignoring what other people thought,
[13:13]but he wouldn't last a week in my shoes.
[13:15]These are my friends, James, the people I see every day.
[13:17]And then he tells her, you know,
[13:19]if you did have a job or even a goddamn hobby,
[13:21]maybe you wouldn't go around acting
[13:23]like any of this shit matters.
[13:24]So then I was wondering, like, do you think that's it?
[13:27]Do you think that women who don't have jobs and hobbies
[13:30]use their social world as their main measure of self-worth?
[13:34]Or is it just people who are sort of vulnerable
[13:36]to this particular social game,
[13:39]regardless of whether they're at home or not?
[13:42]All of that.
[13:43]I mean, I think that there's a few things.
[13:45]I think one question in the book is why do women
[13:49]or some women feel like their social capital is so important?
[13:52]And is that something that's their fault?
[13:53]Is it what society has placed upon them?
[13:57]I think that it is hard for women,
[14:01]whether they work outside of the home or don't
[14:03]to find what makes them feel fulfilled, separate from their jobs,
[14:09]whether their job is their family
[14:11]or their job is their family and a job outside the home.
[14:14]And actually, I know you're familiar with it.
[14:16]One of my closest friends has a book coming out
[14:19]in October called Fair Play.
[14:21]Her name is Yivrodsky.
[14:22]And she writes a lot about unicorns space.
[14:26]And the importance of women, what does that mean?
[14:29]Well, what it really means is women need to have something.
[14:32]And it could be anything.
[14:33]It could be knitting.
[14:35]It could be reading.
[14:35]It could be working out.
[14:37]It could be gardening.
[14:37]It doesn't matter what it is.
[14:39]Women need things that fulfill them outside
[14:43]of their familial responsibilities.
[14:45]And they need to be given the time to do them.
[14:48]And they have to be told it's okay to take that time.
[14:52]And I think that that comment from James,
[14:55]it sort of goes back to James' comment,
[14:57]which is that Julia's trying to have a hobby.
[15:00]She's a little misguided about what it is.
[15:03]But the idea that our women's hobby is even valued.
[15:06]And so I like James a lot.
[15:08]We want James to be a wonderful guy.
[15:11]But he doesn't quite get her.
[15:13]And he doesn't quite understand her.
[15:14]And he doesn't quite understand her life.
[15:16]And I think that that's something that many women can relate to.
[15:20]And so that's one of my favorite kind of conversations
[15:24]that's come from the book.
[15:25]You include Instagram a lot in the story,
[15:28]which I thought was very appropriate given.
[15:33]Given the mental energy, it takes up in my own mind.
[15:38]So I appreciated it since I've been way too much
[15:41]to my Instagram.
[15:42]Add to the Owens.
[15:43]Add to the Owens.
[15:45]And you're just kidding.
[15:46]So you include the role of the Instagram
[15:48]plays in today's mom relationships a lot.
[15:51]And you're commenting a lot.
[15:52]And Julia's always noticing how many followers so-and-so
[15:55]has pictures of who's out and about,
[15:57]with who she has an issue with her friend Grace.
[15:59]And it's like, well, she was just posting about me
[16:01]at the Central Park Conservancy luncheon.
[16:03]Hashtag best friends forever.
[16:07]I totally related to this, too.
[16:08]There's one time I saw these moms at my daughter's school
[16:11]like out and about.
[16:12]And I was like, arms around each other at some dinner.
[16:15]And I was like, yeah.
[16:16]And I was like, I wouldn't have been able to go.
[16:18]It doesn't matter.
[16:19]Like I felt so left out.
[16:21]And I was like, this is terrible.
[16:22]I'm like in my 40s.
[16:23]And it just doesn't ever end.
[16:26]It does not ever end.
[16:27]And I think that it's a huge, I love Instagram and Facebook.
[16:31]I think that it's allowed me to stay in touch with people
[16:34]that I would have lost touch with.
[16:35]I know what they do.
[16:36]I know where they live.
[16:37]I know the names of their kids.
[16:38]I like that.
[16:40]But it can be dangerous.
[16:41]And we're often so focused on the dangers for our children
[16:44]because I have a 13-year-old daughter.
[16:45]So I'm very aware of those dangers.
[16:48]But it can also be dangerous for us
[16:50]because it's an alternate reality.
[16:53]And people can get very caught up in thinking it's reality.
[16:57]And the other thing, Afro, what you just said,
[16:59]is that particularly, I think, for adults,
[17:02]you get to see all the things you're not invited to.
[17:04]You get to see all the things you've been left out of.
[17:06]And every dinner party, every wedding,
[17:08]every cocktail gathering.
[17:11]And it can be very, very damaging and hurtful.
[17:15]And it can certainly mess with your mind,
[17:17]which is what I wanted to capture with Julia.
[17:20]I do think that it can also be really positive.
[17:23]One of my favorite things about having written this book
[17:25]is that I love to read.
[17:27]And I have connected on Instagram with all these other people
[17:29]who love to read and love to talk about books.
[17:32]And I have a few friends in real life who are like that,
[17:35]but not a million.
[17:37]And I've loved that part of Instagram,
[17:40]which was a whole new part of Instagram for me
[17:42]in the last year or so.
[17:43]But I think that the conversations about social media
[17:47]are often focused on the kids.
[17:48]And maybe it to be focused more on the women
[17:51]than they're 14's totally.
[17:52]I need to get an Instagram intervention.
[17:55]I know.
[17:55]I think many of us do.
[17:57]My screen time, they're like, it's gone up.
[17:59]It's like 20%.
[18:00]I'm like, again, it went up again last week.
[18:03]Oh my God, how is this even possible?
[18:05]I'm always complaining about what I have time for
[18:07]and what I don't, but I don't know.
[18:08]But I like it.
[18:09]I love it too.
[18:10]I love it.
[18:11]And I feel like actually, I am like strengthening
[18:14]relationships on Instagram.
[18:16]And I love being able to be like, oh, somebody's got
[18:20]on the best side of this.
[18:20]And I can be like, yeah, amazing.
[18:22]It's like, I love that.
[18:23]And I love it too.
[18:24]But it can really be good.
[18:26]I know.
[18:27]I don't know.
[18:27]So there's also no way to do it any faster.
[18:30]No.
[18:31]It drives me bananas.
[18:32]Like you can't be even more efficient
[18:34]because then you missed stuff.
[18:35]You missed stuff.
[18:36]And you missed like your best friends,
[18:38]post about her child being born.
[18:39]Like that's the problem.
[18:40]Yeah, exactly.
[18:42]But the thing that I didn't know,
[18:44]which I feel like some people,
[18:45]maybe not as people listening right now,
[18:47]but like Instagram is sort of a requirement for authors now.
[18:50]Like you have to be on.
[18:52]And you have to really be available.
[18:53]Well, yes.
[18:54]I mean, I think that some authors tend to choose
[18:57]their social media platform.
[18:59]And for many of them, it seems to be Twitter.
[19:01]Yeah, Twitter is.
[19:01]And I tried to, I was already on Instagram.
[19:04]I already loved Instagram as a stay-at-home mom.
[19:06]And with the book, I tried to get on Twitter.
[19:08]I mean, I am on Twitter,
[19:10]but I literally don't know what to tweet.
[19:12]Instagram is for whatever reason more my thing.
[19:15]And I, again, I love talking about books
[19:18]and seeing what people are reading
[19:19]and seeing the pretty covers.
[19:21]And I love it.
[19:22]Cover reveal.
[19:23]I love like that.
[19:24]And I think it's really fun.
[19:26]I mean, I think not.
[19:27]Maybe some authors feel like it's a requirement
[19:30]of the job that maybe isn't their favorite.
[19:32]I actually really like it.
[19:33]I love seeing what people have to say about the book.
[19:36]Usually, I hope they only tag me when they've liked it.
[19:38]I love it.
[19:39]I love seeing what they've taken from the book.
[19:41]I love seeing their photos of the book
[19:43]and where they pose it.
[19:44]Like, I don't know.
[19:45]I just, I'm really enjoying being part
[19:47]of that community on Instagram.
[19:49]Yeah.
[19:50]I think it's really fun.
[19:51]Yeah.
[19:52]I love it.
[19:52]I love it.
[19:53]I love it.
[19:54]But it's definitely a...
[19:55]I've gotten so many great book recommendations too.
[19:56]Yeah, it'd be too.
[19:56]And I feel like if you see certain people
[19:59]all posted.
[20:00]about one book.
[20:01]Exactly.
[20:02]Then you want to read it.
[20:03]Then I want to read it.
[20:04]Which is, well, maybe that's just pathetic of me.
[20:06]I don't know.
[20:07]Because it helps me like, no, what is out there and what's supposed to be really good.
[20:11]I just interviewed Courtney mom who wrote Touch and has a new book called So Like Right.
[20:15]And I did it with Nicola Harrison at Barry and Co Bookstore.
[20:17]And she had this whole thing about being a good literary citizen.
[20:20]And how it's important for authors and everyone, but in particular authors to be good
[20:25]literary citizens.
[20:26]And one of the things is to promote books that come out and every Instagram, every
[20:31]picture of a galley or whatever helps.
[20:34]I agree with that.
[20:35]There have been some books that I have loved that I read this summer.
[20:38]And even before I wrote a book, people were often asking me for book recommendations.
[20:43]So I do try like maybe once a week to post a book that I have read and loved.
[20:48]Just for my friends to see, but also for the people who follow me who are readers to see
[20:52]what I've been reading and really loving.
[20:53]I read a lot.
[20:54]So I can't post every book I read, but the really, really special ones I definitely try
[20:58]to promote.
[20:59]And I do it out.
[21:00]That's what I use Twitter for, actually, because I'm like, I don't know.
[21:04]That's the only thing I can think of to post about on Twitter.
[21:06]So I for my own book is other books.
[21:08]I did this podcast on this library podcast.
[21:11]And I was saying how much I love recommending books too.
[21:13]Just like you.
[21:14]I mean, love it.
[21:15]I feel like every big friend group has one person in the group who they come to for book
[21:18]recommendations.
[21:19]I feel like we are those people.
[21:20]I'm definitely that person.
[21:21]And I have a friend who, for example, mostly only reads thrillers.
[21:24]And I recommended a book to her last summer outside of her normal genre.
[21:28]And she's still talking about it.
[21:29]And she's still incredulous that she loved the book as much as she did.
[21:33]And it's just, it's so cool.
[21:35]I think that's like the...
[21:36]I know.
[21:37]I know.
[21:38]That's my greatest accomplishment of last year.
[21:39]Oh, I feel.
[21:40]I feel like when I recommend something and people love it.
[21:43]And then they're like, thank you.
[21:44]That was amazing.
[21:45]I take, like, so much joy and pride.
[21:47]I feel.
[21:48]I know.
[21:49]And it's great.
[21:50]Really.
[21:51]Like, of all the things in life.
[21:52]But for me, and I guess for you, I'm glad you can relate.
[21:55]It's like...
[21:56]I'm so excited.
[21:57]I'm excited.
[21:58]Because I read it and loved it.
[21:59]Some people are good at matchmaking.
[22:01]You know, like, I have a few friends who were like, I've set up five marriages and
[22:04]put it up.
[22:05]I'm not that way.
[22:06]I like to think I'm good.
[22:07]I'm actually not that way.
[22:08]I'm not even tried.
[22:09]I tried.
[22:10]I tried for a while and then I gave up because I realized I guess I just don't know what people
[22:11]want in a relationship.
[22:12]But like, I know what they want in a book.
[22:14]But a book is easier.
[22:15]It's easier.
[22:16]I don't know.
[22:17]It was a big give you a second.
[22:18]I spend a book that they love and then the second one they don't love.
[22:21]It's my show.
[22:22]Usually give you a third chance.
[22:23]Yeah.
[22:24]They'll say, well, I love the first one.
[22:25]I didn't love the second one.
[22:26]I was sort of like brainstorming a description of what I do.
[22:28]And one of the terms that I had come on was booky into it.
[22:31]Yes.
[22:32]I feel like that's sort of the...
[22:33]You know, it's like that.
[22:34]Like, you're like a booky.
[22:35]I love it.
[22:36]Yeah.
[22:37]Whatever.
[22:38]And again, I love to read.
[22:39]So I love to share like my passion for reading with others, whether it's somebody who reads
[22:42]a book a year or somebody who reads a book a week.
[22:44]Yeah.
[22:45]I agree.
[22:46]It's awesome.
[22:47]I said in the book, sometimes it's either time at life in general, basically.
[22:51]Sometimes it's easy.
[22:52]And sometimes it's not.
[22:53]That's why there's one.
[22:54]Yeah.
[22:55]Cheers.
[22:56]Cheers.
[22:57]Cheers.
[22:58]Just guess, please.
[22:59]And also, are there other ways perhaps the wine included that you have turned to get
[23:03]through the pitfalls or the difficult times?
[23:05]Totally.
[23:06]It's funny because my literary agent at one point in an early draft said, there's so
[23:11]much drinking in this book.
[23:14]And I said, well, you know, I think that whether it's good or bad, there's a, the wine
[23:19]culture is very prevalent.
[23:21]There are plenty of other ways that I think to deal with, you know, moments of stress or
[23:26]hardship.
[23:27]I mean, I like to spin.
[23:28]I like to see my friends and just be around people who make me feel better.
[23:33]I mean, the thing about friendships, which is, you know, something that we also wanted to write
[23:37]about in the book is that, you know, women can break your heart.
[23:40]Women can also heal your heart.
[23:41]And people are often so fixated on marriage and families.
[23:47]And the importance of friends is sometimes forgotten in the dialogue in this country.
[23:52]And I've certainly found that my friends, I have the most wonderful friends and they
[23:55]have gotten me through so much.
[23:57]So yes, wine, yes, vining, yes, friends, and obviously, you know, family and all that stuff.
[24:02]And reading.
[24:03]And reading.
[24:04]Reading is a huge thing for me.
[24:05]I mean, I really try to take time every day to read.
[24:08]It's not always easy.
[24:10]Like I failed miserably yesterday, but it's really important to me to get that time to
[24:14]like quiet my mind, quiet the thoughts in my head about myself and my own life and immerse
[24:19]myself in another story.
[24:21]Do you have any favorite books or books you're reading now or?
[24:23]I have to recommend.
[24:24]I mean, do three hours.
[24:26]I will say so.
[24:27]I have this summer.
[24:28]Let's take a few.
[24:29]Let's just let's say three.
[24:30]Not a thousand.
[24:31]Okay.
[24:32]So this summer, let's do current books then.
[24:33]So this summer, some of my favorite books have been, Fleischman is in trouble.
[24:38]I'm halfway through that.
[24:39]So good.
[24:40]And I am like the biggest fangirl of hers now.
[24:43]I tweeted at her in fact to be there.
[24:45]I direct message, Taffy Echner, and now she's going to come on the show.
[24:49]I'm so jealous.
[24:50]I wish I could watch that.
[24:51]She's that book to me was genius.
[24:55]I mean, towards the end, I was reading it on my Kindle.
[24:57]I was highlighting full pages.
[24:59]I was obsessed with that book.
[25:00]I still am obsessed with that book.
[25:01]But that's the book that I really tried like on my own Instagram account to talk about
[25:05]several times.
[25:06]There's a book that just came out last week called the marriage clock, which I loved.
[25:11]It is really funny and light and just a great summer read.
[25:18]And I just finished City of Girls.
[25:20]I finished it two days ago.
[25:22]And I could not put it down.
[25:24]So there have been some really amazing books out this summer.
[25:27]But I would say those have been three of my absolute favorite, oh, they also misses everything
[25:33]by Jennifer Wiener.
[25:34]I think it's her best one ever.
[25:36]There've been other books I'd love this summer.
[25:37]I had fun around the show earlier this summer.
[25:39]You did.
[25:40]I haven't heard that.
[25:41]I loved that book.
[25:42]So those are some of my favorite ones from the summer.
[25:45]So what's coming next for you?
[25:47]I don't know.
[25:48]So yeah, I was a lawyer, then I was a stay-at-home mom for like 11 years.
[25:52]And if you had told me two and a half years ago or three years ago that I was going to
[25:56]write a book and publish it, I would have thought you were crazy.
[26:00]So I feel you never know what's coming in life.
[26:03]You never know what opportunities you're going to find yourself facing.
[26:06]So I'm just going to enjoy this book and be busy with this book and be busy with my kids
[26:11]and then see what comes next.
[26:13]I do have little things in the back of my mind, but I'm trying to keep frenemies and my
[26:18]children in the front of my mind and not think about those other little ideas until I have
[26:23]a little more time.
[26:24]That's smart.
[26:25]Very wise.
[26:26]But I don't know the answer to that.
[26:27]I wish I knew.
[26:28]And do you have any advice for aspiring authors out there?
[26:30]I mean, I think the advice is a complete cliche, but cliches exist for a reason, right?
[26:35]Just to believing yourself.
[26:36]If you have an idea, sit down and start writing.
[26:39]If you have a manuscript that you believe in, keep pushing it.
[26:42]And one thing I've realized in meeting so many authors is that most authors have manuscripts
[26:48]in their drawers that they didn't sell or didn't even try to sell.
[26:52]Many authors work for many, many, many years until they sell their book.
[26:57]And if you believe in yourself, that's your best shot of publishing a book because if
[27:03]you start to give up, everybody else will too.
[27:05]Love it.
[27:06]Well, that's what I think.
[27:07]Yeah.
[27:08]No, no, it's great advice.
[27:09]It may be a cliche, but I don't think anybody has said that specifically, so, okay, good.
[27:12]There you go.
[27:13]Well, thank you so much for coming on mom's and her time to read books.
[27:16]You're so welcome.
[27:17]Lauren Gershel, Sophie Littlefield, that's what frenemies are for available now.
[27:22]Yes.
[27:23]Yes.
[27:24]All right.
[27:25]Well, thank you so much.
[27:26]Thanks again to today's sponsor of mom's don't have time to read books.
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[27:34]Thanks for listening to mom's don't have time to read books.
[27:37]You can follow me on Instagram at mom's don't have time to read books.
[27:41]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound for the sound editing.
[27:45]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outroom
[27:49]music.
[27:50]Thanks for listening.
[27:51]You could always email me at zibbyoins.com.