Heather Hansen, THE ELEGANT WARRIOR
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the web-e-nominated podcast,
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[0:31]I'm really excited to be here today with Heather Hansen, who's the author of the
[0:34]Elegant Warrior, How to Win Life's Trials without losing yourself.
[0:38]A trial lawyer for over 20 years defending medical malpractice suits,
[0:42]Heather is an advocacy and credibility consultant, keynote speaker, and host of the Elegant Warrior
[0:47]podcast. She has appeared on CNN and VC Fox News and is lectured at Stanford University in
[0:53]Villanova. Graduate of American University in Villanova Law School, she currently lives in New York,
[0:58]so welcome, Heather. Thank you so much for having me Zibi. I'm excited.
[1:02]Thanks for coming on Monster and have time to read books and thanks for just having me on
[1:05]your amazing podcast as well. I'm so excited to have you on, so it's a thrill.
[1:11]So can you tell listeners please what the Elegant Warrior is about and what inspired you to write it?
[1:15]Sure, so for 20 years I've defended doctors and hospitals when they get sued and while it's
[1:20]been a privilege and an honor, it's also very stressful and hard in that trials are a zero-sum
[1:27]game. Someone wins and someone loses and that means that sometimes it can get quite aggressive.
[1:33]And so I was finding that during those times of trial I wanted to maintain who I was and be true
[1:40]to the choices that I'd made about who I was, even when things get hard and we're at the height
[1:46]of the conflict. And I found that some of the ways that I could do that in the courtroom
[1:51]also applied outside the courtroom. I think that we are all our strongest advocates and the best
[1:56]person to protect and champion ourselves. And so if you can take the tools of a trial lawyer
[2:02]and apply them to life so that you can do those things, I think it would be helpful. And I wrote
[2:07]the book to help people be able to do that. And it was so great too. The way you structured the book
[2:12]like each chapter, I mean I was saying for moms who don't have time like
[2:16]short chapters are one of the saving graces of a book for me. But the chapters were they're so
[2:21]efficient. You have a topic, you have a summary at the end, you have proof, you have advice like
[2:27]and it just it was great. I was like this and and your own personal story that weaves its way
[2:32]through everything which made it all the more relatable and compelling. So it was really great.
[2:37]Thank you very much. I mean it's I think part of that is the way you have to write as a lawyer.
[2:41]You know you're not the stories but you have to be very focused and you have to get to the point
[2:45]and you can't be super wordy. And also the proof part is interesting. So many times I hear because
[2:51]this book sort of falls in the self-help genre and I hear people talking about things and I'm like well
[2:57]prove it. Like who are I don't understand why you can just say that. So it was important to me to
[3:02]give the psychological studies that backed up some of the things that I said so that people could
[3:06]say oh especially for those people who for whom proof is important I wanted to have that there.
[3:11]No I love that. It was great. So it did it just come naturally to you to structure it the way
[3:16]you think about it legally. It did. And also I I'm the same way with the short chapters especially
[3:21]for books like this like non-fiction books you know fiction books a chapter can go on and I can
[3:25]sort of get caught up in it. But I feel like I wanted this book to be one that if you were looking
[3:30]to a bad day or a stressful day you could open up to one chapter and just read one chapter really
[3:34]quickly and have that in your pocket for the day. So I knew I wanted them to be sure I wanted the
[3:39]three takeaways at the end of the chapter. I was pretty clear about that from the very beginning.
[3:44]It also helped to write it because it made structuring it easier. Yeah I could see that you could
[3:48]really like tackle it like on a given day and then like go on to the next and sort of envious of that.
[3:54]That's structure. Yeah when you're writing I can't I have I've started a fiction book and it's
[4:01]a lot harder. Like keeping things straight and what did I say and what's this character's name or
[4:05]you know the thing that I said about that you got to have like index cards everywhere.
[4:10]And I also loved all the kind of law and ordery stuff that you sprinkle through because
[4:16]it really did feel like you were watching a great courtroom drama which is some of the best
[4:21]movies like of all time right take place in that with the drama and intensity and all those
[4:26]you know tense moments in the jury and you like put us right there which was great so it's not
[4:31]just like I'm getting advice from you based on your experience. This is more like let me tell
[4:37]you about this case so that it was really really interesting. Well it's funny because lawyers have
[4:41]so many stories you know I had to get permission from the doctors that I've represented and I
[4:45]changed a lot of things as well but there's a lot of things that aren't in the book and like you
[4:49]I may someday fictionalize some of those things and make it into another book but there's there's
[4:55]very little as interesting as the courtroom because you know it's when and lose and what else
[5:02]is like that politics sports those are the things and then in my cases because it's doctor and
[5:08]patient they know each other. The only thing comparable to that is divorce law or family law
[5:13]because these doctors and patients have touched each other sometimes you know very
[5:18]delicately touched each other and so the cases get very stressful and emotional and very relatable
[5:25]in big big ways so the stories were just ripe for the taking that was not hard I mean there's
[5:31]hundreds of other stories that I didn't tell so that part was relatively easy. And I really
[5:35]liked the most the stories about you and getting to know you through this book I was particularly
[5:40]stark one of the and I think it was the first chapter towards the beginning of the book you talk
[5:44]about yourself in high school and how you at that time were a hundred pounds overweight and yet you
[5:49]still like to sing and you're sort of saying the attitude is everything that you would sing
[5:53]and then you were in the ladies room one day and some nasty girl was like what do you have to be
[5:57]happy about just just like really what is with people I mean everybody so mean anyway and you
[6:03]thought about that and tell I just wanted to hear more about that and then you ended up losing a
[6:07]hundred pounds I mean that's an interesting story in and of itself so tell me a little about that
[6:12]yeah so it's funny because that's probably that's a that's a longer story too but the first thing
[6:17]about that story is the girl who asked me that question actually I now know for sure had her own
[6:23]stuff going on I'm sure and I do think that her people hurt people so I feel like it wasn't so
[6:29]much that I was I mean obviously she was being study and rude but I was really curious like why
[6:34]am I so happy because in high school I was popular and I had a ton of friends and I loved my high
[6:40]school years but I didn't go to prom and I didn't go to the socials I didn't go to dances I
[6:44]didn't have a boyfriend and I do think that it was a choice you know that I chose to be happy
[6:50]and that you make those choices at times of trial when I'm in the middle of a case I also choose
[6:57]to be compassionate to the person on the other side and to be happy as best I can and some
[7:02]days that's easier than others so that part of the story is that and then the weight loss thing is
[7:08]when I when I got a little bit older and got to college I just realized that I never wanted to
[7:14]feel as though I hadn't reached the utmost of my potential so I wanted to see what that was
[7:18]and so losing the weight was pretty much I was not in a rush which I think helps it wasn't like
[7:24]I want to lose it by this day it was just like what can I be what could I be and I think that that's
[7:30]thinking of things in those terms helps you to sort of see so I lost that 100 pounds but I
[7:35]got to tell you Zippy that was you know got a million years ago it was 18 now 46 but and it
[7:40]it's not been that wasn't just it you know I gained that I lost and I gained that I lost and for a
[7:45]long time what I ate in my health and fitness and all that was such a huge part of my brain
[7:51]power and it wasn't until recently that I stopped perseverating on that and it was when I stopped
[7:56]perseverating on my weight that I was able to write the book because less of my brain was sucked
[8:01]up with what am I going to eat today are my pants going to sit what am I going to do to work out
[8:06]am I going to burn off as much as I ate and started being more okay with how I looked at who I was
[8:12]and then I had all this brain space that I was like well now I can write a book there you go it's a
[8:16]silver lining that's right exactly oh my gosh well it's good to have come to like a level of
[8:23]peace with whatever right I mean absolutely yeah I mean you want to be and it's also been great
[8:27]because since I sort of did that I've maintained at the weight that's right for me instead of
[8:32]this up and down that I used to do when I was constantly dieting so for me and every I feel like
[8:37]you know the dieting and the weight thing is not a big part of the book and it's probably a whole
[8:42]other book and a whole other conversation but I feel like there's no one size fits all when it comes
[8:46]to weight you know everybody's got to find their own way and sometimes it takes a whole bunch of
[8:50]different doors before you end up or you're supposed to be very true well I like how you included
[8:54]that as sort of one of the trials along along the way and how you manage that that was great
[8:58]you also talked about one trial where you had gotten very attached to the doctor a woman doctor
[9:04]about your age and when you were on your way to go fight for her you had an allergic reaction
[9:10]basically to stress not to anything else that your hormones cause you to end up in the ER and
[9:16]your lifts were swelling up and it was like a whole thing and I was reading this thing like oh my
[9:20]gosh I cannot believe this is happening to her you know tell me about that situation
[9:26]it was terrible it was terrible because the doctor you know every doctor that I represent I
[9:32]become close to and you know but some just you know she was she looked like me she was my age
[9:37]she was a woman in a field of men she really needed to win the case and she was explaining to me
[9:42]why and as she was explaining to me why I could feel now I've always gotten hives from hormonal
[9:48]things like stress but I could feel my lips swelling as she was speaking and then I do that
[9:53]thing where you sort of try and talk yourself into saying it's going to be okay and ultimately
[9:57]I called it uber to go to the hospital.
[10:00]because I was embarrassed to call 911.
[10:02]You were the second person in the last two days
[10:05]to tell me about taking Uber's to the hospital
[10:07]when you should call today ambulance.
[10:08]I'm like, these poor Uber drivers.
[10:10]I'm like, no, sick people in the back.
[10:13]I know.
[10:13]He was oh my gosh, that is so funny
[10:15]because he was totally looking in the rearview mirror
[10:17]like with his eyes wide because my face was just
[10:19]getting bigger and bigger.
[10:20]But it's funny, you just made me think of something.
[10:22]I recently read that women die of choking most often
[10:27]in the bathroom because they go there
[10:28]because they're embarrassed that they're choking
[10:31]and then they end up not getting the help they need.
[10:33]So totally off point, but it goes to show
[10:36]that we need to be less embarrassed about stupid things.
[10:39]I should have called an ambulance that day.
[10:40]And women should not run to the bathroom
[10:42]when they're choking.
[10:43]Any women listening don't run to the bathroom,
[10:44]get some help.
[10:45]But I just, in that case, as a quick aside,
[10:48]ambulances take forever to come in New York City.
[10:50]Just took like 15 minutes.
[10:53]You could have like been in a cab at the hospital.
[10:55]But anyway, just throwing that out there.
[10:58]Yeah, no, that's a good point.
[11:00]And I know you've dealt with that recently
[11:01]with one of your children with allergies.
[11:03]It's scary as can be whether you're a child, a mother,
[11:06]or the person going through it.
[11:08]I mean, go back to your story.
[11:09]No, I didn't want this to be.
[11:10]I was just saying like maybe in the future
[11:12]that the cab might be the way to go.
[11:13]But anyway, go ahead.
[11:14]Yeah, hopefully it never happens again.
[11:16]Yes, it was, you know, it was, I went to the hospital.
[11:19]They gave me Ben and Jill and steroids
[11:20]and it turned out to be okay.
[11:21]Though the whole time the case was an emergency room case.
[11:24]So the whole time that I was in the hospital,
[11:26]I was like, this is like manifestation
[11:27]at its finest, right?
[11:28]I'm like obsessed with emergency rooms.
[11:30]I'm reading emergency room records.
[11:32]I'm studying emergency room medicine
[11:33]and I'm sitting in one like getting a real time experience.
[11:36]Ultimately, though, we won that case.
[11:39]And it was one of the best wins I've ever had
[11:42]being able to call this woman up and tell her
[11:45]that we had won was a huge, huge, huge reward.
[11:48]But it also taught me that I had to find a way
[11:51]to make it less.
[11:54]My job, my wins and my losses were me for a while.
[11:58]And it was everything to me.
[12:00]And that's not healthy.
[12:01]Sometimes I felt like it had to be that way
[12:04]in order to serve my clients well.
[12:06]And that's not true either.
[12:07]You can serve the people around you,
[12:09]whether it's your clients as a lawyer,
[12:11]whether you're in sales, whether it's your family.
[12:13]You can serve them well and still find a way
[12:15]to take care of yourself.
[12:16]It's hard, but it's something
[12:18]that you should really try to work on doing.
[12:20]Otherwise, you end up in the year, right?
[12:22]Exactly.
[12:23]Exactly.
[12:24]Or needing other kinds of help.
[12:26]Right.
[12:27]So if you don't take care of yourself, it's imperative.
[12:29]It catches up to you, no doubt, no doubt about it.
[12:32]And you also told this other story about the man
[12:35]you were dating, I don't know if you're still dating him,
[12:37]but he had had a heart attack.
[12:38]And you spent the whole weekend with him
[12:40]and didn't even know it.
[12:41]And then had to go through that whole situation as well.
[12:45]Yeah, it's terrible to say,
[12:47]but I've had two men named John
[12:48]have heart attack in my presence, which is like,
[12:51]so I'm not dating John anymore,
[12:53]but we were at the shore.
[12:54]And one of the things because I defend doctors,
[12:57]I feel like I'm a doctor.
[12:58]My brother makes fun of me because he's like,
[12:59]you can't deliver babies when my sister was having her baby.
[13:02]I was ready to run in and take care of that.
[13:05]And same thing, I do a lot of orthopedic cases.
[13:07]So I seem to think that I could perform my dad's
[13:09]knee replacement surgeries.
[13:11]But when John, we were dating and we were at the shore
[13:13]and he was having stomach pains all weekend.
[13:16]And he was such a trooper and such a great guy
[13:19]that he tried to come to the beach with me and my friends,
[13:22]even though he wasn't feeling great.
[13:23]And he like carried a woman in a wheelchair
[13:25]and she had one of those sand wheelchairs down the beach
[13:28]and not feeling great.
[13:30]And then on Sunday morning of that weekend,
[13:32]the doctor finally said it sounds like you have a kidney
[13:34]stone, go to the hospital.
[13:36]And it really showed me zippy what role serendipity plays.
[13:41]I mean, if we had gone to the hospital in Jersey,
[13:44]it's not as well known for cardiac help
[13:47]and who knows what would have happened.
[13:49]And then when we got to the hospital,
[13:50]he was sort of like, well, if it's crowded, I'm not staying.
[13:52]I just want to get some sleep.
[13:53]And if there's no parking, I'm not staying.
[13:56]And it turned out that we got the most amazing cardiologist
[13:59]at Lennox Hill Hospital.
[14:00]And John had had a heart attack on Friday.
[14:04]And he had the worst kind of heart attack you can have.
[14:06]But he's now we are still good friends
[14:08]and he is now really healthy.
[14:09]And he was healthy before.
[14:11]But I think really good at taking better care of himself
[14:14]in a similar way.
[14:16]You talk about crying in the courtroom
[14:19]and how you're just a crier.
[14:20]And that's I am also a crier, so I get it.
[14:23]But then you have this lovely line.
[14:24]When you said my saltiest tears have been from the times,
[14:28]I've lost my way, which made me so sad.
[14:31]So I wonder if you could share maybe one time
[14:33]where you feel like you lost your way in life.
[14:37]Well, I think it's especially true with my cases.
[14:40]So when I first started, there are some lawyers
[14:43]who are super, super aggressive.
[14:45]And I never wanted to be that person.
[14:48]In fact, I've had lawyers say to their client,
[14:50]otherwise not your friend.
[14:53]Because I want to, I always feel as though
[14:56]if it's my job to take away their story
[14:59]because ultimately the jury has to decide between two stories.
[15:01]And if I think a patient is not telling the truth,
[15:04]whether by choice or by their memory,
[15:06]my job is to show that to the jury.
[15:08]So I can take their story without taking their dignity.
[15:11]But I'm not perfect.
[15:12]And there are times when I get more aggressive than I want to be,
[15:15]especially when I was younger.
[15:16]And I felt that pressure to be,
[15:17]it's a man's world that I live in.
[15:19]Only 5% of trial lawyers about our women.
[15:22]And so those cases where I attacked more than I had to
[15:27]are got more bloody than I had to,
[15:29]those are the times when my tears,
[15:31]whether I want or lost would be,
[15:34]I'm not being who I want to be in this job.
[15:37]There's a story that I tell at the beginning of the book
[15:39]of sitting in my car and crying because there was a patient
[15:42]who was hurt and I had to attack his story.
[15:46]And I felt bad about it afterwards.
[15:48]It's a very fine line between taking a person's story
[15:52]and taking their dignity.
[15:54]And any time that I feel like I've fallen on the side
[15:56]of taking their dignity, it hurts me.
[15:58]Yeah, that's nice.
[15:59]I mean, that's, I mean, I know it is.
[16:01]I mean, I'm sure not every lawyer.
[16:03]Well, anyway, I'll leave that aside.
[16:04]Well, maybe I'll transition to this now, actually.
[16:06]You said you had a whole section also on getting dirty,
[16:09]which was fantastic.
[16:10]And you quoted George Bernard Shaw
[16:12]who said, I learned long ago never to wrestle with a pig.
[16:15]You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
[16:18]Like that's the best quote ever.
[16:20]And then you mentioned about ways that people had
[16:23]sort of played dirty with you and how you weren't
[16:24]willing to engage.
[16:25]So I was hoping you could tell the story of the lawyer
[16:28]who was rooting through all of your stuff
[16:29]when you stuck back in and how you handled that.
[16:32]Yeah, so when we leave the courtroom,
[16:34]we leave all of our papers behind.
[16:36]And while, you know, you'd think that a lot of this stuff
[16:38]would be online, we really do.
[16:39]We're still paper heavy.
[16:41]And so you sort of put all your papers on one side of the room
[16:44]and you hope for the best.
[16:45]There are some lawyers who take everything back
[16:48]to their office every night.
[16:49]But we're talking about boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff.
[16:52]So doing that is literally packing everything up
[16:54]and having a courier come.
[16:55]And it just doesn't make sense.
[16:57]So in this particular case, I had left the courtroom
[16:59]and then realized I forgot my umbrella
[17:00]went back into the courtroom and saw the opposing counsel
[17:03]on my side of the room rooting through the boxes.
[17:07]And he saw me, I saw him and he was completely embarrassed.
[17:12]I don't know that he actually saw anything
[17:14]that would have helped him with the case.
[17:16]And at the end of the case, there were multiple defendants
[17:18]and it was a defense verdict, we all won.
[17:20]But he wasn't able to meet my eye to shake my hand,
[17:24]which is another thing that's important to me.
[17:26]I want to be able to meet the eye of everyone in that courtroom
[17:28]and then in my own eye in the mirror at the end of the day.
[17:31]But what I did start doing is I wear my sneakers to and from court
[17:36]and then I change into big nasty, uncomfortable heels
[17:40]for the courtroom.
[17:40]So I started every day when I would take off my heels,
[17:43]I would put them on top of the boxes to sort of protect them
[17:47]and to say to people, like if you want to get in here,
[17:49]you have to go past these shoes.
[17:50]I loved, I feel like that should have in the cover of this book,
[17:53]a picture of all those boxes if you're still let us on top.
[17:56]Like that was like killer, I loved it.
[17:58]My mom said the exact same things of these.
[18:00]So I should have contacted the two of your shows
[18:02]that visual as well.
[18:04]Yeah, that was a great one.
[18:06]So tell me also about starting your podcast.
[18:09]How did you end up starting the elegant warrior podcast
[18:11]and have you enjoyed doing it?
[18:13]And what's been the best part?
[18:16]I love it.
[18:17]So I started it as a platform.
[18:19]We've talked about this before that if you are an author
[18:22]or have any, I do a lot of keynote speaking
[18:25]on how to be your own best advocate in sales
[18:27]and how to use the tools of a trial lawyer
[18:29]to win more sales and more attention.
[18:31]And so I wanted a platform for both of those things
[18:34]and I don't like talking about myself.
[18:37]Despite the, yeah, how are you about a book about yourself?
[18:40]But I really like hearing other people's stories
[18:43]and sharing other people's stories
[18:45]and sharing other people's lessons.
[18:47]So the podcast was the perfect vehicle
[18:49]to create a platform without having to be like,
[18:52]hey, look at me every day.
[18:53]And it has been the greatest gift of this entire process.
[18:58]Being able to meet and interview, I mean, you know this
[19:01]because you get to reach out to authors
[19:03]who otherwise you'd never get to talk to
[19:05]and have conversations with them.
[19:07]It's like, I don't know why everyone isn't doing this.
[19:10]And it seems like more and more people are.
[19:12]It's like so some of the people,
[19:13]I mean, Kelly Rutherford, you may know her as well.
[19:15]She lives in New York and she has become a friend.
[19:17]She's been on the podcast and Dan Abrams
[19:20]who's my boss at the Law and Crime Network.
[19:21]But also, and she's mentioned in the book as well,
[19:24]Judge Rosemary Aqualina, who was the judge
[19:27]in that Larry Nassar case.
[19:29]I am an anchor at the Law and Crime Network sometimes
[19:31]and I watched her handle that case
[19:34]and I so wanted to talk to her.
[19:36]And she agreed to come in the podcast,
[19:38]which otherwise I never would have been able
[19:40]to have a conversation with her.
[19:41]So it is so much fun.
[19:44]It's been so great and a lot easier than I thought it would be.
[19:47]I have a fabulous Gotham podcast studio
[19:50]is where I do my podcast and they make it really easy.
[19:53]So it's just been win, win, win, win, win, win, awesome.
[19:56]And I just wanna close with one quote that you ask.
[20:00]People you got this from a judge and maybe that was it that judge. Yes, it was that right?
[20:05]Yes, and she says tell me what you want me to know instead of asking like tell
[20:09]She says tell me what you want me to know and I loved that and that she found that and you also found that it
[20:16]elicited a whole different range of responses than a more direct question or something, but it allows people to
[20:24]Offer up so I want to ask you now like tell me what you want me to know
[20:28]What I want people to know is that there is no one better suited
[20:34]To speak up for you to champion you to protect you to help you then you are
[20:41]You know, I always say to people like be your own advocate
[20:44]There is no one who knows what you know
[20:46]There is no one your voice is as individual to you as your fingerprint
[20:50]There is no one who can say what you need to say the way you need to say it and whether that's writing a book as all of the authors that you talked to
[20:56]Whether it's having a podcast or whether it's just talking to your spouse and and telling them what you want them to know
[21:03]You can do it. You don't need to look to somebody else to do it for you and the more tools that you have in your toolbox
[21:09]The better you can do it, but one way or another you'll find your way. Oh, I love them and just any last advice
[21:16]Just for somebody writing a book right now the way that I did it and again
[21:20]It's sort of like losing weight everybody has their way
[21:21]But the way that I did it was I took time every morning
[21:24]So I'm an early riser anyway. I get up at five to work out
[21:27]I started getting up at four. I know that sounds like oh my gosh
[21:29]But it was four to five is dirt that time for me that no one was gonna call me my doctors are early risers
[21:35]So sometimes they do start calling at five
[21:36]I had that hour of time every morning that I could totally commit to writing and that's how I got it done
[21:43]I'm so impressed
[21:45]It's not easy, but it's done. It was great. The book was no it was really fantastic and like user friendly
[21:51]But also I loved getting to know you more through the book and it was really great
[21:56]So and thanks for coming on the podcast and your podcast and all the rest of it. Thank you
[22:02]It was a pleasure my pleasure. I do
[22:05]All right, bye. Bye
[22:07]Thanks again to today's sponsor of momstone have time to read books
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[22:15]Thanks for listening to momstone have time to read books
[22:18]You can follow me on instagram at moms don't have time to read books
[22:21]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing and
[22:26]Thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music. Thanks for listening
[22:31]You could always email me at zibi at zibi Owens dot com