Fiona Davis, THE CHELSEA GIRLS
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[1:54]I'm excited to be here today with Fiona Davis, the best-selling author of The Dollhouse,
[1:58]The Address, The Masterpiece, and her latest book, The Chelsea Girls.
[2:02]The graduate of the College of William & Mary and the Columbia Journalism School, Fiona
[2:06]worked as an actress in the theater before becoming an editor, freelance journalist, and
[2:10]then a historical fiction novelist.
[2:12]She currently lives in New York City, so welcome to Fiona.
[2:15]Thank you very much thrilled to be here.
[2:17]Oh, yay.
[2:18]So I was just away with two girlfriends, and I had brought a big stack of books with
[2:23]me.
[2:24]I mean, I was gone for two days.
[2:25]I brought six books, which is like, but one of them, the one on the top was yours, and
[2:31]my good girlfriend was like, oh my gosh, that book hasn't even come out yet.
[2:35]And I was like, she had read all your other books and was so excited that I was interviewing
[2:39]him.
[2:40]Oh, that's fantastic.
[2:42]Yeah.
[2:43]Oh, it makes my day.
[2:44]That's wonderful.
[2:45]So I was like, well, do you want to read mine?
[2:46]She's like, no, I won't finish it.
[2:47]And then, you know, I kick it on my Kindle for a while.
[2:49]So anyway, you have fans everywhere as you know.
[2:52]So tell me about The Chelsea Girls, what this book of yours is about and what inspired
[2:57]you to write it.
[2:58]Sure.
[2:59]So each of my books are situated around a landmark New York City building.
[3:04]And the building for this one is, of course, The Chelsea Hotel.
[3:08]And it was, what it's about is about female friendship and the theater and New York City
[3:14]and politics, which is kind of something new that I'm layering in.
[3:17]And it takes place in 1950 from the point of view of an actress and a playwright, both
[3:22]women, who were trying to mount a play on Broadway during the McCarthy era.
[3:28]And that was a very interesting time for actors in New York City.
[3:32]And I did a lot of research and learned all about it.
[3:35]And The Chelsea Girls has everything that my other books are known for, which is a couple
[3:38]timelines.
[3:40]It's set in a iconic New York City building.
[3:44]And there's a couple major twists.
[3:45]For sure.
[3:46]I did not see one of those coming in particular.
[3:49]Oh, good.
[3:50]That's what I like to hear.
[3:51]Yeah, I really did.
[3:52]And I was trying to figure it out, but I did not.
[3:55]So why The Chelsea Hotel?
[3:57]And have you been there when was the first time you went there?
[4:00]How did you pick it as your next book site?
[4:02]Yeah, sure.
[4:03]So I've been to The Chelsea Hotel a long time ago.
[4:07]And I remember popping into the lobby and being kind of intimidated by it.
[4:11]There's a lot of artwork.
[4:12]There's some quirky people.
[4:13]It's just got this kind of wild history of being a place where artists and painters and
[4:20]musicians and actors and playwrights all lived.
[4:25]And it has a reputation for being very eccentric and kind of quirky.
[4:30]It was founded in the 1880s as a co-op, but went bankrupt and then became a hotel.
[4:36]And some of the people who've lived there, it's an incredible list.
[4:40]Dylan Thomas, Janice Joplin, Leonard Cohen.
[4:44]There's just an incredible list of people through the ages who've lived there.
[4:48]And so in fact, it was kind of intimidating at the thought of choosing it.
[4:52]But the more I researched, the more I realized it was really the perfect setting for this
[4:56]book because it was a hotbed of political intrigue in the 50s.
[5:00]And so it kind of made the perfect setting for people dealing with McCarthyism.
[5:05]And did you know anybody, like when you were doing your research, did you talk to anybody
[5:09]who was affected by the blacklisting and the magazines that came out listing people's
[5:15]names?
[5:16]Do you have firsthand experience with that?
[5:17]Or was this more research that was in newspapers and things like that?
[5:21]It's such a good question.
[5:22]The whole idea for kind of focusing on that era came from an interview I did with an
[5:26]actress who was 99 the last time I talked to her.
[5:30]She passed away last year at the age of 99.
[5:33]And her name was Virginia Robinson.
[5:35]And I had interviewed her because I thought maybe in one of the earlier books, I might
[5:39]have an actress.
[5:41]And I ended up not doing it for that book because I knew I had to save it because this
[5:45]was gold.
[5:46]We were talking about her time in the USO on tour in World War II.
[5:51]And her level of detail was incredible.
[5:53]She talked about how her soldier boyfriend would bring her good and plenty or how they
[5:58]crave orange juice.
[6:00]And then she started talking about being an actress in New York in the 1950s.
[6:04]And she started using phrases like red channels and loyalty oaths.
[6:08]And she became incensed when I didn't know what she was talking about.
[6:13]And I realized there was this whole level of the McCarthy era that I didn't know that
[6:18]affected New York City actors.
[6:19]It was really more of kind of a gray list than a blacklist, which is what we know of from
[6:24]the film industry in Trumbo.
[6:27]And so from talking to her, and I went back to her a few times to keep on interviewing
[6:32]her.
[6:33]And again, she just had such vivid memories.
[6:35]And her anger was just as strong today as it was back then at the injustice that was
[6:42]being done towards artists and entertainers.
[6:46]And I went on to interview two other people who were directly affected then.
[6:50]And just to jump in for a second in case people like I was not familiar with this either.
[6:55]So basically what was going on at the time was that people in the theater and other industries
[7:00]were being unfairly picked out as communists for doing things like attending one single
[7:06]march or signing one piece of paper or something.
[7:10]And then blasted publicly for their affiliation with communism.
[7:14]And then sometimes losing their jobs and things like that.
[7:17]Is that a good one?
[7:18]Yeah, exactly.
[7:19]That perfectly sums it up.
[7:21]There's a publication called Red Channels that if you got named in that, and it would
[7:25]list your name and then all your supposed offenses, no one would hire you.
[7:30]And it was completely in just because it was completely, you know, a terrible thing to
[7:35]do because keep in mind, even being a communist was perfectly legal back then.
[7:41]It wasn't illegal.
[7:42]And a lot of these people were just picked out because, for example, Lee Grant was an
[7:46]actress I interviewed.
[7:48]And she was nominated for an Oscar for her first film role in 1951.
[7:54]But then she refused to testify against her husband before the House on American Activities
[7:59]Committee and did not work for 10 years.
[8:01]Wow.
[8:02]Yeah.
[8:03]I would have liked to be like, you know, a fly on the wall in their household for those
[8:08]10 years.
[8:09]Do you know what I mean?
[8:10]Right?
[8:11]I mean, that's tough.
[8:12]I mean, anyway.
[8:13]Whatever.
[8:14]Yeah.
[8:15]It was just very arbitrary and really unfair.
[8:18]And then so the context of the political intrigue made this particularly interesting.
[8:25]But also, even without that, the female friendship relationships and the siblings and
[8:30]the mothers and daughters.
[8:31]And this is like a book I mean, it could have been today with some other political issue
[8:35]going on.
[8:36]And I loved how you talked about Maxine and Hazel's relationships, the two women, the famous
[8:42]actress and the playwright.
[8:44]And in one scene, you have Hazel telling Maxine, you know, I didn't write back.
[8:48]I pulled away from our friendship and I'm so sorry.
[8:51]I felt dull next to your glamorous lifestyle.
[8:54]Like I was treading water while you performed tricks from the high dive.
[8:57]I was jealous, I suppose.
[8:59]So talk to me more about this aspect of women's friendship.
[9:03]There's in particular, but what made you want to dive into that relationship dynamic?
[9:07]Yeah.
[9:08]Yeah.
[9:09]I think it's interesting when you're in the theater industry or in, I came to New York
[9:15]as an actress in my 20s.
[9:18]And so you go to auditions and there's just a, you know, I was a tall blonde and I go
[9:22]to auditions and there'll be a line of 20 tall blondes, you know, all going for the same
[9:28]part or the same commercial and it was just insane.
[9:31]But luckily I fell into a theater company called Willow Cabin and we put on three shows
[9:36]a year and we did everything.
[9:38]We hung the lights.
[9:39]We made the costumes.
[9:40]We went to thrift stores and bought things if we couldn't, you know, make them.
[9:45]And it was just this fantastic group of people and the exact opposite of that where everybody
[9:50]was pulling together and it was all to put on a show.
[9:54]And you know, one of our shows was, went to Broadway and was nominated for a Tony and
[10:00]It was just, they're all still my best friends today.
[10:03]Oh, no wins.
[10:04]That was so nice.
[10:05]Oh, yeah.
[10:06]Yeah.
[10:07]So it's really the opposite of that.
[10:08]But you could see, as you go up for auditions, just the nature of the beast is that
[10:13]it's, you know, you're competing with people.
[10:17]And so I was interested in kind of looking into that.
[10:20]And these two women who both started out as actresses, but one becomes a playwright.
[10:23]And how does that power dynamic change?
[10:26]I feel like people don't often, especially women, there is this sort of comparison
[10:32]that goes on a lot between women with each other, sort of a measuring up that's constantly
[10:36]taken, whether it's your body or your clothes or your life, that people, you know,
[10:42]they maybe they don't feel good about it.
[10:43]And some women obviously do this much more than others, which I think comes mostly from insecurity
[10:48]and whatever else.
[10:49]But, you know, it's often not addressed in the way that you did so beautifully here.
[10:53]And that, you know, even that Hazel would have the self awareness to know, like, you
[10:59]know what, I or Maxine would have the self awareness, they both have enough self awareness
[11:03]to take stock of their relationship and be able to apologize for it, right?
[11:08]Yes.
[11:09]Yeah.
[11:10]And to go with the flow is circumstances change and realizing that a friendship is fluid.
[11:16]And so there are sometimes that, you know, one person is kind of pulling their weight more
[11:19]than the other.
[11:21]It's almost like a marriage, I think, a long-term friendship where you go through cycles
[11:25]and you're really connected and then things come up and you're off doing other things.
[11:29]But having that history of these experiences is what really is what really bonded them.
[11:35]Do you think that men do the same thing?
[11:37]I mean, I feel like men, this is just my two cents.
[11:40]I don't know.
[11:41]From what the people that I've done, I do catch it with men or more likely to be like,
[11:45]oh, you know, that guy has that great job and I want that and where his women won't say
[11:49]that at all.
[11:50]Like, I don't think she needs to come to lunch.
[11:53]You know?
[11:54]Oh, I do think men have a different bond that I think in some ways can be even deeper
[11:58]than a woman's without all the talking and the angst.
[12:03]You know, I think some men just have bonds that have guide them through all their lives
[12:10]and there's less of the kind of up and down that sometimes can do.
[12:15]Maybe it's our nature, so I'm not sure.
[12:18]You wrote so poignantly about Hazel losing her brother, Ben, in the war and I was just
[12:22]wondering and you don't have to answer this, but if you've gone through any personal
[12:26]lessons yourself, which have made you more sensitive to sort of that feeling of loss and
[12:30]grief, you know, I've been so lucky and that my family is still around and I'm close
[12:36]with my brother and my parents are still around and very happy.
[12:39]But for me, I probably draw on a period from about five years ago when I went through
[12:43]a divorce and that same year my dog died and there was just a lot of loss within a short
[12:51]period of time, this kind of cascade of loss.
[12:54]And I really had to figure out what I wanted to do with my life and what I wanted out
[13:01]of life after taking care of other people for a long time, you know, now what.
[13:07]And so for me, I think that's what I tap into, that sense of kind of coming home at the
[13:12]end of the day to an empty apartment and not even the dog being able to come and greet
[13:17]me.
[13:18]I know.
[13:19]That's just so.
[13:20]That's just so sad.
[13:22]And so it, even though it wasn't a loss that, you know, everybody was still around and
[13:27]it was just, it was a change in family dynamics and that was what, in a way, it kind of
[13:33]woke me up in a really wonderful way.
[13:36]So, and for I think for Hazel losing her brother puts her in the spotlight where this
[13:41]family that is all about being entertainers and he was supposed to be the prince of Broadway.
[13:47]And so now she is supposed to take up that mantle and how does she do that?
[13:52]And you brought in their relationship with the mother because the mother, of course,
[13:55]had like idolized the son, has been more pushing Hazel to take his place in a way.
[14:01]And you had a great quote, Maxine is now commenting on Hazel's relationship with her mother
[14:05]and you say, your mother is one of those people who comes across as selfless and caring,
[14:10]but only so others will recognize and laud her martyrdom.
[14:13]She craves control.
[14:14]So tell me more about that.
[14:16]Yeah.
[14:17]I love how you picked out these lines that are so key.
[14:19]You're exactly, you're honing in exactly where you should.
[14:23]Yeah, for me, I think for me, I am a caretaker.
[14:27]And so, you know, I like to take care of everybody and, and as I've gotten older, I've
[14:33]realized, oh, that's not my issue.
[14:36]I can't take care of everybody.
[14:38]I can't control everything.
[14:39]So I was interested in exploring that in the book.
[14:43]And so, you know, how do you live in the moment and, and how do you enjoy what you have
[14:48]knowing that you don't know what's going to happen down the road?
[14:52]And so for me, that I think that's where that comes in.
[14:57]And also, I think I've been able to channel that need to control into writing books where
[15:02]you do control the plot and you do control all the characters and you decide if they're
[15:06]happy or sad or if they live or die and, you know, it's very empowering to write a book
[15:13]because you're living in this whole other world that's all yours to play with.
[15:19]And so, yeah, in the book, I, I, I like making the mother, she's not very sympathetic.
[15:25]But, but just exploring the things that I'm interested in through these characters is
[15:32]what I try to do.
[15:33]That's so interesting to say that writing is a way of exerting control in a, in a world
[15:39]that feels out of control.
[15:40]I mean, it seems obvious, but I haven't heard it said like that before.
[15:43]And it's so true, right?
[15:45]If you really want to affect change, just make it up really, right?
[15:48]Yes, yes, exactly.
[15:52]Have you ever tried writing a play?
[15:53]I feel like you had such a, you just described Hazel's writing this play, her plays.
[15:59]And I mean, it obviously writing a book has some of the similar things of, you know, sitting
[16:02]down in the typewriter in the hotel and all the rest of it, but I was just wondering
[16:05]if you had tried to write a play, or if you want to write the play, the wartime sonata,
[16:09]which she writes.
[16:10]Like, do you want to now go and try to write that?
[16:13]I love that.
[16:14]You know, I, I see a lot of plays.
[16:17]And so I have such respect for great playwrights and how they do what they do.
[16:22]And I think having watched a lot of plays, I can see how you build tension and how dialogue
[16:27]is so important.
[16:28]And I don't know if I could write one because I'd miss writing about all the behind-the-scenes
[16:32]stuff of what the room looks like and being able to show the characters interior through
[16:38]the exterior in a way, which you can't do, a play is just stripped down.
[16:43]And so no, that, that intimidates me like crazy, the thought of doing that.
[16:47]And it was so much fun to write about a play in the book without having to write the play
[16:51]because it could be whatever I want, you know, I could kind of layer in whatever I wanted.
[16:56]And I think it's kind of a parallel situation to when you first start writing a book.
[17:01]And it's this great idea, right?
[17:03]And it's going to be amazing and it could go anywhere.
[17:06]And then as you start writing it, you have to get specific and suddenly it gets harder
[17:10]and harder.
[17:11]And so to have this kind of bubble of war times some odd of this amazing play, which
[17:15]I didn't have to write, that was...
[17:17]So what is it like when you write books?
[17:21]How, what's your process like and how long does it take for each of your books and where
[17:25]do you like to write?
[17:26]Yeah.
[17:27]So I am a plotter.
[17:29]I come from a family of engineers and, you know, you figure it all out beforehand.
[17:36]And so that's what I do.
[17:37]I do a lot of research for about three months to figure out who the characters should
[17:40]be and really get to know the setting, which is so important and almost like another character
[17:45]in the book.
[17:46]And then I write a first draft and then I revise it.
[17:50]I'd say anywhere from 9 to 11 times of going through and showing it to my agent and to
[17:57]my editor and really deepening it.
[18:00]But I tend to know where I need to go.
[18:02]And because it's complicated and there's two timelines and an element of mystery, I really
[18:07]have to know where I'm headed in order to pull that off.
[18:10]And not waste time.
[18:11]I write about a book a year at the moment.
[18:14]Well, it's impressive.
[18:16]It's crazy.
[18:17]What's the hardest part of that for you?
[18:18]Like what moment is the hardest?
[18:20]I think the hardest is after you've written the first draft and it feels like, oh, yeah,
[18:25]I figured this out and then you get feedback and you realize, no, you've got a long way
[18:29]to go.
[18:30]And having been a former journalist, I really love a good editor.
[18:35]I love getting feedback.
[18:36]I love having that input of realizing, oh, yeah, what if I did this?
[18:41]But it's a lot of work and every book, it's still a lot of work.
[18:45]Do you already have your next site picked out for your next book or have you
[18:48]started writing your next book already?
[18:50]Or is it done?
[18:51]Is it done?
[18:52]No, now that the first draft is done, it said it's your public library.
[18:56]No, no way.
[18:57]Yeah.
[18:58]Yeah.
[18:59]And it's, I learned that in my research, I learned that in, when it first opened in 1911,
[19:03]for about 20 years, the superintendent lived in the building in the seven-room apartment
[19:09]in the public library with his family, with his wife and three kids.
[19:13]And so I've created a superintendent who's a fictional one and it's from the point of
[19:17]view of the superintendent's wife who in 1913 and she kind of gets caught up in, she
[19:24]wants to go to journalism school, which the Columbia Journalism School had just opened at
[19:29]that moment.
[19:30]And she gets kind of caught up in the new Bohemia of Greenwich Village and the changes that
[19:35]were kind of happening among women at that time, that were really dynamic and kind of
[19:40]out there.
[19:42]And then it also takes place from the point of view of this risk-averse librarian in 1993
[19:46]who's trying to put on an exhibit of rare books and both timelines deal with book
[19:52]thefts and these rare books and manuscripts that are going missing.
[19:57]And so you're trying to figure out, okay, what's going on?
[20:00]Where are these steps happening?
[20:01]How are they happening?
[20:03]And who are really striving to make them mark?
[20:06]That sounds so good.
[20:07]Do you have a working title for it?
[20:09]Yep, what's called the Lions of Fifth Avenue?
[20:12]Oh, that's great.
[20:14]So I'm on the library council there.
[20:16]So I always try to, I started getting involved
[20:18]right after college.
[20:19]I was a young lion and now I'm on the library council.
[20:22]And every year I chair, I've been sharing the library lunch
[20:26]for the last four years or so, which I love doing.
[20:28]And they always have these fantastic panelists
[20:31]with David Remnick of the New Yorker.
[20:32]And so I'm a huge fan.
[20:34]My first wedding was at the New York Public Library.
[20:36]Oh, my goodness.
[20:37]I had no idea.
[20:38]I had no idea.
[20:40]So I'm a big guy.
[20:40]And you're actually called the Lions.
[20:44]The Young Lions, when I was young.
[20:46]Then I was kicked out because I'm too old.
[20:49]So now they moved me onto the library council,
[20:51]which is just like another committee.
[20:53]And anyway, I'm a huge fan of libraries
[20:55]and particularly the New York Public Library.
[20:57]So I'm excited to let your next book is that.
[21:00]That's awesome.
[21:01]Fantastic.
[21:02]And they've been wonderful.
[21:03]They've given me behind the scenes tour.
[21:05]I've been able to see where the old apartment was.
[21:08]I even have there's something called the Allen Room
[21:10]where if you have a book contract,
[21:12]you can go in there and work.
[21:14]And they deliver books right to you.
[21:16]So I have books on typhoid and all that.
[21:19]It's just a remarkable place.
[21:20]And they've been wonderful.
[21:22]Oh, that's great.
[21:23]I have one more question about the theater aspect.
[21:25]And then I just want to hear any general advice
[21:27]you have.
[21:28]But I feel like there have been a series of threats
[21:30]to the theater community over the years.
[21:32]The McCarthyism.
[21:34]I feel like the AIDS crisis and the 80s was just a huge threat.
[21:39]What do you think now is the biggest threat
[21:42]to the theater world?
[21:44]Oh, that's a good question.
[21:45]I think one of the issues is that there's
[21:49]so many big spectaculars going on.
[21:51]And so there's, and there are all of films and things
[21:56]that we already know.
[21:57]So it's just recycling material for the biggest bang
[22:00]for your buck to lure in tourists.
[22:03]And so there's not much behind them.
[22:05]They're kind of thin.
[22:07]On the other hand, though, it really
[22:08]is almost like a golden age of theater going on right now,
[22:12]where it's really hard to get space,
[22:14]if you're trying to mount a show, because there's
[22:16]so many options.
[22:18]There's so many plays and musicals going on.
[22:21]And you have some amazing young playwrights,
[22:23]like Lucas Knott and Martina Mayok.
[22:27]And who are doing these incredible plays in their young
[22:30]and smart, you've Manhattan theater club and playwrights
[22:34]horizons.
[22:35]And so there's all this stuff percolating.
[22:37]And it's new voices who they have something to say.
[22:42]And they're not coming from the old traditional theater,
[22:47]which was older white guys talking about, whatever.
[22:50]These are young, smart, diverse playwrights
[22:53]who are saying something new.
[22:55]And to me, that's just really exciting.
[22:58]That is exciting.
[22:59]I feel like just to answer my own question.
[23:01]I feel like the biggest threat is people's lack of attention
[23:04]and the distractions from technology and phones.
[23:07]And I loved the introduction to the Tony's this year.
[23:10]Did you watch the Tony's?
[23:12]Yeah, hilarious little song and dance
[23:15]number at the beginning?
[23:16]So funny.
[23:17]So I feel like at least they're aware and trying
[23:20]to tackle that particular challenge right now.
[23:23]Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
[23:25]But it's certainly not for a lack of fabulous content
[23:28]in the theater world, that's for sure.
[23:30]So what advice can you give to aspiring authors
[23:33]who want to be the next you?
[23:37]You know, I would say write what you want to read,
[23:40]which I know people say all the time.
[23:43]But when I started writing the dollhouse, my first book,
[23:46]I knew I wanted to do it in two timelines
[23:48]because those are the books I love.
[23:50]And I knew I wanted some mystery and some clues
[23:53]because that's what I love.
[23:54]If I'd known how hard that was,
[23:57]I would have never, never attempted it.
[24:00]But I'm so glad I did.
[24:03]And it was a real learning curve.
[24:05]And I learned a lot from doing that.
[24:08]And I think the other thing is it's OK
[24:10]to live your life first before you become a writer.
[24:13]You know, I'm in my 50s, I'm not in my 20s.
[24:17]And I'm so glad that the success is coming now
[24:20]because, A, I can appreciate it.
[24:22]And B, I feel like I have something to say.
[24:24]If I were in my 20s, I just wouldn't
[24:26]have the life experience to tap into.
[24:29]And so I encourage anyone who's
[24:32]thinking about being a writer, don't worry
[24:35]if you haven't been doing it since you were 18.
[24:38]It's OK to start late.
[24:40]I literally just interviewed Joanne Ramos
[24:43]who wrote The Farm, a novel that came out this summer.
[24:45]Oh, yes, I have that.
[24:46]It's on my 20s.
[24:47]Oh, it's really good.
[24:48]It's really, really good.
[24:49]Anyway, I literally interviewed her about an hour ago.
[24:52]And we had the same conversation at the end
[24:54]because I was saying that everyone I'm interviewing,
[24:57]I'm not interviewing that many people in there in 20s
[24:59]or even really early 30s, right?
[25:01]I feel like there must be something
[25:03]about this stage of life where great content comes from
[25:07]or the wisdom or whatever.
[25:09]Anyway, we were literally just having the same thing.
[25:11]and so your advice is that's the advice of the day.
[25:14]That's so good.
[25:15]I'm glad I'm tapping into the theme, that's what.
[25:18]The theme of my morning this summer day.
[25:20]Yeah.
[25:21]Well, thank you so much for coming on most of no time
[25:23]to read books.
[25:24]I feel like I need to have an event now with you
[25:26]and maybe you were done this.
[25:27]And Julie sat out who wrote The Plaza.
[25:29]And then you could have like the Chelsea Hotel
[25:31]and the Plaza sort of dynamic with the conversation.
[25:34]Oh, I love that.
[25:36]Yeah, and how fantastic that book is just incredible
[25:39]and the research she did is,
[25:41]I mean, I've had so many people say to me,
[25:43]hey, have you heard of this book
[25:45]because you should write about the widows?
[25:47]Oh, interesting.
[25:49]Interesting.
[25:50]All right, well, maybe I'll get you guys,
[25:51]maybe we'll get that in the works as well.
[25:54]That's right, well, thank you.
[25:55]And thank you for everything you do to connect readers
[25:57]and authors.
[25:59]It means so much.
[26:00]And it's just so much fun to watch your success.
[26:01]You've been exploding, which is fantastic.
[26:04]Thank you, and that's so nice of you to say.
[26:06]Well, thanks for coming on.
[26:07]This is so fun.
[26:08]Thank you.
[26:09]Have a great day.
[26:11]Thanks again to my sponsor, Libro FM audio books.
[26:14]Thanks for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:17]You can follow me on Instagram at Moms Don't Have Time
[26:20]to Read Books and at Zibi Owens and my new podcast
[26:24]at Kids Do Have Time to Read.
[26:25]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[26:28]for the sound editing.
[26:29]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:31]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[26:34]Thanks for listening.
[26:35]You can always email me at zibiadzibiowans.com.