Catherine Price, HOW TO BREAK UP WITH YOUR PHONE
[0:09]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the Webby-nominated podcast,
[0:13]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Please also check out my other podcast,
[0:17]Kids Do Have Time to Read Books. I'm on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books,
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[0:30]my email is Zibi at Zibi Owens.com. Thanks for listening. Thanks so much to my
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[0:54]which is super cool. So please check them out mermaidpillowco.com. I'm excited to be talking to Katherine
[1:00]Price today over the phone. She is the author of Funny Enough, How to Break Up with Your Phone,
[1:06]which is being published in 26 countries and translated into 18 languages.
[1:11]An award-winning writer and science journalist, Katherine Swork has appeared in The New York Times,
[1:15]The LA Times, The Washington Post, O The Oprah Magazine, and many other publications.
[1:20]She's appeared in The Today Show, and other impressive outlets. Her previous books are
[1:24]Vitamania, How Vitamins Revolutionized the Way We Think About Food, 101 Places Not To See Before You Die,
[1:31]Mindfulness A Journal, and The Big Sur Bakery Cookbook. A graduate of Yale University,
[1:36]and UC Berkeley's Graduate School of Journalism, she currently lives with her family in Philadelphia.
[1:40]So welcome, Katherine. Thanks so much for coming on Monster and have time to read books.
[1:45]Thank you so much for having me. And, Katherine, this is like the craziest because you're the first
[1:49]person who I heard about your book and then realized that we had gone to high school together.
[1:55]Well, it was very funny when I heard about it as Bibi. I was like, I know as Bibi.
[1:59]I wonder how many there are that I saw a picture with like, oh my god.
[2:03]I know. I do indeed.
[2:04]I know. It's like, I know her. That's amazing.
[2:06]Anyway, so so exciting to hear of all the things that have you've accomplished in your life since
[2:12]we went to high school together. And it's so funny too, how if you don't see someone's picture,
[2:16]you might not recognize them from just their name. So anyway,
[2:20]right exactly. So can you please tell listeners what had to break up with your phone
[2:24]is about and what inspired you to write it?
[2:27]Yeah. So breaking up with your phone does not mean dumping your phone. I always like to clarify
[2:31]that right from the guest. So because otherwise people tend to freak out, say, oh my god, I could
[2:35]never do that. And basically it made it the same thing with a human relationship. If you
[2:39]break up with someone, you're not saying you're never going to date a human being again. You're
[2:42]just saying there's something that wasn't working in that relationship for you. And hopefully
[2:45]you're on to look out for a new relationship that's healthy and that feels right for you.
[2:50]So that's what we're aiming for here. It's a healthy relationship that you feel in control of.
[2:54]And boy, inspired me to write the book. I mean, a couple of things. I've
[2:57]been a science journalist and I tend to try to turn my own personal issues into professional
[3:02]projects because I'm not. And about four, I guess over four years ago, I'd had a baby and I
[3:09]was up with her one night over tired and maybe a little bit like the hallucinatory because I
[3:14]basically saw this scene as it would appear to be outside world, which was that I was sitting with
[3:19]her in my lap and she was looking at me. And I was looking down at my phone. If one must know,
[3:24]I was scrolling through eBay for antique doorknobs. True story because I just say, yeah, we can
[3:29]discuss that. But anyway, but I realize like, you know, that's really not what I want my experience
[3:36]with her to be like. And it's really not how I want her to be experiencing her relationship with
[3:40]her mom. It's for her to be looking at me and me to be looking down at my phone. And the science
[3:44]journals to me also recognize that babies focal, they're eyes are developed just so that they can
[3:50]see as far as their parents face if you're holding them in their arms as a way to actually
[3:54]foster emotional connections. So from an actual scientific evolutionary point,
[3:59]I also realize, oh, wait, you know, I don't want this to be a habit that I get into where
[4:04]I'm not meeting her gaze. And basically she's only able to look at my face.
[4:08]Right. So anyway, yeah, so I look into like all the
[4:11]material I could find about phones and technology. And at that point, it was like 2015,
[4:16]there wasn't really that much out there. And then what I did find was really
[4:19]concerning, but it didn't have any actionable stuff in it. Like there'd be always be like one page
[4:24]of tips and tricks. So I was left kind of feeling depressed and out of control and then powerless.
[4:29]So my hope was to write a book that would combine a look at the science and an easy to read.
[4:34]Almost. I mean, I tried to make a fun format with an actual plan that people could use to
[4:39]begin to change their behaviors. And again, it's not about not using your phone. It's about a mindful
[4:43]relationship. You did make it fun. There are a number of things I really like about this book.
[4:48]One is that it is not that long. It's like compact and small and feels manageable. We were just
[4:54]talking about friends who, you know, it's how hard it is to find time to read of course.
[4:58]And this book does not take that long to read. So that's amazing. And it's so
[5:02]else I was like, right? Isn't it goal? Yeah. So I was trying to make it short because I realized
[5:07]that people unfortunately for us writers, people don't really read books as much as they used to
[5:12]in part because of our phones. And so I didn't want to have, you know, a few hundred or three or
[5:16]three hundred page books that would make people feel burdened. I really wanted to give them
[5:20]something easy to read and easy to act on. Yeah. I feel like maybe publishers think like
[5:25]they're not giving people enough if the book's not long enough. But I feel like as a consumer,
[5:29]the exact opposite way. Like I read the book, like I can cross off reading a book off my list.
[5:35]And now I feel better about myself. And I've gotten all this amazing information inside it. So
[5:39]anyway, that's a very good point actually. It's because you like the self-esteem boost. They
[5:43]totally don't think about our self-esteem when they publish very long books. Right? It's really
[5:47]big. They like pamphlets. These would be publishing pamphlets. And then everyone can check them
[5:51]off their list and feel very accomplished. I mean, I feel some books I should get a medal for
[5:55]finishing. I'm like, I want to like scream it from the rooftops. Like I just finished this 500-page
[6:01]book because anyone can do anything. I could have read two other books, but I didn't.
[6:06]I think I'd like anything by raunchy right now. You're like, I deserve a medal. This is
[6:09]very long. Totally. That's like, yeah. I've actually been carrying power broke around with me for
[6:15]over 10 years. I actually, the Robert Caro book. Yes. It's so big that I actually ripped it into pieces
[6:20]just so I could carry around manageable chunks. But I still haven't finished. I have to do little
[6:24]tricks like that. I have to be like, I'm not going to read this whole book. I'm going to read
[6:27]the first half. And then I'm going to reassess. And like, then I get to the first half. Anyway,
[6:32]I'm getting off topic. But point is, I'm glad that your book is a perfect length, especially for
[6:38]moms. And I love the cover, the yellow and blue and white little text bubbles and everything.
[6:43]But more than the format and the physicality of the book is the content of the book, which is
[6:48]super helpful. And the thing I want you to talk more about it. But just for other people,
[6:54]it's so consumable and actionable. Like, I actually feel like I can do what you said. And I don't
[7:00]feel like you were preaching to me about what I have to do. But just like, nicely suggesting it
[7:05]from a point of understanding. So I just wanted to personally thank you for that because now I'm
[7:10]going to take these suggestions to heart. Oh, great. That is exactly what I would hope. And that
[7:13]makes me very happy to hear. And obviously, people agree with me because the article you wrote
[7:18]in The New York Times, which was called Do Not Disturb, how I ditched my phone and unbroke my brain,
[7:22]got two million views in four days, the first four days. How crazy is that? Were you like freaking out?
[7:28]Yes. So that was actually, it was an article that this guy Kevin Rooster wrote about me coaching
[7:32]him a true phone breakup. So basically, I'm just a funny story because as a, you know,
[7:36]he was a freelance writer as well. Like, you're constantly pitching people. And so I'd written to
[7:40]Kevin Rooster, I don't know. Like, when my book came out a year and a half ago, and he
[7:44]wrote back and said, Oh, sounds interesting, but I'm really busy right now, you know, keep in touch.
[7:48]And I was like, never till a freelance writer to keep in touch because we will.
[7:52]We corresponded several times over the course of the year. And then there was one night,
[7:55]I think in like December where I got this email from him out of the blue that said,
[7:59]you know, I reached a breaking point. I really need your help for the sake of my mental health.
[8:03]And you know, my sanity and my relationships and everything. Like, I just need help with my
[8:08]phone. And I later asked him like, what was that moment that made you contact me? And he said,
[8:12]he was at an Alvin Ailey performance with his wife. And he realized he had snuck out,
[8:17]quote, use the bathroom. But in fact, he was just going to check his phone. And then he,
[8:20]I think he emailed me on the way home. So anyway, I helped him through this 30 day process that I
[8:26]outlined in the book of breaking up with his phone and trying to get more control. And I was
[8:30]getting nervous when I work with people who are like, you know, technology experts. It's like,
[8:34]he's tried a lot of stuff before. And he also needs to use technology for work. So it's a real
[8:39]challenge. And so it was really fun to see that actually he was able to make a lot of changes.
[8:43]And he ended up writing those articles that when you mentioned called do not disturb.
[8:47]And it was truly insane. He said he'd never gotten as many responses from readers to any article he'd
[8:52]ever written. And as you said, I went over a 4 million reads within the first, I think that was
[8:56]just in the first 48 hours. And then was like on the top of all the list for a number of days. And
[9:01]so I thought, wow, that's really pretty amazing that I think that speaks to the fact that people are
[9:06]really waking up to this being an issue and looking for help. And also he's just a really funny
[9:10]great writer. So I recommend people check out that article just because he's it's fun to read.
[9:14]So in your introduction, you pointed out that smartphones have infiltrated our life so thoroughly
[9:20]in the past decade that we never really stopped to consider like, what do we want our relationship
[9:24]with them to look like? We just sort of accepted it and moved on. So tell me, tell me more about that.
[9:29]Well, yeah, it's kind of like if you were dating the same guy from high school and like never
[9:33]actually asked yourself if you wanted to continue that, you know, like something you're 25
[9:37]and you're about to get married and you're like, wait, I'm not actually sure if we're still
[9:40]compatible or like how did this happen? It just kind of happened without me really realizing it.
[9:43]And similarly, we were also excited about smartphones when they came out. We immediately got them
[9:48]and to apps started to multiply. And before we realized really what was happening, it went
[9:54]from kind of like a pleasurable past time or a real productive tool to something that we just
[10:00]in some cases, hundreds of times a day,
[10:02]and end up feeling that we're not really in control.
[10:05]I mean, you know how many times
[10:06]if you look down at your hand
[10:07]and realize your phone's there,
[10:08]you have no idea how it got there.
[10:09]You have no idea why you're in, you know,
[10:10]Instagram or email or whatever.
[10:12]And 45 minutes have passed.
[10:14]So what I realized is that,
[10:16]oh wow, we really actually should be taking a step back
[10:18]as a society and as individuals
[10:20]and asking ourselves like,
[10:21]what role do we want phones
[10:22]and a broader sense of technology to play in our lives?
[10:25]Because phones are just one technology.
[10:27]I mean, they're probably gonna be pretty outdated soon
[10:29]because you have to type with your phones and stuff.
[10:31]But how do we want to interact with technology
[10:33]and what steps do we need to take
[10:34]to make sure that we have healthy relationships?
[10:36]So this is not how to break up with your phone
[10:38]and replace it with your iPad.
[10:40]That doesn't count.
[10:42]I don't people ask you that.
[10:43]I'm like, yeah, that's that's cheating.
[10:45]The iPad is at least you're not carrying it in your pocket.
[10:48]And that's part of the issue.
[10:49]Like when addiction psychiatrists talk about addictions,
[10:52]they talk about ease of access.
[10:53]Like the easier it is to access your problematic substance,
[10:56]the more likely you are to abuse it.
[10:58]The good part about iPad is you're probably not gonna be
[11:01]checking them in the elevator, right?
[11:02]But then of course, before Ben becomes an issue.
[11:06]I actually, speaking of mental health professionals,
[11:09]I took the quiz in the book
[11:10]for how addicted you are to your phone.
[11:12]And it said, just go see a psychologist right away.
[11:15]Yeah, so the thing called the smartphone compulsion test
[11:19]that this guy, Dr. David Greenfield created
[11:21]who, this guy created the Center for Internet
[11:23]and Technology Addiction back in 1998,
[11:25]which is so prescient.
[11:26]But he made this smartphone compulsion test.
[11:28]And as he himself will say, like, if you have a smartphone,
[11:30]you're going to fail the test because basically,
[11:32]it's like it highlights behaviors that we do all the time
[11:36]and that it becomes so commonplace that they think normal
[11:38]until you take a step back and you realize
[11:39]that's not normal at all.
[11:40]Like feeling anxious if you're separated from your phone
[11:43]for more than a few minutes or always having your phone
[11:45]or your place that he's during meals
[11:47]or like sleeping with it next to your bed
[11:49]or mindlessly swiping through apps
[11:51]like for hours at a time, you know?
[11:53]At first you're like, yeah, of course.
[11:55]And then you realize, oh wait,
[11:56]it's actually strange.
[11:57]If you swap in any other technology
[11:59]or really anything else, it would just be,
[12:01]like even if you would have your coffee cup near you
[12:03]as much as we do our phones, like that's weird.
[12:05]And particularly weird is when you said
[12:09]that one in 10 Americans admit to checking their phones
[12:11]during sex.
[12:13]So I was like, what, what part of sex?
[12:15]Like, what, when are they doing this?
[12:17]I know, I don't know when.
[12:19]I know that I really want to know,
[12:20]I don't really want to know, but.
[12:22]I did some interview with an Australian group
[12:25]and they thought I was saying I had done that research
[12:27]and I was like, no, no, no, no.
[12:29]There's like healthy about this research
[12:30]that you did about Americans and sex and phones.
[12:32]I'm like, nope, nope, not intruding in upon people's bedrooms.
[12:35]But yeah, I mean, I think all of that just sticks
[12:38]the fact that we're allowing them
[12:39]into very intimate moments where if you actually think
[12:42]about it, it's really weird.
[12:43]And sex is one where it actually does still seem weird
[12:47]thankfully, but I mean, I've spoken to people
[12:49]who have told me about issues.
[12:51]One guy in particular about like post-cortal moments
[12:54]where his girlfriend caught him reaching for his phone,
[12:56]which was under her pillow,
[12:57]and then he had to play it off like he was stroking her hair.
[13:00]And she totally knew what he was up to
[13:02]and got very upset about it.
[13:04]Oh, my goodness.
[13:06]You're your concept in the book, by the way,
[13:07]of Fubbing with a PH, PH, U, B, B, I, and G,
[13:11]which is like phone snubbing someone else is so perfect
[13:14]because that's sort of what makes me take stock
[13:17]of my own habits is when I feel sort of rejected by somebody
[13:21]because of their phone habits.
[13:23]So like if my husband is on his phone,
[13:26]I feel like offended and he's like,
[13:27]you're on your phone all the time.
[13:29]And it somehow feels bad being on the other side.
[13:33]And even my mother, who's like in her 70s,
[13:35]when I see her and we're like taking the kids to somewhere
[13:38]and she's on her phone, I'm like, what?
[13:41]I don't know, I feel so personal.
[13:43]So I feel like I at least try to remember
[13:45]how I must be making other people feel of that's the way
[13:48]I feel.
[13:48]Do you have that sensitivity too?
[13:50]Yes, yeah.
[13:51]I don't know who came up with the term Fubbing,
[13:53]but yeah, it's short for phone snubbing.
[13:54]And I think one way to really take stock
[13:57]of your own phone relationship and kind of,
[14:00]like I think we all just need a little wake up calls
[14:02]or just like the experience I had
[14:04]that I described with my daughter that night.
[14:05]That for me was a real wake up call where I was like,
[14:07]wait, what about this is weird?
[14:09]And similarly, if you often encourage people
[14:12]to just spend a day trying not to fub anybody
[14:14]and noticing when that happens with other people
[14:17]and just doing that for a day just observing
[14:19]can be very illuminating
[14:20]because you'll start to notice how often
[14:22]either you're probably tempted to pull out
[14:24]your phone in the middle of a conversation
[14:25]or someone does it to you or if you look around the world
[14:28]around you and you notice tables of people
[14:30]where they're not really engaging with each other
[14:32]all in their respective phones.
[14:34]You start to realize like this is kind of strange.
[14:36]And again, with any other technology or anything else,
[14:39]they would be undeniably rude.
[14:40]Like if someone had a book that they were carrying around
[14:42]and you're in the middle of the conversation
[14:44]and they just were like, uh-huh, and pulled out their book
[14:46]and just like red half the page,
[14:48]acting like they're looking at you
[14:49]and then put their book down.
[14:50]You'd be like, what do you do?
[14:52]I was really weird and rude,
[14:53]but we do that all the time with our phones
[14:55]and I would like to suggest that that is very rude
[14:58]and also, I mean, it is true.
[15:00]It is reducing the quality,
[15:02]perceived quality of our interactions
[15:03]and getting in the way of relationships.
[15:05]I mean, sometimes I feel like a couple of counselor
[15:07]because people are real, I don't know.
[15:10]I try to make light of it, but this is a real issue
[15:12]that's affecting people's relationships
[15:14]and brains, frankly, and our experience of our own lives.
[15:18]So I think that anything we can do
[15:19]to raise our own awareness
[15:21]and raise other people's awareness of this is very worthwhile.
[15:24]Oh, for sure, it's super important.
[15:26]And just to your point about sort of the bad manners of it,
[15:29]for a while, I, to get myself to not check email so much.
[15:33]I was like, is this a situation where I would be able
[15:36]to check regular mail?
[15:38]Like, could I pull a stack of my mail out of my purse,
[15:41]like my bills and my letters?
[15:42]Or would that be really weird?
[15:44]Because that's essentially what I'm doing
[15:45]in front of this person now, right?
[15:47]So that's like the test I use, so.
[15:50]And that's like a worst insult to your, like, yeah,
[15:52]what you're saying is so uninteresting
[15:54]that I'd rather be paying a utility bill.
[15:56]Exactly, exactly.
[15:58]And I'm not even paying it looking at it,
[15:59]but even worse, like not even taking action
[16:01]just being aware of it.
[16:02]Okay, great.
[16:03]And then like, what were you saying?
[16:04]Yeah, and by the way, kids pick up on this so much.
[16:07]There was a, there was a special that Diane Sawyer did
[16:10]that aired, I believe in April.
[16:11]I was called Screen Time, and I really recommend
[16:14]people check it out even if just for the first half hour
[16:16]because they featured this experiment
[16:18]that these researchers did where they had parents come
[16:20]into a room with their kids and play with Legos
[16:22]for, I don't know, 10 minutes or so,
[16:24]but in the middle of it, the parents were asked
[16:26]to pull out their phones and just interact
[16:28]with the phones for two minutes and just ignore their,
[16:30]I mean, basically do what we do all the time.
[16:32]And then they had cameras in the room showing
[16:34]the children's reaction.
[16:35]And I think that the producers must have deliberately,
[16:37]like, it's a segment in the piece that goes on longer
[16:40]than it would need to to just make a point.
[16:42]And I think it was really to drive a point home
[16:44]because you watch how the kids respond
[16:46]and it's just so poignant.
[16:48]And I don't mean like, you know, obviously,
[16:50]we have to check our phones sometimes.
[16:51]I'm not like parent shaming, but I think that it's really
[16:53]interesting and painful to watch
[16:57]because you see these kids completely
[16:59]that their entire physical being changes
[17:01]as soon as the parent reaches for the phone,
[17:03]they became disinterested in the toys,
[17:05]or they'll try to make these repeated pleas
[17:06]for the parent's attention.
[17:08]One little girl just sits in a chair
[17:09]and folds her hands and her lap and weights.
[17:11]You know, it's really, it's really hard to watch.
[17:13]And at the end, they interview some of the people
[17:15]who are in the experiment.
[17:16]And they said, you know, having watched those videos,
[17:18]I'm definitely going to change my habits
[17:19]because I had no idea that it was having
[17:21]this impact on my kids.
[17:22]So anyway, it's pretty powerful that I would recommend
[17:26]keep watching it and not to like make yourself feel bad
[17:28]about yourself.
[17:29]But just as a really useful reminder that like the way
[17:31]we use our phones affects other people in our lives
[17:33]and particularly our children.
[17:35]And they don't always have the mean
[17:36]the ability to speak up for themselves about it.
[17:39]Oh, thank you for that little dose of guilt.
[17:42]I know you didn't mean it that way,
[17:45]but you're absolutely right.
[17:46]I mean, you're right, you're right.
[17:47]So the good news is we all buy the whole concept
[17:51]that we are too addicted to our phones.
[17:53]And honestly, the screen time alerts now
[17:55]that automatically come up with how much time
[17:57]you're spending on your phone for me at least
[17:59]are enough to be like, oh my gosh, like four hours
[18:01]are you kidding?
[18:02]I could read like a book a day at that rate.
[18:03]So you have this 30 day plan to cure ourselves
[18:07]or at least manage our addictions.
[18:09]What do you think are the most important steps in that?
[18:11]Well, I think one of the most important
[18:13]is to not beat ourselves up over it.
[18:14]Like what done is done, right?
[18:16]Like you can't change what you did in the past.
[18:18]And then also the phones and apps
[18:20]are deliberately designed to be very difficult
[18:23]to have healthy relationships with
[18:25]because that's how they make money.
[18:26]So like Instagram is making money
[18:28]when you scroll through it for two reasons.
[18:31]First, it's an advertising based app.
[18:33]So they get to show you sponsored posts.
[18:35]And then also they collect all sorts of data about you
[18:37]that then can use to create really targeted audiences
[18:40]to show those ads too.
[18:41]And it's not just what you do on Instagram,
[18:42]like what you look or what you like.
[18:44]It's like how long you linger on each picture
[18:46]in many cases, Facebook, which owns Instagram.
[18:47]They follow you around the web.
[18:49]So they've got cookies on all these websites.
[18:50]Anywhere, it is like a Facebook like button
[18:52]so that they know the steps that you took
[18:54]before you did something else.
[18:56]So they know that you looked at this site
[18:57]and that site and that site and then you bought this thing.
[18:59]So anyway, so I say that as a way
[19:02]to just make people recognize that we're all being manipulated
[19:06]by people whose entire purpose is to steal our time
[19:09]and attention from us.
[19:11]So we should not feel bad about the fact
[19:13]that it is hard for us to control ourselves
[19:15]on the devices.
[19:16]And I would argue we also should be pretty angry,
[19:18]frankly, at those apps for taking what could be
[19:21]a truly pleasurable, useful, and enjoyable experience.
[19:24]And then adding this potential dark side
[19:26]where it's interference are interaction with our kids.
[19:29]So that's kind of a preamble.
[19:31]I think one of the most important things to do to start with
[19:33]is just to become more aware of your own habit.
[19:35]So that you can't change a habit
[19:36]if you don't even realize you have the habit.
[19:38]So if you don't realize that you are pulling your phone out
[19:41]any time there's a spare moment,
[19:43]and there's no way that you're gonna change any of that.
[19:45]And in the case of that New York Times reporter,
[19:46]he realized that he would pull out his phone
[19:49]in the three or four seconds
[19:51]it would take for his credit card to process
[19:52]when he went downstairs to buy a snack.
[19:54]And he's like, what am I possibly joined
[19:56]during those three or four seconds?
[19:57]Nothing, but why am I doing it?
[19:58]So just notice.
[20:00]that he was doing it, then gives him a chance to ask himself, do I want to be engaging in that
[20:04]habit? So the first thing I really recommend people do is try to start catching yourself when
[20:08]you reach for your phone on autopilot and don't judge it, just notice it. And one thing you can do
[20:13]to make that easier is put a rubber band around your phone so when you reach for your phone and
[20:16]feel the rubber band and you're like, why's that there? You can actually say, oh, it's because I
[20:20]was supposed to notice that I just did that. And another thing is you can change your lock screen
[20:24]images. So I made these lock screen images. People can download at phonebreakup.com and they say
[20:29]things like, why did you pick me up right now? Or, you know, what for? Why now? What else? Like,
[20:34]little, I call them speed bumps that help people take a pause so that they then can decide
[20:40]consciously whether they want to use their phone and that's really the goal, right? It's conscious
[20:43]usage. It's knowing that when you are using your phone, you are aware of it and you feel good
[20:48]about what you're doing. Yeah, you wrote on this little handout card to give about screen life
[20:53]balance. You said your life is what you pay attention to and once you spend your attention,
[20:57]you can never get it back, which I loved because it's not like you have this unending
[21:02]store of it, right? You only have what you can do. Anyway, it's a good reminder. Yeah. Well,
[21:07]I like to think about it like it's a budget just in the same way that you have a budget for money and
[21:11]you know that your finances are finite, right? Like our attention is also finite. Excuse me,
[21:16]we can only pay attention to one thing at a time. So if you think about your day's attention,
[21:20]24 hours of attention and you know what one of the other first things I recommend people do
[21:25]is ask yourself what do you want to pay attention to? Because if we don't decide that proactively,
[21:30]our devices and other people in our lives and other forces are going to make that decision for you.
[21:35]So if you decide, for example, you want to spend time and attention reading a book or playing
[21:40]with your kids or doing work, whatever it is, then since it's zero sum by definition, you're going
[21:45]to have to take that attention away from something else if that makes any sense. So I really
[21:49]recommend people thinking about their attention as kind of this pie chart and then figuring out
[21:53]what the big pieces are and then you're going to recognize that then you cannot spend as much time,
[21:59]you know, mindlessly scrolling through Instagram if you want to also have the time to read a
[22:02]book, for example, to really thinking about it as a budget with limited resources can be helpful.
[22:07]And I also like your suggestion of doing what you call the digital Sabbath where you take a
[22:11]set amount of time, maybe Saturdays or something and just put the phones away and spend the time
[22:17]with your partner or your kids or something and just see how that goes.
[22:21]Yeah, this is something that my husband and I tried right at the beginning of this project.
[22:25]So once I had my little late night revelation, then I was talking to my husband about it and we
[22:29]realized, yeah, we both have pretty mindless relationships with our phones, which was particularly
[22:33]ironic given that he and I have gone to mindfulness training courses and I wrote a mindfulness
[22:38]journal like really trying to be aware of stuff. And so when we recognize that we wanted to work
[22:44]on our own habits, we thought, well, one idea we could start with is just to try to take 24 hours
[22:49]away from our devices. I mean, that doesn't, it shouldn't be that radical of an idea, but probably
[22:53]some people listening to this have already thought to themselves, I could never do that, like good
[22:57]for her, but I could never do that. And so, and I've got suggestions for how you can do that.
[23:01]But anyway, what we did is turned our phones entirely off for 24 hours from Friday to Saturday
[23:06]and I've censored from hundreds of not thousands of people who have tried this for themselves.
[23:11]And universally, it's so interesting. The first reaction is this, like intense twitching
[23:15]this and cravings where you start to notice, they're like every 30 seconds. If not more frequently,
[23:20]you want to look something up, you want to buy something, you want to check something.
[23:23]And then when you wake up the next morning, time seems to slow down and some of that twitching
[23:28]of subsides, which is so interesting. It's a real psychological thing, screens make time speed up.
[23:33]So if you want to gain time in your life, an easy thing to do is take a break from your phone.
[23:37]And also, people felt a sense of calm that was really surprising and unexpected.
[23:42]And I've hypothesized that that's actually because when you're constantly tethered to your phone
[23:47]and checking notifications and getting interrupted, it's actually increasing our stress levels.
[23:51]So when you truly in the form of increased levels of stress hormones, like cortisol,
[23:55]and when you take that constant stimulation away, it actually does change us physiologically
[24:01]in a way that feels really pleasant. So what I've experienced myself and heard from a lot of other
[24:05]people too is that what starts out is this totally like anxiety producing a provoking idea,
[24:10]ends up being an experiment that people want to continue. And in some cases, they don't
[24:14]want to turn their phone back on after the 24 hours. But anyway, I often recommend it as a way
[24:18]to kind of jumpstart. If you really want to like dive in and get started, especially if there's
[24:24]someone in your life who's resistant, say, oh yeah, I heard this crazy woman talking on the podcast.
[24:29]It's just that we take a 24 hour break because it's only 24 hours. Like, let's just do that,
[24:34]notice what happens. And they might provoke a fight. I don't know. I mean, it might be pretty dramatic,
[24:38]like, results, but that's all really interesting input that you can then talk about.
[24:42]Or, you know, why was it so hard for everybody to do that? Or now that we have taken a break,
[24:48]again, like I always like to emphasize that you should find positive things to fill the time with,
[24:52]because you want to make sure you've got plans, otherwise you're going to all end up sitting around
[24:55]kind of being like, what are we going to do with ourselves? But people end up having really nice
[24:59]experiences with their families or their partners and friends. So how can we take what we learn
[25:04]during those 24 hours and apply it to our normal lives as well? What can we learn from this? We can
[25:09]take going forward because it doesn't. My point is never that people should have a total abstinence
[25:14]from their phones because I think that's completely unrealistic for 99.99% of people. It's really
[25:20]about just being more mindful about how and when we're using them. Totally. I mean, these are
[25:24]and I think that this also dovetails so well with finding more time to read, which is my whole thing,
[25:30]because, you know, reading, I think has so many benefits and yet it's so hard to fit in.
[25:35]If you could take some of the time away from the phone and devote it to reading, you know,
[25:40]that's it right there. I think that's what takes up so much, not that's the only thing.
[25:44]They're eight zillion things that take up mom's time, but I don't know. This is a big chunk of it.
[25:49]And, you know, if you can go through your 30 day program and then see how many books could you
[25:55]read while you're going through this detox plan. That was a crazy thing with the New York Times
[25:59]reporter. He read like 12 books. I mean, he also was an exceptional person, but he put like 12 books
[26:03]in like three weeks or four weeks or whatever. So I mean, yes, several things about that. I think that
[26:07]reading is such a perfect example to use in this case. First of all, the average person spending
[26:12]four is a day on their phone. And, you know, a lot of that is in little chunks of time, like five
[26:17]minutes. But it adds up. If you do the math at 60 full days a year, which is a sixth of our time
[26:22]alive, which itself is actually terrifying. But if you think about that amount of time,
[26:26]you could definitely read more books there. You know, it's about what we're actually prioritizing.
[26:31]And again, phones are designed to fill up our time unless we proactively create boundaries
[26:37]for ourselves. So one thing I would suggest to people is that if you know you want to read more,
[26:41]you need to get your phone out of your bedroom and get an alarm clock, right? So set up a consistent
[26:46]charging station. It's not in your bedroom. If you're worried about missing a call, just turn the
[26:49]ringer on. I always forget it myself. It's like I have it on silent all the time. I forget it.
[26:53]Actually, it's a phone with a ringing function to turn that up at night that you don't have to
[26:57]worry about missing an emergency call, right? Or you could set your do not disturb settings to
[27:01]just allow the people that you care about. But in any case, get it out of your bedroom. But then
[27:05]very importantly, put a book on your bedside table that you want to read. Because when you're trying
[27:10]to change a habit, you want to make it hard to engage in the habits that you want to change.
[27:14]And then as easy as possible to engage in the ones that you're trying to pick up.
[27:18]And in the case of reading, it's an easy way to set up your environment. Like it's an easy one to
[27:23]help prime yourself to do more. Because all you need to do is put that on your bedside table so that
[27:27]when you're going to bed and you instinctively reach for your phone, because it probably normally is
[27:31]there and you reach for you encounter the book, you're like, oh, right. I said I wanted to read
[27:36]and I got to get out of my bed and walk out of the bedroom to get the phone. And I might as well
[27:41]just read the book. So that's a good way to start for people who want to experiment. Also, just
[27:46]carry a book around with you is another idea. And then also, in terms of why it's really important,
[27:52]our phones are definitely affecting our attention spans. So when you're on your phone, you're essentially
[27:57]splitting between multiple things very quickly. You're like going between apps or even within an
[28:02]app. You're looking at multiple posts and social media or multiple emails, each of which takes
[28:06]your brain in a slightly different direction and has a different emotional tone to it. And that really
[28:11]is training our brains to be better at splitting quickly between things. And evolutionarily,
[28:16]that's actually what they prefer to do, because that little rustle in the leaves in your peripheral
[28:21]vision, which now we might call it distraction, that actually could indicate a threat, like a physical
[28:26]threat to you. And one example I always used as I was actually mugged while I was on my phone,
[28:30]not that I actually wasn't even looking at it. I was talking to my husband, but I was distracted
[28:33]from my surroundings, didn't see a guy walking towards me with a gun and got mugged for it.
[28:37]What? So yeah, yeah, which is, you know, an extreme example, but my point being that our brains
[28:43]like are actually designed to be more primed distractions. So it's truly amazing that we are able
[28:49]to read. So like everyone listening, give ourselves a pat on the back. It's crazy that we're able
[28:53]to concentrate on one thing at a time, ignore everything else in our environment, and then make sense
[28:59]that it's simple on a page. It's like crazy. So our brains don't really want to do that. And when
[29:04]you're on your phone and you're flipping between all these things, you're essentially undoing
[29:07]all this hard work that you put in over the course of your life to make yourself able to do that.
[29:12]So if you feel like you haven't read a book in a long time, you feel like you can't even read more
[29:16]than a page without being distracted. And you think it's your kids, it might partially be your kids
[29:21]and being a mom, but I can assure you that it is also partially because we're training our brains
[29:25]on our phones to be that way. And the good news is you actually can reverse that. It does take
[29:30]conscious effort. I always recommend people set a timer, not on their phone, and just read.
[29:36]I'm interrupted for that amount of time. Just to show yourself, A, that it's bizarrely hard,
[29:40]and then B, that you can do it. And it doesn't take too long to build up the ability to do it again.
[29:45]But we do need to, it's like, you know, getting in shape with the gym. It's much easier to get out
[29:49]of shape than it is to get in shape, especially if you had a personal trainer who is basically
[29:53]telling you to eat junk food on a couch. And so reading actually for so many reasons is actually an
[29:58]excellent way.
[30:00]to, I don't know, readjust your relationship with your phone and begin to truly make physical
[30:05]changes to your brain that will have effects and all sorts of other areas of your life as
[30:09]well.
[30:10]I'm making me more, be more present because you'll be able to actually maintain your attention
[30:14]on one thing at a time where right now most of us really can't.
[30:17]I was literally, I used the same analogy talking to another mom at Pickup yesterday about
[30:21]how it's like the gym because she was like, I just used to be so easy for me to read
[30:24]and now it just, you know, I only read a page here or there and then I give up and I'm
[30:29]like, no, it's like, you have to get back in the habit and back in the practice
[30:33]before you feel some of the benefits.
[30:35]Like now that I'm reading so much, which I've convinced myself to do now that I've tried
[30:39]to make this kind of like something I have to do, I have to do something I love.
[30:43]Like the benefits from reading for me right now are enormous.
[30:46]I am so into it, it helps my life in so many ways.
[30:50]But when I was so scattered before, I feel like it was hard to access that.
[30:54]So I don't know.
[30:55]You have to just really give it a little time and it will pay off in huge ways.
[30:59]I'd be interested in what kind of benefits have you found in unexpected areas of your
[31:03]life from picking up reading again?
[31:05]I feel like I'm even more in tune with other people, right?
[31:11]Like the empathy quotient, which obviously it's just like part of myself, but now that
[31:14]I'm reading so much and I'm constantly in other people's heads, I'm just like primed
[31:20]to sort of not like peek into people's minds, but just like I just feel so connected
[31:25]to other people.
[31:26]That sounds ridiculous.
[31:27]But also, just getting the peace for myself and the escape from my own crazy stuff in
[31:34]my own head, right?
[31:35]Like I'm like a pretty anxious person and when I'm reading it's the only time that I don't
[31:40]think about anything, I don't pick up my phone.
[31:43]That is the only thing I'm doing and I get such a charge, it gives me energy to do everything
[31:49]else I need to do.
[31:50]Yeah.
[31:51]I think it's so interesting to compare that with some of the other things we do supposedly
[31:55]for entertainment or to suit ourselves, because I mean I would argue we definitely use
[31:59]our phones like drugs in the sense of if you use a drug to how to stimulate yourself
[32:02]or calm something that like avoid unpleasant emotions, right?
[32:07]And when you turn to your phone for that, how do you end up feeling afterwards versus
[32:10]turning to a book like you're saying?
[32:12]I mean it's so interesting, there's just such a nourishing feeling that comes after you
[32:16]finish reading.
[32:17]I think it's partially because you get into a state of flow in your brain and also it's
[32:21]really relaxing and rejuvenating to just do one thing at a time.
[32:25]I think that a lot of our modern stress comes from the fact that we're trying to put too
[32:30]many things into our working memories, which is basically the part of your brain that's
[32:34]able to remember like, you know, names of people at a cocktail party and there's a really
[32:37]famous experiment called the magic number five, plus number two, seven.
[32:41]Magic number seven, plus or minus two, which is basically the idea that we can hold
[32:44]between five and nine things in our working memory at any time and then we totally get
[32:48]overwhelmed.
[32:49]More recent estimates are more like two or four, which you can see if you meet people
[32:52]at a cocktail party and you're like, okay, two or four people probably will remember
[32:55]their names for the conversation, anything more than that than you start to have a little
[32:59]panic.
[33:00]And so I think that personally like much of our stress of daily life is trying to put
[33:04]too much stuff into that working memory and our phones are compounding that problem to ridiculous
[33:09]degrees where there's so much information that we get any time we open the phone,
[33:13]even just looking at the home screen because it's got all those apps on it that's really
[33:16]overstimulating to our working memories.
[33:18]So when you read a book and you get lost in a book and you're just allowing your brain
[33:22]to just get totally absorbed in one thing, I think it really is very restorative on the,
[33:27]you know, in our brains themselves.
[33:29]Totally.
[33:30]Well, thank you for that public service announcement on reading as well.
[33:32]That was so helpful.
[33:35]I think we're almost out of time and I had so much more I wanted to ask, but thank you so
[33:38]much for coming on.
[33:39]I just want to know like what advice would you have to someone attempting to write a book
[33:44]like this?
[33:45]In particular?
[33:46]Yeah.
[33:47]You're just in general.
[33:48]Let's just say writing in general.
[33:50]Well, writing in general, okay, I would say kindness to the phones that creativity,
[33:55]anyone who's tried to do anything creative, which probably everybody left me to this
[33:59]says, no, it's such a difficult, I don't know, it like comes in little spurts.
[34:04]You never know when it's going to strike and you have to kind of like make sure to take
[34:07]advantage of it when it's there.
[34:09]And if you've got something that's constantly dragging your attention and your time from
[34:14]you, such as your phone, you're basically letting it kind of steal your creativity from
[34:18]you in little dribs and drabs.
[34:20]I don't know if that's an expression my husband always says that, but dribs and drabs
[34:22]when you're like, you know, posting stuff on Instagram and you're like thinking about
[34:25]a clever caption.
[34:26]Well, that's your creativity that you're spending spending something that's totally
[34:29]ephemeral and you're doing it just so you can get like a pixelated like from someone
[34:32]on the internet, which is fine if you actually want to do that.
[34:35]But if you're trying to write a book, I would say that one important thing to do would
[34:38]be to guard your attention.
[34:41]And things do would be to really watch out for the way that your phone is interfering
[34:44]with it.
[34:45]Because frankly, you're never going to get it done if you're also sitting next to your
[34:49]phone.
[34:50]And I personally use things like app blockers, such as freedom is a really great one that
[34:54]works on both Android and iOS and Windows products that allows you to block certain websites
[35:00]across devices for particular periods of time so that you actually can't indulge in your
[35:05]natural desire to switch over and just check something quote unquote for just a second.
[35:09]So I really recommend using technology tools to help protect yourself from technology so
[35:15]that you have any chance of giving your brain the space it needs to be able to produce a
[35:20]creative work.
[35:21]I mean, I sat down to write something yesterday and I've been writing shorter things
[35:24]recently.
[35:25]I sat down to write something like a would-be blog post, I was like, oh, writing is hard.
[35:30]Anyone know that?
[35:31]So anyway, I think like structuring your environment both on and offline to really protect
[35:36]mental space and to frankly like cage yourself in so that you can't, your mind is going
[35:41]to want to go for those distractions so you've got to figure out a way to block yourself
[35:45]from that.
[35:46]Another tool I use that is really helpful for anyone out there with email issues is
[35:49]called inbox when ready and it works for Gmail.
[35:52]I think outlook and it basically, it hides your inbox from you and hides the number of
[35:57]new messages from you so that you can go in an email and write an email without seeing
[36:02]everything else waiting for you and you can search for an email without seeing everything
[36:05]else waiting for you.
[36:06]But it sounds like such a simple idea that wouldn't be profound but there's no way I could
[36:11]have written my book without this plugin because I didn't realize how just seeing the
[36:14]number of messages in the tab on my browser was actually extremely distracting.
[36:19]So I recommend people check out, yeah, inbox when ready and freedom in terms of technological
[36:23]tools to give yourself a bit more mental space so that you can focus on creating something
[36:28]like a book.
[36:29]Love it.
[36:30]Thank you.
[36:31]Super helpful in every way.
[36:32]Thank you so much for coming on Moms in a time to read books and thank you for everything
[36:36]you've done to help so many of us.
[36:37]Well, thank you so much for having me.
[36:38]It was really a pleasure.
[36:39]Oh, good.
[36:40]All right.
[36:41]Take care.
[36:43]Thanks again to my sponsor, Mermaid Pilloko, mermaid pillowco.com slash zibby and her code
[36:51]zibby for 10% off.
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[36:57]Thanks for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[36:59]You can follow me on Instagram at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books and at zibby Owens
[37:05]and my new podcast at Kids Do Have Time to Read.
[37:08]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing and thank you
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[37:16]Thanks for listening.
[37:17]You can always email me at zibby at zibby Owens.com.