Emily Oster, CRIBSHEET: A DATA-DRIVEN GUIDE TO BETTER, MORE RELAXED PARENTING FROM BIRTH TO PRESCHOOL
[0:00]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens and you're listening to Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:22]Hi, I'm thrilled to be interviewing Emily Oster, PhD, who's a professor of economics
[0:26]at Brown University.
[0:27]She's the best-selling author of Expecting Better, why the conventional pregnancy wisdom
[0:32]is wrong and what you really need to know.
[0:34]In her latest book, which is Crib Sheep, a data-driven guide to better, more relaxed
[0:38]parenting from birth to preschool.
[0:40]Her work has been featured in The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Forbes,
[0:43]New York, and Esquire, among other publications.
[0:46]Emily received her BA and PhD from Harvard, so she's a total moron.
[0:50]She currently lives in Boston with her husband, also an economist, and there are two
[0:54]children.
[0:55]Thanks for coming on Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:57]Thank you for having me.
[0:58]It's such a thrill to be able to talk to you.
[1:00]I feel like you've become such a guru on all things parenting from such a thoughtful
[1:06]place, so I feel like I get my personal dose of expertise this morning, so thanks.
[1:13]So can you tell listeners what Crib Sheep is about?
[1:16]Yeah, so Crib Sheep is about parenting, and it's about using evidence to make parenting choices,
[1:22]so it's about breastfeeding and vaccinations and sleep training and co-sleeping and all
[1:26]the kind of big things that come up in the first few years of life, and also some of
[1:31]the smaller things that come up, and really about kind of looking at what does the evidence
[1:37]say about these choices, because I think there's a lot of noise that we get when we are
[1:43]thinking about these choices from people who want to give advice, and some of the advice
[1:47]is well-meaning, and some of the advice is bossy and mean, and some of it's somewhere
[1:51]in between that, and this book is really about saying what is the actual evidence say
[1:56]about those choices and how should you think about making the choice that works for you,
[2:00]since in a lot of these settings, it is not obvious from the data what is the right thing to do,
[2:05]that there aren't that many places where it's like you should definitely do this or
[2:08]should definitely not do this. There are a few, but not that many, and so much of the
[2:13]the work of the book is to really say, okay, here's the evidence, now how should you make this choice?
[2:17]So when I was talking to your mutual friend Anna, she had said, who's also an economist, she said,
[2:22]you know, I've reviewed all this literature, but it never occurred to me to write a book about it.
[2:26]So what made you not only review all the literature, I am assuming for your own kids,
[2:31]but then take it for the benefit of everybody else?
[2:35]Yeah, so I mean, this started when I wrote about pregnancy, so my first book is a sort of similar
[2:40]approach to pregnancy, and I think I had a reaction that it's funny, and I said that because a lot
[2:46]of economists have told me this and sort of people who do not just economists, but like
[2:50]Lady Academics have said, I did a lot of this research, but I never thought about writing it down,
[2:56]and I think that part of it is that I really like the process of sort of trying to write for a
[3:01]broader audience and thinking about the challenges that come with that kind of writing in a way
[3:06]that's sort of different than the challenges that come with academic writing, and so I think I was
[3:11]always more predisposed to that, but I think the other way to say it is just like, I like
[3:15]took this a little far. I was like, I should write a book about that, but then I like I did it,
[3:21]and so there there it is, and then the second book kind of came out of the first book.
[3:25]I love that there's a way you found to actually spin that as some sort of a negative
[3:29]that you took it too far. Do you know what I mean? Like you're like the super accomplished
[3:33]version with these great books, and you're like, oh, I just like, you know, I couldn't cut myself up.
[3:41]So how did you even end up becoming an economist? Let's start there. I know both your
[3:45]parents are economists. Yeah. So both of my parents are economists. So I knew that that was a job
[3:50]that one could have, but actually I wanted to be a scientist or doctor, which I think is not
[3:55]inconsistent with where I fed it up. But you know, in college I was like very into biology, and so
[4:02]my freshman year I got this job after a freshman year working in a fruit fly lab. So actually I had
[4:06]two jobs. I had one job was like sort of on the side, I was doing some economics research for
[4:11]somebody that like I had met through my parents. And then I was also working in this in this
[4:15]fruit fly lab. And I realized that like I hated working in the fruit fly lab. And then more than not
[4:19]liking it, I really do not have the temperament for like wet work in the lab. And that this was just
[4:25]like not something I turned out to be to be passionate about, but I really liked the economics
[4:29]stuff that I was doing. And so I sort of like veered into that. And then you know, I just I've
[4:35]always really liked doing research. And this was the sort of kind of research that I got drawn to.
[4:40]And then I became an economist. I feel like for your mom to be an economist, like I feel like
[4:45]there aren't that many economists. I mean, not that I know too much about this, but at that age like
[4:49]in that generation almost. So you know, no, no, no, really cool story. Yeah, I mean, I think she also,
[4:56]yes, my mom does have a cool story because she's not, you know, she did not grow up with parents
[5:01]who are who are professors. Her mom was a waitress and, you know, who didn't like finish high
[5:06]school and immigrated from Sweden. And then my mom, you know, went to college and at Hofstra,
[5:12]which is not an especially good college fine college, but it wasn't, you know, she didn't go to
[5:16]an Ivy League school. And then she just was trying to decide like should she get a PhD in economics
[5:19]or should she go to law school? And she like applied to like Harvard and Yale for those things.
[5:24]And the thing she got into was the Harvard economics department. And then she went there,
[5:28]but there were like two women, you know, and she just sort of, I don't know, I mean, it was a different
[5:33]it was a different time, although not as different as we might, as we might wish. So yeah,
[5:37]but she ended up being an economist, which is very nice.
[5:42]So I feel like you have this gift, obviously, for taking your economics sort of hat, if you will,
[5:48]and applying it to maybe things that weren't always so typical fodder for economists.
[5:53]Have you done this for other industries aside from parenting, not the parenting industry,
[5:58]but would you think about doing it any other? Like, do you apply this lens anywhere else?
[6:02]I think I apply this lens everywhere else. And so you know, I think like in the in the sort of
[6:08]scope of like decisions that I make about my life, and I think part of it is my husband is also
[6:12]an economist. And so it's a shared language. So when we're thinking about about choices,
[6:17]even before we had kids thinking about choices about what, you know, what should we do with our
[6:21]time or how should we shop for a house or what should we live? All of these things are sort of
[6:27]influenced by this, this approach that I think to us seems like, wait, that's just how you make
[6:32]decisions. But then when you explain that to other people, they're like, you guys are crazy.
[6:37]Give me a crazy relationship.
[6:40]You talked to, you showed an example of it in your book about ordering vegetarian meal kits,
[6:45]basically is where you ended up when you were debating how to cook. Can you just like take me through
[6:49]an example of how someone might approach a decision versus how you would approach a decision?
[6:54]Like, I don't know, take something normal. Like, I don't pick something like how you decide,
[6:59]you know, what to do on a Saturday morning with your kids or like, how do you make the normal
[7:03]decisions that you have to make 57 times a day?
[7:06]Yeah. So I think we probably are not quite that crazy about the sort of like normal,
[7:11]the normal like everyday decisions. But you know, when it comes to things like sort of what is
[7:17]the, it's more I think when it comes to decisions about like how should we spend money and like what
[7:21]is the, you know, like should we outsource this thing? So we make a lot of decisions about like
[7:26]should we do this or should somebody else, you know, should we like clean the house or
[7:30]should someone else clean the house? Should we like order meal kits or should we do this? And I
[7:33]think that that a lot of people sort of make that choice by kind of like what sort of like,
[7:39]what do I want? And you know, what can I afford? And I think we in some ways those are the
[7:45]central considerations for what we're doing, but the language is different that it's sort of like,
[7:49]okay, what's the opportunity cost of my of my time as opposed to what we can afford, which are
[7:55]effectively a similar question, but not exactly the same. And you know, similarly rather than saying,
[8:00]you know, what do I want? It's like, okay, like how much what would be my willingness to pay to have
[8:03]somebody else do this or how much money would I accept to clean somebody else's house, which is like a
[8:08]different way to frame that that question that I think is not the way everyone would do it.
[8:13]Interesting. I love how you used marginal utility to describe, you know, I think you just
[8:19]describe marginal utility in relation to how much time you can spend with your kids, right?
[8:24]Like where did I can't even find this question? But that after a while, like you spend an hour
[8:28]with your kids on the floor is the second hour that much more important, like I'm flashing back
[8:32]to my intra economic class with like the graphs going down, right? Yeah, the graph's going down
[8:36]exactly what your marginal utility is diminishing. It's diminishing. Yes. And I think that we,
[8:41]you know, we teach this in economic classes around apples, you know, we have this sort of like
[8:44]at the first apple, it's really great. But like after you've already had 15 apples, like the last
[8:49]apple doesn't taste that good, right? And I think that this is in a sort of application of that to
[8:55]to the idea of time that when you spend an hour, you know, that as you spend time with your kids,
[9:00]the marginal hours, like the next hour is, you know, for some of us, like not as good as the first
[9:06]hour. And when you think about the optimal time allocation, you have to compare sort of the
[9:11]marginal hours, not the average hours. And so this is something I spent a lot of time on in class,
[9:15]is the distinction between marginal and average that on average I could enjoy my kids much more than
[9:21]my job. But I could still prefer to spend more time at my job if the the marginal utility is declining
[9:27]more slowly. Interesting. People do not, that is not always like, that does not always go over well
[9:33]with everybody. But I think with any unique point of view, it can't go over well with everybody,
[9:39]right? I mean, I think some people are like, yes, that's what I think. Like, you know, I think
[9:44]for some people, that is like an insight. Like, yes, that's a good way to explain how I feel about this
[9:48]decision. And I think for for some other people, it's it's not, but I don't know. That's how I used to
[9:54]thinking about it. And that's sort of how you not rationalize as the wrong word. You don't need to
[9:58]rationalize it just if I were working. But I.
[10:00]feel like you said that in an article for working parents.
[10:03]If the margin utility is going down, then you might as well go do what you love.
[10:08]Yeah.
[10:09]Yeah.
[10:10]I think rationalize isn't the right.
[10:11]I think rationalize is not the right word because I think it implies that somehow like this
[10:14]choice is not like the right choice or not.
[10:17]I know.
[10:18]Or something.
[10:19]No, but I think that you're that you're right.
[10:21]It's sort of like a way to, it's a way to understand that this is the choice that works
[10:26]for you because I think that there is a sort of cognitive dissonance between the idea
[10:31]that like, you know, well, if I love my kids more than I love my job, then shouldn't
[10:36]I be spending all my time with them?
[10:38]And this is a way to think about, well, actually that fact does not imply that those two
[10:42]things are not implied by each other and that when you think about this choice, deciding
[10:48]to go to work is not the same as saying you do not love your love your kids.
[10:52]And I think that's that even for those of us who are very sure that we want to work and
[10:56]all this, there is that dissonance and helps to have thought about it.
[10:59]Now I am back to my interest, psychology class for cognitive dissonance.
[11:02]This is great.
[11:03]I'm going to get like a refresher.
[11:04]It's like, yeah, it's a refresher of under.
[11:06]I need you to like dabble in art history for a few minutes and then I'll be like covered.
[11:11]But cognitive dissonance, why don't you just explain that concept?
[11:14]I don't.
[11:15]I'm not a psychology professor, but what I, the way that I understand this is that, you
[11:19]know, when you have made a choice, you don't want to think things or do things that make
[11:25]that the wrong choice, because that causes you to feel like cognitively dissonant, like
[11:31]somehow that you have these sort of two different things in your, in your head.
[11:35]And I think this actually comes up all the time in some of these big parenting choices.
[11:40]So even in something like breastfeeding, you know, if you like breastfeeding is like a lot
[11:44]of work, if you want to like breastfeed your kid until they're a year old, like that's
[11:47]actually a fair amount of work.
[11:49]And I think that some of what happens when we think about like why are people so militant,
[11:54]why can people get so militant about this?
[11:56]Is it after you've done all that work?
[11:58]You kind of want it to be like it's really important, right?
[12:01]You want to feel like obviously this is the most important thing, otherwise why did I
[12:05]spend all that time like doing it?
[12:08]And I think that that can lead us to then be interested in telling other people, obviously
[12:13]this is so important.
[12:15]You should understand that because I spent all this time doing it and it can be hard
[12:18]then to say, yeah, I spent a bunch of time doing because like that was the choice that
[12:21]worked for me, but you know, maybe it's not the choice that works for everybody.
[12:24]Thank you for that.
[12:25]You don't have to teach anymore.
[12:28]What about just weighing, so you have all this data in your book and synthesize it in a
[12:33]really great way.
[12:34]What about just going with your preferences?
[12:36]Like do you think now that you've given everybody the data?
[12:39]Should people just like wing it or should people try to research it or both?
[12:43]Yeah.
[12:44]I mean, I think there's a piece of this where some people have said, well is this book
[12:47]just like do like go with your gut, you know, does this book just say like here's all
[12:50]the data, but like actually make whatever choice choice you want.
[12:53]I think there's a little bit of that feel sometimes because in many of these choices,
[12:58]the answer is like, yeah, there's many good choices and you kind of have to decide what
[13:01]works for you, which I think is a bit different actually than going with your with your
[13:04]gut.
[13:05]So I think that what I'm kind of advocating here is that that you take a structured approach
[13:11]to making the decision and the structured approach involves looking at the data and then
[13:15]combining that with some actual understanding of your preferences, not like what do I feel
[13:21]right this second?
[13:22]You know, but like what are the things that's going to kind of work for my family?
[13:26]Like you should talk about it with your spouse, you should have like a plan, you should
[13:29]think about how do we see the costs and benefits here, which is different from saying
[13:34]going with your gut, but it's also different from saying that everyone should do the
[13:37]same thing.
[13:38]So I think there's kind of a rule for preferences, which is different from just like
[13:42]knee-jerk, like whatever you're feeling in the moment kind of approach.
[13:46]So now that you've written all this stuff about parenting, do you put pressure on yourself
[13:50]when you're dealing with the routine parenting issues, like tantrums?
[13:53]I'm not sure how old your kids are now, but all these things that happen in daily life,
[13:57]like do you feel like wait a minute, like I should be able to control this.
[14:00]I researched this.
[14:01]I know this.
[14:02]Like is there some funny thing that happens to you and you're like exact position?
[14:06]I think the place that I really feel this is like sometimes when I'm in public and then
[14:12]like, of course, it's not like people know who I am.
[14:14]So this is all like sort of an internal, like an internal thing, but there was this time
[14:19]out that long ago we were in like the airport and my son was like licking a escalator and
[14:23]you know, the thing is like, you know, I was like, I'll stop it, you know, but I don't
[14:28]actually think that's that terrible.
[14:30]But you know, I was in this moment, like someone, like what if someone actually did like
[14:34]see that?
[14:35]And like this person thinks she's a parenting expert and her kid is like licking the escalator
[14:39]and he threw like what kind of person is that?
[14:42]I'm hoping he's not like 15 years old.
[14:44]No, he's full.
[14:45]He was three.
[14:46]Okay.
[14:47]That would be like a different issue.
[14:48]No, I agree.
[14:49]No, my kids are little.
[14:50]So I think there is sometimes this field that I am more cognizant that I might be about
[14:54]how people perceive my parenting choices and that my kids, sometimes that my kids
[14:58]school also because I don't like talk about the book at school, I don't like, you
[15:02]know, I don't I don't know how many people at the school know that I wrote this, wrote
[15:06]this book.
[15:07]But I think there always is this feel anytime you're interacting with the parents of your
[15:10]kids, friends that like, what is this person think about me?
[15:13]But I think particularly if you've been gone out and been like, oh, I wrote this book about
[15:17]like how to be a good parent, like the way the kid comes home and they're like, oh, you
[15:20]know, this person's kid like pulled my shirt.
[15:23]You wonder if the parents are like, oh, yeah, I think she's so great a parent as well.
[15:27]Oh, my kids start.
[15:30]I feel like they should do something like in preschool, especially like I see all these moms
[15:35]every day, right?
[15:36]For two seconds, right?
[15:37]Hey, however, but they should, they should like do some sort of two minute video on each
[15:42]parent because every, like look at what a cool job you have, like they might not even
[15:45]know.
[15:46]Like, I think there should be like a, let's get to know the other parents, watch it, watch
[15:50]a little video.
[15:52]And with my first kid, I got to know so my daughter, like I know she's been in the same
[15:56]school since she was three and now my sons are two, but like with, because she was our
[16:00]first, like we actually got to know a lot of the parents, so like a bunch of the parents
[16:03]in her class, I know, but somehow like I haven't invested in my son's class in the same
[16:07]way.
[16:08]So like I don't know anything about the parents, I feel a bit, like I feel a bit bad because
[16:12]as you say, I'm guessing many of them have very interesting jobs and would, you know, be
[16:17]interesting to talk to you, but I don't, I don't know.
[16:19]It's taken me most this year, like, well, I shouldn't even think, I have four kids
[16:23]and it took a while.
[16:24]It took a while for me to like gear up for my fourth kid's class, you know, like what
[16:31]are his future names, like who are the parents, but now finally, I mean, it's been two
[16:35]years in the same class.
[16:36]I'm like, now I know that, but it definitely took me, I was like, I do not have the
[16:40]bandwidth for another set of parents, like I don't know, but anyway, now they're great
[16:44]people and I'm so happy.
[16:45]I know them, but you know, I needed like the little video, I need like a little, anyway,
[16:49]whatever.
[16:50]It's like off-topping.
[16:52]So you wrote a piece in New York magazine recently where you wrote about the things parents
[16:57]actually need.
[16:58]So what don't parents really need?
[17:00]Like what do you think is totally, you know, superfluous?
[17:04]I think there are a lot of stuff that you buy in the first three weeks that you don't turn
[17:08]out to need.
[17:09]I recall like every time we had some issue with my daughter, we would just be like, oh, I'm
[17:13]gonna buy something to fix that, you know, it's like we had a lot of stuff.
[17:16]So like, I had a couple of thoughts on it, like so one is like bottle warmers, like
[17:21]you don't want to train them to drink it warm.
[17:23]You just want them to be able to drink it at room chat, but I made that mistake.
[17:27]Yeah.
[17:28]Rookie mistake.
[17:29]I did that.
[17:30]Get out of the fridge.
[17:31]It's fine.
[17:32]Tastes the same.
[17:33]It's okay.
[17:34]That was one thing that we had that was definitely not useful.
[17:37]The other thing was baby shoes.
[17:39]So we got all these like shoes for babies, like, but like my kids didn't walk until
[17:43]they were like 16 months old.
[17:45]And so we held these like, what are they doing with those shoes, you know, particularly
[17:50]because I didn't dress, I sort of just like dress my kids and like, like, onesies
[17:53]from Target.
[17:54]And so the, it wasn't, it wasn't even part of an outfit.
[17:57]It was just like, I had these like, functional shoes and like a belt, somebody gave me
[18:00]a belt once for my baby, like, there's any kind of belt.
[18:06]I mean, in the whole sort of like industrial complex of like, baby, sort of like fancy baby
[18:10]clothes, I think is, is something that some people really like, I could never like quite
[18:16]get into because they just like pooped on everything.
[18:19]I feel like there's so much pressure before you have kids, so like, get it all right
[18:22]and get everything you need.
[18:24]And in this day and age, it's like, you can get something in an hour delivered to your
[18:27]door.
[18:28]I mean, I'm here in New York at not everybody, but it's like, if I didn't have the aquaphore,
[18:32]I could get the aquaphore later.
[18:33]I felt like everything had to be ready and stuck.
[18:35]I have aquaphore.
[18:36]I have aquaphore like in every cabinet in my house.
[18:38]No, me too.
[18:39]Yeah.
[18:40]Because it's for everything.
[18:41]Yeah.
[18:42]A little too.
[18:43]Travel size.
[18:44]Like good for everything that is like the most useful product.
[18:49]I had like some like itchy, something in the back of my head the other day and my nanny
[18:53]was there and she's like, let me put a little aquaphore on that.
[18:55]And I was like, okay.
[18:57]Yeah, it works as a lip balp.
[18:59]Yeah, the one thing I was I was talking to one of one of my friends is is pregnant and
[19:03]she was like, okay, like, you know, is there anything I'm missing and I was like, look,
[19:07]you can order everything.
[19:08]The one thing is you need to have some formula in the house because like the moment,
[19:12]like there's going to be like a moment when you like, or there could be a moment when
[19:16]like the breastfeeding is not working and you're like, kid is really hungry and you want
[19:18]to like give them a little bit of formula and it's going to be three o'clock in the morning
[19:22]for sure.
[19:23]Like if you don't want your spouse to have to drive out, you've got to have like a little
[19:27]bit of that around like little bottles.
[19:29]That's true.
[19:30]Totally.
[19:31]So I just wrote this article on What's Up Moms where I pick Wordbooks for how to be
[19:34]a more relaxed parent.
[19:36]And I included your book at the end.
[19:37]I was like, I need this for pre-teens because my older kids are almost 12 and I was like,
[19:41]what do you think Emily else are like, so are you, are you getting to that?
[19:45]And then I spent like five minutes last night as I wrote questions to you thinking of like
[19:49]funny names for teen books and then I was like, I cannot send these to her.
[19:52]These are not funny and I'm really tired.
[19:54]Yeah, I think the problem with doing this sort of like next phase is.
[20:00]is that the data part of this becomes so much worse.
[20:03]I mean, I felt this even if you like in this book,
[20:06]as you sort of get into some of the questions people
[20:08]will have more about older kids,
[20:09]like can you teach my three year old to read and so on.
[20:11]Like our data is very poor.
[20:13]I don't matter, like what's the right kind of preschool?
[20:15]Is a Montessori school is right?
[20:16]Is a play based preschool right?
[20:17]Like the answer is like that depends on your kid.
[20:19]Like number one, we have almost no data.
[20:21]And it's not even that easy to imagine
[20:24]how we would run that kind of study
[20:26]because the kinds of kids who are gonna benefit
[20:28]from Montessori may be like different
[20:30]than the kind of kids who will benefit from something else.
[20:32]And so there's too much heterogeneity,
[20:35]like too many differences in the effects of those things
[20:37]on kids to really analyze them.
[20:39]So I think the data in that part is very poor.
[20:42]And then you're kind of left with just sort of structure.
[20:45]Like you, I mean, you could write a book that was like,
[20:47]how should you think about the kind of decisions
[20:48]that will come up with preteens
[20:50]or even with like older, you know, with six year olds?
[20:53]But I think that it's just a much more complicated space.
[20:58]I mean, I find parenting my eight year old
[21:01]to be really fun and much less,
[21:04]in some ways, much less exhausting,
[21:05]but also like a lot more complicated
[21:07]than the little ones.
[21:09]We till 11.
[21:10]Yeah, no, no, and I'm sure parents are there
[21:14]who have like, you know, college.
[21:15]I mean, they're like, yeah, you think it's harder to 11.
[21:17]We till 14, you know?
[21:19]No, yeah, I have a story at the end of the book
[21:20]about like these sort of older colleagues
[21:23]where like when we went, we had dinner at their house
[21:25]and our kids were like one and four
[21:27]and their kids were like 15 and 19 or something.
[21:29]And I was like, you know, boy, like when our kids
[21:31]are older, like we're gonna run,
[21:33]they were like, yeah, we thought that.
[21:34]Yeah.
[21:35]But like actually when our kids were both in high school,
[21:37]like we spent every night, like we spent three hours
[21:40]talking about like, you know, how to like make them happy.
[21:43]I had an author come in the other day
[21:45]who was a little older than me.
[21:46]And I was like, I'm so sorry.
[21:47]I haven't slept on I like my two kids,
[21:49]both my kids woke me up.
[21:50]It was one of those nights that dog is barking,
[21:52]whatever. And she's like, me too,
[21:53]because my two older kids had friends over
[21:55]until two in the morning and the music was blasting.
[21:57]And I was like, oh my God, it's never going to end.
[21:59]It's never going to end.
[22:01]I'm doomed.
[22:02]I learned nothing.
[22:03]Anyway, so do you think you're gonna write another book?
[22:06]I don't know.
[22:07]I think if I wrote another one,
[22:08]it would probably not be about this.
[22:10]It would maybe it would be about diets.
[22:12]This is more like what I'm working on is sort of,
[22:14]and I think a lot of these same issues come up
[22:16]in the same kind of data, like limits to the data
[22:19]and how do you think about biases come up a lot?
[22:22]And that is actually much closer to my academic work.
[22:25]So, but I don't know.
[22:26]I'm not sure, like, I took a long time
[22:29]to decide to write the second one,
[22:30]because I wanted to be sure that I knew what I was gonna say,
[22:34]and I don't know what I'm gonna say another one.
[22:37]So, we'll have to say no friends.
[22:38]It's noon, wait like seven years.
[22:39]Okay, I'll wait seven years.
[22:41]My kids will be like, you know, out of my house,
[22:43]but no, I'm kidding.
[22:44]Do you have any advice?
[22:45]Do you aspiring authors?
[22:46]No, so the advice I give a lot,
[22:49]a lot of academics ask me about writing books.
[22:52]You know, regular people who run my books don't ask me,
[22:54]but academics ask me, and I think the main thing I tell them
[22:57]is like, if you're gonna write a nonfiction book,
[22:59]you need to like know what all that is best
[23:01]and know what all the chapters are first.
[23:02]I think a lot of people start with sort of like,
[23:04]I have one really good point that I think other people
[23:07]should know about.
[23:08]And like, that's a great reason to write an article,
[23:10]but I think where the writing of books
[23:12]becomes onerous and unpleasant
[23:15]is when you have to write all the chapters.
[23:17]I see you kinda wanna make sure
[23:18]that you are planning to write all the chapters
[23:20]before you commit to writing any of them.
[23:22]Excellent.
[23:23]I know you're not gonna write a book about teens,
[23:24]but now I feel like I'm gonna email you
[23:26]when I have to make major life decisions
[23:27]and see like, okay, what's the data on this?
[23:30]And I do like, I don't know.
[23:31]And I'll be like, whatever.
[23:32]I was like, well, I'm not gonna listen to you anyway,
[23:33]I'm just gonna do my own thing.
[23:35]Exactly, that's the whole thing.
[23:36]Yeah.
[23:37]Well, thanks so much for coming on mom's.
[23:39]Don't have time to read books.
[23:40]Thank you for having me.
[23:41]Okay, take care.
[23:42]Bye, I am late.
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