Julie Satow, THE PLAZA
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[0:58]I'm excited to be interviewing Julie Sato today, who's the author of The Plaza, The Secret
[1:03]Life of America's Most Famous Hotel.
[1:06]Julie is an award-winning journalist, who has covered real estate in New York for over a decade.
[1:10]She's a regular contributor to The New York Times, and her work has appeared on NPR,
[1:14]HuffPost Modern Loss, Cappella, and The New York Post, among others.
[1:18]A native New Yorker, she currently lives in New York City, with her husband and two children.
[1:22]Hi, Julie.
[1:23]Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:25]Thanks so much for having me.
[1:26]It's an honor.
[1:27]Oh.
[1:28]After you're on the today show yesterday, this will probably be a piece of cake.
[1:32]Well, that was taped so it's not airing for a little while, so it was a little, the pressure
[1:36]was off slightly.
[1:37]Okay.
[1:38]This is off the tape.
[1:39]Yes, right.
[1:40]Exactly.
[1:41]The bushes and I, you know, we same thing, you know, so congratulations on The Plaza.
[1:46]Thank you so much.
[1:47]Thank you so much.
[1:48]So can you please tell listeners what The Plaza is about and what inspired you to write
[1:52]it?
[1:53]Yes.
[1:54]The Plaza is a biography of the hotel, but it's also a social history of New York.
[1:59]So I use it as a lens to tell a social history from 1907 through today of what was happening
[2:05]in New York and the country and through the stories of The Plaza.
[2:10]Why was I inspired to write it?
[2:12]I've covered real estate for a long time in New York and I grew up here.
[2:16]So The Plaza was always like, you know, presents, right.
[2:20]Like you go to Central Park after school, sometimes in the afternoons and was always there.
[2:25]And my grandmother used to stay there.
[2:26]I also was married there to Maro Thursday, will be my 10 year anniversary.
[2:31]It's coming full circle.
[2:34]So yeah, and the beside the personal stuff, I felt like what's really cool about The Plaza
[2:40]is that really it's like a mirror, everything that's happening in New York and everything
[2:45]that's happened around the country happens at The Plaza.
[2:48]So whether it's union, tensions, business trends, even today, you know, condominiums and
[2:55]foreign investors, just no matter what the trend is, it seems that The Plaza reflects
[2:59]that.
[3:00]So it was a really rich topic.
[3:03]To me when I read it, it's like The Plaza was just the set, but the story was something
[3:09]else.
[3:10]Oh, yeah, that's true.
[3:11]It seemed to me like it wasn't the history of The Plaza itself as, I mean, it was.
[3:15]Yeah.
[3:16]But it was also just this amazing story of culture and life and all the characters.
[3:21]Yeah.
[3:22]That was like the backdrop.
[3:23]Yeah.
[3:24]That was like an excuse.
[3:25]Yeah, it's like a play where that would be the set of the play.
[3:29]And then yeah, anyway, that will know that was totally like, you know, I kind of just went
[3:35]where I was interested.
[3:36]So I found all these amazing stories that I had never heard of before, even though I thought
[3:42]I knew The Plaza.
[3:43]I feel like a lot of people think they know The Plaza, you know, they know Eloise,
[3:47]they know whatever, but I discovered all these stories.
[3:50]And so it was like a great excuse just to tell a bunch of stories that I felt like.
[3:54]No, and you're such a good storyteller.
[3:56]I mean, literally from the minute it opens up, you're in it, right?
[3:59]Oh, that's awesome.
[4:00]The Vanderbilt getting out of his car, right?
[4:02]You see a Vanderbilt getting out of his car and walking in and the girl on the count.
[4:07]I mean, the whole thing, it's so visual, the whole way.
[4:09]Oh, that's awesome.
[4:10]That was awesome.
[4:11]You start the book with this great introduction, which you wrote in the first person, which
[4:14]was great, because not, oh, they don't, you know, that was a nice, it was really nice introduction
[4:18]because I felt like it was you telling the story, and maybe because I met you about it.
[4:22]So in the introduction, you said the intention of the book was in part to memorialize the
[4:26]111 year history of The Plaza, but also that The Plaza was like the giving treat, like
[4:31]Shell Silverstein's giving treat, and that everybody was taking a piece.
[4:34]Can you explain what you meant by that?
[4:35]Yeah.
[4:36]I mean, it's had like multiple owners since the beginning, and it really, because it's
[4:41]such like an icon, people who are attracted, who want to own it, they want a trophy property.
[4:48]So it really is about a lot of times for the owners, it's about vanity, it's about branding.
[4:54]So they sort of use The Plaza for their own self-aggrandizement.
[4:58]So I felt like, you know, obviously owners have loved the hotel and cared for it, but
[5:04]a lot of times they've sort of used it for their own, their own ends.
[5:08]So for instance, Harry Black was the first owner, and he actually, he's this interesting
[5:13]character in and of himself.
[5:14]He like also did the flat iron building and all this stuff.
[5:17]But he, you know, for him, The Plaza, he lived in the Penthouse, and it really was his
[5:22]calling card and part of his identity.
[5:25]And you may know, right, you read the box, you know, he liked trying to commit suicide
[5:30]in the bathtub of a hotel after he lost a lot of money during the 1929 crash.
[5:34]And there was just a lot of Conrad Hilton used the hotel as sort of his entree into New
[5:40]York and trying to become this big player before that Conrad Hilton was considered this
[5:45]Westerner, the sort of this uncouth Texan.
[5:48]He comes to New York and he, you know, buys The Plaza and all of a sudden, everyone takes
[5:52]him seriously.
[5:53]Obviously, Donald Trump owned it.
[5:55]You know, he bought it at the height of sort of the go-go 80s at the height of his, you
[6:01]know, fame as a real estate developer.
[6:03]And, you know, so I feel like it was often sort of used, you know, more recently, the last
[6:08]owner was this guy, Subrata Roy, from India.
[6:11]And I guess he's the sort of most extreme example where he bought the hotel.
[6:16]And then obviously he got into some legal issues at home in India.
[6:21]And he really did siphon off any money that the hotel was making for his own legal and
[6:27]criminal issues back in India.
[6:29]So I feel like you had some line where it was like, who knew walking by that like the
[6:33]owner is actually like in some random prison.
[6:35]Yes.
[6:36]Like he just didn't know.
[6:37]Right.
[6:38]People don't know that.
[6:39]And I think people would go into the hotel and be like, wow, it doesn't have that same
[6:42]feeling that it used to have.
[6:44]So I felt like with the giving tree, you know, it's like this, this boy loves this tree,
[6:48]but he just keeps taking from it, you know, until there's really nothing left and the
[6:52]tree keeps giving of itself.
[6:53]So I felt kind of like the Plaza had done the same thing, you know, it sort of gave every
[6:58]piece of itself over to these owners.
[7:00]Because it's a small port, such as one little place.
[7:04]So it's kind of sad.
[7:07]You also wrote this book, I'm going to quote this book is a history of the 1% of celebrity
[7:12]a pop culture and gossip.
[7:13]It also examines how the Plaza is ground zero for the increasing globalization of money
[7:18]and the slow decoupling of pedigree from wealth.
[7:21]So it's like from Alfred Quinn Vanderbilt to Kim Kardashian, right?
[7:24]It's like the ultimate.
[7:25]So it talked to me a little more about the shift how in the beginning you paint a portrait
[7:30]of the Plaza being like the ultimate place for high society and how people would actually
[7:34]move in there for all the amenities and how now, of course, it's, I mean, now people
[7:38]are back to moving in.
[7:41]But it is true.
[7:42]I think that it's sort of the story of money, the story of wealth.
[7:45]And I think in some ways wealth has changed, you know, it was Alfred Quinn Vanderbilt was
[7:50]the first guest.
[7:51]He was one of the country's wealthiest men.
[7:54]You know, there were more than 1600 chandeliers at the Plaza and two men whose only
[8:00]job was just to dust the chandeliers.
[8:02]I mean, the opulence was just amazing, right?
[8:05]And now wealth is much more about investment.
[8:09]It might be a foreign investment.
[8:11]You know, the Plaza is largely condominiums.
[8:14]A lot of the really glamorous rooms where all the stars used to stay facing Central Park
[8:19]are now, you know, multi-million dollar apartments owned by absentee owners, many of
[8:24]whom don't even stay there or have never even been there and really use it as an investment.
[8:29]And I think that's sort of what's happened with wealth.
[8:31]It's become much more of a commodity less of a lifestyle.
[8:36]So the Plaza reflects that.
[8:37]You have that sad line where like all the corridors are dark because everybody owns them
[8:42]like never goes to those real or sad, just like this almost abandoned wonder landers.
[8:47]I know.
[8:48]It's been an issue.
[8:49]It's happening across New York.
[8:51]You know, I think actually you had mentioned in one of your emails like how, you know,
[8:56]today people are moving back into hotel.
[8:59]So in the beginning, people did live in the Plaza like I was like, oh, wait, sorry,
[9:03]am I dead?
[9:04]No, no.
[9:05]I'm asking now.
[9:06]Okay.
[9:07]No, I had said that I didn't realize that hotel, even the words hotel and apartment at the beginning
[9:10]were synonymous because now obviously they're not.
[9:14]And I was wondering, is it the same, do you think it was the same then getting all
[9:17]those extra perks as families who want to move into apartment buildings in the city that
[9:21]have play rooms in a concierge who does dry cleaning or do you think this is the modern
[9:25]day kind of clubby like 15 central park west type of building or is it like a Hudson yards
[9:31]where they have the new, you know, you know, it's so funny when I read that email because
[9:35]I was like, I'm writing that story for the New York Times right now, no about how people
[9:41]used to live in hotels and how it's sort of they're coming back to that idea now today.
[9:46]It used to be that hotels and departments, as you said, were sort of synonymous and a lot
[9:51]of 90% of the people who checked into the plaza in 1907 live there full time.
[9:56]It was their home and how today a lot of condominiums.
[10:00]have become a lot like hotels with all of these amenities.
[10:03]You know, you have private lounges and restaurants
[10:06]that cater to the residents.
[10:08]And you know, 432 Park is essentially in many ways
[10:12]has a lot of the amenities of a hotel.
[10:15]So I do think there's, we're like returning to that.
[10:18]The plaza now, I think is, you know,
[10:21]it is like the Time Warner Center or 432 Park
[10:24]or any of these new towers we're seeing, rising, you know,
[10:28]where it offers, you know, a lot of the benefits
[10:31]of a hotel, but there's still apartments.
[10:34]But there's something about the plaza now
[10:36]which has a feel to me like,
[10:39]almost like New Orleans or something,
[10:40]or like, oh, it's just that used to be,
[10:44]you know, you can feel the history.
[10:45]Yeah. And yet it's like, not run down as wrong
[10:49]where there's still so much charm in New Orleans
[10:51]and everything.
[10:51]But the, you know, it's a little like,
[10:53]yeah, like, you know, rough around the edges now at the plaza.
[10:56]I mean, for instance, I had like,
[10:59]I was doing an interview with one of the waiters
[11:01]who's worked at the Palm Court for like,
[11:04]he used to be at the Oyster Bar.
[11:05]He's worked there forever.
[11:06]He's been there for like 40 or 50 years.
[11:08]That's Guy Luigi.
[11:09]And he was like, look around at the dishes.
[11:12]And you'll see that they don't match
[11:14]because every time someone breaks a dish,
[11:17]we just like replace it.
[11:18]We don't have matching dishes.
[11:20]So a lot of the tea service are not even matching anymore.
[11:24]And that was really,
[11:25]and that was really the case.
[11:26]As I said, like that when the owner was this Indian guy,
[11:29]Subrata Roy, he was really siphoning all the money
[11:32]away from the hotel to help himself.
[11:34]And there was just really no money going back into the hotel
[11:37]last year in June.
[11:38]So exactly a year ago, the Kateri government bought the hotel.
[11:42]And they obviously have a lot of wealth.
[11:44]So I tried to end it on a more positive note saying,
[11:47]I hope these new owners are going to actually give it that love
[11:51]and attention that it needs because it is a very expensive
[11:54]endeavor to upkeep it.
[11:55]You know, it's a historic building.
[11:58]I think also like because the residences are cut off
[12:01]from the, it's its own entry way.
[12:04]You're not allowed to go in there.
[12:05]It's sort of very divided.
[12:08]I think it's created this awkward feeling too.
[12:12]I mean, I can't even imagine the expenses related to this.
[12:15]You know, there were 1,500 in help in the beginning.
[12:17]Yes.
[12:18]That's, I mean, I don't know how many people work there now,
[12:20]but not that many.
[12:23]That means that yes, back in the day.
[12:25]Yeah. I mean, it made sense back in the day
[12:28]to have these huge grand hotels.
[12:29]But if you look around in New York,
[12:31]they really don't have that now.
[12:33]A lot of the hotels are more boutique,
[12:35]even the Waldorf Astoria,
[12:37]which is not the historic Waldorf Astoria,
[12:39]but you know, it's now being made into condominiums too.
[12:42]It's just so expensive here in New York.
[12:44]I still find it confusing why like in London,
[12:47]you have these grand hotels that are so beautiful,
[12:50]like the door chaster or something.
[12:51]They seem to make it work there, but here it's,
[12:54]I think, gone away.
[12:56]I used to know, I mean, I know analytically that rent
[12:59]in everything is high commercial real estate and everything,
[13:01]but I have to say I just recently started investigating
[13:04]because I'm thinking about opening a little book store
[13:05]in the city, which I'm really excited about.
[13:08]But I started looking at rents and I was like,
[13:10]oh my gosh, like, first of all, it's like double on Madison.
[13:14]I mean, I know this from like looking at, you know,
[13:16]but you don't realize residential real estate,
[13:18]but just how on earth can I sell enough
[13:21]to justify that rent?
[13:22]Like I'd have to think of something.
[13:23]Anyway, so when I think about something
[13:25]that's distributed to the plazas,
[13:27]it must be astronomical.
[13:29]Yes, it doesn't really make sense,
[13:31]but there's nothing that can be done
[13:32]because it's a landmark building
[13:34]so they could not tear it down in like the 1960s
[13:37]they made at landmark.
[13:37]So basically it protected the building thank goodness
[13:41]and it saved the plaza, but like Hilton, for instance,
[13:44]actually in the 1960s before it was landmark,
[13:48]trying to convince the owners at the time
[13:50]that they should tear down and build an office building
[13:53]like what happened to the G.F.
[13:54]That would be so sad.
[13:55]Yeah, I'm really glad to see that too.
[13:56]I know exactly, but yeah, the real estate is, you know,
[14:00]it's hard to do that dance.
[14:02]Yes, I feel like this should be a Downton Abbey
[14:07]limited series.
[14:08]Have you talked to, are you making this into a movie
[14:10]or something?
[14:11]I please tell my agent that.
[14:13]Okay, I would do have it.
[14:15]I can see the whole thing in my head.
[14:19]Well, I do have a film agent.
[14:21]He's like shopping and shopping
[14:22]and around for scripted series.
[14:23]But so far, nothing.
[14:25]I'm hoping that me would come out.
[14:27]I know, that's true.
[14:27]So maybe when it comes out,
[14:28]I do know that there's another book that just,
[14:31]that's out about the Chateau Marmont in LA.
[14:33]That's right.
[14:34]And that's being made into an HBO series.
[14:36]So maybe I lost my chance.
[14:38]I don't know.
[14:39]But I feel that we need a new work version.
[14:41]That is totally different.
[14:43]It's more about like,
[14:44]no, this is more like old glamour, old glamour.
[14:48]Right, I agree.
[14:49]I wrote it very like upstairs downstairs.
[14:52]Yes.
[14:53]You know, I tried to do the wealthy guests,
[14:55]but also the people who work there.
[14:56]Did you think about doing it as,
[14:59]let me just read you the book for you.
[15:00]I'm just wondering if you thought about doing it
[15:03]as historical fiction and having all of this
[15:05]is the backdrop but having some like story of some.
[15:07]I mean, I think it would be amazing.
[15:09]I have the worst imagination.
[15:12]I am like, I'm a journalist.
[15:14]And I feel like that would have been fantastic.
[15:17]And if a screenwriter out there
[15:19]would like to buy the rights and do that,
[15:21]I'm fully into it.
[15:23]I feel like there was a lot of germs
[15:25]like that could be expanded out into great fiction.
[15:30]So I mean, in your Goodreads description,
[15:33]you mentioned that doing the research
[15:35]at the New York Public Library
[15:36]was one of your favorite parts of this project.
[15:38]And then you said elsewhere
[15:39]that you had read over a million articles.
[15:41]Okay.
[15:41]And see. Yeah, that is insane.
[15:43]So when I like, I was like,
[15:44]I'm like, she must have started this for you.
[15:46]Right, exactly.
[15:47]So I actually was like,
[15:49]when I was fact checking the book,
[15:51]I was like, maybe I shouldn't say,
[15:53]I changed that to tens of thousands.
[15:55]Which is like, I didn't know.
[15:57]Yeah, I only had the old piece of the galley, exactly.
[16:00]Because I tried to count.
[16:03]So the research was one of my friends.
[16:05]One, three, that was basically me.
[16:10]It was really, yeah.
[16:11]So the research for me was so amazing.
[16:14]First of all, I was in the Alon room at the library.
[16:16]And it was so cool because it's named for this guy,
[16:20]whose first name is escaping me right now.
[16:23]But he wrote these amazing histories of the 1920s
[16:26]and 1930s.
[16:26]And I used his research in the book.
[16:28]So it was like very cool.
[16:30]And yeah, the library was amazing being there.
[16:33]And what was so cool is that they have digitized
[16:36]all newspapers.
[16:37]Now so many newspapers are digitized.
[16:39]So it's like revolutionary.
[16:41]I feel like for a researcher,
[16:42]because you don't have to use microfiche.
[16:44]So I didn't need to know the date of a newspaper
[16:47]I was looking for.
[16:48]I could just use keywords.
[16:49]And yeah, tens of thousands of articles
[16:52]came up with Plaza Hotel and New York.
[16:55]And I basically combed through all of them
[16:58]from 1890 through 2017, 2018.
[17:01]It was amazing.
[17:02]And yeah, it was intense.
[17:04]But I discovered all these stories.
[17:06]So it was like super cool.
[17:07]That's awesome.
[17:08]I love hearing stories that people actually
[17:10]are using libraries.
[17:11]Oh my god, it was amazing.
[17:11]And the librarians also, because they were just so awesome.
[17:15]Like I met with this librarian, John, who I think in my book,
[17:19]he was a financial.
[17:20]He knows about all the finances.
[17:22]So he helped me find all the old annual reports
[17:26]for the original company that built the Plaza.
[17:29]And I was able to, my original version of the book
[17:32]was much more business heavy.
[17:34]I pulled that back somewhat.
[17:36]But it was so cool.
[17:37]Like just figuring all of that out
[17:38]and reading the old documents, it was amazing.
[17:41]I'm on the library council at the New York Book Library.
[17:44]If you ever want to get involved.
[17:45]Oh, really?
[17:46]For sure.
[17:47]I'm going to bring it to the next.
[17:48]I told my publicist, I was like,
[17:50]I want to be in that the summer reeds thing.
[17:52]Yeah, I don't think I'm in that way.
[17:54]I tried.
[17:55]That I have nothing to do with it.
[17:57]But I'm working on my own summer reeds.
[17:59]Oh, really?
[17:59]That's cool.
[18:00]Well, it's not that it's the same as the millions
[18:03]of New York Public Library below.
[18:05]Do you have any things that stand out of the side
[18:09]from your wedding, maybe, of things that happen to you
[18:11]in the Plaza that tie you to it emotionally?
[18:13]You said, dear, tease with your grandma.
[18:16]Yeah, I mean, obviously, my wedding is probably,
[18:19]you know what I wish I kept a diary?
[18:21]Because I would have loved to have remembered
[18:22]like why pick the Plaza, you know,
[18:25]like of all the places in New York,
[18:26]what that was about, my thought process at the time.
[18:29]But I think I just always felt like, you know,
[18:32]it's an icon like the Brooklyn Bridge
[18:35]or the Empire State building, I feel like.
[18:37]And for a long time, it was kind of the living room
[18:42]of New Yorkers.
[18:42]I feel like a lot of people,
[18:44]when, you know, you'd be shopping in Midtown
[18:46]and you needed a restroom.
[18:48]It had the most beautiful restroom and you could go in
[18:50]or you could just sit in the lobby
[18:53]and listen to music in the Palm Court
[18:55]and just kind of hang out for a little while, you know?
[18:57]It was this beautiful resting space.
[18:59]And I feel like that has not necessarily
[19:02]the case so much now, but so it just was always,
[19:04]it felt very, I felt very at home there,
[19:07]even though it wasn't my home, you know?
[19:10]So my favorite experience with Plaza,
[19:12]I might have told you this when we had tea there, whatever.
[19:14]So I used to write letters to authors.
[19:17]I sound so creepy, but I was like,
[19:18]I know, I'm serious, I love books
[19:20]and I've always been really interested.
[19:21]So cool.
[19:22]So when I was a little girl, I would like write letters,
[19:24]I would like look up the publisher in the back
[19:25]and my mom would help me find the address.
[19:27]And I would send, I would like hand write
[19:28]in my script letters to authors.
[19:30]And there was one author named Zibi O'Neill.
[19:32]So my name is Zibi and I hadn't really heard
[19:35]of any other Zibi's.
[19:36]So I wrote her a letter.
[19:37]Your real name was Elizabeth.
[19:39]Okay, got it.
[19:40]So I hand wrote her a letter
[19:41]and I sent it to her publisher
[19:42]and like it got to her in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
[19:45]And she wrote me back and we had this pen-pal relationship
[19:48]for like two years.
[19:49]And then finally she came to New York
[19:51]and she picked me up in my apartment
[19:52]and took me to tea at the Plaza.
[19:53]Oh, no, yes, it was so sweet.
[19:56]It was so sweet.
[19:57]I wore this like shoulder padded matte.
[20:00]saying like the louse and skirt.
[20:01]I can see it in my own so awful.
[20:04]Oh my God.
[20:05]But I thought I was with like the biggest rock star of all time,
[20:07]like to meet an author.
[20:09]Wow.
[20:10]Oh my gosh.
[20:10]That is the cutest story ever.
[20:13]Wait, did she know what you're doing now?
[20:15]Like, have you kept eating time?
[20:16]I actually tried to find her recently on Instagram
[20:19]and Facebook and I couldn't find her.
[20:21]And I'm, I, anyway, I'm gonna keep digging.
[20:24]Wow, that I have to reconnect.
[20:25]Oh my gosh, this is like, oh my gosh, so many years ago.
[20:29]That's a door wall, 30, anyway.
[20:31]So can we switch to this, okay, so your modern loss article?
[20:35]I know, I have to say, first of all, I don't have to talk.
[20:37]No, no, I had coffee the other day with Rebecca.
[20:40]Oh, I was like, I know, so we were, I was like,
[20:43]I'm going on, so you were talking about that.
[20:44]So modern loss, the founder and editor
[20:47]of the website Modern Loss Rebecca Sofer
[20:49]was on, I'm starting to have time to read books.
[20:50]Yes.
[20:51]And for her book, Modern Loss Candid Conversations and Grief.
[20:53]And so that's what we're talking about.
[20:55]She has this website where people can,
[20:57]it's like the huff post of grief.
[20:58]Yes, that's a good way to describe it.
[21:00]Yeah.
[21:01]Thank you.
[21:01]You just keep your room on us right now.
[21:04]So you wrote this, really, I was so,
[21:07]I just, I hadn't heard this about you
[21:08]and I didn't realize your brother had died.
[21:11]And I didn't realize he had died from suicide at age 20.
[21:13]And I just, the article you wrote was on my,
[21:16]it was like shocking and moving and beautiful.
[21:20]I think you should read it twice last night.
[21:23]No, really, I under the house, it was, it was so good.
[21:27]Oh, thank you.
[21:28]Anyway, that was the one that was on Modern Loss.
[21:29]Yeah.
[21:30]So you tell about your family to sort of get over
[21:34]the grief buying a house way up north
[21:37]and basically shoving all of his belongings
[21:39]in the basement, including a car
[21:41]that they continued to pay car insurance on
[21:43]just to sort of like still there.
[21:45]Oh my gosh, out of sight, out of mind type of thing.
[21:48]And you had this quote and you said
[21:50]from the beginning, during those terrible months,
[21:52]my parents stuck to my surviving brother
[21:54]and me, like an octopus sectioning,
[21:56]it's tentacles to a rock and a strong current.
[21:59]If they let go, they thought they would float away.
[22:02]Oh, yeah.
[22:04]And then you wrote another one called from a distance,
[22:06]which tackled sort of the same subject.
[22:09]So talk to me about your decision
[22:11]to write openly about this.
[22:13]Why in this piece?
[22:14]Why now?
[22:15]Yeah.
[22:16]It is a weird thing because as a journalist,
[22:18]you're very like third person.
[22:20]So it was scary.
[22:22]I wasn't sure how my family would take it.
[22:24]They've been very supportive.
[22:26]I thought it was very cathartic, you know.
[22:28]I have known Gabby, who's the other founder
[22:31]of modern loss for a long time.
[22:33]We worked together years ago.
[22:35]And she lost her father and sent mother.
[22:38]And I knew her not long after my brother
[22:42]had committed suicide.
[22:43]So we really bounded on that.
[22:45]So when she started modern loss with Rebecca,
[22:48]I was always sort of involved
[22:50]in like a contributing editor and stuff for a little while.
[22:53]And so I felt like I wanted to contribute to them
[22:58]and contribute to their amazing project.
[23:00]So I sort of did this thing.
[23:03]That was a little out of character for me.
[23:05]Yeah, I feel like the one thing I have is my writing.
[23:07]So it's hard when you lose someone to keep the memory alive
[23:13]and also to do that person justice.
[23:16]Jed was so young that he didn't really like
[23:19]get a chance to make a huge mark.
[23:22]And you know, in the greater world,
[23:24]he did amongst us with its friends and family.
[23:27]But I felt like maybe it's a way to kind of,
[23:31]you know, keep that memory out there in a wider way.
[23:35]My parents maybe you know, have a foundation
[23:38]that they started, which so that was sort of their thing.
[23:41]You know, I wasn't really necessarily very involved
[23:44]in the beginning.
[23:44]Kind of painful, but now I am more involved.
[23:47]But so this was more my thing, I guess.
[23:50]Have you used writing to help you through that before?
[23:53]Just privately?
[23:54]Yes, privately, yes.
[23:56]I, for many years, I kept a diary and I remember,
[24:00]I mean, I was in so much shock after he died.
[24:03]It's just, it was so he was not diagnosed with any mental illness.
[24:07]It was a long time ago, it was in the late 90s.
[24:11]So it was a wave of four mental health.
[24:13]It sort of reached the, you know,
[24:16]it wasn't as acknowledged or known about at the time.
[24:19]And so he was never really diagnosed with anything.
[24:21]He was always just sort of a little wild and crazy
[24:24]and funny and very charismatic and emotional.
[24:28]But it wasn't, you know, we had no concept
[24:30]that young people can have depression
[24:32]and it can look very different from what, you know,
[24:35]as someone just wanting to sleep all the time.
[24:37]And, you know, we just weren't, we weren't really educated.
[24:40]So it was such a shock that I like had a really hard time
[24:43]processing it for maybe the first few years.
[24:45]And so writing, yeah, writing just for myself
[24:48]was a way to kind of get those thoughts out.
[24:51]Oh my God.
[24:52]It was weird.
[24:54]I know it's sad.
[24:55]I'm so sorry.
[24:56]Yeah.
[24:57]Do you feel like it changed the trajectory of your life?
[25:01]Like do you feel like it's a moment, like you put a pin in
[25:03]and it goes a different way?
[25:04]Absolutely.
[25:05]Absolutely.
[25:07]I mean, in a weird way, I'm, this is the wrong word.
[25:10]I'm not, I'm not grateful for it.
[25:12]But I feel like I live a much better life now because of it.
[25:16]You know, because I'm just so much more conscious
[25:19]of what life is about.
[25:21]And I feel like at first I was, I was not, you know,
[25:25]I was a little crazy.
[25:26]I didn't really know how to process what it occurred.
[25:29]But as I sort of got through the grief process,
[25:32]I feel like I've made very conscious decisions
[25:34]about my life and what I do.
[25:37]And that's a direct result of going through this,
[25:39]like in scene loss and knowing how precious life is.
[25:43]It sounds so, so cliche.
[25:45]I didn't know, but I don't think that that's not at all.
[25:48]Yeah. And I feel like I'm a much better parent and wife.
[25:51]And just I feel like even the book, you know, none of that
[25:54]would have been possible without sort of the intention.
[25:58]I feel like I live my life with now that before I didn't.
[26:02]So I have like more appreciation for things, you know?
[26:06]I think that until you've gone through the last,
[26:08]it's hard to, like, you can know something intellectually
[26:10]and not live by it because you don't.
[26:12]But once you're world has been shook up like that,
[26:15]it's hard to go back.
[26:16]That's so true.
[26:17]I agree, which also sounds cliche, but it's true.
[26:22]I mean, and so the Jed Foundation, now you're involved with that.
[26:25]Yes, I'm on the board now.
[26:27]It really is an amazing organization that I can,
[26:30]so it's named for my brother.
[26:32]And it basically, it helps educate high schools,
[26:36]colleges, and we're even working now with younger kids
[26:40]because the diagnoses are happening so much younger now,
[26:44]helping them deal with how to help kids, basically.
[26:47]So there's a program that works with the colleges
[26:51]on instituting certain best practices to make sure
[26:54]that they're really helping all the students get through
[26:59]what can be a very stressful process college.
[27:01]And now we're starting the same program for high school.
[27:05]And we have a pilot program in New York
[27:07]with a few schools we're working with now.
[27:09]And then they're also doing something
[27:11]with a public school system in the city fifth through eighth grade.
[27:14]So I really do think it's saving lives and helping.
[27:18]And I think also, Jed Foundation was really,
[27:20]I mean, when we started, like I said,
[27:23]nobody really knew about kids and bipolar or depression
[27:28]or what it is.
[27:28]And I think we've really like raised so much awareness.
[27:31]So I'm proud of it, you know?
[27:33]I'm on the board of the Child Mind Institute.
[27:35]Yes, yes.
[27:36]I feel like we should do something together.
[27:37]I know.
[27:37]We should have like a,
[27:38]I know.
[27:39]And I feel like they,
[27:40]well, I think they've definitely know of each other.
[27:44]I'm not sure like what projects they've done together,
[27:46]but yes, they work in a similar space.
[27:49]Yeah.
[27:49]Well, maybe we can do that.
[27:50]That would be cool.
[27:51]That would be amazing.
[27:52]That would be amazing.
[27:53]Yeah, absolutely.
[27:54]Absolutely.
[27:55]And I also loved your piece on Joan Rivers
[27:57]and how she was always so seriously
[28:02]so open about her husband's suicide
[28:03]and how she didn't couch it
[28:05]and how refreshing that was.
[28:07]How it helps get it out there.
[28:09]It almost like helps you, if you can say it
[28:12]and helps you process like your shock
[28:14]and how you feel isn't,
[28:16]you can see it on someone else's face like a mirror.
[28:18]Right.
[28:19]And not explaining that one.
[28:20]No, no, I know what you're saying.
[28:20]Like I felt so weird for so long.
[28:22]Like people were always like,
[28:23]oh, there's a girl who's brother coming to suicide, you know?
[28:26]You kind of had, carry this like weird.
[28:27]And people are so awkward around you
[28:29]because they don't know how to bring it up
[28:31]or how to discuss it or people don't want to discuss it.
[28:34]And you know, you do want to talk about it.
[28:37]Like I want to talk about my brother.
[28:38]Like I love him, you know?
[28:40]So it is this like weird thing.
[28:42]And so when someone, and she was,
[28:44]I mean, she was talking about suicide way, way, early on, you know?
[28:48]So I feel like, yeah, it's great to break those.
[28:52]You know, it's much in some weird ways.
[28:54]It's easier to talk if someone is cancer.
[28:56]It's like, okay, you know, it's less scary, maybe, you know?
[29:01]Yep. So, yeah.
[29:03]So thank you, Joan.
[29:05]Thank you for sharing your experience.
[29:07]And I'm sure it helps so much other people
[29:09]who are going through this who might not be able
[29:11]don't have the forum to express how they feel.
[29:13]And anyway, it was just, I know, thank you so much.
[29:16]Now you have to write a memoir.
[29:18]Oh, yes. Nobody wants to know.
[29:20]Yes, they do.
[29:22]Yes, they do. I swear to it.
[29:24]That's really like so many good moments.
[29:25]It's me right one. I feel like you need to write one.
[29:28]I, I, I'm working on that.
[29:30]Oh, there you go.
[29:31]Okay, well aside from my idea for your next book,
[29:34]what else do you have coming up?
[29:36]Are you thinking about writing anything new?
[29:37]Or do you have two more journalism?
[29:38]I know you're avid writer already.
[29:40]Yes, I am working on my proposal for my next book.
[29:43]I, it's been like a little hard
[29:44]because I've been trying to do publicity for this book,
[29:47]which is coming out in like two weeks, which is crazy.
[29:50]But yes, I am, I have an idea.
[29:53]I am working on it.
[29:54]It is nothing to do with real estate or New York actually.
[29:57]But I think it'll be really cool.
[29:59]And I'm excited.
[30:00]I had it before it, hopefully I'm sending good energy out there that it'll get done.
[30:04]Yeah, so I'm hoping to be done with it in the next week or two and then start, you know,
[30:09]talking to my agent more about it.
[30:11]Excellent.
[30:12]Yeah.
[30:13]Do you have any parting advice to aspiring writers?
[30:15]Oh, God.
[30:16]I mean, I feel like in my career I fought tooth and nail fur for everything, you know,
[30:23]it was tough and journalism is hard and especially now there's not, you know, there's
[30:29]just it's really hard to get, you know, there's just fewer jobs out there, so many
[30:34]more people are freelance.
[30:36]I feel like it really comes down to being accurate, you know, editors really want to make
[30:41]sure that if they trust you and they're taking a pitch that you're going to be accurate,
[30:47]you're fact checking that you know what you're doing and they can trust you.
[30:51]It's such a trust thing.
[30:52]So I feel like, you know, be really careful when you're pitching and when you're doing stories,
[30:57]I feel like your by-line is your calling card.
[31:00]So that's really important and, you know, just try, I feel like every time I walk around,
[31:06]I come up with story ideas, you know, everything around you is always a story idea.
[31:09]If you're looking that way, so I feel like just have that awareness and then, yeah,
[31:14]just go for it.
[31:15]That's great.
[31:16]Is that good?
[31:17]That was great.
[31:18]That was great.
[31:19]I love that.
[31:20]Okay.
[31:21]Thanks for coming on mom.
[31:22]Thank you so much.
[31:23]Thank you so much.
[31:24]I know.
[31:25]It was great.
[31:28]And to my sponsor, mermaid pillow co, mermaid pillow co.com slash zibi and her code zibi for 10% off.
[31:37]Thanks so much.
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[31:41]Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[31:43]You can follow me on Instagram at moms don't have time to read books and at zibi Owens
[31:49]and my new podcast at kids do have time to read.
[31:52]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing.
[31:56]And thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[32:01]Thanks for listening.
[32:02]You can always email me at zibi at zibi Owens.com.