Lisa Barr, THE UNBREAKABLES
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[0:59]So I'm really excited to be here today with Lisa Barr.
[1:02]Lisa is the award-winning author of the historical thriller, Fugitive Colors, her most recent
[1:07]sexy betread is The Unbreakable.
[1:10]Lisa was the editor of the Jerusalem Post, Managing Editor of today's Chicago Woman, Managing
[1:15]Editor of Moment Magazine, and an editor of Order for the Chicago Sometime.
[1:20]She's also the creator of the popular Parenting Blog, Gorilla Warfare, and has been
[1:25]featured on Good Morning America and today for her work as an author, journalist, and
[1:28]blogger.
[1:29]She earned her Masters in Journalism from the Middle School of Journalism at Northwestern
[1:33]and lives in the Chicago area with her husband and three children.
[1:36]All right?
[1:37]You got it.
[1:38]All right.
[1:39]Well done.
[1:40]So welcome.
[1:41]Lisa, thanks for coming on.
[1:42]Thank you.
[1:43]Thanks for having me.
[1:44]This is so great to finally meet you in person.
[1:46]You too.
[1:47]You too.
[1:48]I know.
[1:49]So many emails.
[1:50]So many emails.
[1:51]I love all of your posting.
[1:52]It's great.
[1:53]It's great.
[1:54]Yeah.
[1:55]So can you tell listeners what The Unbreakable is about and what inspired you to write
[1:59]it?
[2:00]Well, The Unbreakable is about a woman from Chicago whose husband and best friends end
[2:06]up betraying her.
[2:07]And she loses everything, basically, in one fell swoop.
[2:12]And she decides to go to Paris first to meet her daughter who's also dealing with her
[2:18]own heartbreak.
[2:19]And once she gets out there, she makes a split decision to go to the South of France to
[2:25]really heal from her wounds.
[2:27]And there she reclaims her sensuality and also her abilities as a sculptor, which she pretty
[2:35]much let go of.
[2:36]And the book came about.
[2:38]It was July 2015.
[2:41]And I don't know if you remember this, but the Ashley Madison hat.
[2:45]Yeah, first.
[2:46]Okay.
[2:47]So Ashley Madison, their motto is life is short, having a fair, despicable, right?
[2:53]Anyway, hackers got to hold it this and they threatened Ashley Madison.
[2:57]If you don't shut this site down, we are going to expose all of your, you know, users.
[3:03]So of course they thought it was a bluff and very soon after more than 32 million users
[3:10]were exposed.
[3:12]So there I was out with friends for dinner.
[3:16]And one of the friends said, got the list and it was the list of our suburb, the suburb
[3:21]next to us and the one nearby.
[3:24]And it's not my proudest moment I had to say, but he started reading off the names.
[3:30]And there I was.
[3:31]I was completely shocked.
[3:32]It was friends from different parts in my life, you know, high school, college, friends
[3:38]of my kids, you know, parents.
[3:42]And I was shocked and I kept wondering to myself, oh my God, what now?
[3:47]What's going to happen now that these names are all exposed?
[3:50]And so the story began to form.
[3:51]Oh my gosh.
[3:52]I know I emailed you when I started reading this.
[3:53]I was like, did this happen to you?
[3:55]Tell me this did not happen to me.
[3:56]No, this did not happen to me.
[3:58]It did not happen to me.
[3:59]But I'd be imagining what could happen.
[4:01]Yeah.
[4:02]And then the other thing that inspired me simultaneously, one of my daughters was going
[4:07]through, you know, the traumatic high school breakup and, you know, a long relationship.
[4:13]And it's devastating.
[4:14]We all know that first heartbreak.
[4:16]I've been there.
[4:17]That has happened to me.
[4:19]And I thought to myself, could a relationship from high school, last and go the distance,
[4:24]you know, with all the evolving we do as women and as as and as men, could it go
[4:29]the distance?
[4:30]And Sophie blew my protagonist's case.
[4:33]She does marry your high school sweetheart.
[4:35]She's been with one man and then things started to break down.
[4:40]And so that's where it all kind of fell together in my crazy writer head.
[4:44]That's awesome.
[4:45]Yeah.
[4:46]The stuff about being a sculptor, yeah, stuff that was not very eloquent.
[4:50]The parts of the book where you describe being a sculptor were particularly interesting
[4:54]to me because I don't ever really read about that.
[4:57]You read about artists and painting and I've never sculpted myself.
[5:00]So I was wondering, do you sculpt or do you know someone well who's a sculptor?
[5:04]How did you know all the terms and it was so real?
[5:07]Like I felt like now I could do it now.
[5:10]How did you go?
[5:11]I could do it now.
[5:12]You know, my first book, it was about artists, you know, during World War II, the eve
[5:17]of World War II.
[5:18]And I just, I'm so passionate about art, you know, I can't paint.
[5:22]I can't sing, but I can, you know, I can belt it out in my car, you know, like, you
[5:26]know, my kids would be mortified.
[5:28]But with sculpting, I decided I wanted to, you know, try something, sculpting is really
[5:34]a metaphor in this book.
[5:36]And it's not just that she's sculpting, but in a sense, she's creating a masterpiece.
[5:42]And what you see, which is actually creating a masterpiece, but also creating a masterpiece,
[5:47]which is her own life.
[5:49]And I decided that I needed to really investigate that.
[5:53]So I met a sculptor when I was in Napa and he, you know, I stayed with him for a while
[5:59]and he gave me all the terms and he told me where to go and what to look up.
[6:03]And so I really did the research on it.
[6:05]And I kind of fell in love with it as I was researching.
[6:09]I know.
[6:10]The way you wrote about it, it made it sound very appealing to me.
[6:13]Yeah.
[6:14]Okay.
[6:15]Well, if I ever need a new hobby.
[6:16]Yeah, exactly.
[6:17]I mean, do you think about it just taking a block of stone and yeah, creating, it's amazing.
[6:21]It's amazing.
[6:22]It's amazing.
[6:23]Yeah.
[6:24]So Sophie in your book, her life basically changes in an instant, similar to your friends
[6:28]who were at the dinner, people that you knew.
[6:30]And she says, I can't believe that just a few hours ago we were all sitting at a trendy
[6:34]downtown restaurant enjoying good wine and celebrating my birthday.
[6:38]And I should say Sophie in the book finds out, can I say this?
[6:41]Yeah, yeah.
[6:42]That's okay.
[6:43]Sophie, the protection of the book finds out that her husband was on the list.
[6:46]Yes.
[6:47]And that is how the rest of the plot unfolds.
[6:49]My life was still the same, good, comfortable, dependable, oblivious.
[6:52]I was not this cheated on, pathetic, totally lost, watered down version of me.
[6:57]So I feel like this is the beginning of Sophie's shift and identity and personality.
[7:01]Did you intend to sort of weave that through?
[7:03]Like was it intentional to show the different phases that she went through and the contrast
[7:09]from where she started?
[7:10]Yeah.
[7:11]I mean, you hit it exactly on the nose.
[7:12]So you know, we all hear about there's a breakup and you have to go through the five
[7:16]stages of grief, really in a breakup, whether it's a loss.
[7:20]And I wanted to kind of ban show everything breakdown for her and then how she was going
[7:27]to build herself up.
[7:29]And in the beginning or as, and this is not a spoiler as well, Sophie decides to kind of
[7:34]bypass the stages of grief and in a sense, you know, denial 101.
[7:40]And I think where I was going with that is trying to create a situation where she would
[7:46]end up going through the stages of grief in obviously very different scenarios and end
[7:52]up on the other side.
[7:53]So it was intentional and I felt like the reader needed to feel the explosion of Sophie's
[7:59]life from the get-go.
[8:01]And you described the explosion really well when you said, so when Sophie's going through
[8:05]the words for feelings, you right, it says if I have been blown to smithereens and somehow
[8:09]survive the trauma with no arms, no legs, just remainders, head and heart to comprehend
[8:14]and feel it all.
[8:15]I want to die and I want to live.
[8:17]I want to cry and I want to scream.
[8:19]I want to laugh at the absurdity and I want to go start raving men.
[8:23]And that is when she had denied it and then she's all of a sudden went from, you know, anger,
[8:30]sadness and you what you hit on was rage.
[8:33]She was, you know, about to go postal basically and let it all out.
[8:39]And in that scene is really a change you see in Sophie kind of accepting her rage and then
[8:45]moving on from there.
[8:47]So when I was reading all of this in the back of my head, I was like, I wonder if this happened
[8:50]to Lisa.
[8:51]She really angry about something, did she go through something like this?
[8:54]And then as I was not to be creepy, but then I was researching you and I found out that
[8:58]you had also gone through a divorce and your ex husband was no longer in the picture.
[9:03]Yes.
[9:04]When your daughters were young, can you talk about that at all?
[9:06]I know.
[9:07]I'm an open book.
[9:10]So it's okay.
[9:11]It's funny when you say that with your open book, it was exactly that in my case, which
[9:18]was also where my husband disappeared and I, we haven't seen or heard from him since
[9:25]2002.
[9:27]I mean, literally disappeared and I even had three private detectives trying to find him.
[9:32]I mean, it's out of a bad after school special Donna Dixon movie, you know, and one day
[9:38]to the next.
[9:39]Yes.
[9:40]And so basically he left and at that time, my girls are, you know, college age now,
[9:46]but they were three and five and they never got to say goodbye.
[9:51]And it was a lot of picking up the pieces and you can just imagine how traumatic that
[9:56]was.
[9:57]You know, because I know you have your four kids, right?
[9:59]Yeah.
[10:00]It was traumatic, and so he disappeared,
[10:00]And so.
[10:02]cleaned out my bank account, and I did.
[10:04]He did, and I was left with,
[10:06]and I still have the receipt, 67 cents in my bank account.
[10:09]No, yeah, and so it was a lot of trauma,
[10:13]and I was kind of like Sophie,
[10:15]where I had this job.
[10:17]I was a journalist, I was a professional,
[10:21]and then it was this nightmare that just happened,
[10:24]and it was pure survival,
[10:26]and literally for two years,
[10:29]I slept three hours a night
[10:30]in order to make our lives work,
[10:33]and as you know, when you're going through a trauma
[10:35]or divorce, you still have to be fun mom.
[10:38]Right, you can.
[10:39]And even when you're going through your worst possible scenario,
[10:43]so when you're talking about the rage earlier,
[10:46]that's how I felt, and then later on,
[10:48]even though my story and Sophie's were very different,
[10:52]those same emotional, all the feels
[10:55]that went through this book were a lot of things
[10:56]that I too experienced.
[10:58]Okay, I have to ask a little about that.
[10:59]Yeah, no, no, no, no.
[11:00]Did you have any idea he was going to leave?
[11:02]I, like, did you talk about, like,
[11:03]maybe you should split up, or did you just, like,
[11:05]there were, you know,
[11:06]obviously we were married at the time nine years,
[11:08]so it was pretty much of a surprise.
[11:12]I knew so sorry, I had to do that.
[11:14]I knew so, sorry, I had to do that.
[11:14]Thank you.
[11:15]And, I mean, things weren't great,
[11:17]but having come from divorce,
[11:19]I think, and just to be perfectly honest,
[11:22]divorce scared me more than death scares me,
[11:24]and it just, that is the truth.
[11:26]And so I really wanted to hang on to this,
[11:30]even though it wasn't great for me,
[11:32]and clearly it wasn't great for him either,
[11:34]but I wanted to hang on at all cost,
[11:37]and then there was a huge cost.
[11:40]And really, I spent the next three years or so,
[11:43]it was all about my kids,
[11:45]like getting them to go from being in so much pain
[11:48]to being okay, and so it was a lot of survival at that time.
[11:52]I was similar to you, my parents were divorced,
[11:53]and when I got married, I was like,
[11:55]no matter how miserable I end up,
[11:57]I will never get divorced.
[11:58]Yeah.
[11:59]And then I didn't end up getting divorced.
[12:00]Yes.
[12:01]And then, but then look at, look who you've got,
[12:03]the guy with the helmet.
[12:04]You know what?
[12:05]You know, hey.
[12:06]And no, but I feel like when you start out,
[12:09]you have all the, well, anyway, I don't want to.
[12:10]Yeah, no, I get it,
[12:12]and if it's something you want to talk about live,
[12:14]I'm not going to talk about it, but it is really traumatic.
[12:18]And, but I think the thing that happens,
[12:20]and which is clear in the book,
[12:21]is that so much of us, as mothers,
[12:25]it's so much about our kids and our kids,
[12:28]that when we finally get to us at the very end,
[12:31]you know, if there's, you're sort of lost,
[12:33]and she was lost, she didn't know how to do Sophie,
[12:35]just as Sophie, because that wasn't her experience
[12:39]or how she parented.
[12:40]Yeah.
[12:41]And then it was so empowering how she finds herself.
[12:43]Finds her way.
[12:43]And she's like, I'm just going to do this,
[12:45]and she deletes everything.
[12:46]I mean, that was like, is she really doing this?
[12:48]Yes.
[12:49]She's just starting over.
[12:50]It's starting over from scratch.
[12:51]From scratch.
[12:52]Yeah.
[12:53]And I think it's, it's like a perfect novel, right?
[12:56]Because you're like, oh, what would happen
[12:58]if I just rebooted, right?
[12:59]Right.
[13:00]Which is kind of what, you know?
[13:01]Yeah, and I think it's also, you know,
[13:03]where it's the breakables,
[13:05]it has a lot of different symbolism
[13:06]and various points in the book,
[13:08]but I think what it really is,
[13:09]is that your spirit is unbreakable at the end of the day.
[13:12]It's the triumph of the spirit
[13:14]with all the adversity and things that can happen.
[13:17]It's like, I'm still standing, you know?
[13:20]No matter all these things that happen.
[13:22]So I feel like in the beginning,
[13:23]there was so much of her trying to understand
[13:26]how she missed it.
[13:27]Yeah.
[13:28]And now I'm wondering if that came from,
[13:30]if you had felt that, I mean, it must,
[13:31]like, cause I felt like Sophie just kept saying,
[13:33]well, how did I miss this and how did I miss that?
[13:35]And then she starts taking it apart.
[13:37]Well, there was that thing at the prom.
[13:39]Right.
[13:39]There was that, you know, night when I was like,
[13:41]maybe I don't know, just when you go back
[13:44]and you like doubt yourself.
[13:45]Yeah.
[13:46]I mean, haven't you ever been side-swiped?
[13:48]Yes, of course.
[13:49]Like when you think, you know, I'm together,
[13:51]I'm, you know, I see myself as a smart person
[13:53]and intuitive and perceptive.
[13:55]And then how did I blow this?
[13:57]How did I not see what was right there?
[14:00]And so, yes, that's exactly the same thing with Sophie.
[14:05]And then part of Sophie's new persona,
[14:08]she like redoes, she does her hair all over again.
[14:11]And she highlights her hair
[14:12]and I'm sitting there reading this and I was like,
[14:13]I just highlighted, maybe this is like a divorce thing.
[14:16]And then even more drastic, she got bangs.
[14:18]Yes, and bangs, which makes sense.
[14:22]But, you know, you see that a lot.
[14:24]You know, whatever problems weren't a marriage,
[14:26]like you see someone who, you know,
[14:27]will get a boob job right after the breakup.
[14:30]Or they'll, you know, all of a sudden start to work out
[14:33]or a husband who's like done nothing,
[14:35]but still on the couch and all of a sudden,
[14:36]he's everywhere and doing things.
[14:38]And you wonder why couldn't that have happened
[14:40]during the marriage?
[14:41]And I think when it comes down to it,
[14:45]it's like all of a sudden you're raw again, it's just you.
[14:48]And you're thinking to yourself,
[14:50]how can I be the newest, freshest best version of myself?
[14:55]And so, maybe it comes down to highlights.
[14:57]Right before I got remarried,
[15:00]I went to a sales cycle class.
[15:01]Yeah, I haven't done it in years,
[15:03]but I used to go before my wedding.
[15:05]And the teacher said that the word recover,
[15:10]you know, how we rest, recover between like spinning.
[15:12]Yeah.
[15:14]The word recover applies to so much
[15:16]because you're actually recovering physically,
[15:18]but also recovering yourself, right?
[15:20]Making like a new body almost.
[15:23]Yes.
[15:23]And I thought about that when I was getting married
[15:25]because not only do you recover from whatever,
[15:28]but you're oftentimes dying your hair,
[15:31]you're getting new clothes,
[15:32]or you're taking off to the South of France
[15:34]or something to make yourself new again.
[15:37]And that allows you to recover?
[15:39]Exactly.
[15:39]Exactly.
[15:40]And then you also think like in this lifetime,
[15:43]and if you're blessed with years,
[15:45]it's like there's so many lives that happen in one,
[15:47]you know, like my divorce was so traumatic,
[15:50]but I ended up marrying the second time around.
[15:52]I got it right with the best guy in the world
[15:55]who ended up adopting my kids.
[15:57]Oh, no way.
[15:58]Yeah, so they have this beautiful father
[16:03]who taught them to do everything.
[16:05]And he's the guy, he's the guy, he's the their dad.
[16:08]He's there for these girls.
[16:09]And I could well up thinking about that,
[16:11]but that's the dad that they know now
[16:14]and they're going to have a great experience with men
[16:18]because of this man who I married.
[16:20]And so it is, it's this you.
[16:23]And so I think of all the trials and tribulations
[16:28]that you go through and everyone goes through them
[16:30]if you're having a divorce or a loss or something.
[16:33]And then you come out of it on the other end
[16:34]and it's almost like it fades.
[16:36]It starts to really fade away.
[16:38]How resilient are you though?
[16:39]I mean, to go.
[16:40]How resilient are you?
[16:41]No, but you know, it's it's.
[16:43]And then to have it be in book form
[16:45]and all the things you've contributed
[16:47]in the great blog and everything.
[16:49]I mean, it's great.
[16:50]Well, I have to tell you a funny story.
[16:52]But funny, not funny.
[16:53]So in between my first book and this book,
[16:56]there was another book that was written.
[16:59]And it was a memoir of our experience.
[17:02]And I asked both of my girls.
[17:03]I said, can I write our story?
[17:06]And they said, only if we can pick out our names.
[17:09]Okay, so I'm like done.
[17:10]So I spent over a year and a half writing this memoir
[17:14]and I put it all out there.
[17:15]My heart and my soul.
[17:17]And then one of my daughters was entering high school
[17:20]and she said, mommy, please don't put this book out.
[17:23]It's gonna be so embarrassing.
[17:25]And so here I just spent really all this time
[17:28]and you know how it is when it comes down to book
[17:31]or your kids, it's your kids at the end of the day.
[17:33]And there you go.
[17:34]So I shelved it.
[17:35]But I put a lot of those emotions in this book.
[17:37]So that's kind of what happened there.
[17:40]I mean, did you have the ridiculous sex scenes
[17:43]and the daughter and the version that your daughter's at?
[17:45]Okay, yeah, okay.
[17:46]I can see her finding some embarrassing that.
[17:48]Okay, so she hasn't seen me, you know,
[17:51]I was like blushing and some of the stuff in this book.
[17:54]Let's talk about the sex scene, okay.
[17:56]Okay, so I did sit my girls, I have three daughters.
[17:59]I have a stuffed daughter, but they're all my daughters.
[18:02]I don't call them stepper or, you know,
[18:04]originals or whatever you want, biological.
[18:06]They're all my daughters.
[18:07]And I did tell them, I said,
[18:09]this book is very different from fugitive colors
[18:11]and it gets a little racy and they're like,
[18:13]oh my God, I said, it's okay, it's gonna be okay.
[18:17]I promise.
[18:18]And I said, it's the character, it's not me.
[18:20]And it is, it's the character, it's not me.
[18:23]But, you know, I've had my experiences just not so.
[18:27]If he's experiences, but what I think, you know,
[18:29]I was thinking about this on the drive over here.
[18:32]Because I knew sex would come up with our discussion.
[18:36]And it's really, if you look at the sex scenes,
[18:39]it's really what's going on in the sex scenes
[18:42]that's aside from the sex.
[18:44]It's what's in Sophie's head.
[18:46]This is the first time she's been with anyone else
[18:49]outside of her husband and at 42 years old.
[18:53]So this is gonna be big,
[18:55]but obviously this was blow your mind, sex, right?
[18:57]But I needed to have something, again,
[19:00]so profound for Sophie that it would really,
[19:05]you know, make her stop in her tracks.
[19:07]And it really forced her to think about the before,
[19:10]forced her to think about her husband in this
[19:12]and about passion and sort of what her takeaway was afterward.
[19:16]So I think when you're writing a sex scene,
[19:20]it's the least important part about it is actually the sex itself.
[19:25]Okay.
[19:25]And then we could make it steamy, it gets exciting.
[19:28]But that's what I was going for as well.
[19:32]And tell me a little more about your process
[19:34]of writing this book.
[19:35]So you wrote that memoir, she'll did.
[19:37]She's decided to import some of the feelings.
[19:39]Right.
[19:40]And then how long did it take to write this book?
[19:41]And where and when do you like to write?
[19:43]Like, do you write it home?
[19:44]Yes, yes.
[19:45]Okay, those are great questions.
[19:46]Okay, so this book, my first book took a very long time.
[19:50]It was a lot of research.
[19:51]This book just spilled out of me.
[19:54]I mean, literally spilled.
[19:56]I made a deadline for myself.
[19:58]And now that my kids are older, the time.
[20:00]I'm is mine, you know, I'm sure you know, because you have a mix of ages of kids.
[20:04]My time is not mine.
[20:05]And so when I, my kids were younger, it was all about stealing time.
[20:09]Put a video on.
[20:10]I've got 20 minutes.
[20:11]Put, you know, when I was nursing one of my daughters, I would type one handed.
[20:16]I never slept when they slept when they were babies.
[20:18]I, it was stealing.
[20:20]Who does that?
[20:21]I was sleeping.
[20:22]I was like, I don't know how much to get done.
[20:24]Yeah.
[20:25]I was sleeping.
[20:26]Nice sleep.
[20:27]And so it was all about stealing time.
[20:28]Now I have time.
[20:29]I wake up early and I, I get to work.
[20:33]And so I work most of the day and then I do all my mom, errands and stuff later on.
[20:39]But I usually write at a cafe.
[20:41]So it, it's been where I've had my little spot in Starbucks.
[20:44]And it's funny.
[20:45]Someone will sit there and see me coming and get up from their seat.
[20:48]I'm like, it's, it's okay.
[20:49]You could sit there.
[20:51]But I found my new little French cafe.
[20:53]So that's where I write.
[20:55]And I work every single day.
[20:58]And I, you know, sometimes whatever it is, I could put out a thousand words in the next
[21:03]day.
[21:04]I'll look at it and say, oh my God, this is crap.
[21:05]Or the next day, I'll say this is great and, you know, keep going.
[21:09]So this one just spilled out of me.
[21:11]I think it just, it was in me.
[21:14]And so this took about a year or so to write, which is a pretty short time or reasonable,
[21:19]I guess.
[21:20]And then obviously there's, you know, the editing, the revision, rinse and repeat.
[21:24]Right.
[21:25]And so that, that's been the process there with the writing.
[21:29]How are you working on another book now?
[21:31]So I just turned something into my agent and I'm going to kind of hear where that all went
[21:36]tomorrow.
[21:38]And, but it's, it's again very different from this one.
[21:41]So I think I have, you know, achieved the cardinal sin and writing where I've been John
[21:48]would jump in and, you know, you're supposed to stay with your brand.
[21:51]So my first book was Historical Suspense.
[21:54]This is Hardcore Women's Fiction.
[21:57]And this next one is a little bit of a combo.
[22:00]It is suspense.
[22:01]It utilizes all my journalism background.
[22:04]And it's about a young journalist who's pit edge lands on this story.
[22:09]And it's against the top terrorist who actually happens to be a woman.
[22:13]So it's a woman versus woman type of story.
[22:17]And she's a mom and, you know, different things happen.
[22:19]So.
[22:20]I didn't give any, any pushback about the genre.
[22:23]I'm here.
[22:24]We're going to talk about it.
[22:25]Okay.
[22:26]But, but we'll see.
[22:27]But I've got another book as well that kind of goes in the line in lines with the
[22:32]unbreakables if this one has to, you know, be put aside.
[22:36]So I'm prepared.
[22:38]So we could have like a whole nother podcast just about your article in women and
[22:44]drafted in gorilla, which talked about, and is this okay?
[22:47]I don't know.
[22:48]I said, of course.
[22:49]So you write about how when you were 12, you battled anorexia in nervosa.
[22:54]You were hospitalized.
[22:55]It took two years to get back to a normal way, you went down to 45 pounds, which just
[23:00]breaks my heart.
[23:01]Yeah.
[23:02]I mean, I mean, the whole thing.
[23:03]And you write the essay about going back to the treatment center and, you know, doing good,
[23:08]talking to families and patients and how that was so emotional for you on so many levels,
[23:13]which I can only imagine and tell me, just go.
[23:16]Sure.
[23:17]So, you know, I was 12 years old and at that time eating disorders, they really didn't
[23:23]know very much about them.
[23:24]In fact, my dad had to write to the Library of Congress to get information on anorexia
[23:29]nervosa.
[23:30]And so at that time, I was, you know, I had a lot of friends.
[23:35]I was, you know, in the center of things in school, but I was dealing with a very traumatic
[23:39]divorce with my parents.
[23:42]And I was the eldest of four and kind of holding down the fort.
[23:47]And I think it was a lot of pressure for such a young girl.
[23:51]And I hit it from my friends, no one knew how bad things were at home.
[23:56]So I think that pressure and trying to stay in control broke down my system.
[24:01]And I started losing weight, not understanding, started exercising, you know, relentlessly.
[24:08]And the weight just started to drop and then it became uncontrollable.
[24:11]And so I went, at that time, I was always kind of small and, you know, I went from probably
[24:16]a normal 75, 80 at that time to 45 pounds and nearly died.
[24:23]And so I know it's heartbreaking.
[24:25]You know, I think back to that little girl back then and how much I went through.
[24:31]But, you know, even with everything, I knew I was going to be okay in the end.
[24:36]And I had great therapists at that time and a lot of help.
[24:41]And I got back on my feet and a lot of young women don't.
[24:44]But I think because I was so young, all I wanted to do was to go to overnight camp with
[24:49]my friends.
[24:50]And so in order for me to go, I had to gain 30 pounds.
[24:54]And I think had I been in high school or later on where these habits are so cemented,
[25:00]I would not have been able to do it.
[25:01]But at that time, I just wanted to be with my friend.
[25:03]So I was able to put on the weight in order to go a year later to overnight camp.
[25:09]But I think the real work probably took, I would say, 10 years of dealing with a lot
[25:15]of the pain that wraps around divorce and a lot of the pressure that goes with it.
[25:21]But the good, the silver lining that comes out of it, I've worked with a lot of girls and
[25:26]some young men with eating disorders.
[25:29]And I, you know, still to this day work with different young women, you know, privately,
[25:35]you know, just between us talking about the real stuff that goes with that.
[25:39]So I'm fully recovered and, you know, but I think it's something that's always part
[25:47]of you, you know, and part of so many young women, whether we're battling weight or we're
[25:53]battling different messages.
[25:55]And for so many women, it comes to you are not enough.
[25:58]That's the bottom line message.
[26:00]So if I could give anything to women, to young women, to teenagers, to women, our age,
[26:07]you are enough.
[26:08]And that's where I really try to push.
[26:10]And even in this book, it's like to Sophie trying to figure out everything.
[26:14]And in the end, she kind of figures out, hey, you know what?
[26:17]I am enough.
[26:18]And she really, really tackles, you know, all the different things that go around what
[26:24]happens to her and really blossoms.
[26:27]And I think, you know, I wouldn't take back what happened to me.
[26:30]It was traumatic and as you can imagine.
[26:33]But it kind of made me who I am, the writer who I am, the mom who I am, you know, a lot
[26:39]of my girls, friends, seek me out to talk to.
[26:43]And so I wouldn't have gotten that, you know, when you've sometimes been through hell
[26:46]and back, you have a lot that you could help people.
[26:50]And so, yeah, that's what happened there.
[26:53]But it's all hard of me.
[26:54]Yeah.
[26:55]Yeah.
[26:56]Absolutely.
[26:57]And I'm, you know, I'm always open to any questions about that because I think so many
[27:01]women battle, you know, food, weight, relation, you know, all those things relating, whether
[27:06]it's overeating or under eating or the pain around it.
[27:10]And it's, it's so important to address it and talk about it as women.
[27:15]So I'm always happy to talk to you.
[27:17]Did you have a plan with your daughters?
[27:19]I know you said on the article, you know, anytime they said like, do I look fat or all these
[27:23]things?
[27:24]You're like, oh my gosh, no.
[27:26]It's hard because, you know, girls doubt themselves and they compare themselves and especially
[27:32]in this awful, you know, cyber world of everything you do or say.
[27:38]And not only that, you can take your image and alter it.
[27:42]So the sense of what's real and what's not is so mixed up these days.
[27:47]I think it's really hard for girls and young women these days to develop, to be themselves,
[27:53]to not, you know, there's always a picture or an Insta shot or something like that at
[27:58]all times.
[27:59]There's no break from it.
[28:01]So I would imagine it's really hard to grow up as a girl to a young women these days.
[28:07]And so I've got three of them.
[28:10]And there's a lot of stuff that goes on with that and it's work on a daily basis.
[28:15]And even though I've been through that experience, that's not their experience.
[28:21]So they're going to deal with it differently and, you know, it's hard.
[28:25]And I think as moms, there's, you know, you just have to keep making them feel like
[28:31]that they are enough and whatever they weigh, whatever they do, you know, whoever they
[28:37]are because society tells them over and over that they're not enough.
[28:42]And it's a hard thing to combat as a mom raising daughters, especially.
[28:47]and boys go through some of these things, but not the same, you know?
[28:51]Yeah.
[28:52]And you did such a lovely job of your mother-daughter relationship in this book, you know,
[28:55]the push and pull.
[28:56]Yeah.
[28:57]Because as they, you know, with a college-aged daughter and how she needs her mom when
[29:01]she gets hurt.
[29:02]Yes.
[29:03]And then when she's feeling better, she's fine.
[29:04]And then she wants her dad and that whole dynamic, which is complicated.
[29:07]Yes.
[29:08]It's really complicated, especially an only child having to navigate to parents, you know,
[29:14]because it becomes kind of like the three of you.
[29:16]You're a trio against the world.
[29:18]And when that falls apart, you know, you're just left standing as, you know, as Ava isn't
[29:23]the daughter, but she's not really standing.
[29:26]And so, you know, and as the mom, you're going through sometimes your own hell, and yet
[29:31]you still have to be mom.
[29:33]And that's a lot of work sometimes.
[29:36]And you just, at the end of the day, you're like, splat on your bed, you know?
[29:40]I mean, I would literally drive into my driveway and feel like I could just plop on the
[29:45]driveway sometimes after, you know, dealing with a lot of things that I was going through
[29:50]and then dealing with your kids' stuff.
[29:52]And those rare moments when it all works, you know, are treasured, you know?
[29:57]Yeah.
[29:58]Yeah.
[29:59]Yeah.
[30:00]You have any advice to aspiring authors,
[30:02]especially having written some very different books?
[30:04]Yes, yes.
[30:06]Okay, well, you know, the obvious is don't give up.
[30:08]Rejection is very hard, and especially as writers,
[30:11]we're probably the most sensitive people out there.
[30:14]And you know, there's a lot of rejection.
[30:16]But I also think, you know,
[30:18]the one thing that's really great
[30:20]about this whole cyber world,
[30:22]if you know, there's things that are really tough,
[30:24]but here's the good thing.
[30:25]You can create a community.
[30:27]And so that's the beauty.
[30:29]I mean, here you are doing this,
[30:31]but then you've got a whole community you've created.
[30:34]You know, as a writer,
[30:35]I have all these different writers' groups
[30:37]that I'm part of.
[30:38]And so sometimes it's so great when you,
[30:40]you know, I've become very close friends with people,
[30:43]you know, through the internet or whatever it is.
[30:46]And then you meet them in person.
[30:48]But we're going through all the same experiences.
[30:50]And it doesn't matter if you are a starting out writer
[30:54]or you're a New York Times bestseller.
[30:56]But we all have the same insecurities.
[30:58]We all have the same things we're going through.
[31:00]A lot of us are moms struggling like,
[31:03]oh my God, if I can just get time to write,
[31:05]we're when, how, you know,
[31:07]and or we put out a book and you're just,
[31:11]you put so much into it and, you know,
[31:13]someone criticizes it or someone gives it a one star
[31:16]with no reason on Amazon.
[31:18]And you can't do anything about it.
[31:20]But I think one is, you know, don't give up
[31:25]to, you know, develop a community, find it.
[31:29]Even if you're the new kid on the block, okay?
[31:31]And you find it, it's gonna, you know,
[31:33]feel like middle school again a little bit breaking in.
[31:36]But once you do, you know, you're in
[31:38]and you become part of a community.
[31:40]So that is probably the most important thing.
[31:43]As writers, we do so much alone.
[31:45]We're alone.
[31:46]So don't be alone here.
[31:47]You don't have to, you have to be alone.
[31:49]So that's what I would really recommend
[31:52]is surround yourself with writer friends
[31:54]or going through the same experience.
[31:56]And it helps, it really helps
[31:58]and it nurtures you as well.
[32:00]A lot of ways.
[32:01]Very good, right?
[32:02]Yeah.
[32:03]Well, thank you so much for coming on.
[32:04]Thank you.
[32:05]Thank you so much for having me.
[32:07]Oh my God, thank you so much for having me.
[32:08]I really appreciate it.
[32:09]This is great.
[32:10]Yeah.
[32:11]Thank you.
[32:13]Thanks again to my sponsor, Mermaid PillowCo.
[32:17]Mermaid PillowCo.com slash Zibi and her code Zibi
[32:22]for 10% off.
[32:23]Thanks so much.
[32:24]Check out those really awesome giftable pillows and blankets.
[32:26]Thanks for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[32:29]You can follow me on Instagram at Moms Don't Have Time
[32:32]to Read Books and at Zibi Owens and my new podcast
[32:36]at Kids Do Have Time to Read.
[32:38]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[32:40]for the sound editing.
[32:42]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[32:43]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[32:46]Thanks for listening.
[32:47]You can always email me at Zibi at Zibi Owens.com.