Jamie Brenner, DRAWING HOME
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[0:34]I'm really excited to be here today with Jamie Brenner.
[0:36]Jamie is the author of many books, including The Husband Hour,
[0:39]The Wedding Sisters, The Forever Summer,
[0:41]which was a best seller and her most recent novel, Drawing Home.
[0:45]A graduate of George Washington University in D.C.,
[0:48]Jamie worked at HarperCollins, Barnes Noble,
[0:50]and Vogue and currently lives in New York City.
[0:52]So welcome to Jamie.
[0:53]Thank you for having me, Zivi.
[0:55]I'm very excited to be here. I'm a fan.
[0:57]I have to say, I can't believe you've been doing this for just a year
[1:01]because it seems like the amount of people you've spoken to
[1:04]and it's how much you've done for books.
[1:05]It seems like this has always been around.
[1:07]Oh, thank you.
[1:08]Thank you. And we need more of this.
[1:10]There's a lot of writers and not enough places to really talk about books.
[1:14]I love it. I'm, as you know, I'm like, I do this for fun.
[1:17]I mean, I really do. I love it.
[1:19]So it's all like a dream come true for me to be able to spend my days
[1:23]sitting here talking to authors and reading books.
[1:25]And I mean, it's like so fun.
[1:27]So anyway, I'm glad other people are benefiting from my selfish joy.
[1:33]That's, yes.
[1:35]So drawing home, I read the whole thing nonstop on an airplane.
[1:39]Like could not put it down.
[1:41]Plowed through, loved.
[1:42]It was so good. And like so visual.
[1:45]Like I just felt like it was better than all the other people
[1:47]on the plane watching movies.
[1:49]I mean, I was like so in it.
[1:50]So tell listeners a little bit about what drawing home is about
[1:53]and how you came up with the idea for the book.
[1:55]Okay. So drawing home is the story of a woman who works
[1:58]at the front desk of the American hotel,
[2:01]which is an iconic hotel in the center of Sag Harbor,
[2:06]which is part of the Hamptons.
[2:09]And she's worked there for her whole life,
[2:12]really trying to put things together for herself and her daughter.
[2:16]And at the start of the summer,
[2:18]one of the hotel's most famous bar patrons suddenly drops dead.
[2:23]And this is not a spoiler because it literally happens on like page two.
[2:27]And to the young mother, Emma, my protagonist surprised,
[2:32]she finds out he has left his beautiful house on the water,
[2:36]filled with priceless artwork to her teenage daughter, Penny.
[2:41]While she's trying to figure out how and why this happened,
[2:44]the artist's long time patron from Manhattan sweeps into town
[2:48]to try to rest this inheritance away from Emma and her daughter.
[2:52]And that's the beginning of the book.
[2:55]Just gets better from there.
[2:57]You wrote throughout the book so beautifully about motherhood.
[3:00]And I know you have two daughters yourself.
[3:02]Here's one quote that I really liked.
[3:04]In the early days of motherhood, Emma had wanted nothing more than sleep.
[3:07]Now, all she wanted was more time with her daughter.
[3:09]And then you say how much Emma misses the times when Penny
[3:13]would tuck her warm little body against her as well.
[3:16]Emma fully awake, counted the hours until she had to leave her work.
[3:19]If her own mother had been around, she might have warned Emma
[3:21]that the hardest stage of being a working parent
[3:24]wasn't when your child was small.
[3:26]The tricky part was when a kid was in middle school and high school.
[3:29]Someone had to keep track of Penny's friends, her moods,
[3:31]the overall temperature of her life.
[3:33]Emma should be that person.
[3:34]And lately, she felt she simply wasn't doing a good job.
[3:37]Yeah.
[3:38]Talk to me about that and sort of the ever-shifting demands of motherhood.
[3:42]Well, what no one told me, maybe some people get forewarned.
[3:45]But you think in the beginning, oh my gosh, this is the hardest part,
[3:49]being up all night in the feedings and trying to decipher the needs,
[3:53]anything is going to get easier.
[3:56]And while that is a very, very difficult time, it never gets easier
[4:02]because the challenge is just changed.
[4:05]And what I'm finding now, I feel like people are like going to,
[4:11]you know, they're like so upset to hear that never gets easier.
[4:14]Because easier in the sense that you, as a mother, have more freedom to go out
[4:18]and do your thing and your child's at school and you can communicate,
[4:22]like, you're not wondering, like, oh, are you hungry? Are you tired?
[4:25]Are you sick? What changes is the ability to fix their problems?
[4:31]And my daughters are now 18 and 15.
[4:35]And what I really missed with the 15-year-old was just being able to make her feel better
[4:40]by going to get ice cream or going to marry Arnold for a toy or something.
[4:45]And what I'm hearing from even older mothers is this doesn't change
[4:49]even when your kids are kids of their own.
[4:51]And what I'm learning is it never gets easier,
[4:56]but the one thing you can do to make it easier on yourself as a mother
[5:01]is to understand that you cannot fix everything and it's not your job to fix everything.
[5:07]And trying harder and harder to control, which a lot of type A moms,
[5:13]who, you know, these are moms who have careers and business,
[5:16]the harder you work does not necessarily result in better outcome.
[5:23]So part of motherhood, just like when you're pregnant and you need to let go of your body
[5:28]because it's out of control, part of motherhood is a constant learning to let go a little bit
[5:34]because you cannot fix everything.
[5:37]That was probably the best advice I feel like you are, like, literally talking directly to me.
[5:43]It's, like, the knee-jerk reaction to tread.
[5:46]I like protect the kids because everything is really overpowering.
[5:49]But, you know, I would never expect my mother to fix my problems at this stage.
[5:53]I mean, I hope not.
[5:54]But yeah, she still wants to.
[5:55]I'm sure.
[5:56]I mean, thanks mom.
[5:57]I know you're listening.
[5:58]Yeah.
[5:59]So that is part of what I explore in drawing home is both the ever-changing demands of motherhood
[6:07]and yet somehow it never does change, not from the minute you first hold your baby.
[6:11]You also talk a lot about art and artistic talent in this book, which I found very interesting.
[6:16]It's not always in fiction to hear about people creating this amazing work and everything.
[6:21]And you say in B, one of the characters in your book knew she had an eye for artistic talent.
[6:26]And I like when you said, how did she know the same way Henry, who was the famous artist,
[6:30]knew that the black and blue and the configuration of his painting would work.
[6:33]It was what she was hardwired to do.
[6:35]So do you think that we're all born with skills like this,
[6:39]especially in the visual arena, like art, art appreciation,
[6:42]you know, just being able to, you know, maybe even in the literary world?
[6:47]I do believe that we're all born hardwired with certain things.
[6:51]And I'm fascinated by people who have a visual sense because I have zero.
[6:57]And people who know how to decorate a room or even how to put an outfit together.
[7:03]I feel like that is as innate for them as it is for me to put words down on paper.
[7:09]And it's something, I don't think, maybe you can study it.
[7:14]But people with a true eye, you're born with it.
[7:19]And while I was researching this book, I watched a documentary on and read books about Peggy
[7:26]Guggenheim. And I was really fascinated with her instincts for what was,
[7:32]not only was it valuable art, because it's not about the Monterey Bible,
[7:35]what was meaningful art. And she just knew and she trusted her instincts.
[7:42]And I do believe that's something you're born with. Like an ear from music.
[7:47]Right. And I always say I wish I had a visual sense because I don't.
[7:52]And writing visual stuff in my books is the hardest thing.
[7:56]Like I have to look at rooms, research what's really in that room, and then transfer that to
[8:03]the page. I cannot, I have no visual vocabulary for beauty and architecture and art and clothing.
[8:11]Well, maybe you're like overcompensating because I literally, that's one of the things that I was
[8:16]so struck by was how visual your book was. And now I felt like I was watching a movie.
[8:20]Like you have it, I can see the scene so well. So whatever you sort of, this self-taught
[8:26]ability is, I don't know. I think it's pretty good. Well, anyway, Henry, the artist at one point
[8:31]says, you know, no one, he's talking to Penny, but and Penny, the daughter at one point is thinking
[8:36]of doing a graphic novel. And when she says, you know, she doesn't know how Henry says,
[8:40]no one ever knows how to do anything until they do it. So I was wondering if you've ever had
[8:45]a mentor as great as Henry who like convinced you to try, is that how you started writing this way?
[8:51]Was anyone a mentor to you in this way for what you're doing?
[8:55]I never had a mentor like Henry. I never had a mentor period, which, you know, I'd often wish
[9:00]I did have one. But that bit about no one ever knows how to do something until I do it is something
[9:07]I learned after a very long time of working in book publishing, actually. So I've wanted to be a
[9:14]writer since I was little. But to me, writers were these magical people who could just like put,
[9:20]they just wrote books. It just happened. And I'm like, I can't do that. You know, so I'm like,
[9:24]oh, I'll work in book publishing, at least I'll be around writers. The more I work with writers,
[9:29]the more I realized a lot of them don't know what they're doing. And you wasn't on it.
[9:34]You know, I saw manuscripts come in late. I saw manuscripts come in messy and not working. And I
[9:40]I saw editors fix things. And I saw how much, you know, an art department can augment the story
[9:47]inside the book. And that realization that no one really knows is what gave me the freedom to try.
[9:54]But no one ever told me that. And I grew up in a suburb of Philadelphia. And it wasn't really
[10:00]like an artistic environment versus my kids who grew up in New York who see the day-to-day life
[10:04]of a lot of artistic people. So I had to learn after many years that no one is perfect,
[10:11]no one knows how like the important thing is just putting the effort in and trying.
[10:17]That's great advice too. This is very helpful morning here.
[10:20]So Penny starts taking some little white pills, as you call them,
[10:25]at a party with friends and finds that they end up really helping her. And they help her get
[10:30]through her boring summer job and this historical society. And she's basically self-medicating OCD,
[10:35]which you write about in really beautifully as well. Have you seen this happening sort of
[10:40]the self-medicating trend, if you will, with like friends of your kids or just here in the city or
[10:47]just around the country, you know, Penny was able to stop, but a lot of kids obviously can't
[10:53]really stop. So anyway, can you? Okay. I mean, I could literally do two hours on this topic,
[10:57]but we're going to keep a brief. Let's do two minutes. I'm very opinionated. Okay.
[11:01]So when I was going up, my parents said, don't you drugs, don't smoke pot, it's bad for you.
[11:06]And I'm like, okay. And I didn't. Like, it really wasn't that complicated for me. I don't want to do
[11:10]something that's bad for me. I want to disappoint my parents. So I'm like, I'll have the same
[11:14]talk with my 12 year old. Like, this should go really well. I give her the spiel and then she says
[11:19]to me, okay, I understand it's bad for me, but honestly, I would take anything that makes me feel
[11:26]better. They can stop this endless cycle of obsessing in my mind. So I'm sorry, but I don't know
[11:34]if I can promise you that I'm never going to do drugs. And I was like, wow, you know, it was really
[11:40]mindblowing to me that there are kids who are not doing drugs to party because it's fun,
[11:46]but because they literally are trying to, like you said, self medicate. And this changed my
[11:51]approach to how I talk about drugs with her. And of course, I brought in, you know, it's like
[11:56]hydras and professionals to help me deal with this. Is you know that she was having those types
[12:00]of thoughts before this conversation? I knew she had OCD, but I was, there's a lot of very good
[12:06]therapy for OCD, cognitive behavioral therapy and then going further, there's dialectical behavior
[12:12]therapy. And this does help. I didn't realize that just like we have the impulse to go for
[12:18]the glass of wine after a stressful day. Of course, these kids have the same impulse. So the conversation
[12:24]I think sometimes has to change in the way we talk about drugs and smoking. And if there's a real
[12:31]problem that they're trying to fix, like let's try to help them with, you know, in a controlled way.
[12:37]That said, I'm really upset about this whole jouling thing. Okay, these joules are marketed to these
[12:44]kids. It's very hard to detect. Like when we were growing up and someone smoking pot in the bathroom,
[12:50]like the parents knew, like it is, these things look like you'd be asked hard drives.
[12:56]You can't smell anything. And I'm hearing from psychiatrists, this is a huge problem. It's epidemic
[13:02]and the amount of nicotine that's being absorbed through the joule is so different than just smoking
[13:08]cigarettes. There's not even a protocol to how to get them off nicotine, like the way adults use
[13:14]the patch or whatever. Huge problem. So I think for parents, if you want to talk to your kids about
[13:19]drugs, also talk about why they're interested in it. Because it's not just always peer pressure
[13:25]and it's not always just a party. So that's my condensed feeling on this. But I did explore this
[13:30]in the book because I think it's very prevalent right now. Kids are more anxious than ever.
[13:35]I'm hearing that. That's a statistical fact. And this jouling is, it's insidious.
[13:41]This is a really stupid question. Jouling and vaping are not the same thing, right? Those are two
[13:45]different things. And I am still like, no, vaping is, the joule is the device, but vaping is any
[13:54]mechanism for smoking tobacco or pot through like pens. Basically it's anything that's not
[14:01]the traditional joint cigarette or bone. Okay. Yeah. But they're both bad. I feel like they're
[14:07]all bads to stop this. But I didn't know which part was the worst part. I'm understanding the jouling
[14:14]is the worst because the way a lot of people jouled tobacco, not just pot and the amount of tobacco
[14:20]that they're. And look, I'm not a doctor, but this is, I know, and I'm sorry. No, no, no. But this is like,
[14:25]you know, I feel like I'm a relatively educated person who reads the newspaper and I'm still
[14:29]confused. So I'm hoping maybe somebody else is confused and this is helping them. It is confusing.
[14:34]And the joule, the biggest problem with jouling is the tobacco levels are very, very high.
[14:39]And it's even more, you know, it's not like when we work kids and we smoke maybe a cigarette
[14:44]to experiment. You know, like these kids are getting addicted quickly and in a way that's very hard
[14:49]to get them off. Wow. Well, I'm glad you tackled it in a, in a fictitious way, even just to raise
[14:54]the conversation. Yeah. And you also wrote a lot about divorce in this book. Yes. Penny's dad
[14:59]re-enters the picture, sort of an opportunistic way not to give anything away. But at one point,
[15:05]Emma reads a letter from a lawyer and says, she must have let out a scream or a cry because Kyle
[15:11]came running from the other room asking what was wrong. Shaking, she handed him the first page,
[15:15]Emma started sobbing. And you follow this with the scene in the lawyer's office,
[15:19]where you write, Emma glanced at Mark, who is her ex-husband. His expression was wounded
[15:23]as if she were the one doing this to him. How unbelievable that she had once loved this man.
[15:27]He had held her hand while she gave birth. And now he was trying to destroy her life
[15:32]because that's what it would do if she lost Penny. How had she gotten into this position?
[15:36]How have things gone so terribly off course? Yeah. Talk to me about this.
[15:40]Oh, divorce. It's like, it's prevalent and oftentimes it's necessary. Like, you know,
[15:45]you go into marriage with the best of intentions. And sometimes it just doesn't work out.
[15:51]You know, I think the tildesto us part is a very, very high expectation. And it is astonishing
[15:58]to me to see how you can go from, I love this person enough to try to spend my life with them.
[16:08]To now, I'm going to do the most hurtful things to them just because it didn't work out.
[16:15]And, you know, I went through a divorce and fortunately it did not get that acromonious.
[16:22]But even the best of divorce is it's like you're hurting the person you once loved and it never,
[16:29]it's never good. Like, I don't buy this haul. Oh, we're like consciously uncoupling or
[16:35]never. Someone's hurting in that process. The question is, can you hold on to some shred of look?
[16:43]We once cared about each other. How far are you going to go? The problem is that the stakes are
[16:50]so high when you're dealing with kids because you're both equally as invested. And I don't know
[16:55]what the answer is. But I think the saddest thing about divorce is that you go from, I love you
[17:03]too. I hate you. And one of my favorite movies, although it's unrealistic and it's just a movie,
[17:11]I love that Nancy Meyer's movie. It's complicated when Neryl Streep and Alec Baldwin had
[17:17]been married. And then they come back and have an affair, which obviously is not realistic or
[17:24]I wouldn't recommend that. But what I loved about that movie is at least had some recognition
[17:28]that, you know what? There's a time when we'd fun together. And we either have these kids
[17:33]and let's just raise a glass to that, you know. And I wish that could happen more often
[17:39]because the bottom line is there's some kernel of good in every couple who came together to have
[17:44]children. It's true. I'm loving all your answers. I'm letting them all sink in. And so on your
[17:50]website, not to keep jumping around, but on your website, you listed this whole history of your
[17:54]love of books, which was great. And I felt like so many of the authors that you loved along the way.
[18:00]Like I was a huge student at the grant. So those were my first books that were long. Like adult
[18:05]fiction, basically, books that my mom gave me. And I was like, your mom gave them to you?
[18:09]Yes. Yeah. That's a whole conversation. Wow. Like Princess Daisy. I was like, these are like,
[18:16]I mean, those were, that was like porn basically. I was like, all right, this is how I'm
[18:21]going to learn about all the stuff. I was like 14 or something. She's my new hero.
[18:26]Oh, I think she probably hadn't read that. I don't know. I don't know. But when you were talking
[18:31]about all the books and how they've sort of, you know, course through your life along different
[18:35]times and everything, you wrote that after your second daughter was born in 2004,
[18:40]as life became busier and more complicated, you said the main criteria for the books that you
[18:44]chose was escapism. Yes. Tax me about that. You know, I'm hoping there are a lot of moms listening.
[18:50]Well, I remember exactly the book that someone gave me. It was in 2004 and my neighbor,
[18:56]who's a publicist gave me the first Emily Giffin book, something borrowed. And it was like,
[19:02]you know, I was up every night and another night nursing. And I thought, I was going to be a long
[19:07]time before I can like read or do anything. But the book was there. So when I couldn't fall back to
[19:12]sleep, I just started reading. And I was able to feel exactly the way I always felt with books.
[19:18]Like I fell into it. I loved it. It wasn't work. It was like fun. And every night, instead of dreading,
[19:26]being up at two, four, six, I look forward to like at least getting a little reading in two.
[19:32]So I write against what you call betries. You know, their beach books are set in the summer,
[19:36]they're set in beach towns. But when I was growing up, my beach books, like my guilty pleasure books,
[19:42]were the Judith crayons, those epic sagas of women finding their way in the world. And the early
[19:51]Judith crayons books were in the 70s. So they were super, super explicit sexually. But they were
[19:58]also just trying to, it was.
[20:00]all part of the liberation of that time.
[20:03]So those are the early books I fell in love with,
[20:06]which were a scapist, fun, wish fulfillment.
[20:10]Then I went through my whole super literary phase
[20:12]in college as an English major and then early in New York,
[20:15]working with like super literary authors.
[20:18]And then I found my way back to like my true love,
[20:21]which is just commercial fun, scapest rums.
[20:25]And it did start with being a new mother
[20:28]and not having the energy for books that made me work too hard.
[20:32]And I also didn't want books that were depressing.
[20:34]And I felt the same way about movies.
[20:35]Like I lost my interest in like I don't need to cry.
[20:40]Like I don't need to be depressed.
[20:42]Like let's try to keep things positive.
[20:45]Like I lost my taste for books that devastated me.
[20:50]Because I think you become more sensitive.
[20:51]Like you become exquisitely tuned to life
[20:55]in all its dimensions when you become a mother.
[20:58]And when I came to books from then on,
[21:00]I wanted books that fed positive.
[21:02]I feel like sometimes people get wrapped up in
[21:05]feeling like they should read certain books, right?
[21:08]Like maybe their books that don't even really appeal to them,
[21:12]but everybody else says are amazing.
[21:15]But I feel like it feels just would read what really,
[21:18]what they really want to read.
[21:19]Yes.
[21:20]Just as long as they're reading, they'll get something out of it.
[21:24]Like don't wait to like get through a masterpiece
[21:26]when you have like two minutes to read at night.
[21:29]No, just read or maybe if that's your thing.
[21:32]If you love poetry, you love literary fiction,
[21:35]then like give yourself that gift every day.
[21:37]But don't force yourself into a category
[21:40]or feel guilty about anything you want to read, right?
[21:42]Absolutely.
[21:44]There was a book that came out like two years ago
[21:46]and everyone's like you have to read it to masterpiece
[21:48]and oh my God, it's devastating.
[21:51]And I'm like, you know what?
[21:52]I don't want to be devastated.
[21:53]I'm not reading this book.
[21:54]Like I'm sure it's a masterpiece.
[21:56]But it's not like that's not, yeah, exactly.
[21:59]If you want to go back and read it,
[22:00]you just word and read it as word.
[22:02]If you want to read, you know,
[22:03]if you want to go back and read the sweet valley high books
[22:06]because you still have some in your collection
[22:08]and that's what makes you happy.
[22:09]Do that.
[22:10]I mean, I feel like books are like the biggest gift
[22:14]and we don't have to answer to anyone totally.
[22:16]Yeah.
[22:17]I agree.
[22:18]So one of the, one of the last lines of your book
[22:21]not to give anything away again,
[22:23]you right, there had been plenty of challenging moments
[22:25]in her 14 years of motherhood,
[22:27]but it didn't get any harder than letting go.
[22:30]And I literally like stopped and was like,
[22:31]I think I'm going to cry reading this
[22:33]because, you know, parents at any age,
[22:35]you know it's coming, right?
[22:36]It's sort of like, yes.
[22:37]Death in a way, right?
[22:38]Like you know it's coming.
[22:39]It's coming.
[22:40]You can prepare for it,
[22:41]but can you prepare for it not really?
[22:43]I mean, it just, it is what it is.
[22:45]It's like when someone's sick, like the mental,
[22:48]our mental abilities to cope with some things
[22:51]I feel like are limited.
[22:52]Going to kid going to college is obviously not as big.
[22:55]A loss, but it's a loss and then the less.
[22:57]It's like a loss of your stage of life.
[22:59]Yes.
[22:59]And one that I feel like with most motherhood-ish type stuff,
[23:04]there isn't necessarily like a proper transition,
[23:08]preparation, right?
[23:10]The transition from not being a mom to a mom.
[23:13]There's so much written out there,
[23:14]but that's like a whole, you know, the,
[23:16]I don't know.
[23:17]I feel like there's some key stages
[23:18]in that being one of them where, well anyway,
[23:20]I'm sorry, I'm rambling.
[23:21]I had like no sleep last night.
[23:23]Talk to me about that, please.
[23:24]David, you take it away.
[23:25]Well, first of all, you did touch on something true,
[23:27]which is we don't have enough rights of passage
[23:30]in our culture or in a more things like like there's no,
[23:33]you know, we have ceremonies, we have birthdays,
[23:35]we have like barmbot mitzvahs,
[23:37]but like we don't have a ceremony to mark the huge right
[23:40]of passage, which is your child leaving the nest.
[23:42]In terms of preparing for that,
[23:44]I have strong thoughts on this as well.
[23:46]Okay, excellent.
[23:47]The best way to prepare for that is to,
[23:51]like first of all, I love the name of your podcast.
[23:53]My mom's don't have time to read books.
[23:55]Make time to do what is right for you.
[23:57]Like you can't do everything for your kids
[24:00]and not continue to develop who you are along the way,
[24:04]or you are gonna be devastated when your child leaves,
[24:06]and you're not doing them a service.
[24:09]The best thing you can do for your child
[24:12]is to also make time to read,
[24:14]make time to have your hobbies, make time for your work.
[24:17]I remember when I was trying to decide
[24:19]whether or not I wanted to breastfeed
[24:20]and I went to my pediatrician, I was like,
[24:22]I don't know if I want to, and she said,
[24:24]look, happy mom makes for happy baby.
[24:28]Okay, that's the only thing you have to really keep in mind.
[24:30]And I think this goes for grown mothers.
[24:33]If your life is fall, your kids are gonna benefit
[24:36]because you're happy and you're fine.
[24:38]And they don't feel like, oh my gosh,
[24:39]I'm leaving my mom, I feel guilty.
[24:41]It's not their job to continue to validate
[24:45]our role as mother, right?
[24:46]Like they're leaving, have their lives.
[24:47]We need to have our own foundation.
[24:51]And even though it feels selfish
[24:53]when they're little, taking the time
[24:56]to go to our book club or go to work
[24:59]or take that knitting class.
[25:01]Like that is not selfish because that is gonna be,
[25:04]your child's gonna be happy when she's 18,
[25:06]that she knows mom is gonna miss her
[25:08]but she's also gonna be excited to have that extra time
[25:10]to continue doing what she loves to do.
[25:13]So I think the best way to prepare
[25:15]for your kid leaving, growing up,
[25:18]is to make sure you are whole as a person.
[25:21]Because I think the worst thing for a child
[25:23]is to feel to my job, to make mom's life complete.
[25:27]And she does everything for me and now I'm leaving.
[25:30]And it's like, you know, that's not,
[25:32]it's not good for them.
[25:34]I think divorced parents get this a little earlier.
[25:37]Right, I feel like when I don't have custody of the kids,
[25:40]I've learned over the last whatever four years
[25:43]how to make my own life full again.
[25:46]Because at the beginning, I'm not that it's not sad.
[25:48]I always miss them like crazy.
[25:50]But at the beginning it was just so painful and devastating.
[25:53]I didn't know what to do with myself.
[25:54]Yes.
[25:55]In part, this podcast and like reading all these books
[25:58]has really helped.
[25:59]And now my kids are like, well,
[26:01]how many podcasts are you doing when we're not with you?
[26:03]And like, which meetings do you have?
[26:05]And they're into it.
[26:06]You know?
[26:07]So they know.
[26:08]I'm not gonna like sit around crying.
[26:10]Even if some parts of the weekend I do cry
[26:13]or I do feel really sad,
[26:14]like it's not their responsibility.
[26:16]Like I can't put this on them.
[26:17]That's right.
[26:18]So anyway, I'll just say because other divorced moms
[26:23]that they know that you get these glimpses of like, okay,
[26:26]like the rain that's falling on the car in the storm
[26:30]is gonna, you know, when you go under like an underpass
[26:31]and it stops you get those moments of breathing room
[26:35]to, as like a preview of your moms
[26:37]who don't have that necessarily are taken off guard,
[26:40]I think a little more at the end.
[26:41]Absolutely.
[26:42]At the end, obviously, parenting doesn't end.
[26:44]Right, no, at one of the, the upsides to being divorced
[26:48]is you do get practice in having time to yourself
[26:52]and having to feel like constructively
[26:53]and how not to put, there's always a saying,
[26:57]oh, I missed you this weekend,
[26:59]but you don't wanna make the child feel bad.
[27:01]Like, oh, mom misses me and I miss her
[27:03]and this is a mess, like again.
[27:04]Like, they need to feel you're okay.
[27:06]Yes.
[27:07]And then they'll feel like, exactly.
[27:09]Kids are so sensitive.
[27:10]I mean, I feel like sometimes they can read my mind.
[27:12]Even when I act like things are fine,
[27:14]but I'm stressed inside.
[27:15]You feel like this too.
[27:16]You feel like they have this like,
[27:18]they can like strip everything away and see inside like,
[27:21]no matter how much I hide it.
[27:22]So you actually can't fake it necessarily.
[27:25]You have to be okay.
[27:26]Yes.
[27:27]And then not totally.
[27:28]I mean, obviously, you know,
[27:30]I mean, I think you don't have to always pretend you're okay
[27:32]for your kids, but I think the important thing is
[27:34]the child never feels it's their job to fix
[27:36]or to make you happy.
[27:37]That's a better way to say it.
[27:39]And if you're not okay to be like,
[27:40]I'm having a really rough day,
[27:42]like cause kids don't know that you have rough days too.
[27:44]Absolutely.
[27:45]I'm really worried.
[27:46]I have a lot of work.
[27:47]I have this or, you know, I'm worried about this,
[27:48]you know, whatever.
[27:50]That's, it's okay.
[27:51]That's better than when you pretend
[27:53]and then everything just feels off.
[27:55]Right, exactly.
[27:56]It's like if you're sick,
[27:57]you need to, I think I believe in being honest
[27:59]and saying, look, I'm sick, but I'm taking care of myself
[28:01]and it's gonna be, you know, hopefully gonna be fine.
[28:04]But again, it's just, I think the way you convey
[28:07]your struggles in that they're being dealt with.
[28:10]And it is never the child's job to help you deal.
[28:15]I mean, hopefully they grow up as empathetic people.
[28:18]But, you know, my mother, you know, she was just,
[28:22]when I grew up and left, it was almost like a,
[28:24]how dare you.
[28:26]It was like how, after everything I've done for you,
[28:28]how dare you go have your own life.
[28:30]And I think that's the flip side to that.
[28:33]Like, you know, it's like, well, I didn't,
[28:35]that's not really, you know, right.
[28:37]It's not, now my job to go and raise you.
[28:40]You know, so I just think be a human being, be honest,
[28:43]but make the child understand.
[28:46]It's not their job to fix your problems.
[28:49]Yeah, this has become like a parent coaching session
[28:52]that we're having here.
[28:53]Like, I love it.
[28:54]No, I love talking to moms with kids,
[28:56]a little bit older than my kids.
[28:57]I feel like it always, that's how I get through life, right?
[28:59]It's so complicated.
[29:01]And, you know, I'll tell you,
[29:02]because my youngest daughter is so complicated.
[29:05]I've had so much, I've been fortunate to have great therapists
[29:09]and I've learned so much, like just by talking to therapists
[29:14]and learning things like, you know,
[29:15]how to fix everything.
[29:16]And, you know, I mean, there's no handbook
[29:21]and it's never easy, but being harder on yourself
[29:25]is never the solution.
[29:27]Like, I think that's what moms need to know.
[29:30]Like, being harder on yourself
[29:32]or making yourself miserable is probably not the answer.
[29:35]Yeah, good call.
[29:37]Yeah.
[29:38]So back to writing for a second.
[29:39]What's coming next?
[29:40]You've been like cranking out these books
[29:42]on a year, where are you going next summer?
[29:44]Yeah, so I've been going to a different beach town every summer
[29:49]and I did Provenstown, the Jersey Shore, Sag Harbor.
[29:55]And next year I'm going back to Provenstown
[29:57]because I fell in love with this place.
[30:00]is so madly and I was researching a book
[30:03]and ended up making lifelong friends.
[30:05]So I'm going back to Provincetown,
[30:07]which for anyone who doesn't know
[30:08]is that the very tip of Cape Cod
[30:11]and next summer will be the 400th anniversary of the town.
[30:14]So there's that and I also do love the Hamptons
[30:19]and I'm actually gonna go to the North Fork
[30:21]for my 2021 book to explore wine country a little bit.
[30:27]Love that.
[30:28]And next two locations on the, on the docket.
[30:32]So cool.
[30:33]Yeah.
[30:34]How great to structure your writing life
[30:35]around fun vacation places.
[30:38]Yeah, I have to say it's tough work,
[30:40]but someone's gotta do it.
[30:41]Yeah.
[30:42]Well, I'm really glad you've done it
[30:44]and thank you for all the,
[30:45]the true like entertainment and education
[30:48]that you provide to readers
[30:49]and it's been great getting to know you
[30:50]and reading your book.
[30:51]You too, Zibi.
[30:52]And thank you so much for giving moms and writers
[30:54]and readers a place to get together.
[30:56]We need, we need it in so many ways
[30:58]as we discuss today.
[30:59]So thank you, seriously.
[31:01]Of course.
[31:02]No, my pleasure.
[31:02]Jamie.
[31:03]Today's episode was sponsored by cereal box.
[31:05]S-E-R-I-A-L-B-O-X dot com cereal box.com
[31:09]delivering addictive book content
[31:11]and shortlisten or read installments.
[31:13]Thanks to Ryan and Steve at Texture Sound
[31:15]for the audio editing and mixing.
[31:17]Thanks for listening to momstone.
[31:18]Have time to read books.