Helen Ellis, SOUTHERN LADY CODE
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[0:33]I'm here today with Helen Ellis.
[0:35]Helen is a novelist, essayist, and professional poker player.
[0:39]Can't wait to hear about that.
[0:40]Her debut novel, Eating the Cheshire Cat, came out in 2001.
[0:44]Her most recent release was a collection of stories called American Housewife, which was
[0:47]actually spurred by a Twitter post that went viral.
[0:50]Her upcoming essay collection, Southern Lady Code, launches in April 2019.
[0:54]Helen is the host of podcasts Southern Lady Code, a champion of the literary magazine One
[0:58]Story.
[0:59]Helen received her MFA from NYU, raised in Alabama.
[1:02]She lives with her husband in New York City, right near me.
[1:05]So welcome, Helen.
[1:06]Thanks so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to read books.
[1:09]My pleasure.
[1:10]I am intimidated by your microphone.
[1:13]I know.
[1:14]It's larger than what I'm used to.
[1:15]I mean, you know.
[1:16]There's girth.
[1:17]Amazon, so.
[1:18]I could go on and on about the lack of events.
[1:21]So I want to start if you don't mind.
[1:23]I know you have Southern Lady Code coming out, you have this new podcast.
[1:26]There's like so much to talk about.
[1:28]But I wanted to hear from the beginning, you came to New York when you were 22 with, you
[1:32]know, hopes of being a writer and your career has sort of gone in waves.
[1:36]And it's so interesting.
[1:38]And I just wanted to hear a little bit about the beginning when you landed.
[1:41]And your career has gone in waves in Southern Lady Code for it.
[1:44]You had 15 years of complete failure.
[1:46]That is not what happened.
[1:48]Well, it is what happened.
[1:50]Take a break.
[1:51]You just know.
[1:52]I failed.
[1:53]You did not.
[1:54]No, it's fine.
[1:55]It really is fine.
[1:56]I have no problem with the word.
[1:58]I'm not a best, you know, achievement ribbon type of lady, you know, you have to fail.
[2:04]And when you fail and you fail and you fail, when you do have success, you know, at 45
[2:11]when American Housewife came out.
[2:13]And then again with Southern Lady Code at 48, it is all the more delicious.
[2:20]So I moved here at 22 of my 22nd birthday.
[2:24]I didn't know a soul.
[2:25]I had $2,000 from working at a summer camp through a chain of Alabama mama, so I met
[2:31]another woman's Stephanie at the clock at Grand Central Station.
[2:35]You're going to meet her there at noon.
[2:36]You're going to find an apartment.
[2:38]And we did.
[2:40]And then six months later, her parents came and brought her back to Alabama and she decided
[2:44]to devote her life to Christ.
[2:46]Oh, your friend, yes, my friend, my friend.
[2:51]She came to be a model and is even more cutthroat than the writing world, I'm sure.
[2:57]And then I worked as a temp.
[3:00]I worked in retail, you know, I just paid the rent and slept on an egg mattress, you know,
[3:04]on 74th in New York and decided I wanted to go to grad school.
[3:10]Maybe that would make me right outside of my diaries.
[3:13]I got rejected by every single grad school I applied to.
[3:17]I get in off the wait list at NYU.
[3:21]And when I quit that job at 24, I was working as a secretary at a financial journal.
[3:28]I quit the job because I got into graduate school.
[3:32]My soon-to-be husband, and that means six years later, when he was a journalist walked
[3:37]into the office and I had the biggest smile in my face because I just quit.
[3:42]And God bless him.
[3:43]He thought that smile was for him.
[3:45]He thought that would have to ask me out in 24 years later, here we are.
[3:50]And I went to grad school where I met Danny Shapiro, who I know you are very close to,
[3:55]and in that class I met my writing workshop of 24 years, which is my other marriage.
[4:00]Wow.
[4:01]Which is the authors and the polytano and hand-attentee.
[4:05]And we've been together ever since.
[4:07]That's amazing.
[4:08]And so the first book was eating the Cheshire cat.
[4:11]It came out in 1999.
[4:14]Went very much according to plan.
[4:16]I wrote a book while I was temping the book sold for six figures.
[4:20]I went on a 16-city tour.
[4:22]It did.
[4:23]Great.
[4:24]And then I wrote another book, and nobody would publish it.
[4:27]And then I wrote another book, and nobody would publish it.
[4:30]And then I wrote a third book, and nobody would publish that.
[4:33]And then I quit writing for like three years.
[4:36]I know by the cares.
[4:37]I mean, all that happens is she put on 10 pounds.
[4:40]Still, I had my writing workshop who never told me I was a writer, who still let me read
[4:48]their work and follow their success and sit on their front rows and hold their purse.
[4:52]And then I started secretly writing through Twitter.
[4:56]Because for a long, long time, if you met me at a party, what do you do?
[5:01]I was very honest.
[5:02]I said, I'm a housewife, because I'd stopped my job at one point to try to write full
[5:06]time.
[5:07]And again, just because you do things in a particular way or the right way, it doesn't
[5:11]mean you'll be successful.
[5:13]And so I would say I'm a housewife.
[5:14]And if there was another question, the question was, what do you do all day?
[5:20]And I started this Twitter account, unbeknownst to my writing workshop, unbeknownst to
[5:24]my husband, called what I do all day.
[5:28]And after I got 100 followers, I told him.
[5:30]I said to my husband, I said something to tell you, and all color just drained from his face.
[5:34]What is it?
[5:35]I said, I'm a secret Twitter account.
[5:36]You don't ever break news to me in this way again.
[5:40]And same with Anna Hannah.
[5:42]And that is how I started writing again, because Twitter is the best editor.
[5:46]And I still abide by the practice that it's not retweeted, it's deleted.
[5:52]And I started from the Twitter account, I realized what I was tweeting about, I was tweeting
[5:56]about what I was doing all day, hosting parties, book clubs, solitude, domestic drama,
[6:04]and stories built out of that.
[6:06]And I started to write short stories, submit them like I used to do back in the day of
[6:10]graduate school to university presses, where you don't get paid a thing.
[6:15]But lovely 22-year-olds pull you out of the slush and publish you in its fantastic.
[6:21]And then at one point I had, you know, I have friend and agent says, how many of these do
[6:26]you have?
[6:27]And I said I have, I think at the time I had 12, well let's see if we can get them published
[6:33]and I just fell ass backwards into a book deal.
[6:38]And that's that.
[6:39]That's how you put, that's, I mean, that's like the perfect, doesn't everyone say like
[6:43]write what you know?
[6:44]Yeah.
[6:45]You have to write what you know.
[6:46]Yes.
[6:47]Yes.
[6:48]What's true?
[6:49]That's true.
[6:50]I don't know about murdering my dormant, but I thought about it.
[6:51]Well, I shouldn't say that.
[6:52]I know.
[6:53]I don't know.
[6:54]I don't know.
[6:55]Okay.
[6:56]In this instance, you know.
[6:59]And then what about...
[7:00]I could just come a lot earlier now.
[7:03]I meant the Twitter part, but what about Southern Lady Good?
[7:07]So you, so American Housewives can't come out then go for that.
[7:11]And just amazing, amazing how that went down and that opened up other doors for me because
[7:18]magazine editors reached out to me and said, would you write about your trip's playing
[7:22]poker with your father in the Lexi?
[7:24]Would you write about how to be the best guest at a party?
[7:29]And so this is nonfiction.
[7:30]And I just lied and said, yes, I'll do it.
[7:34]Yes, I can do it.
[7:35]And so I started writing these nonfiction pieces and you know what, Zippy, it is much easier
[7:41]to tell the truth.
[7:43]It's much, much easier for me.
[7:46]And I wrote this piece that was published in Modern Love called making a marriage magically
[7:50]tidy about how I became a recovering slob to save my marriage.
[7:58]And double day said, would you write a whole book of these?
[8:02]And again, I just bullshit it my way into it.
[8:05]Yes, of course I can do it.
[8:07]Yes.
[8:08]And nine months later, it was done.
[8:10]Nine months, that's fast.
[8:11]That was the fastest that I've ever written anything, but again, I didn't have to make
[8:14]anything up.
[8:15]Yeah.
[8:16]And I've been around a little while.
[8:18]I had, you know, I was 48 years behind me and I'm not really embarrassed by anything.
[8:22]So yeah, I feel like personal essays, it's just like you said, yes, then I have.
[8:28]Not to minimize.
[8:29]I mean, your essays are amazing.
[8:31]And they all work together in a great way.
[8:33]I was joking when you first got here when our coats are so similar because you have this
[8:37]story.
[8:38]I've got to take yours.
[8:39]Mine has a peppermint and a mess for a card in mind, but I thought yours does too.
[8:43]That might has nothing.
[8:44]I like, if you was falling out of blocks, my wall three times out of the same jacket.
[8:47]It's so slippery.
[8:48]Anyway, it's story.
[8:49]It was called the other woman's burberry coat about how you picked up the wrong coat as
[8:53]a coat check.
[8:54]And the one you got was actually a little nicer than yours yet, like all this debate, what
[8:57]to do about it.
[8:58]So you decide to keep the coat in, right?
[9:00]This is the way I handle a lot of problems, AKA rich people problems.
[9:03]I'm lucky to have the life that I have.
[9:04]So my motto is, oh, it's fine.
[9:06]I don't send food back and restaurant unless there's a finger in it.
[9:09]There's never a finger in it.
[9:11]So I don't send food back.
[9:12]It's fine.
[9:13]Talk to me about this philosophy, Bruce.
[9:15]It's true.
[9:16]I grew up at Alabama and I'm New York City 25 years later is still a very wealthy place
[9:26]to me.
[9:27]I feel very privileged to live here.
[9:32]And I've seen and experienced real problems.
[9:36]And when, for example, there's not a finger in my food or, oh, I take the wrong lady's
[9:41]burberry trench coat or tile is put up in the bathroom so that you can't keep the toilet
[9:47]lit up when you be standing up.
[9:49]I just don't make a fuss about it because really, I would rather just accept it than
[9:54]fight over it because really, who cares, who cares.
[9:57]I have my health.
[9:58]I have a happy marriage.
[10:00]I have two pairs of jeans.
[10:01]I mean, really?
[10:03]What do I have to pitch about?
[10:05]Nothing.
[10:06]This is like the ultimate don't sweat the small stuff.
[10:07]I doubt sweat the small stuff now.
[10:09]Uh-uh.
[10:10]I'm just going to regard to say different sayings
[10:12]to, in case they're thinking you're saying so good.
[10:14]It's a funny way.
[10:15]I'm just going to reduce it all down.
[10:17]Your best guest essay was also so funny.
[10:21]And you wrote about the best guest at a dinner party.
[10:23]You said the best guest eats what she has given.
[10:25]If an hors d'oeuvres on a toothpick,
[10:27]she does not sniff it suspiciously.
[10:28]Like, baby laxative cut cocaine.
[10:31]She sucks that toothpick clean.
[10:32]And then she asks for seconds.
[10:34]Let me tell you something.
[10:35]You are a lady who throws a party or two.
[10:38]And I met you because you came to a party at my house.
[10:42]And you are the best guest.
[10:43]I mean, I tell you.
[10:44]You're the first one.
[10:45]OK.
[10:46]So there are certain things that people
[10:48]will do at a party where they can ask me almost for anything,
[10:52]maybe a kidney because they were such a good guest.
[10:55]So at my, I had a fundraiser for one string magazine.
[11:00]And it was a game night.
[11:01]And when I say game night, I mean,
[11:04]let's see how quickly you can work this 100-piece unicorn puzzle
[11:07]in 20 minutes.
[11:08]Or let's play family feud in my bedroom.
[11:11]And all the while, let's have a day or back
[11:14]where you can get a lot of points if, you know, for example,
[11:18]you put on my bathrobe and strip to the apartment
[11:20]or you speak throughout charades without giving it away.
[11:25]Well, the most points that anybody could get,
[11:28]you did the dare.
[11:30]So the dare was change outfits with another person.
[11:35]And I look up.
[11:36]And there you are in my friend's gene stress.
[11:39]And she's in your friend.
[11:40]And she's in your dress.
[11:41]And, you know, what can I say?
[11:44]That is the best guest.
[11:45]That is what you call a good sport.
[11:47]You are a good sport, Madam.
[11:49]You know, I could not believe.
[11:50]I walked in there and everyone was doing all these crazy things.
[11:54]And I was like, I don't even know what tweeted it.
[11:56]I waited out.
[11:57]I was like, but, you know, the competitive instinct takes over.
[11:59]And I had brought my good friend, Lauren Castello.
[12:01]She's like, oh, we're going to win this.
[12:03]Oh, yes.
[12:03]If we're here, we're doing it.
[12:04]Oh, yes.
[12:05]You were on my right.
[12:06]You were on AM Homes' team.
[12:07]Yes.
[12:08]OK, so again, AM Homes was a professor of mine
[12:12]in graduate school.
[12:13]And SSA on Southern Lady called the podcast.
[12:16]She has a presence, which translates
[12:19]to she scares the shit out of me because she's so accomplished.
[12:22]And I've known the woman for 20-something years,
[12:24]but she'll always be my teacher.
[12:27]Like, I'm sure it will always be my teacher.
[12:29]And I will always feel 24 years old,
[12:32]which is, you know, I should think that's a good thing.
[12:34]And it's better than Botox.
[12:36]So again, there is AM Homes in my apartment
[12:40]with you, your friend is Lauren.
[12:42]Am I right?
[12:43]Yeah.
[12:43]I'm a little bit in love with you.
[12:45]She's amazing.
[12:46]And Jean, ongoing through my apartment.
[12:51]And AM Homes' arms are wrapped in toilet paper cake.
[12:55]Yes, that was true.
[12:56]That was true, too.
[12:57]Like, these ladies are going to take it down.
[12:59]The yellow team.
[13:00]Oh, my gosh.
[13:01]That was different.
[13:02]At one point, the very last challenge was
[13:05]you had to make the best Scrabble word,
[13:07]because I had hidden Scrabble tiles all over the house,
[13:10]which was also, you know, another game, like a Scrabble hunt.
[13:12]And after everybody had left,
[13:14]I had discovered people had gone through my panty drawer.
[13:17]Oh, no.
[13:18]People had emptied out the piggy banks.
[13:20]And that is just a kid.
[13:21]That's a good guest.
[13:22]That's a good sport.
[13:23]That's a good hostess.
[13:24]I mean, that was a killer part.
[13:25]I mean, that was like unlike any event I've ever been to.
[13:28]And no phones allowed.
[13:29]Oh, I know.
[13:30]I know.
[13:31]I had lost a lot of points.
[13:32]If I saw a phone, we did see phones and people lost.
[13:34]Oh, yes, that was tough.
[13:35]I was like, all these calls and kids are like, oh, no, no.
[13:39]Two hours, you're all mine.
[13:40]I know, that was a, but yes, I did.
[13:42]When I asked you a second ago, when you recorded,
[13:44]where you recorded your podcast,
[13:45]I thought you were going to say, you know, like, on 57 students,
[13:47]you're just like, no.
[13:48]Ellen, just started to talk about,
[13:49]because I was in her bathroom and I have now like been undressed
[13:52]in her bathroom.
[13:53]Just so random.
[13:54]Yes.
[13:55]Yes.
[13:56]But if you're going to Instagram a picture,
[13:57]that would be the picture to Instagram.
[13:59]I mentioned that.
[14:00]How did I change into ended up looking so much better
[14:02]than the one I showed up in?
[14:03]It's like both of the time.
[14:04]And I said, oh, what did you look like in my class.
[14:06]And I was like, oh my God, I've never learned that again.
[14:08]It looks terrible.
[14:10]Well, if you ask where I do the podcast.
[14:13]So again, I'm at this point in my life
[14:15]where for the most part, if I'm given an opportunity,
[14:18]I'll say yes for the most part.
[14:20]And people at Penguin and Double Day said, oh, you know,
[14:25]would you do a podcast, a mini podcast based on Southern
[14:28]Lady Code?
[14:29]And I have a huge podcast listener that said, yes, absolutely.
[14:33]So where do I record it?
[14:35]Oh, just go into your class that are bathroom.
[14:38]So for the first like eight episodes,
[14:40]I sat my ass on the floor of my bathroom,
[14:43]borrowing my cats pillow with the microphone,
[14:47]the toilet lit and just, I think we said,
[14:49]regurgent, you said regurgitated earlier.
[14:52]And I felt like I was regurgitating, you know, in college
[14:55]into the toilet.
[14:56]And since then, because Liberty Hardy, who does book riot
[15:01]showed a picture of where she does her podcast,
[15:03]which is at her desk, which is where we're sitting in your home.
[15:06]And I thought, well, this is much more ladylike.
[15:08]I'm gonna put it in my desk.
[15:10]And so now I do it at my desk.
[15:12]So then Lady Code says get off the bathroom floor.
[15:15]Exactly, just because, you know,
[15:18]I am very comfortable being barefoot, you know,
[15:20]in the kitchen, it doesn't mean I need to be barefoot.
[15:23]Mind you, my podcast, yeah.
[15:25]What are some of the podcasts not to put you on this foot?
[15:27]What do you like to listen to?
[15:29]So I'll tell you other little mini podcast
[15:31]because my podcast is six to eight minutes.
[15:34]And so I like that format from time to time.
[15:37]There's a great one called the way I heard it by micro
[15:40]where he just tells old Hollywood stories with a twist.
[15:44]There's a fabulous new podcast called 10 Things That Scare Me.
[15:48]Oh, yeah.
[15:49]Isn't that the best?
[15:49]I wanna be on it.
[15:50]I gotta send them a list.
[15:51]I tried.
[15:52]Did you really tell me?
[15:53]I went to this women's podcasting event.
[15:55]Oh, you should go.
[15:55]Yes.
[15:56]It comes back.
[15:57]It's called Work It, W-E-R-K.
[15:58]A lot of work in it.
[15:59]Yes.
[16:00]And they were about to launch that show.
[16:02]And as I said, if anybody wants to try,
[16:04]write down your list and come record it with the producers.
[16:07]Oh, gosh.
[16:08]So I was like the first one.
[16:09]I was like, let me try.
[16:09]Well, but did you say that I didn't?
[16:11]I should have thought about it.
[16:12]So what's the weirdest thing you're afraid of?
[16:13]It wasn't weird enough.
[16:14]It was like, I don't know, death or something like totally
[16:17]like you're dying.
[16:18]Yeah.
[16:18]It was like, you know, it's gonna be weird.
[16:20]I know it was not weird.
[16:21]I'm not weird enough.
[16:22]Yeah, yeah.
[16:23]My biggest fear right now is that my neck will eventually
[16:27]look like, you know, when you have a leak at the top of the ceiling
[16:30]and you have a massive water bubble hanging down a paint.
[16:33]I have one in the van that we go all the way to the kitchen.
[16:35]We can compare my neck.
[16:38]And I like this, another one called Cabinet of Curiosity's
[16:42]where the guy who does lore, it's his new podcast.
[16:45]But then I love a true prime podcast.
[16:47]I love a good interview show.
[16:48]I love a storytelling podcast.
[16:50]Risk is fantastic, which is kind of kinky or bizarre
[16:55]with Kevin Allison.
[16:56]And then my sister has a podcast.
[16:57]I know, she would love.
[16:58]It's called One Bad Mother.
[17:00]And it's her and Teresa Thorne, who is Jessie Thorne
[17:03]of Maximum Fun's Wife.
[17:05]And it's been going for, I would say, six or seven years.
[17:09]And they both have kids that it's just about, you know,
[17:12]raising your kids and it's very honest.
[17:15]Which means craft.
[17:17]You should check it out.
[17:20]I will for sure.
[17:21]Check it out.
[17:22]Tell me about poker.
[17:23]You're a professional poker player.
[17:25]I'm a respected amateur.
[17:27]We're a respected amateur.
[17:28]Okay, respected amateur.
[17:30]How did, and you were Colson Whitehead's coach?
[17:32]I was.
[17:33]Tell me this.
[17:34]Which again, I did.
[17:35]I think that I coached him, because he was going to go play
[17:39]the World Series and write about it for Grand Land.
[17:41]And I think that was 2011, 2012.
[17:45]And so he had no idea I was a writer.
[17:48]You know, I was just a 40-cent-the-year-old poker
[17:50]playing housewife.
[17:52]And not just, I was a 40-cent-year-old poker
[17:56]playing housewife.
[17:57]I mean, what else would you want to be, a lady of leisure?
[18:00]And I thought at the time, you know, when I read the, you know,
[18:04]his draft of it, I thought, if this is the way
[18:08]I go down in history, which was a pretty badass portrait
[18:12]of myself, I would be very happy with that.
[18:14]You know, it was like seeing, you know, a famous artist paint
[18:18]your portrait.
[18:19]And I didn't change a word of it.
[18:21]And I remember being at a one-story event.
[18:23]And I think it was 2012, where I was introduced to
[18:28]Nan Graham, who was my Scribner editor at,
[18:30]or the head of the Scribner when I published there in 1999,
[18:36]someone introduced me to her as Colson Whitehead's poker
[18:39]coach.
[18:40]And she did, thank God, remember me.
[18:41]But it had been over 10 years since I published.
[18:45]But that is what I was being introduced as.
[18:47]And that, the time was perfectly fine.
[18:50]But I will tell you that seeing myself portrayed in sort of
[18:53]a badass way may be more courageous.
[18:57]And I thought, you know, if I can walk into a room
[19:00]with thousands of men, and think I'll be the last one standing,
[19:04]I can write a little story.
[19:05]Oh, totally.
[19:06]And so I did.
[19:08]And I do thank him in American Housewife for my demeanment
[19:11]that I'm brave to be.
[19:13]Yeah, so I started playing poker when I was six,
[19:16]my father's a poker player, his father was a poker player.
[19:19]And I was the only downside of the,
[19:23]my return to a publishing life is that I don't play as much.
[19:26]I haven't played since November, so it'd be, I'm in complete
[19:28]withdrawal.
[19:29]I think you need to have a poker night.
[19:30]I think why do you give my demeanment to ourselves.
[19:33]So I give ladies glasses because women make up 4% of the poker
[19:38]field.
[19:39]And I give ladies lessons.
[19:41]I will come to your house.
[19:43]I will charge.
[19:45]And I will teach six to 10 of your friends how to walk into a casino
[19:49]and play, you know, hold them, stud, whatever you want to play.
[19:53]And I'll also teach 10 year old boys as long as their mothers
[19:55]are involved.
[19:56]Really?
[19:57]Yes, I do.
[19:57]I have an 11 year old boy.
[19:59]Perfect.
[20:00]And you know, again, it's like kids and women, you know,
[20:03]they need to know how to play.
[20:05]That's awesome.
[20:05]I will be figuring out when to have that event.
[20:08]So I'm already planning for June
[20:10]because June is the world series in Vegas.
[20:12]And my tour will be over by then.
[20:14]Wow.
[20:15]So I'll be off to Vegas for a week or two to play.
[20:18]Oh my gosh.
[20:19]I can't wait for it ever having.
[20:20]I can't wait for it ever having.
[20:23]So you mentioned earlier when we were just talking,
[20:25]like your philosophy on life,
[20:27]sort of nothing's too big a deal
[20:28]because of the stuff that's gone on before.
[20:31]Is there anything you'd be willing to share?
[20:32]Like, no, not so much.
[20:34]Okay, well, I mean, I can say this, you know,
[20:38]when I first started dating my husband,
[20:41]there was a lot of death in his family.
[20:43]There was the fast death of his 29-year-old brother
[20:47]to a brain aneurysm.
[20:48]And there was a very lengthy death of his grandmother
[20:51]to what happens when you get old.
[20:54]And they keep you alive.
[20:56]And so it was years of being the only caretakers
[21:00]in a very stressed, you know, sad, sad time.
[21:05]And both of us, it's just never been as hard as that.
[21:09]So yeah, I'm not gonna be upset over much of anything.
[21:13]You know, again, it's just never has been as hard as that.
[21:16]And I hope it won't be as hard as that
[21:18]because I am, you know, older and, you know,
[21:21]a little braver than I was in my 20s.
[21:24]You need to wear a shirt that's like hashtag braver.
[21:26]That is like, you are that is like, it's not so braver.
[21:30]I'm not so braver.
[21:31]I'm not a hot shot, you know, fire fighter in Montana.
[21:35]But I mean, I'm not so bad.
[21:38]I'm a bam, hello, and in New York.
[21:39]I mean, just get to do this, it's really, it's pretty awesome.
[21:44]So next for you, you have Southern Lady Code,
[21:46]you're gonna do the tour.
[21:47]Are you riding anymore or?
[21:49]I'm working in the podcast, which is, I'm riding,
[21:51]because it's like, I sort of compare it to what David Sedaris
[21:54]used to do on NPR or what you see.
[21:57]Jim Gaffigan do on CBS this morning, you know, like,
[21:59]oh, all of tumors are compared to fruit, you know?
[22:03]Just like little funny, poignant pieces that last
[22:06]three or four minutes.
[22:07]So it's again, non-fiction, and it's getting that muscle going.
[22:11]I like doing it and, you know, but I have no idea
[22:14]what I'm riding next to put in a book.
[22:17]Yeah, that's it.
[22:18]And that's true.
[22:19]I can't, I'm just not concerned at all.
[22:23]Just getting the content out there.
[22:24]Yeah.
[22:25]And do you have any advice to aspiring writers?
[22:28]I didn't know what you were gonna ask.
[22:30]I didn't know what you were gonna ask.
[22:30]Inspiring poker players?
[22:32]Yes, I have the advice for both.
[22:34]Southern Code Lady.
[22:35]I have advice to writers, my advice is two things.
[22:38]One is, find yourself one or two friends to reach a work.
[22:44]If they're writers, that's fantastic.
[22:46]If not, that's still okay.
[22:47]You know, I have, when I write something new,
[22:50]Ann and Hannah are the first to read it.
[22:51]My husband reads it.
[22:52]My sister reads it, and my friend Martin reads it.
[22:55]And that's that.
[22:56]Do they change it?
[22:57]Like do they do allow them to edit it?
[22:58]Well, Ann and Hannah and my husband
[23:00]has been his editor at CBS.
[23:02]So, which is, he's completely outside my market
[23:05]because I don't fool myself.
[23:07]I do not write for straight men.
[23:10]I write for women, and I write for gay men.
[23:13]So if I can keep him interested,
[23:15]then I've really set the bar.
[23:17]But both Ann and Hannah definitely give me critiques.
[23:20]And my friend Martin Wilson is a writer and he does.
[23:22]And my sister is just a rampant reader
[23:24]and stand up comedians.
[23:26]So it's again, it's a good mix.
[23:28]And my other advice is work the crossword puzzle every day
[23:31]and work it in pencil for heaven's sake.
[23:34]Work it in pencil to start
[23:36]because when you work in pencil,
[23:37]you're more willing to make a mistake.
[23:39]I mean, yes, there's the whole bit about vocabulary.
[23:42]You know, you increase your vocabulary.
[23:43]But for me, it's the daily process
[23:47]of getting my mind working and making a mistake.
[23:51]And soon as you know, you've made the right word choice,
[23:53]you put it in hand.
[23:55]So those are my two bits of advice.
[23:57]Amazing.
[23:58]Well, thank you so much for your name.
[24:01]I don't forget to gig all.
[24:03]Yeah, that's the best.
[24:04]You have the best left.
[24:05]Oh my goodness.
[24:06]It's the best left.
[24:07]Oh my goodness.
[24:08]Hey.
[24:10]Well, thank you.
[24:11]Thank you, thank you for coming in.
[24:12]Thank you for having me.
[24:13]It's a pleasure.
[24:13]Can't wait to hear more of your podcast.
[24:15]God, do a sec.
[24:17]Oh, take care.
[24:19]Today's episode was sponsored by cereal box.
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