Pamela Paul, New York Times Book Review Editor, MY LIFE WITH BOB
[0:00]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:12]My daughter and I are here for a special announcement, which is that Momstone Have Time to Read Books
[0:17]was just nominated for a Webby Award in the Arts and Culture category for podcasts. So please
[0:23]please vote by April 18th so that I can win the People's Choice component of this award.
[0:27]And now my daughter has a little something to say.
[0:29]Hi, I love my mom so much. She's been working so they hard for this podcast to be on into the
[0:36]and then I also want you to do that in love for her. So please vote for Zibi.
[0:43]All right, this is Momstone Have Time to Read Books. I love my mom so much. Please vote for
[0:48]Zibi Owens where the awards. The website is vote.webbyawards.com. Today's episode has been sponsored
[0:56]by cereal box. Cereal box delivers addictive book content, in short listen or read
[1:01]installments. Designed to fit into today's fast-paced mobile lifestyle. Switch between
[1:06]listening and reading with a single click, picking up right where you left off. Learn more at
[1:10]cerealbox.com. S-E-R-I-A-L-B-O-X.com. Hi, I'm thrilled to be interviewing Pamela Paul today. Pamela
[1:19]is the editor of the New York Times Book Review and oversees all book coverage at the times.
[1:23]She hosts the weekly podcast inside the New York Times Book Review. Pamela has written many
[1:27]books, including her fantastic memoir My Life With Bob. Flaud heroine keeps book of books plot ensues.
[1:33]She also wrote the starter marriage and the future of matrimony, parenting ink,
[1:36]how the billion dollar baby business has changed the way we raise our children,
[1:40]and horrified how pornography is damaging our lives, our relationships, and our families.
[1:44]She also edited by the book Writers on Literature and the Literary Life from the New York Times
[1:48]Book Review. Pamela wrote the storied column in the Sunday style section of the New York Times,
[1:53]and has had her work published in the Atlantic, Washington Post, The Economist,
[1:56]Vogue, and many more publications. Her next book, How to Raise a Reader, is Coming Out Soon.
[2:01]A graduate at Brown University. Pamela lives in the New York area with her husband and three
[2:05]children. Welcome, Pamela to Mom. Don't have time to read books. Thanks so much for having me.
[2:09]Thanks for taking the time. If you don't mind, I want to start with the op-edi wrote recently
[2:13]for The New York Times, called Let Children Get Board Again, because I've had it up on my bulletin board
[2:18]since you wrote it. I've had my mom send it to me. Anyway, it's like, I keep thinking about it,
[2:25]so let's talk about that for a sec if that's okay. Oh, sure. I mean, it's funny, there were a
[2:29]couple of imbedances for that piece. One was the fact that back to school nights in our schools.
[2:39]I kept hearing this language that I, you know, don't recall ever being used when I was a student,
[2:46]which was the, it's as if the teachers feel quite desperate to capture children's attention
[2:53]and to engage them and that they try to do this by constantly upping the ante. And I, to me,
[3:00]that's a kind of dangerous thing, right? Because you have kids who are sort of constantly being
[3:09]encouraged by teachers to become accustomed to a higher level of entertainment and diversion.
[3:19]And then at home, they're also encouraged. And it's not that either teachers or parents are
[3:25]necessarily to blame here. I think there are a lot of factors at work. But what happens is that they
[3:30]kind of mutually feed off each other, right? Because if children are constantly entertained and
[3:36]diverted in a home, then when they get to school, it's incredibly boring by comparison. And vice versa.
[3:43]So that was sort of one thing. The second thing was personal because I don't think this is just about
[3:47]kids. I think it's about us as adults as well. I had been contemplating like probably many people
[3:52]have contemplated starting to meditate. It's one of those like 25 year old goals that I've had and I
[3:58]still haven't acted on. And there had been a number of articles in the times of that meditating.
[4:05]And I just kept thinking, well, how am I going to squeeze this in? I don't have time to meditate.
[4:09]What would have to go when I cut out physical therapy, when I cut out exercise,
[4:12]when I cut out a wash to work, when I cut out something with my kids, would I go to work late?
[4:17]Like, I didn't know how to figure out how to have time to do that. And then I thought that's crazy
[4:23]first of all. But secondly, if I did have 20 minutes to spare every day and I did want it to be
[4:30]some kind of downtime, not if there's anything wrong with meditation, I still think I should
[4:34]but it's like the opposite of boredom, right? It's very intentional downtime. And I thought that's
[4:39]so typical of us as adults too, that we want to maximize every single moment of our day.
[4:48]And that even when I am walking to the train station, I think to myself, oh, you know,
[4:55]there's not a lot of foot traffic here. I could actually answer some emails while I'm walking
[4:59]or shouldn't I get headset and listen to podcasts while I'm walking? Or like, how could I use
[5:04]this time better? And so I think there's just a pervasive sense that if you have downtime, if you
[5:12]have quote unquote empty time, it's kind of on you to feel it. And I think we're teaching this
[5:17]to kids at an early age. And I think that we as adults have become kind of accustomed to it. And
[5:22]so that was the kind of genesis of that piece.
[5:25]And in the piece, you said that things really happen when you're bored. And you said it's when
[5:29]you're bored that story said it, right? It's like, that's when you can become most creative.
[5:33]And that's what we're missing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I think back when I think back to
[5:38]the jobs that I had as a teenager and I started working when I, you know, beyond babysitting, when I
[5:45]was 13, back when, you know, kids really worked after school. And I actually loved those
[5:52]the kinds of things that you might consider on the face of it to be incredibly boring.
[5:57]I was putting together sales sheets in the factory. I worked at a supermarket checking out
[6:03]items. I did lots of really menial kinds of jobs. And I, in fact, loved it because, you know,
[6:11]it was like a downtime and a forced break. It's like taking a shower is today, right? When you're
[6:16]taking a shower, we pretty much know what we're looking at. And we pretty much know what we have
[6:20]to do. So your mind is, you know, otherwise empty. And I don't know about you, but I have some of
[6:25]my best ideas in the shower. And it's because I'm forced to think about, you know, something other
[6:31]than, you know, shampooing my hair. And so I actually find myself kind of constantly dashing out
[6:38]of the shower to take a note of something. Because that's one of the few times where my brain just
[6:42]has that space to free-flute. I feel that way sometimes when I attend board meetings that are a little
[6:48]bit slow. And I use the no-pad to just like write down all these ideas and have even had other
[6:51]things. And I should be paying attention. But it's the same thing. Same concept.
[6:55]Yeah. I mean, my husband used to say, you know, when we would be at some incredibly boring,
[6:59]you know, meeting together or to school event or something, I'd be like, how are you doing?
[7:04]He said, I'm at SeaWorld, you know, which was his metaphor basically saying, like, I'm not,
[7:08]I'm not actually here. And, you know, fantasy land.
[7:13]Well, the article was really good reminder of the importance of that. So, thanks for that.
[7:18]And I loved your book. I know you've written many books, but you remember my life with Bob,
[7:22]like totally resonated with me. I think because I'm a huge book lever too, although I didn't have
[7:25]the foresight to record every book I've ever read the way you've done, which is amazing and incredible.
[7:30]And you mentioned how you were so shy as a child. And you said at one point, social skills were
[7:35]not your forte, although having met you now, I would disagree with that. But anyway,
[7:40]and you said, you know, reading was the one thing when you were young that you were good at.
[7:44]So I was just wondering, do you think that shy kids end up sort of drifting more towards reading and
[7:49]writing? Because I was a very shy kid as well. And that's sort of where I ended up. But I don't
[7:54]know if you thought there was a link there. I definitely think there's a link towards China,
[7:58]or introversion, and reading, because books and stories are filled with characters and characters
[8:05]can be a very good company. And also, you know, characters in these stories show us ways to
[8:13]negotiate and interact with the rest of the world, right? So if you're not quite sure how things
[8:19]operate, how to do things, then you can figure that out in a book. I mean, I also, I remember
[8:25]I was actually talking to one of my children about this. We were talking about, you know,
[8:29]really embarrassing stupid things that happen when you're little to stay with you
[8:33]for a very long time. And I remember one time I had just moved to a new town, and I was standing
[8:40]at resource. I was not at all sporty, and I didn't know anyone. And I was all by myself. And I
[8:45]remember being sort of isolated on the concrete, standing there, and someone dashing up to me,
[8:51]and saying to floods over and running away, and people laughing. And it wasn't until I read that
[8:57]particular insult in a book a few years later that I even knew what it meant, which is that
[9:03]my pants were too short because they were hand me down. And that was like a major fashion faux pas
[9:09]at the time. I was in grade school. I didn't realize it. But it's interesting that, you know,
[9:15]nobody was going to tell me that. And I'm sure that most of the other kids completely forgot about it,
[9:20]you know, within 10 minutes. But I didn't forget. And I didn't really understand it until I read it
[9:25]in a novel. I pretty much haven't forgotten any negative thing anyone's ever said.
[9:29]The past thing's the way. We found these things away. But, you know, in stories, that's where
[9:35]also you learn how to cope with it, because I think, you know, children's books writers, the successful
[9:40]ones, the good ones, and I think most publishers are also in the children's book worlds, really
[9:45]conscientious about this, that those characters reflect real people in our lives, even in fantasy
[9:52]stories. You know, you can have a dragon story where they're dragons, but those dragons are actually
[9:56]the kids. And those kids are actually having real child.
[10:00]like emotions, and so for kids, even who just need one step of remove from where they are,
[10:05]that helps them.
[10:06]And you see other kids, other introspective kids, other bookish kids, other shy kids
[10:11]in these stories, and in those stories, they're the heroes.
[10:15]I mean, I think one of the incredible things that Rick Lired and did, he's the author of
[10:19]the Percy Jackson books, is to make his hero dyslexic and to turn that into a kind
[10:25]negative signal for strengths and for greatness, because that took kids who were feeling
[10:31]self-conscious about their inability or their difficulty in reading and turned it into
[10:36]strengths.
[10:37]Yeah, you said something very similar in the book, you wrote, if something happened
[10:40]to one of the characters that had happened to you, it meant you weren't a freak.
[10:43]There was a precedent, and if you could find out what they did about it, you might find
[10:47]your own solution, or at least learn what not to do.
[10:49]So I feel like that's totally it, right, that books in a way always are like validation
[10:54]that we aren't so crazy ourselves, right, that other people feel the way we do either
[10:57]now or as kids, or that we're somehow not alone.
[11:00]Well, what's funny is when I started keeping my book of books, I really kind of kept
[11:05]that to myself.
[11:06]It wasn't something I ran around telling people about my dorky diary, but when I first
[11:11]wrote about it, which was in 2012, I was working at the New York Times Book Review, and
[11:16]we were launching this feature called by the book, which was sort of questionnaire
[11:20]interview with an author or other public figure about their reading life.
[11:24]I thought this makes sense to me that you can tell a lot about a person by what they read,
[11:29]but maybe it won't be quite obvious to our readers and so for that particular issue where
[11:35]we launched in David Stairus was the first subject, I wrote an essay about my book of
[11:40]books that I called Bob, and that essay I think was called My Life with Bob in the New York
[11:44]Times, and it ran on the back page, and after it ran, I just got this deluge of
[11:49]emails and also snail mail letters that had in the letters photocopies or photographs
[11:57]of people's own book of books, because it turned out I wasn't the only person.
[12:01]I wasn't the only freak out of there that kept this crazy diary of all the books that
[12:07]I had ever read, so even late in life, it was sort of validating to find out that my
[12:11]book of books actually isn't a completely freaky idea that something that other people
[12:17]had done because they too wanted to kind of keep track of their own life through the stories
[12:22]that they had read.
[12:23]I think I'm going to have my kids start keeping a book of books now.
[12:26]It's too late for me.
[12:27]Well, I guess I could start, but at least they would have the context, like that you
[12:29]have that they could look back, but yeah, it's interesting.
[12:32]One of the things that is happening in schools right now is a lot of schools are forcing
[12:37]kids to keep these book records, like these weekly book sheets, where you have to write
[12:43]down the book that you're reading and how much time you spent reading it, and it's usually
[12:46]on a loose piece of paper, and that turns reading into a tour.
[12:52]That is something that is not for you, it's for the school, and it's not kept in any kind
[12:57]of keepsake way, but it's just a sheet for the teachers to make sure that kids are reading
[13:02]in the home.
[13:03]So the intent is completely noble, especially in communities where kids might not be given
[13:09]regular access to books through their library or through their parents, and so I understand
[13:14]and I get it, but what would be so much more meaningful is for them to have a book of
[13:18]books because then it's for them and about maintaining their own kind of journal and their
[13:24]own personal record.
[13:26]And I think just twisting it slightly and just kind of turning that idea makes it much
[13:30]more powerful because it's not about proving to the teacher that you're reading, it's
[13:34]about keeping a personal memoir for yourself about who you are becoming through your own
[13:40]reading.
[13:41]That's a great idea.
[13:42]I love that.
[13:43]In your book, you talked about how you ended up sort of advocating for yourself and ending
[13:47]up with the job as the children's books editor of the New York Times, and I just love
[13:50]that story and then how that eventually became your job as the, you know, New York Times
[13:54]book review editor.
[13:55]Can you share that story with listeners?
[13:57]Sure.
[13:58]I mean, it's funny, I had been working from home, and assuming you have lots of parent
[14:03]listeners, they will understand the joys of working from home.
[14:07]I was in my pajamas all day.
[14:09]I had three young children who was able to nurse all of them.
[14:12]I was able to take a break and have my lunch with them.
[14:15]So even though I had full-time childcare and I was working full-time at a journalist,
[14:20]I had total flexibility and freedom, and I never intended to work in an office ever again.
[14:27]But what happened was that the previous editor of the book review was looking for someone
[14:31]to fill the spot of the children's book editor who had left predecessor to become at
[14:36]that point an agent, and it's a really hard job to fill because you need to have someone
[14:42]who obviously loves and cares about children's literature, but also someone who's a journalist.
[14:47]So you can't have someone who's like a librarian in that position, but you also can't
[14:51]have someone who's a journalist and doesn't care about kids' books at all.
[14:54]And so it was a hard job to fill and he was asking me for help, and there had only been
[14:58]four children's books editors in the history of the New York Times because it's a really
[15:05]great job.
[15:06]You know, people who got that job held onto it, but again, kind of a difficult position
[15:10]to fill.
[15:11]So I had been suggesting people for it and knowing that I was certainly in Sam Town and
[15:16]House, it was the editor, then also knew that I never, ever, ever, ever wanted to leave
[15:20]my house at least for work purposes.
[15:23]And so we were in Los Angeles where we go over a year to visit my husband's family,
[15:30]and we were driving around and there used to be this great children's bookstore slash
[15:35]illustration gallery called Every Picture Tells a Story, and every time it was go out there
[15:39]as in Santa Monica, I wanted to go.
[15:41]But the tiresome thing about it is that my kids was, of course, loved it too, and they
[15:45]wanted me to read them particular stories while I was there, and that was great, and
[15:50]I loved doing that.
[15:51]I love reading them by kids, but I also really wanted to put the books myself and the
[15:55]illustrations.
[15:56]So I was in the car kind of plotting with my husband like when can I possibly on this trip
[16:02]have time to go by myself?
[16:05]And now that my kids are a little bit older, it's hard to even recollect those days
[16:09]when you just negotiate and like an hour to yourself is a kind of, you know, it's a complicated
[16:16]maneuver to have to, to make when you don't have extensive, you know, we were on vacation,
[16:20]we didn't have, have childcare.
[16:22]And as I was saying that, I was thinking, oh, you wait a minute.
[16:25]You're saying you want to go to a children's bookstore without your kids so that you
[16:28]can look at the books like, obviously, you really care about children's books, like
[16:32]maybe you should be the children's books editor.
[16:36]And so I sent an email kind of casually saying, look, you know, if you could make this
[16:41]job part time, maybe I would consider taking it and within three weeks, I was working
[16:47]at the New York Times.
[16:48]I mean, that was literally over Christmas break in 2010, and my first day at the times
[16:54]was January 24th of 2011.
[16:57]So it was just that like very casual, ah, I wonder if, email, and I haven't regretted
[17:03]it for a moment, although there was certainly, you know, some trepidation before I started
[17:09]and even as I started thinking, like, what have I done?
[17:12]I have left, like I had the thing that so many working mothers want, which is, you know,
[17:21]I'm able to do what I love doing and be there for my kids.
[17:26]And I never have to get dressed or put on makeup.
[17:29]And I have given it up, you know, and it took me a while to acclimate even when I think
[17:34]back to that time.
[17:36]I remember looking at myself like one day and being like, what am I wearing?
[17:39]Because I was like still wearing maternity clothes and like sweat pants and like, you
[17:44]know, stringed, drawstringed, tied mom khakis to work, I had like completely, it took
[17:51]me a while for the professional person to catch up to where I actually was.
[17:56]And so now you've been there for eight years.
[17:58]So what is it, what is it like editing the book review?
[18:00]Like how do you feel having that sort of level of influence that you can sort of make
[18:04]or break an author's career and what is it like for you?
[18:07]Let's just tell me a little more about it.
[18:09]Well, it's funny.
[18:10]I don't really think about it that way.
[18:12]It is obviously a huge responsibility.
[18:13]And I think that it's helpful having been an author before coming into this position
[18:18]because it means that I am not cavalier when it comes to the impact that it has on
[18:23]writer's lives.
[18:25]But one interesting thing and it's really hard, right, when you care about books and
[18:29]you work within the world of books, whether you're an author or editor, whatever to remember
[18:33]this, but the New York Times's obligation isn't to the writers and the publishing industry
[18:41]and the aspiring writers, our audience, our readers of the New York Times.
[18:46]And so if a book is not that good and let's say it's coming, let's say it's coming
[18:51]from either a hugely hyped debut author, hugely hyped getting tons of like press and excitement
[18:57]around it and it's not that good or it's coming from someone who comes out with like
[19:01]a new book every year or two and they usually do a really great job, but this one's not
[19:06]good.
[19:07]So is it our obligation to make that person feel better or given the fact that we are
[19:12]serving readers of the New York Times who are making really hard choices about like how
[19:17]do I spend my time, what's worth my time and money to buy, what books should I read to
[19:23]give them an honest assessment of that work?
[19:26]And we're always going to veer towards the latter because that's who we are trying to serve.
[19:31]And also as journalists, you know, again, we're not in the promotional business, we are
[19:35]in the reporting business and it's unfortunate that so many news outlets, particularly
[19:42]newspapers and again, I don't blame them for this, it's a really tough environment.
[19:47]They've cut back on their cultural and in particular their books covered, they don't
[19:51]have the time to go through all of these books and to make those assessments and to
[19:56]have people who have been working in this field for.
[20:00]you know, 10, 20.
[20:01]We have editors who've been at the book review for 30 years
[20:03]and have a really strong sense
[20:05]of what makes a book worthwhile.
[20:08]Even if that book isn't to their taste.
[20:10]So, you know, and that's just not,
[20:13]I mean, that requires, first of all, massive staff and time
[20:17]to go through all those books.
[20:18]We're the only free-standing newspaper book review
[20:22]left in the country.
[20:23]And we are the only outlet left
[20:26]that other than the trade publications,
[20:28]they'd actually not just cherry picks like,
[20:30]oh, look, we're going to do this book
[20:32]and we're going to do not book and we're going to do this book.
[20:33]But we review the landscape.
[20:35]That's what a New York Times book review is.
[20:37]That's what a book review is.
[20:38]Every book that comes to our office gets a look.
[20:42]It might get a look for five seconds.
[20:43]We might know, oh, we don't cover this category.
[20:45]This isn't for us.
[20:46]But we look at all of those books
[20:48]and we go through them to find the ones
[20:51]that aren't getting the hype.
[20:52]The ones that are coming from a tiny new publisher.
[20:55]The ones that are from an author
[20:56]that no one has ever heard of,
[20:58]that are being translated from Serbian
[21:00]for the first time, even though the writer is a legend in Serbia.
[21:04]And we are going through all that to assess our readers.
[21:08]You know what?
[21:09]You should know about this book.
[21:10]So give me a visual.
[21:11]How does this work?
[21:12]You have like a room where a billion books come in.
[21:14]How does it all get sorted?
[21:16]Like, how do you assign, like, who reads what?
[21:19]How does it, how do you keep track?
[21:21]Well, it's a huge process.
[21:23]Everything gets logged into a database.
[21:24]We have people who open up the mail twice a day
[21:27]and because it comes in, droves.
[21:28]And so we do have a room that's dedicated to the incoming books
[21:33]and then we have a huge length of compressed rolling bookshelves.
[21:39]Because if you were not to have rolling bookshelves,
[21:41]you would have a room just even for fire code purposes
[21:45]that would be like, you know, a full floor
[21:47]of the New York Times building where we then keep the books
[21:50]when they're under consideration
[21:52]or when they've been selected for review.
[21:54]So there's like a complicated process that you have to go through.
[21:57]It's a huge amount of hearing open of envelopes and logging books
[22:03]into a database and then making sure
[22:06]that we keep the copies around.
[22:08]And then they are distributed to a staff
[22:11]of what we call preview editors who then each week will go through,
[22:15]let's say, 100 books and have to figure out, OK, you know,
[22:19]probably they have three preliminary files.
[22:22]Like, these ones, we're not going to do these ones.
[22:24]These ones, we're definitely going to do.
[22:26]Now, this group in the middle, I don't know if we're going to do,
[22:28]and they have to really go through those ones more carefully
[22:30]and determine, because it's hard.
[22:32]It's hard to say, like, if you have a history of the Civil War
[22:38]that comes in to say, is this new?
[22:40]Is this interesting?
[22:41]Is this an author?
[22:43]Are there new sources of material for this?
[22:45]Like, how do I make that judgment?
[22:47]And we're lucky to have, you know, the editor of our history books
[22:51]who's been there for 30 years who could say, you know,
[22:53]this is a rehash of a book this guy wrote 10 years ago,
[22:56]or there's no new scholarship in this,
[22:58]or this is not very well written, or he's left entire battles
[23:01]out, and this is basically the military history.
[23:04]You know, and those are things that, like, you know,
[23:06]if you just glance at it, you might not know.
[23:08]Or if you get, let's say, 20 books on Bitcoin in a month.
[23:13]Like, how do you determine this is the one that should be reviewed
[23:17]and the rest of these, it doesn't make sense for people
[23:20]to waste their time, or a novel,
[23:22]which I think is even harder.
[23:24]Let's say you have seven new short story collections coming
[23:27]out that month, one particular editor might get.
[23:30]How are you supposed to determine which one
[23:34]or two of those might get reviewed?
[23:36]Because we review about 1% of the books that come out in the United
[23:40]States in a given year.
[23:41]That's wild.
[23:43]Do you think?
[23:43]Yeah, it's not easy.
[23:44]I mean, that's just, oh my gosh, that's such a daunting task.
[23:48]I'm like stressed out, just thinking about it.
[23:50]Not that it's necessarily something you can analyze or, like,
[23:53]make some sort of formula about.
[23:55]But what do you think the ingredients are for fantastic books?
[23:59]Oh, I mean, it's really, it's very hard to generalize,
[24:03]even to say, you know, and I would say fiction has
[24:06]something different from nonfiction.
[24:09]Let's say let's say, let's say fiction.
[24:10]Let's take, let's take a note.
[24:11]All right.
[24:12]So I think with a novel, you know, there are things
[24:15]that, frankly, readers judge books on, are these characters
[24:19]interesting, are they credible?
[24:20]Are they fully fleshed out?
[24:22]Is this writer's voice arresting?
[24:24]Am I grabbed in the first page?
[24:27]And if I'm not, am I still sort of curious about it?
[24:30]You know, David Foster Wallace famously said that he
[24:33]purposefully made the first 200 pages of infinite just
[24:37]impossible to get through.
[24:39]That was kind of brutal.
[24:40]But if you got that, if you could get through that, then you kind
[24:42]of deserve to read the rest of the book.
[24:44]Now I'm not saying that's true for most books.
[24:46]But not every book grabs you from the first page.
[24:48]So is there something else there?
[24:49]Is there something in the perspective, in the sentences,
[24:53]in the voice of the writer?
[24:56]And then when you're considering it as a whole, like how
[24:59]coherent is narrative, is it doing something new and inventive?
[25:03]Or is this just a great, classically told,
[25:05]traditional, you know, dig in 19th century style novel?
[25:10]But is this subject matter something interesting, something
[25:13]we haven't seen before, something that's new or something
[25:16]that's old but undiscovered?
[25:18]You know, there's, there might be a novel that takes place
[25:22]in the early 20th century.
[25:23]But it's looking at, let's say, a period in history
[25:28]that from a perspective of, let's say, an African-American,
[25:32]or a Native American, or from a woman,
[25:34]or from some view that we haven't seen before.
[25:37]So there are a lot of ways to even take a subject matter
[25:39]that can feel old, but to look at it through a new lens,
[25:43]to do something that might be experimental or something
[25:47]that might feel really fresh.
[25:49]I mean, there's stories for us.
[25:50]You can, let's take Jenny Ossoil's book
[25:52]Department of Speculation, which was one of our conduct books
[25:55]I know about six years ago.
[25:57]And it's a story about marriage and about motherhood.
[26:00]And you can say there's nothing new about that subject.
[26:03]And yet, the way that she wrote that book,
[26:06]the way that she handled it, it just felt like electrifying
[26:09]at the time, the whole approach to those subjects
[26:14]felt really different.
[26:15]It was like Rachel Cask, another person
[26:18]who might write about things that we feel like we know
[26:20]if she wrote a book about new motherhood,
[26:22]she wrote a book about the aftermath of divorce.
[26:24]She's written books about sort of what it's like
[26:27]to be a middle age professional woman.
[26:28]And yet, in her voice, in her handling
[26:33]those subjects feel entirely new.
[26:34]Wow, that was so interesting.
[26:36]That was so interesting.
[26:37]Thank you.
[26:38]Tell me about, quickly, I know we were almost at a time.
[26:41]You're upcoming book, How to Raise a Reader.
[26:42]So this is a book that I co-wrote with our current children's
[26:45]books, Editor Maria Russo, which is coming out in September.
[26:49]And it started off as a digital guide for the New York Times.
[26:53]And that guide was also called How to Raise a Reader.
[26:56]And when we worked on it, it was like, I mean, as much as I
[27:00]love my job and I absolutely love my job,
[27:03]it was like a really fun, but also mission-driven break
[27:07]from the rest of the day.
[27:08]It was like, oh, good.
[27:09]We get to do this.
[27:10]And both of us felt incredibly energized by it
[27:13]because it was like, finally, we get to write about this thing
[27:17]that we both care so much about.
[27:20]So it came out and it was hugely popular online.
[27:23]Not something that you could actually print out.
[27:25]And we both thought, there's just, first of all,
[27:28]I think we had written about 20,000 words in the final guide
[27:30]ended up being 8,000 words.
[27:32]And so a lot of stuff had sort of ended up
[27:33]on the cutting room floor.
[27:35]And we felt like this stuff is really good.
[27:38]It deserves another life.
[27:39]And it's really important.
[27:40]And so we had this idea that we really
[27:43]wanted to turn this material into a book,
[27:46]that it felt like the book that had been missing,
[27:49]because nobody needs to know how to teach their child to read.
[27:56]In general, I mean, not nobody needs to know.
[27:58]Teachers need to know that.
[27:59]And parents need to know how to support that.
[28:01]They usually get that from the teacher.
[28:03]But how you actually get a kid to love reading?
[28:07]How do you have a child who gravitates toward a book
[28:12]when they have that board afternoon, as opposed to pick up
[28:16]an iPhone or do something else with their time?
[28:19]And I think, and I use that iPhone example,
[28:21]because I think that it's gotten especially
[28:23]more difficult in a digital age.
[28:25]When there are so many other distractions,
[28:27]there are so many other options.
[28:29]And I think it's hard for parents, because parents
[28:31]I'm like, what technology is really important.
[28:33]It's really important that my child be tech savvy.
[28:34]I think there's a lot of economic insecurity
[28:38]that is completely understandable about with parents.
[28:41]It's like, well, my child might need to do other things.
[28:44]They might need to go to a child lesson.
[28:45]They might need to play a sport they might need to home a talent
[28:50]with that time as opposed to reading.
[28:52]And yet, at the same time, I think most parents know
[28:55]that reading is essential.
[28:58]Not just for our child's academic sort of success,
[29:03]but really essential towards making a person whole.
[29:06]It's through immersion and stories
[29:11]that we, I think, become who we are.
[29:14]And I think that one of the reasons why books
[29:17]as a form, as a medium, the way of conveying a story
[29:21]is so much more powerful than a film or TV or YouTube video.
[29:27]And I like all of this thing.
[29:29]I don't really like the YouTube videos,
[29:30]but I do like up in there of cats.
[29:32]But I do like TV and movies.
[29:35]But here's the difference.
[29:36]When you are reading Harry Potter for the first time,
[29:40]and you let's hope have not seen the movie yet,
[29:43]any of the movies, you're thinking, what does Harry look like?
[29:47]What does Hermione sound like?
[29:49]What does Hogwarts seem like?
[29:52]What does the Gryffindale Hall look like?
[29:55]How do these paintings that move work?
[29:57]And you, as the reader, as the child reader,
[30:00]you're coming up with those images yourself.
[30:02]You're filling out that picture in your mind.
[30:04]You have cheeky rolling words to guide you,
[30:07]but when you read it's truly interactive,
[30:10]you are creating that story.
[30:12]That book is read by millions of people,
[30:14]but every single person reads it their own way,
[30:17]and that everything in that book looks differently.
[30:19]Sounds differently to each reader,
[30:21]because it's a reflection of who that person is.
[30:23]Stories, a book is not a book until it's read,
[30:28]and until it's read by an individual.
[30:30]Wear us with a movie, or a television show,
[30:33]while we all have our own opinions of it,
[30:37]we're being shown.
[30:38]We're being shown in a lot since rendition of Hermione.
[30:42]We're being shown the cinematographers,
[30:45]sweeping view of Hogwarts.
[30:47]We're being shown the special effects,
[30:51]you know, rendition of what a lot of could have
[30:54]or does to a person.
[30:56]We're hearing the score.
[30:58]All of that is being delivered to us,
[30:59]so we're not creating it.
[31:01]And I think that act of creation,
[31:05]that act of imagining,
[31:07]that sense of immersion is why books tend to stay with us
[31:12]for so long.
[31:13]It's why the books of our childhood stick with us for years.
[31:17]It's why we all kind of remember
[31:19]what was the book that made me become a reader.
[31:22]What was the book I wanted to hear again and again?
[31:25]What was that first novel,
[31:26]whether it was a wrinkle in time or Narnia,
[31:29]whatever it might have been?
[31:30]What was that book that, you know,
[31:32]I just wanted to be in that book.
[31:34]We all have those kinds of memories.
[31:37]And I think that when, as an adult,
[31:40]you want to have that for your child.
[31:42]So the idea of the book is not necessarily
[31:46]to help your child decode, you know,
[31:49]the fanatical terms and learn the mechanics of reading,
[31:53]as it is like, how do I, how does my child end up
[31:57]knowing that feeling, not getting that
[32:00]so that that stays with him or her for the rest of their lives?
[32:04]Well, and when does that come out?
[32:05]So that comes out beginning of September.
[32:07]Oh my gosh, I can't wait.
[32:09]Any parting advice to aspiring writers?
[32:11]Oh, aspiring writers.
[32:13]No, I was reading something last night.
[32:17]It was the editor's letter in P Magazine coming out on Sunday
[32:21]in the, was the editor's letter with Bijanya Agahara,
[32:25]who is not on the editor of T,
[32:27]but also a novelist in her own right.
[32:29]She wrote People in the Trees.
[32:30]Yes, of course.
[32:31]A little life.
[32:32]And she was saying that after a day of working
[32:36]in the office, she comes home and she writes at night
[32:38]because, you know, you have to actually do the work.
[32:43]You have to actually sit and write.
[32:45]And I agree with that, but I also think,
[32:48]for me, writing is something that I really want to do,
[32:53]that I enjoy doing, that I look for the time to do
[32:57]and that if they don't do it, I don't feel fulfilled.
[33:00]And I know that that's not the same for every writer.
[33:03]I know there are writers who have writers block
[33:04]and who find it difficult and who maybe don't enjoy it.
[33:07]But I would say to try to find at least for me,
[33:10]my advice is to kind of find the kind of writing
[33:12]that is feels like writing that you have to do.
[33:16]And not because you're supposed to,
[33:18]but because you want to, you know,
[33:19]like you need to do that writing
[33:21]and to figure out what that kind of writing is
[33:23]and go with that.
[33:24]Wow. Thank you so much.
[33:25]This was amazing insights and advice
[33:27]and just all of it was fantastic.
[33:29]Thank you so much for spending the time.
[33:31]Oh, thanks for having me.
[33:32]Of course.
[33:33]All right, take care.
[33:33]Bye-bye.
[33:34]You too.
[33:35]Bye.
[33:36]Today's episode was sponsored by cereal box.
[33:37]S-C-R-I-L-B-O-X dot com cereal box.com
[33:41]delivering addictive book content in short listen
[33:44]or read installments.
[33:45]Thanks to Ryan and Steve at texture sound
[33:48]for the audio editing and mixing.
[33:49]Thanks for listening to momstone
[33:51]have time to read books.