Hillary Frank, Author of WEIRD PARENTING WINS
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[0:27]Hillary, Frank, is the host creator and executive producer of award-winning podcasts The Long
[0:32]As Short as Time.
[0:33]She's a former contributor to this American life.
[0:36]The author and illustrated of three young adult novels, the view from the top, I can't tell
[0:40]you, and better than running at night.
[0:42]Her latest book is Weird Parenting Winds, Bathtub Dining, Family Screams, and Other Hacks
[0:47]from the Parenting Trenches.
[0:48]Her recent op-ed in The New York Times called the Special Misogyny Reserve from Mothers
[0:52]challenged the idea that motherhood issues were a niche topic.
[0:55]Her article, Having Kids Doesn't Mean You Have to Turn Boring on CNN.com gives mom's
[0:59]tips for breaking apart from the stereotypes.
[1:02]Hi, Hillary.
[1:03]Hi, how are you?
[1:04]Good, thanks.
[1:05]How are you?
[1:06]I'm good.
[1:07]Thanks so much for coming on momstone how time to read books.
[1:08]Yeah, no problem.
[1:09]So Weird Parenting Winds, amazing book.
[1:11]I got so many fantastic suggestions that I'm going to be implementing immediately with
[1:16]my four kids.
[1:18]Can you tell listeners what weird parenting wins is about?
[1:21]Yeah, so when I had my baby, I read a lot of books and I felt like the advice I was
[1:27]getting from experts was making me feel like a failure because a lot of this advice
[1:32]is written from a my way or the highway perspective and if it works for you great and
[1:37]if it doesn't, then I would feel like there was something wrong with me or something
[1:41]wrong with my kid and the thing that I discovered is that the stuff that was really working
[1:46]for me was stuff that I had invented myself, like out of trial and error, out of moments
[1:51]of desperation, or things that friends had shared with me.
[1:56]And so I did a call out on the longest shortest time website to see if other parents had
[2:01]similar experiences and we just got the most amazing responses and so many of them were
[2:06]hilarious.
[2:07]And it was things like, you know, a dad who takes notes in his baby's ear to get her
[2:12]to stop crying or parents who are charging their electric toothbrushes to conduct the
[2:19]baby to sleep like a white noise.
[2:23]And so I just thought like, oh, you know, like we should really trust the intuition
[2:27]of parents and I wanted to sort of create this book that was like a brain trust of the
[2:32]weird stuff that parents actually do to get their kids to do what they need them to do.
[2:36]It's so great.
[2:37]And I love how at the beginning of each chapter you sort of organize it by topic but
[2:40]then you have your own like hilarious little anecdotes and then you just go into all the
[2:44]quotes from all these different parents and it's like, immediately you just trust them
[2:49]because it's like what, you know, it's perfect, it's so actionable.
[2:52]What are some of your favorite parenting wins, some of the weird things that maybe you
[2:56]do with your kids?
[2:57]You're with Sasha.
[2:58]Yeah.
[2:59]So my favorite one is what's on my butt, which is a game that the mom Maggie created
[3:04]where she lies face down on the couch and tells her kid to fetch some object and put it
[3:10]on her butt and she has to guess what it is and the longer it takes to guess, the longer
[3:14]she gets to rest and the girl gets to feel like she's playing.
[3:18]So I've done that a lot with my daughter.
[3:21]That's genius.
[3:22]And my daughter also has like this habit of like him to show me what's in her mouth
[3:27]when she's eating at the table and I don't like to be a nag.
[3:31]Like it just gets annoying, you know, to have to always be like stop eating with your
[3:36]mouth open and so instead there's a suggestion that a parent had to do an elbow point.
[3:43]And so when the kid is chewing with their mouth open, you just sort of point your elbow
[3:48]at them and go elbow point and it becomes more of like a fun thing.
[3:53]I think some of my favorites.
[3:54]I love dinner in odd places where if you can, you can see you just run around and eat
[3:59]wherever.
[4:00]Another favorite.
[4:01]My kids used to be so scared of those automatic fleshers in public restrooms and one of
[4:05]the moms in the book suggested taping a panty liner over the sensor and so she carries
[4:09]the inner bag.
[4:10]That was awesome.
[4:11]I think I'm going to do that.
[4:12]Bringing balloons that weren't inflated into the airport and then blowing them up so you
[4:15]have something to play with.
[4:16]That was really great.
[4:17]I mean, there were like so many.
[4:19]I could have just like, I kept circling and like trying to remember to do all these things.
[4:23]Maffy pads have multiple uses too like they can be like stickers like when you need
[4:29]to answer emails.
[4:30]Your kid can like unwrap them out of the packages and like stick them on the walls and
[4:35]on the floor.
[4:36]Oh, perfect.
[4:37]And post it too.
[4:38]One of the suggestions is putting post it all over the house.
[4:40]Yeah.
[4:41]Maybe like a treasure hunt with post it so definitely I'm going to have to use that one.
[4:45]So your podcast, The Longest Shortest Time which is like one of the most successful
[4:49]amazing podcasts ever and you started it, you know, you were like totally at the forefront
[4:53]of this whole podcast, you know, not revolution but whatever a good word is movement.
[4:58]How did you start doing the podcast and then of course the podcast led into the book?
[5:03]So it was talk to me a little more about starting the podcast.
[5:06]So when I started the podcast, I had been working in radio for 10 years and when I had
[5:12]my baby, I like, you know, took some time out and I had had a rough child birth and recovery
[5:17]and so wasn't able to work for a while and I knew that technology was changing and I wanted
[5:23]to like keep my foot in the door and show people that I still had chops and so making
[5:27]a podcast was an easy way to do that and at that time the idea that you could make a podcast
[5:33]your job was kind of laughable.
[5:35]That wasn't the point of it for me.
[5:37]I was really just trying to make it my calling card and also because I had had this rough
[5:44]child birth and just moved to a new town, I didn't really know anybody and I wanted
[5:49]to connect with other moms who were willing to talk honestly about parenthood and talk
[5:56]about the kinds of struggles that you go through as a parent and I was having trouble
[6:02]meeting people who were like willing to talk honestly with me but I knew because of my experience
[6:08]as a radio reporter that if you stick a microphone under somebody's face they're more
[6:12]likely to open up to you and you also have license to ask them deeper questions and so
[6:19]I started this podcast as a way to connect with other parents and it was really like almost
[6:25]a selfish endeavor, it was like supposed to heal me and it did but the thing that like
[6:31]the side effect was that it also was really cathartic to other people and it started
[6:36]almost like this whole community like it developed pretty quickly and so what do you
[6:41]think are some of the things obviously great at the radio aspect with all of your background
[6:45]but some of the things that made the show just take off so much do you think it's the
[6:50]relatable aspect of the things you know just the confession like you were just talking
[6:54]about or do you think there were any specific things you did to like market the podcast
[6:59]or you know tactical things as well?
[7:02]Yeah I mean I think there are a lot of things I think in the storytelling I make the stories
[7:07]accessible to not just parents I make them like just compelling stories that I hope anyone
[7:16]would want to listen to for example you know we have a whole series on a transgender man
[7:22]who might not be getting pregnant and having a baby and there's a lot more to his story
[7:26]but that's been one of our most popular series and I know that there are people who listen
[7:31]to that who don't have kids and don't have any interest in having kids so there's
[7:35]that piece of it I also think that a lot of parenting media at least when I was starting
[7:40]my podcast almost all of it was designed to pit parents against each other like to choose
[7:47]sides of various parenting issues and a lot of it was really like issue based and even
[7:53]when we discuss issues like you know discrimination against working moms on the long
[7:59]short-time it's all story based and so that draws you in and makes it easier to like relate
[8:06]to other people who are not necessarily like you on the surface and then the other thing
[8:11]I did is I proved that the show could make money by inviting sponsors I hold call the
[8:20]bunch of sponsors and it was first starting the show in order to make a Kickstarter and
[8:26]I just reached out to brands that I thought were supportive of me when I was a new mother
[8:32]it was like stuff like diapers dot com and ergo baby and medilla and just hold called
[8:38]them and asked if they would support me in this Kickstarter and they had never supported
[8:43]a podcast before and almost all of them said yes because they believed in the mission
[8:48]of the show so there was a lot going on all at once that's awesome is there anything
[8:53]you wish you had known when you first started out now that you're such a veteran I don't
[8:58]know it's hard to say I mean I guess I wish I would have known that it was possible that
[9:03]it would last so long I guess I might have done some more like pre planning because I was
[9:08]just winging it as I was going but I think it's cool to hear how it evolved over time it's awesome
[9:15]so can we talk for two seconds about your recent New York Times article the special
[9:20]misogyny reserved for mothers which was amazing so in the article you know you show how no matter
[9:28]what mothers do it's somehow not almost not good enough almost like it's not newsy or it's not
[9:34]important or somehow it's it's just not it's really not as important but exactly yes I think
[9:41]we're belittled I guess that's a better word thank you once you become a mother I think that like
[9:48]a lot of stuff according to society like guess erased about you yeah so yeah did you have a
[9:55]question about it yeah no I just what made you write that piece was there a special was there
[10:00]certain trigger that led you to write that one.
[10:02]A lot of triggers.
[10:03]I mean, so I think I didn't put together
[10:06]that it was misogyny against mothers
[10:08]until a lot of stuff piled up.
[10:11]And as things would happen, I would be like,
[10:14]oh, that's weird.
[10:16]I've never, I've never been talked to you that way,
[10:18]but I just, I don't know, I just let it go.
[10:21]And then after a while, I looked at all of this stuff
[10:24]as a whole.
[10:25]And so the first thing that happened was,
[10:28]when I first made my podcast,
[10:30]it wasn't possible to make a living,
[10:31]just having a podcast.
[10:33]And so I had to get my pieces on the radio
[10:35]if I wanted to get paid for them.
[10:36]And so I had, you know, this decade-long experience
[10:40]working with public radio.
[10:42]And I never really had trouble getting stories on the air.
[10:46]And so I pitched a couple of my stories
[10:50]to this one outlet that I worked with a lot
[10:53]and my editor took the stories to the higher-ups.
[10:58]And we were trying to see if we could get like,
[11:01]an ongoing series on the radio,
[11:03]like as a segment, as a part of a larger show.
[11:06]And the response I got back was from my editor
[11:09]was that the higher-up said that I sounded like a little girl.
[11:12]And I was just like, well, that's so weird.
[11:15]Okay, I've never heard that before
[11:17]and I have kind of a deep voice, that's strange.
[11:19]And then over time, like, I discovered that the subject matter
[11:24]that I wanted to get on places wasn't being accepted.
[11:28]And I was being told that, like, the subject matter
[11:30]was too small.
[11:32]There was a story that I wanted to get on NPR
[11:36]about why moms were giving up on their sex lives
[11:40]and why more mothers didn't know about
[11:42]public-port physical therapy after childbirth injuries.
[11:46]And then, you know, there's the fact that insurance often
[11:50]doesn't cover public-port physical therapy.
[11:53]And so I wondered, like, does that make
[11:54]getting your sex life back a class issue?
[11:58]And I just seemed like really fertile ground
[12:01]for an interesting story of some kind.
[12:03]And the thing that I heard back was,
[12:06]you can't talk about sex on the radio.
[12:09]And later on, I thought about it some more.
[12:12]And it seemed like a real double standard
[12:14]because on NPR, there have been several stories
[12:17]about Viagra.
[12:18]And when you're talking about Viagra,
[12:20]you're talking about arousal.
[12:22]And when you're talking about childbirth injuries,
[12:24]you're talking about chronic pain.
[12:26]And it just felt to me like we were prioritizing
[12:29]one thing over the other.
[12:30]And so what can we do about it?
[12:33]I mean, I think the article was trying to do something about it.
[12:36]And I think it is stirring things up.
[12:39]I mean, I've been hearing from people
[12:41]who work in the business and saying, like, wow,
[12:44]this is making me rethink the ways that I've talked to other
[12:48]people in the past.
[12:49]I don't know how soon we'll see a move in the dial,
[12:52]but I also think that parenting media has changed a lot
[12:56]in the last eight to 10 years.
[12:59]There are more books now about the on varnish truth
[13:02]about motherhood.
[13:04]I think it's becoming more of like,
[13:06]it's coming out of the shadows.
[13:08]And so maybe the more we understand about it
[13:11]and the less we keep it secret,
[13:14]the more editors will want to air this stuff.
[13:18]Yeah, I think you're raising awareness to the whole issue
[13:20]is so key.
[13:21]Thank you.
[13:22]Mm-hmm.
[13:23]So you also write young, you've written young adult fiction
[13:27]several books.
[13:28]Yeah.
[13:28]Tell me about writing those.
[13:29]When did you start writing that?
[13:31]How do you fit that in with your life?
[13:33]How does writing combine with all your broadcast?
[13:37]When do you do everything?
[13:37]Like, how do you get it all done?
[13:38]I mean, things happen one at a time.
[13:40]I'm not doing it all at once.
[13:43]So I was a freelancer for those first 10 years of my career.
[13:49]And so I was reporting stories for public radio
[13:54]while writing books.
[13:56]But I take on one project at a time.
[13:58]Sometimes they overlap.
[13:59]But I was just sort of cobbling everything together
[14:03]at that time.
[14:04]And so I did three young adult novels,
[14:07]which I wrote and illustrated before my daughter was born.
[14:10]And the last one came out the year that she was born.
[14:13]And then I started the longest, shortest time.
[14:16]And I haven't written a novel since then.
[14:19]Do you want to write more books?
[14:21]Did you enjoy the process?
[14:22]I want to write.
[14:23]Yeah.
[14:23]Yeah.
[14:24]I want to write more.
[14:25]And I'm trying to figure out, I feel like I'm feeling a fiction
[14:29]at just recently.
[14:30]And I'm trying to figure out what to do with it.
[14:32]And did you enjoy the whole process of weird parenting wins?
[14:35]I loved it.
[14:36]Yeah.
[14:36]I mean, I love communicating with our listeners.
[14:40]And I love how much they surprise me and make me laugh
[14:45]and make me cry.
[14:47]So we got over 800 submissions for this book.
[14:51]And wound up using almost 350 of them.
[14:55]Wow.
[14:55]Yeah.
[14:55]So it was just like a pleasure to sort through these
[14:59]and figure out which ones were my favorites.
[15:01]And do you have any advice for aspiring authors
[15:05]and also podcasters?
[15:07]Yeah.
[15:07]Don't listen to anybody's rules.
[15:10]OK.
[15:10]Because I got where I am by breaking all of the rules
[15:15]especially if you're a woman.
[15:16]And especially if you're a mom, don't let anyone tell you
[15:20]your subject matter is too small.
[15:23]Or you're not going to be able to bring in enough money.
[15:26]If you believe that you can do it, go for it and prove them wrong.
[15:31]Love it.
[15:32]I feel like I should be beating my chest now.
[15:34]Like, that's awesome.
[15:36]And same thing for authors.
[15:38]What about people trying to write young adult fiction?
[15:40]I know there are a lot of people like that.
[15:41]So when I was starting out, I
[15:44]sent in a bunch of unsolicited submissions,
[15:47]including to this American life and then to a fiction editor.
[15:52]And I got many rejections before I got anything published.
[15:57]And I would get these personalized notes telling me why
[16:03]my stuff was getting rejected.
[16:05]And you should take, if you ever get those,
[16:07]take those as an extreme compliment
[16:10]and listen to the notes and incorporate them.
[16:13]And then in general, even if you're not getting that stuff,
[16:17]be open-minded when people give you notes
[16:20]because your first draft is never
[16:22]going to be your best draft.
[16:23]Excellent.
[16:24]So aside from your fiction, what else do you have coming next?
[16:29]That's right now.
[16:30]I'm just going on tour for a weird parenting
[16:34]wins.
[16:34]I'm going to go to a few different cities.
[16:36]And then I'm going to figure out
[16:38]how to scratch that fiction itch.
[16:40]And you're not coming to New York City, right?
[16:43]I couldn't find you on the-
[16:44]I'm coming to Brooklyn.
[16:46]OK.
[16:47]Yeah.
[16:47]Yeah.
[16:48]All right, I'll have to put it on the calendar.
[16:50]Well, thank you so much for talking to me today.
[16:53]I'm such a huge fan.
[16:54]And I'm so grateful for the value in my day-day life
[16:58]from your book.
[16:59]So thank you.
[17:00]Oh, thank you.
[17:01]Thanks so much.
[17:02]All right, thank you.
[17:02]Take care.
[17:03]Bye-bye.
[17:04]This episode has been sponsored by Bookhampton.com.
[17:08]Thanks to Ryan and Steve at Texture Sound
[17:10]for the audio editing and mixing.
[17:12]Thanks for listening to Momstone.
[17:13]Have time to read books.